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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,178

    Well. Labour whackos have cemented Patel in place for the next reshuffle.

    Is that what they intended?

    Well, given her generally dismal performance, you can’t say it would be a stupid move!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 37,151

    Nigelb said:
    Thats a bit of a lack of manners imo.
    Its a joke, its fake.
    Oh then a bit weird in making it up!
    I thought it was funny.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,273

    Nigelb said:
    Thats a bit of a lack of manners imo.
    Its a joke, its fake.
    Oh then a bit weird in making it up!
    I thought it was funny.
    right
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,945

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.

    No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
    Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.

    https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-britain/exhibition/art-under-attack-histories-british-iconoclasm/art-under-attack-1
    Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
    There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.

    'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
    Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
    Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.

    What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
    No I was referring to the iconoclastic period of Byzantine history, when the Byzantines smashed their own icons.

    https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/byzantine1/beginners-guide-byzantine/a/iconoclastic-controversies

    I clearly overestimated your knowledge of Byzantine history. My apologies.
    Oh? Here's your direct quote:

    'There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.'

    Since you referred explicitly to what Muhammed inflicted upon Mecca after capturing it, it wasn't crazy to assume that you intended a similar context when you referenced Byzantium.
    No, for someone without much knowledge of Byzantine art it is an understandable mistake, which is why I apologised.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,945
    sarissa said:

    Foxy said:

    Andrew said:

    We knew it was coming, but it's official .... excess deaths back to normal.


    Wouldn't we be surprised if we start to see below average levels, due to a lot of old people having dying a few months before they would due to covid or reduced medical coverage.

    We could end up with a situation where all those.using the excessive mortality numbers start going quiet / redefining their metric, after projecting excess mortality forward to get bigger numbers.
    It does seem to support that these were undiagnosed Covid-19 cases though. Other services remain quiet.
    There has also been l good number of missed or postponed appointments/treatments/tests which could have an effect later.
    I agree, but it would not account for the reversion to the mean of current excess deaths.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 3,775
    stodge said:


    Windows needed for Raceform Interactive and the like. Linux for analysis.

    I use the Racing Post, a pen and some paper.

    I might stand a better chance that way!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198
    Mango said:

    Scottish splits:

    Johnson -57
    Starmer +34

    So, a net Starmer lead of 91.

    Those Boris Johnson figures are fairly standard for Tory leaders among Scottish voters, and are actually slightly better than the worst May and Cameron depths.

    However, that Starmer +34 is truly outstanding! I cannot remember the last time a Unionist leader had such good Scottish ratings. Certainly not the over-hyped Ruth Davidson. You’d probably have to go back to Gordon Brown, Henry McLeish or Charlie Kennedy. And unlike Starmer, they were all Scots!

    Is Starmer the most popular Englishman in Scotland since... who?

    Peter Bonetti?
    😆

    I’d forgotten about him!

    Apparently, after he retired, he worked as a postman in Mull. He used to jog to the pub for a pint, and then jog 5 miles home again!

    (Yes, he was English, but two Swiss? parents?)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,117
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,077
    edited June 11
    62 UK officers injured in 'peaceful' protests so far:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/police-chiefs-act-black-lives-matter-protests-violence-a4466821.html


    But the protesters aren't just a danger to others, they're a danger to themselves too:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/virginia-black-lives-matter-protester-statue-injuries-a4466526.html

    'A Black Lives Matter protester was seriously injured when a toppled statue fell on his head and knocked him unconscious.'

    "There were individuals at the front, they were pulling and working at the legs for some time and trying to get it down," said the witness.

    "And there was a gentleman who was directly in front of the statue and when the statue finally did give way it came and fully hit him in the head.

    “You could see his skull was actually showing, he was convulsing on the ground."


    Maybe they could all just give it a rest for a while, for all our sakes.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 2,711

    Mango said:

    Scottish splits:

    Johnson -57
    Starmer +34

    So, a net Starmer lead of 91.

    Those Boris Johnson figures are fairly standard for Tory leaders among Scottish voters, and are actually slightly better than the worst May and Cameron depths.

    However, that Starmer +34 is truly outstanding! I cannot remember the last time a Unionist leader had such good Scottish ratings. Certainly not the over-hyped Ruth Davidson. You’d probably have to go back to Gordon Brown, Henry McLeish or Charlie Kennedy. And unlike Starmer, they were all Scots!

    Is Starmer the most popular Englishman in Scotland since... who?

    Peter Bonetti?
    😆

    I’d forgotten about him!

    Apparently, after he retired, he worked as a postman in Mull. He used to jog to the pub for a pint, and then jog 5 miles home again!

    (Yes, he was English, but two Swiss? parents?)
    Died 12 April this year ("long illness" not covid).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 2,711

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
    Not surprising, is it? I doubt there are many inscriptions owning up to that.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,077
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.

    No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
    Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.

    https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-britain/exhibition/art-under-attack-histories-british-iconoclasm/art-under-attack-1
    Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
    There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.

    'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
    Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
    Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.

    What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
    No I was referring to the iconoclastic period of Byzantine history, when the Byzantines smashed their own icons.

    https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/byzantine1/beginners-guide-byzantine/a/iconoclastic-controversies

    I clearly overestimated your knowledge of Byzantine history. My apologies.
    Oh? Here's your direct quote:

    'There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.'

    Since you referred explicitly to what Muhammed inflicted upon Mecca after capturing it, it wasn't crazy to assume that you intended a similar context when you referenced Byzantium.
    No, for someone without much knowledge of Byzantine art it is an understandable mistake, which is why I apologised.
    Not my period, as they say. Good thing they didn't smash all their art though, otherwise no one would know a damned thing about it, including you...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,178
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
    Not surprising, is it? I doubt there are many inscriptions owning up to that.
    If Corbyn ever does have a statue put up, what could be put on the inscription?

    Well, unlike the proposed rewritten description for Colston (both sorts) it needn’t include slaving. After all, he’s never done that.

    How about, ‘This is a man who led the Labour Party to become the most racist mainstream party in Britain. His defence was he was present, but not involved.’

    And having thoroughly trolled all fellow travellers of Rachel from Swindon - good night.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942

    ydoethur said:

    You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
    Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.

    The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.

    Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
    Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
    Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
    Do you mind if I ask how?

    I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
    JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
    That isn't quite how I remember it.
    And that *is* exactly how I remember it. We had a very big argument about this interview when it happened. To me he seems regretful but not condemnatory. He is not (in my mind) lamenting an absence of common sense in those who stayed, but the fact that official advice lead them to override it. It was a horrible, horrible, maddening situation, and he's expressing horror. We have ample examples of JRM sneering at lesser mortals every week - this doesn't appear to me to be one of those times.
    Why did he make an abject apology, was he giving in to the mob that PBers are always going on about?
    Yes. I think discretion was the better part of valour. When feelings run so high, once the narrative was abroad that the sneering Tory posh man had said the residents of Grenfell lacked common sense, there was no amount of explanation that would have reversed it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,117
    edited June 11
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
    Not surprising, is it? I doubt there are many inscriptions owning up to that.
    Missed opportunity imo. A parable has some social value, marketing the good bits of someone while excising the shitty bits not so much.

    It's not as if there aren't precedents, we were taught Amazing Grace at primary school with the associated tale of its author.The story of a reformed slaver writing one of our more recognisable hymns always stuck with me.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 20,318
    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,398
    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 15,284

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I sometimes wonder if I’m a classical liberal, libertarian or a bit of a secret radical.

    However, I keep coming back to the fact I’m really a conservative. There are one-nation Conservatives like David Herdson and DavidL, liberal Conservatives like TSE and praetorian Thatcherites like HD2.

    I am basically a shire Tory. It’s why I always had a soft spot for David Cameron, despite getting very frustrated with him at times.

    I don't know if this helps but I can tell you that Toby Young self-identifies very strongly as a "classical liberal". Indeed it used to be the rather stark strap-line on his Twitter profile. Toby Young. Classical Liberal - Just that.

    But not anymore. It now says "General Secretary of the Free Speech Union."

    Which means he won't mind me saying all this. Or even if he does mind he would defend to the death my right to do so.
    I’ve now joined the Free Speech Union after my experiences of the last week.
    Fair enough. Although I have not noticed you struggling in this department. You always seem to speak your mind. Although of course only you can know if this is really true.
    I do. It's the protection (verbal and legal) it offers in case I get witch-hunted.

    I don't find accusations of racism funny - it's a move I made to protect myself.
    Well based on what you post on here, I don't think you have anything to fear and you are being a touch "precious".

    But it's OK. We're ALL precious in the eyes of the lord. :smile:
    The accusation of racism alone is enough to lose one's job, and it's a short step from there to doxxing. It was one very regular poster on here (who's met me) that drove me to this; he still hasn't fully apologised.

    Unlike some very public posters on here I don't have the security of income or career to take that risk.
    One of my most cherished dreams is that the Conservatives could be driven to enshrine a version of the First Amendment in law - call it the Freedom of Speech Act, perhaps. It's not too late, and my God do we need it...
    You seem to be describing freedom of consequence.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 15,284
    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 20,318
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
    It's the next 7 years of gaming.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,469
    Social media = mob rule.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,945

    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much

    Yep, a pretty grim day for equity holders. We are going to see more volatility in the recovery phase, I expect.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,077
    Alistair said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I sometimes wonder if I’m a classical liberal, libertarian or a bit of a secret radical.

    However, I keep coming back to the fact I’m really a conservative. There are one-nation Conservatives like David Herdson and DavidL, liberal Conservatives like TSE and praetorian Thatcherites like HD2.

    I am basically a shire Tory. It’s why I always had a soft spot for David Cameron, despite getting very frustrated with him at times.

    I don't know if this helps but I can tell you that Toby Young self-identifies very strongly as a "classical liberal". Indeed it used to be the rather stark strap-line on his Twitter profile. Toby Young. Classical Liberal - Just that.

    But not anymore. It now says "General Secretary of the Free Speech Union."

    Which means he won't mind me saying all this. Or even if he does mind he would defend to the death my right to do so.
    I’ve now joined the Free Speech Union after my experiences of the last week.
    Fair enough. Although I have not noticed you struggling in this department. You always seem to speak your mind. Although of course only you can know if this is really true.
    I do. It's the protection (verbal and legal) it offers in case I get witch-hunted.

    I don't find accusations of racism funny - it's a move I made to protect myself.
    Well based on what you post on here, I don't think you have anything to fear and you are being a touch "precious".

    But it's OK. We're ALL precious in the eyes of the lord. :smile:
    The accusation of racism alone is enough to lose one's job, and it's a short step from there to doxxing. It was one very regular poster on here (who's met me) that drove me to this; he still hasn't fully apologised.

    Unlike some very public posters on here I don't have the security of income or career to take that risk.
    One of my most cherished dreams is that the Conservatives could be driven to enshrine a version of the First Amendment in law - call it the Freedom of Speech Act, perhaps. It's not too late, and my God do we need it...
    You seem to be describing freedom of consequence.
    Quite so. I'd have a single proviso: 'Except in the case of such speech that in the judgement of a reasonable person would lead directly to physical harm to another person or damage to property, all speech is permitted and free of legal sanction'.

    A British First Amendment. Maybe it'll catch on one day.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
    It's the next 7 years of gaming.
    I hate Sony consoles. Never forgiven them for destroying Sega's home console run. Nasty crappy company. Built in obsolescence in all their crappy products. Crap.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,945
    I see voter suppression is coming along nicely in Georgia.



    Is it any surprise that folk get angry?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370

    MattW said:

    Hmmm.

    Gandhi has made the statue-haters target list.

    image

    Gandhi a racist? I thought he successfully led 500 million BAME people to independence from the Evil Colonial Jackboot??
    More than one thing can be true
    That is certainly so, and it's also why the drive to eradicate memorials and images of past figures is an overly simplistic goal, when people did some bad things, but also some (or even many) great things. Not everyone will be as simple a judgement as being a slaver of course, but the purists treat the truth of someone having a bad fact in their backstory as the only thing that matters.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 2,711

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
    Not surprising, is it? I doubt there are many inscriptions owning up to that.
    Missed opportunity imo. A parable has some social value, marketing the good bits of someone while excising the shitty bits not so much.

    It's not as if there aren't precedents, we were taught Amazing Grace at primary school with the associated tale of its author.The story of a reformed slaver writing one of our more recognisable hymns always stuck with me.
    That's fair considering the statue was so long after the event.

    Interesting to look at the history of the RAC - founded by the Duke of York before he became James II so a bit like Leopold and the Congo. Pepys was a shareholder.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_African_Company
  • stodgestodge Posts: 7,092
    Foxy said:

    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much

    Yep, a pretty grim day for equity holders. We are going to see more volatility in the recovery phase, I expect.
    I mentioned earlier there was an article on the Bannons website which argued the rally in equities was driven by individuals and institutions who had a lot of cash that was earning no interest anywhere so the stock market became the place to invest.

    In essence, stock markets are now casinos.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942

    62 UK officers injured in 'peaceful' protests so far:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/police-chiefs-act-black-lives-matter-protests-violence-a4466821.html


    But the protesters aren't just a danger to others, they're a danger to themselves too:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/virginia-black-lives-matter-protester-statue-injuries-a4466526.html

    'A Black Lives Matter protester was seriously injured when a toppled statue fell on his head and knocked him unconscious.'

    "There were individuals at the front, they were pulling and working at the legs for some time and trying to get it down," said the witness.

    "And there was a gentleman who was directly in front of the statue and when the statue finally did give way it came and fully hit him in the head.

    “You could see his skull was actually showing, he was convulsing on the ground."


    Maybe they could all just give it a rest for a while, for all our sakes.

    One feels it's what the statue would have wanted.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 14,559
    Foxy said:

    I see voter suppression is coming along nicely in Georgia.



    Is it any surprise that folk get angry?
    In America? No.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,273
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
    Not surprising, is it? I doubt there are many inscriptions owning up to that.
    Missed opportunity imo. A parable has some social value, marketing the good bits of someone while excising the shitty bits not so much.

    It's not as if there aren't precedents, we were taught Amazing Grace at primary school with the associated tale of its author.The story of a reformed slaver writing one of our more recognisable hymns always stuck with me.
    That's fair considering the statue was so long after the event.

    Interesting to look at the history of the RAC - founded by the Duke of York before he became James II so a bit like Leopold and the Congo. Pepys was a shareholder.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_African_Company
    Did they have cars then?
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,069
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much

    Yep, a pretty grim day for equity holders. We are going to see more volatility in the recovery phase, I expect.
    I mentioned earlier there was an article on the Bannons website which argued the rally in equities was driven by individuals and institutions who had a lot of cash that was earning no interest anywhere so the stock market became the place to invest.

    In essence, stock markets are now casinos.
    If that's how you treat them, that's how they'll be. They're innate.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,567
    Guy's Hospital to remove statues.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8412093/Guys-hospital-London-remove-statues-slave-trading-benefactor.html

    Guy managed to dump his shares in The South Sea Company in good time at a good price.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 7,092
    alterego said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much

    Yep, a pretty grim day for equity holders. We are going to see more volatility in the recovery phase, I expect.
    I mentioned earlier there was an article on the Bannons website which argued the rally in equities was driven by individuals and institutions who had a lot of cash that was earning no interest anywhere so the stock market became the place to invest.

    In essence, stock markets are now casinos.
    If that's how you treat them, that's how they'll be. They're innate.
    It also means they cease to bear any resemblance to what is actually happening in the wider economy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Good God. Patel should save that letter, could come in handy at a leaders debate at the next election.
    Gaslighting? Oh dear.
    Desperately poor the way they've conflated the US and UK police there.
    Intentional, no doubt. Makes the fight more righteous, and only at the cost of undermining it by misrepresenting it.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,144
    edited June 11

    Labour's letter just been brought up and Hancock deplores the letter

    Starmer is going to have a real problem with the remnants of the Corbynista's in his party

    Different face on the album cover, but the songs inside still sound the same.

    This quote from Jezza is demonstrably false anyway; the Tory BAMEs include the Home Sec and CotE, and, apart from Lammy, the Labour ones have all got some crappy non job in the ShadCab at best

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    ydoethur said:

    You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
    Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.

    The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.

    Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
    I'm curious if there is any hard evidence of local associations being worse at picking candidates than central offices, so we can know who to blame in both parties.

    My default assumption is the local members with too much power are a huge problem for parties, which is weird as there's no shortage of great elected representatives of all party stripes.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 36,008
    I'd say yes to the round of golf with Donald Trump. For the bantz.

    I could dine off the anecdotes from that at parties for the rest of my life.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 31,884

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
    It's the next 7 years of gaming.
    I hate Sony consoles. Never forgiven them for destroying Sega's home console run. Nasty crappy company. Built in obsolescence in all their crappy products. Crap.
    I loved the Dreamcast. Ultimately, though, the Sega Saturn was nowhere near as good a console as the PlayStation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    isam said:

    Labour's letter just been brought up and Hancock deplores the letter

    Starmer is going to have a real problem with the remnants of the Corbynista's in his party

    Different face on the album cover, but the songs inside still sound the same.

    This quote from Jezza is demonstrably false anyway; the Tory BAMEs include the Home Sec and CotE, and, apart from Lammy, the Labour ones have all got some crappy non job in the ShadCab at best

    That tweet was hilarious.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
    It will also have bigger numbers than the last one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,945
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much

    Yep, a pretty grim day for equity holders. We are going to see more volatility in the recovery phase, I expect.
    I mentioned earlier there was an article on the Bannons website which argued the rally in equities was driven by individuals and institutions who had a lot of cash that was earning no interest anywhere so the stock market became the place to invest.

    In essence, stock markets are now casinos.
    I try to invest by fundamentals, rather than guess the next bubble. I am not expecting to cash out for some years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
    I'm sure plenty of philanthropists through their actions did not universally love their fellow man. Some dislike modern billionaire philanthropists on the basis they scewed an awful lot of people to get to that position. Admittedly few will have been as contradictory as a slaver who also did charitable works for the 'right' people, though some will have benefited from slave (or near slave) labour even today.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Isn't the point was that there was no mention of his slave trading? Afaik the original plaque only referred to Colston's virtue and wisdom which is an epic bit of varnishing.
    Not surprising, is it? I doubt there are many inscriptions owning up to that.
    Missed opportunity imo. A parable has some social value, marketing the good bits of someone while excising the shitty bits not so much.

    It's not as if there aren't precedents, we were taught Amazing Grace at primary school with the associated tale of its author.The story of a reformed slaver writing one of our more recognisable hymns always stuck with me.
    Though the wrinkle is that John Newton wrote Amazing Grace in 1772. He only became an outspoken abolitionist in 1788, when he published "Thoughts Upon The Slave Trade". Francis Spufford's book "Unapolagetic" makes the plausible case that the hymn came first, and it was thinking through the consequences of the hymn that led to his role in the abolition of slavery.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,469
    O/T

    New Geoff Marshall video.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 36,008
    Here's a prediction: hundreds of statues will (indiscriminately) come down and dozens of popular, if slightly dated shows, will be pulled or banned causing great bitterness.

    Precisely nothing will change for the life chances of black people, and we'll all be going through this again in four years time again the next time a US cop kills a black man.

    Only it will be even more crazed and deluded then.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,144
    edited June 11
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    New Geoff Marshall video.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=bykaHNVYflk

    I loved his video on Upminster Bridge - the least used District Line station (and the place where I smoked my first cigarette, in the waiting room on the way home from school in 1989)

    The "Bridge" is the least inspiring bridge in London, maybe even the UK. I had walked over it hundreds of times without realising it was there
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,895
    Alistair said:


    It will be a games console.

    Well, now you ruined the surprise for me.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
    It's the next 7 years of gaming.
    I hate Sony consoles. Never forgiven them for destroying Sega's home console run. Nasty crappy company. Built in obsolescence in all their crappy products. Crap.
    I loved the Dreamcast. Ultimately, though, the Sega Saturn was nowhere near as good a console as the PlayStation.
    The PS2 was the king of consoles. It essentially perfected controller design as well.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    PS5 reveal in 2 mins, on YouTube.

    It will be a games console.
    It's the next 7 years of gaming.
    I hate Sony consoles. Never forgiven them for destroying Sega's home console run. Nasty crappy company. Built in obsolescence in all their crappy products. Crap.
    I loved the Dreamcast. Ultimately, though, the Sega Saturn was nowhere near as good a console as the PlayStation.
    :lol: If you get me going on this topic, it would would make my posting about politics seem positively monosyllabic.

    The Saturn was a console with very complex processing architecture. Very few development teams (most but not all within Sega itself) ever managed to create game engines that got the most out of the hardware. Games had to be made for it from the ground up, and as Playstation grew in popularity, what it got was poor ports of Playstation games. It was a tough time to be a Sega fan. However, there were some classic games on that console, which I'm glad I was around for.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,077
    dr_spyn said:

    Guy's Hospital to remove statues.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8412093/Guys-hospital-London-remove-statues-slave-trading-benefactor.html

    Guy managed to dump his shares in The South Sea Company in good time at a good price.

    Incredible. They should change their name to '... and St. Thomas' Hospital', the craven fools.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942
    I didn't realise the BBC owned UKTV - you learn something new every day.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited June 11
    I was astonished a few years ago when they broadcast that one unedited. Can't remember which channel it was- perhaps UKTV.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,144
    philiph said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
    I'm sure plenty of philanthropists through their actions did not universally love their fellow man. Some dislike modern billionaire philanthropists on the basis they scewed an awful lot of people to get to that position. Admittedly few will have been as contradictory as a slaver who also did charitable works for the 'right' people, though some will have benefited from slave (or near slave) labour even today.
    The materialistic obsession that consumes western culture, the insatiable desire for cheap clothing, tat, televisions etc is very often the west living off exploitation of third world workers.

    We are not a lot better than our reviled ancestors.
    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    Wonder how Cyclefree feels about this opinion when it's coming from a woman?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,117
    There's some talk of removing or moving Welligton's statue in Glasgow which means that there's now the prospect of woke, indy supporting Glaswegians demanding it stays as a canvas for Glasgow's gallus spirit while staunch Yoon types want it removed to a place of greater safety to escape the disrespect.

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,206
    isam said:

    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?

    It would do wonders for the UK garment industry. If, for example, Bangladeshi garment workers had to be paid the British minimum wage for clothes sold in Britain, then the competitive advantages of offshoring the manufacture of clothes would be removed. Might as well make them in the UK again and dispense with the costs of shipping them halfway round the world.

    Of course, it would also make the clothes a lot more expensive and serve to highlight just how hard up, relative to the UK average, a lot of families in this country really are. The news for them would be that formerly cheap clothes from the likes of Primark or the local supermarket would now be priced at mid-market level, so if you want something new to wear you probably can't afford it anymore. Instead, it's an exciting opportunity to rummage through other peoples' castoffs in the charity shops.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,538
    edited June 11
    isam said:

    philiph said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
    I'm sure plenty of philanthropists through their actions did not universally love their fellow man. Some dislike modern billionaire philanthropists on the basis they scewed an awful lot of people to get to that position. Admittedly few will have been as contradictory as a slaver who also did charitable works for the 'right' people, though some will have benefited from slave (or near slave) labour even today.
    The materialistic obsession that consumes western culture, the insatiable desire for cheap clothing, tat, televisions etc is very often the west living off exploitation of third world workers.

    We are not a lot better than our reviled ancestors.
    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?
    No, but you would pay £120 for a shirt.
    edit: it's also hard to know in the rag trade if the Made in X-labelled shirt is really from cheaper country Y.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942
    edited June 11

    There's some talk of removing or moving Welligton's statue in Glasgow which means that there's now the prospect of woke, indy supporting Glaswegians demanding it stays as a canvas for Glasgow's gallus spirit while staunch Yoon types want it removed to a place of greater safety to escape the disrespect.

    No way would unionists want it moved! Any who do need a proper sense of humour bypass - I'll believe it when I see it. Perhaps Glasgow will be where wokism finally gets told to fuck off.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,026
  • isamisam Posts: 33,144



    Wonder how Cyclefree feels about this opinion when it's coming from a woman?
    Didn't they used to do the dancing on Top of the Pops?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 6,469

    I was astonished a few years ago when they broadcast that one unedited. Can't remember which channel it was- perhaps UKTV.
    Why does it need to be edited?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,077
    Andy_JS said:

    I was astonished a few years ago when they broadcast that one unedited. Can't remember which channel it was- perhaps UKTV.
    Why does it need to be edited?
    In case a snowflake saw it and melted.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,026

    I was astonished a few years ago when they broadcast that one unedited. Can't remember which channel it was- perhaps UKTV.
    I think I last watched it on Netflix.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 12,810

    I'd say yes to the round of golf with Donald Trump. For the bantz.

    I could dine off the anecdotes from that at parties for the rest of my life.

    You'll need eyes in the back of your head. He cheats.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    philiph said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
    I'm sure plenty of philanthropists through their actions did not universally love their fellow man. Some dislike modern billionaire philanthropists on the basis they scewed an awful lot of people to get to that position. Admittedly few will have been as contradictory as a slaver who also did charitable works for the 'right' people, though some will have benefited from slave (or near slave) labour even today.
    The materialistic obsession that consumes western culture, the insatiable desire for cheap clothing, tat, televisions etc is very often the west living off exploitation of third world workers.

    We are not a lot better than our reviled ancestors.
    We're quite contradictory, in that are (in our eyes) clearly better in some ways, not as much better as we'd like to think in plenty of others, yet also don't give ourselves credit for where things are better, or society better, in several others.
  • anotherex_toryanotherex_tory Posts: 166
    CatMan said:
    So many cards: all the cards in fact. They're just facing the wrong way.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,567
    Twitter on historical felon's nicknames in a roll of court cases.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 17,637
    philiph said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
    I'm sure plenty of philanthropists through their actions did not universally love their fellow man. Some dislike modern billionaire philanthropists on the basis they scewed an awful lot of people to get to that position. Admittedly few will have been as contradictory as a slaver who also did charitable works for the 'right' people, though some will have benefited from slave (or near slave) labour even today.
    The materialistic obsession that consumes western culture, the insatiable desire for cheap clothing, tat, televisions etc is very often the west living off exploitation of third world workers.

    We are not a lot better than our reviled ancestors.
    Living off exploited workers of third world workers and damaging the environment.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,026



    Wonder how Cyclefree feels about this opinion when it's coming from a woman?
    Yo, Emma! So if I say that "I is white" does that make me white?

    :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370
    edited June 11
    dr_spyn said:

    Twitter on historical felon's nicknames in a roll of court cases.

    Better than Half-cocked Jack from Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle
  • isam said:

    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?

    It would do wonders for the UK garment industry. If, for example, Bangladeshi garment workers had to be paid the British minimum wage for clothes sold in Britain, then the competitive advantages of offshoring the manufacture of clothes would be removed. Might as well make them in the UK again and dispense with the costs of shipping them halfway round the world.

    Of course, it would also make the clothes a lot more expensive and serve to highlight just how hard up, relative to the UK average, a lot of families in this country really are. The news for them would be that formerly cheap clothes from the likes of Primark or the local supermarket would now be priced at mid-market level, so if you want something new to wear you probably can't afford it anymore. Instead, it's an exciting opportunity to rummage through other peoples' castoffs in the charity shops.
    There's an important question here. For most of us, if our clothes cost twice as much and we kept them for twice as long, would we really be worse off?
  • isamisam Posts: 33,144
    Scott_xP said:
    If anyone wants a referendum called, won, then implemented, give him a call?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,567
    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.

    Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -

    Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.

    Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?

    Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
    A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.

    But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
    Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
    Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
    I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
    I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.

    I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example

    As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
    Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
    I'm sure plenty of philanthropists through their actions did not universally love their fellow man. Some dislike modern billionaire philanthropists on the basis they scewed an awful lot of people to get to that position. Admittedly few will have been as contradictory as a slaver who also did charitable works for the 'right' people, though some will have benefited from slave (or near slave) labour even today.
    The materialistic obsession that consumes western culture, the insatiable desire for cheap clothing, tat, televisions etc is very often the west living off exploitation of third world workers.

    We are not a lot better than our reviled ancestors.
    We're quite contradictory, in that are (in our eyes) clearly better in some ways, not as much better as we'd like to think in plenty of others, yet also don't give ourselves credit for where things are better, or society better, in several others.
    Apart from the clean water, the literacy and numeracy what has the modern world done for us? (crosses arms).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 23,091

    There's some talk of removing or moving Welligton's statue in Glasgow which means that there's now the prospect of woke, indy supporting Glaswegians demanding it stays as a canvas for Glasgow's gallus spirit while staunch Yoon types want it removed to a place of greater safety to escape the disrespect.

    Very poor mask technique.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 47,680
    Don't mention the don't mention the war episode.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 33,320
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If anyone wants a referendum called, won, then implemented, give him a call?
    A referendum to make Trump President for life and cancel the November election?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 954
    Andy_JS said:

    I was astonished a few years ago when they broadcast that one unedited. Can't remember which channel it was- perhaps UKTV.
    Why does it need to be edited?
    John Cleese kneels on Manuel's neck for over 8 minutes.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942

    isam said:

    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?

    It would do wonders for the UK garment industry. If, for example, Bangladeshi garment workers had to be paid the British minimum wage for clothes sold in Britain, then the competitive advantages of offshoring the manufacture of clothes would be removed. Might as well make them in the UK again and dispense with the costs of shipping them halfway round the world.

    Of course, it would also make the clothes a lot more expensive and serve to highlight just how hard up, relative to the UK average, a lot of families in this country really are. The news for them would be that formerly cheap clothes from the likes of Primark or the local supermarket would now be priced at mid-market level, so if you want something new to wear you probably can't afford it anymore. Instead, it's an exciting opportunity to rummage through other peoples' castoffs in the charity shops.
    Or sew it. Or knit it. Or mend it, darn it. It's going back to olden times basically. Which has its appeal, but I don't think people would like. I don't think I would like it either.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,370



    Wonder how Cyclefree feels about this opinion when it's coming from a woman?
    Yo, Emma! So if I say that "I is white" does that make me white?

    :lol:
    I don't think transracialism has caught on in a big way yet despite a few notable attempted examples. The next big awakening?

    I guess for now it's only gender which is allowed to be chosen.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,117

    There's some talk of removing or moving Welligton's statue in Glasgow which means that there's now the prospect of woke, indy supporting Glaswegians demanding it stays as a canvas for Glasgow's gallus spirit while staunch Yoon types want it removed to a place of greater safety to escape the disrespect.

    No way would unionists want it moved! Any who do need a proper sense of humour bypass - I'll believe it when I see it. Perhaps Glasgow will be where wokism finally gets told to fuck off.
    I'm confused, do you want the Black Power traffic cones encouraged or told to fuck off?

    In fact it was the staunchly Unionist Labour Glasgow Council that had a cherrypicker on call to remove the traffic ones, and at one point had plans to raise the plinth by 20 ft to discourage further disrespect. I can't disagree that they were humourless twats.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,026
    Scott_xP said:
    "Shock cock"! Must be a spoof account.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,345

    CatMan said:
    So many cards: all the cards in fact. They're just facing the wrong way.
    Does this mean we will get my wife's meds on time?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 23,091
    dr_spyn said:

    Twitter on historical felon's nicknames in a roll of court cases.

    Possibly you’d be more concerned about the death sentence.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,942

    Andy_JS said:

    I was astonished a few years ago when they broadcast that one unedited. Can't remember which channel it was- perhaps UKTV.
    Why does it need to be edited?
    In case a snowflake saw it and melted.
    Basil is shocked he's being looked after by a black doctor. Those scenes are quite racist in a 'Love thy neighbour' vein. And aren't very funny.

    But just add a warning surely? It is quite obvious the series is filmed in the 1970's and is of its time. For the most part, it's still an extremely funny show.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,521
    Foxy said:

    Dow down 6.8% - S and P down 5.82% - European futures down over 6.00%

    Not at all surprised, I was only surprised they had risen so much

    Yep, a pretty grim day for equity holders. We are going to see more volatility in the recovery phase, I expect.
    Meh, you can only lose money by selling on days like this
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 231

    "shocking statistics show contact tracers could only get information from 67 per cent of them (5,407).

    Hundreds did not respond to phone calls or refused to give details of people they had been in contact with"

    (Mail)

    Is this partly people worried they will be prosecuted for being with people they shouldn't under lockdown?

    Maybe say no one will be prosecuted based on any info from contact tracing?

    Maybe it isn't the prosecution they are worried about...

    That was higher than I was expecting to be honest.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,945
    edited June 11
    RobD said:

    Don't mention the don't mention the war episode.
    I know nothing...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,345
    Honestly, I really thought 2020 could not get any more bonkers.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 954

    "shocking statistics show contact tracers could only get information from 67 per cent of them (5,407).

    Hundreds did not respond to phone calls or refused to give details of people they had been in contact with"

    (Mail)

    Is this partly people worried they will be prosecuted for being with people they shouldn't under lockdown?

    Maybe say no one will be prosecuted based on any info from contact tracing?

    Maybe it isn't the prosecution they are worried about...

    That was higher than I was expecting to be honest.
    yeah, I looked at that data from the first week of it and thought "solid start, room for improvement"
  • isamisam Posts: 33,144

    isam said:

    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?

    It would do wonders for the UK garment industry. If, for example, Bangladeshi garment workers had to be paid the British minimum wage for clothes sold in Britain, then the competitive advantages of offshoring the manufacture of clothes would be removed. Might as well make them in the UK again and dispense with the costs of shipping them halfway round the world.

    Of course, it would also make the clothes a lot more expensive and serve to highlight just how hard up, relative to the UK average, a lot of families in this country really are. The news for them would be that formerly cheap clothes from the likes of Primark or the local supermarket would now be priced at mid-market level, so if you want something new to wear you probably can't afford it anymore. Instead, it's an exciting opportunity to rummage through other peoples' castoffs in the charity shops.
    There's an important question here. For most of us, if our clothes cost twice as much and we kept them for twice as long, would we really be worse off?
    We'd be morally better off if we paid the slave labour we keep out of sight the going rate
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,077

    Honestly, I really thought 2020 could not get any more bonkers.

    Well, you've really gone and done it now! :dizzy:

    Alien invasion by October?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,521
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Would it be impossible to implement some kind of law that said that if a product is sold in a country, the workers who made it must be paid that country's minimum wage?

    It would do wonders for the UK garment industry. If, for example, Bangladeshi garment workers had to be paid the British minimum wage for clothes sold in Britain, then the competitive advantages of offshoring the manufacture of clothes would be removed. Might as well make them in the UK again and dispense with the costs of shipping them halfway round the world.

    Of course, it would also make the clothes a lot more expensive and serve to highlight just how hard up, relative to the UK average, a lot of families in this country really are. The news for them would be that formerly cheap clothes from the likes of Primark or the local supermarket would now be priced at mid-market level, so if you want something new to wear you probably can't afford it anymore. Instead, it's an exciting opportunity to rummage through other peoples' castoffs in the charity shops.
    There's an important question here. For most of us, if our clothes cost twice as much and we kept them for twice as long, would we really be worse off?
    We'd be morally better off if we paid the slave labour we keep out of sight the going rate
    They are paid the going rate for where they live. If you imposed a minimum wage of 4 or 5 times the going rate, they'd all just be unemployed which is much better.
This discussion has been closed.