What's this thing of calling Keir Starmer 'Keith'? It's not as if he's hiding his real first name for whatever purpose (Gideon Osborne, Alexander Johnson etc.). I'm trying to understand the satire here.
I noticed PB Tories doing it, I can only assume that it's what passes for cutting edge humour in Tory circles.
Perhaps we should try and get into the spirit of it and start calling Boris Doris.
But *why*? What is so funny about it or why is it demeaning?
I can identify one of two possibilities:
1) It's an incredibly subtle reference to Spitting Image's "The Chicken Song", where they are pretending his name is Keith.
or
2) They think that Keith is a hilariously naff name that no serious politician could have, so by using it they're imagining him as a chavvy loser.
It looks more like 2 to me.
Thanks. Keith is not a name I would choose, but neither is cringeworthy.
This whole name calling thing is something that they should have grown out of when their voice broke.*
*Not sexist, as women's voices break too.
Same with Trump's "Lying' Ted", "Crooked Hilary", "Little Mario" stuff. You expect that from primary school kids not the POTUS. Mind you given his core vote he's probably pitching it about right, no big words. nothing too difficult to grasp.
I sometimes wonder if I’m a classical liberal, libertarian or a bit of a secret radical.
However, I keep coming back to the fact I’m really a conservative. There are one-nation Conservatives like David Herdson and DavidL, liberal Conservatives like TSE and praetorian Thatcherites like HD2.
I am basically a shire Tory. It’s why I always had a soft spot for David Cameron, despite getting very frustrated with him at times.
I don't know if this helps but I can tell you that Toby Young self-identifies very strongly as a "classical liberal". Indeed it used to be the rather stark strap-line on his Twitter profile. Toby Young. Classical Liberal - Just that.
But not anymore. It now says "General Secretary of the Free Speech Union."
Which means he won't mind me saying all this. Or even if he does mind he would defend to the death my right to do so.
I’ve now joined the Free Speech Union after my experiences of the last week.
Fair enough. Although I have not noticed you struggling in this department. You always seem to speak your mind. Although of course only you can know if this is really true.
I do. It's the protection (verbal and legal) it offers in case I get witch-hunted.
I don't find accusations of racism funny - it's a move I made to protect myself.
Well based on what you post on here, I don't think you have anything to fear and you are being a touch "precious".
But it's OK. We're ALL precious in the eyes of the lord.
The accusation of racism alone is enough to lose one's job, and it's a short step from there to doxxing. It was one very regular poster on here (who's met me) that drove me to this; he still hasn't fully apologised.
Unlike some very public posters on here I don't have the security of income or career to take that risk.
One of my most cherished dreams is that the Conservatives could be driven to enshrine a version of the First Amendment in law - call it the Freedom of Speech Act, perhaps. It's not too late, and my God do we need it...
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
I think that was twattishly stupid yes, not maliciously nasty. Not saying that's any better.
Mogg does not come across to me as a particularly nice person. His much vaunted and ridiculously exaggerated "politeness" hits my ear as supercilious and consciously stylized. Adopted to lecture and intimidate rather than to be pleasant.
This is my genuine take. It's not because he's posh or a Tory. I could name some posh Tories who I sense are quite nice people.
This is so true. Being politely spoken doesn't mean you don't have a nasty side.
I remember finding his bizarre and aggressive style guide (and ludicrious vocabulary in general) quite revealling for it's sheer bloody pointlessness. He uses language as a tool to berate subordinates, to impress and assert his superiority. Not to communicate ideas, to help colleagues or the public understand his objecitves.
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
I think that was twattishly stupid yes, not maliciously nasty. Not saying that's any better.
Mogg does not come across to me as a particularly nice person. His much vaunted and ridiculously exaggerated "politeness" hits my ear as supercilious and consciously stylized. Adopted to lecture and intimidate rather than to be pleasant.
This is my genuine take. It's not because he's posh or a Tory. I could name some posh Tories who I sense are quite nice people.
This is so true. Being politely spoken doesn't mean you don't have a nasty side.
I remember finding his bizarre and aggressive style guide (and ludicrious vocabulary in general) quite revealling for it's sheer bloody pointlessness. He uses language as a tool to berate subordinates, to impress and assert his superiority. Not to communicate ideas, to help colleagues or the public understand his objecitves.
That's exactly my take. Oppression by accent and table manners. In yer face class privilege.
The way JRM says "floccinaucinihilipilification" suggests he plays to the same market as Carol Vorderman.
Edit: I just checked and as I expected JRM got a second-class degree. "Classy" except where his academic achievements are concerned.
Harsh - he got a 2:1 from Oxford.
So the equivalent of a third from a proper university?
*Grabs tinfoil hat and ducks*
You think you are joking. Oxford hands out firsts and upper seconds to 95 per cent of its graduates. 95 per cent.
Really? I once knew someone who graduated with an Oxford pass degree. How little work must he have done!
Cambridge does the same. Now. 20 years ago was very different.
Their argument is that with the pool of candidates being now so large, the ones they accept are so high quality that they are that good.
The alternative view is that, much like the Iron Cross (second class) under the generalship of the Imperial German Crown Prince in WWI, it requires suicide to avoid getting an Honours degree at a British university.
That doesn't always work, there are honorary post mortem awards.
I knew someone who fiercely argued that a student should get a post mortem First. A very sad story - knocked down on his way to one of the examinations by a car, instead on going to the exam. Blood clot in the brain... dies in the exam hall.
Anyway, got the First past the committee, in the end. This was in Belfast, tried to get a cab to the parents home to deliver it. Couldn't find anyone would take him... Turned out the dad was an PIRA godfather...
Wales and Scotland seem to be determined to ignore England's changes with no indication when single people can meet in a bubble or drive more than 5 miles from home
The new policy in England has huge support and the First Minister's refusing to follow will cause increasing resentment and in the end defiance in their countries
Is was not surprising to hear Nicola, in her press conference today, when faced with tens of thousands of Scots job loses comment that Scotland will need UK support to mitigate the economic devastation
People are very happy G if you care to look at all the polls , she is doing a great job despite Bozo and his thugs. Given UK has all our money , they are not allowed to borrow and so what else do you expect her to do other than ask for some of it back.
She is doing well because lockdown is easy and she is 'feart' of moving out of it.
It is not in doubt the UK will need to fund Scotland and Wales out of this for years to come, hence why independence is likely to be a dream unfulfilled
That is just garbage G, we more than fund ourselves over the spell, using some fudged Tory numbers does not make it real. We will continue to fund ourselves till and after independence. I agree Wales is a basket case and will need to stay a colony. We will see in the near future who is right and who is wrong , Scotland at 67% death rate of England is doing reasonably well so far and would have done much better if allowed to lockdown when they wanted to. Better to be careful than stupid.
You will fund yourselves, but the finances are much tighter.
Wales and the Welsh are far from a basket case. I view them much the same as I do Scotland and the Scots - part of me, part of us.
Absolutely whatever you choose to do in Scotland won't break the ties. England for both Wales and Scotland will be the slightly bigger brother - not necessarily wiser.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Wales and Scotland seem to be determined to ignore England's changes with no indication when single people can meet in a bubble or drive more than 5 miles from home
The new policy in England has huge support and the First Minister's refusing to follow will cause increasing resentment and in the end defiance in their countries
Is was not surprising to hear Nicola, in her press conference today, when faced with tens of thousands of Scots job loses comment that Scotland will need UK support to mitigate the economic devastation
People are very happy G if you care to look at all the polls , she is doing a great job despite Bozo and his thugs. Given UK has all our money , they are not allowed to borrow and so what else do you expect her to do other than ask for some of it back.
She is doing well because lockdown is easy and she is 'feart' of moving out of it.
It is not in doubt the UK will need to fund Scotland and Wales out of this for years to come, hence why independence is likely to be a dream unfulfilled
That is just garbage G, we more than fund ourselves over the spell, using some fudged Tory numbers does not make it real. We will continue to fund ourselves till and after independence. I agree Wales is a basket case and will need to stay a colony. We will see in the near future who is right and who is wrong , Scotland at 67% death rate of England is doing reasonably well so far and would have done much better if allowed to lockdown when they wanted to. Better to be careful than stupid.
You will fund yourselves, but the finances are much tighter.
Wales and the Welsh are far from a basket case. I view them much the same as I do Scotland and the Scots - part of me, part of us.
Absolutely whatever you choose to do in Scotland won't break the ties. England for both Wales and Scotland will be the slightly bigger brother - not necessarily wiser.
Labour's letter just been brought up and Hancock deplores the letter
Starmer is going to have a real problem with the remnants of the Corbynista's in his party
In fairness he has only been leader for a couple of months and he has already massively improved Labour's polling. He cannot sort everything out overnight, if this sort of thing is still happening when we are a year out from the GE it will be a problem but not right now.
He has seen off Corbyn's main allies, Formby. Milne etc Seizing on every daft thing somebody says or does in the Labour Party as evidence that the Corbynistas are still pulling the strings is just silly. Let us not forget the Tories still number Mark Francois amongst their MPs.
Wouldn't we be surprised if we start to see below average levels, due to a lot of old people having dying a few months before they would due to covid or reduced medical coverage.
We could end up with a situation where all those.using the excessive mortality numbers start going quiet / redefining their metric, after projecting excess mortality forward to get bigger numbers.
It does seem to support that these were undiagnosed Covid-19 cases though. Other services remain quiet.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
So much to hang our heads over too - and that includes slavery. Our history is our history nonetheless, and it needs to stand as it is for all to see.
Would you demolish the Colosseum? Nobody would, and certainly nobody should.
Wales and Scotland seem to be determined to ignore England's changes with no indication when single people can meet in a bubble or drive more than 5 miles from home
The new policy in England has huge support and the First Minister's refusing to follow will cause increasing resentment and in the end defiance in their countries
Is was not surprising to hear Nicola, in her press conference today, when faced with tens of thousands of Scots job loses comment that Scotland will need UK support to mitigate the economic devastation
People are very happy G if you care to look at all the polls , she is doing a great job despite Bozo and his thugs. Given UK has all our money , they are not allowed to borrow and so what else do you expect her to do other than ask for some of it back.
She is doing well because lockdown is easy and she is 'feart' of moving out of it.
It is not in doubt the UK will need to fund Scotland and Wales out of this for years to come, hence why independence is likely to be a dream unfulfilled
That is just garbage G, we more than fund ourselves over the spell, using some fudged Tory numbers does not make it real. We will continue to fund ourselves till and after independence. I agree Wales is a basket case and will need to stay a colony. We will see in the near future who is right and who is wrong , Scotland at 67% death rate of England is doing reasonably well so far and would have done much better if allowed to lockdown when they wanted to. Better to be careful than stupid.
You will fund yourselves, but the finances are much tighter.
Wales and the Welsh are far from a basket case. I view them much the same as I do Scotland and the Scots - part of me, part of us.
Absolutely whatever you choose to do in Scotland won't break the ties. England for both Wales and Scotland will be the slightly bigger brother - not necessarily wiser.
It seems that all the Conservative posters who abhor the Black Lives Matter movement have decided that they don't like the Labour BAME MPs' letter on the subject. Well you could have knocked me down with a feather to hear that.
C'mon, Alastair, it's an absolutely appalling letter no matter how you look at. It begins badly ("Dear Rt Hon Priti Patel MP'), and gets worse from there on. I particularly appreciated "Being a person of colour does not automatically make you an authority on all forms of racism", which, whilst true, shows a spectacular failure of self-awareness since they are saying exactly that they are authorities on all forms of racism, what with being persons of colour themselves.
Sir Keir really needs to get a grip on this nonsense. If Labour starts descending back into student politics again, it won't do go down well with potential voters.
It's tone deaf, I agree.
Is there much substantively wrong with it? No - it's expressing a point of view that this is a subject that needs to be dealt with and that Priti Patel's status as a woman of Asian background does not give her the monopoly of wisdom on the subject.
Should it have been sent? Well, I had been leaning to the view that it was a waste of ink and paper, but seeing as how it has driven all the usual suspects on here absolutely crackers, perhaps it served a purpose after all.
I think we can add "BLM", and related debates, as a subject on which your views can safely be ignored going forwards.
For you, it's all about annoying the right people and your obsession with Brexit.
Muted.
Member of Free Speech Union cancels offensive Meaks!
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
That doesn’t leave many successful generals for the USA to celebrate though.
Let’s face it most of the Union’s generals were pisspoor. And the ones in the War of Independence were scarcely better.
You’re realistically down to Patton and Pershing.
Grant and Sherman did OK.
The dead of both Shiloh and Coldharbor beg to differ on Grant.
Well, pretty much all generals have a battle or two that they regret. Grant said so himself about Cold Harbour, that and his first assault at Vicksberg.
Patton didn't do so well at Metz or Kassarine Pass for example.
Shiloh was a very bloody battle, and Tactically indecisive, but after that the Confederacy couldnt win the Mississippi campaign.
It seems that all the Conservative posters who abhor the Black Lives Matter movement have decided that they don't like the Labour BAME MPs' letter on the subject. Well you could have knocked me down with a feather to hear that.
C'mon, Alastair, it's an absolutely appalling letter no matter how you look at. It begins badly ("Dear Rt Hon Priti Patel MP'), and gets worse from there on. I particularly appreciated "Being a person of colour does not automatically make you an authority on all forms of racism", which, whilst true, shows a spectacular failure of self-awareness since they are saying exactly that they are authorities on all forms of racism, what with being persons of colour themselves.
Sir Keir really needs to get a grip on this nonsense. If Labour starts descending back into student politics again, it won't do go down well with potential voters.
It's tone deaf, I agree.
Is there much substantively wrong with it? No - it's expressing a point of view that this is a subject that needs to be dealt with and that Priti Patel's status as a woman of Asian background does not give her the monopoly of wisdom on the subject.
Should it have been sent? Well, I had been leaning to the view that it was a waste of ink and paper, but seeing as how it has driven all the usual suspects on here absolutely crackers, perhaps it served a purpose after all.
I think we can add "BLM", and related debates, as a subject on which your views can safely be ignored going forwards.
For you, it's all about annoying the right people and your obsession with Brexit.
Muted.
Member of Free Speech Union cancels offensive Meaks!
It seems that all the Conservative posters who abhor the Black Lives Matter movement have decided that they don't like the Labour BAME MPs' letter on the subject. Well you could have knocked me down with a feather to hear that.
C'mon, Alastair, it's an absolutely appalling letter no matter how you look at. It begins badly ("Dear Rt Hon Priti Patel MP'), and gets worse from there on. I particularly appreciated "Being a person of colour does not automatically make you an authority on all forms of racism", which, whilst true, shows a spectacular failure of self-awareness since they are saying exactly that they are authorities on all forms of racism, what with being persons of colour themselves.
Sir Keir really needs to get a grip on this nonsense. If Labour starts descending back into student politics again, it won't do go down well with potential voters.
It's tone deaf, I agree.
Is there much substantively wrong with it? No - it's expressing a point of view that this is a subject that needs to be dealt with and that Priti Patel's status as a woman of Asian background does not give her the monopoly of wisdom on the subject.
Should it have been sent? Well, I had been leaning to the view that it was a waste of ink and paper, but seeing as how it has driven all the usual suspects on here absolutely crackers, perhaps it served a purpose after all.
I think we can add "BLM", and related debates, as a subject on which your views can safely be ignored going forwards.
For you, it's all about annoying the right people and your obsession with Brexit.
Muted.
Member of Free Speech Union cancels offensive Meaks!
We need a Meeks Speech Union.
And what would it represent?
(I'm currently well disposed to such an idea because I have a very strong view that you're a good chap. I just disagree with you a lot.)
It seems that all the Conservative posters who abhor the Black Lives Matter movement have decided that they don't like the Labour BAME MPs' letter on the subject. Well you could have knocked me down with a feather to hear that.
C'mon, Alastair, it's an absolutely appalling letter no matter how you look at. It begins badly ("Dear Rt Hon Priti Patel MP'), and gets worse from there on. I particularly appreciated "Being a person of colour does not automatically make you an authority on all forms of racism", which, whilst true, shows a spectacular failure of self-awareness since they are saying exactly that they are authorities on all forms of racism, what with being persons of colour themselves.
Sir Keir really needs to get a grip on this nonsense. If Labour starts descending back into student politics again, it won't do go down well with potential voters.
It's tone deaf, I agree.
Is there much substantively wrong with it? No - it's expressing a point of view that this is a subject that needs to be dealt with and that Priti Patel's status as a woman of Asian background does not give her the monopoly of wisdom on the subject.
Should it have been sent? Well, I had been leaning to the view that it was a waste of ink and paper, but seeing as how it has driven all the usual suspects on here absolutely crackers, perhaps it served a purpose after all.
I think we can add "BLM", and related debates, as a subject on which your views can safely be ignored going forwards.
For you, it's all about annoying the right people and your obsession with Brexit.
Muted.
Member of Free Speech Union cancels offensive Meaks!
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
I think that was twattishly stupid yes, not maliciously nasty. Not saying that's any better.
Mogg does not come across to me as a particularly nice person. His much vaunted and ridiculously exaggerated "politeness" hits my ear as supercilious and consciously stylized. Adopted to lecture and intimidate rather than to be pleasant.
This is my genuine take. It's not because he's posh or a Tory. I could name some posh Tories who I sense are quite nice people.
This is so true. Being politely spoken doesn't mean you don't have a nasty side.
I remember finding his bizarre and aggressive style guide (and ludicrious vocabulary in general) quite revealling for it's sheer bloody pointlessness. He uses language as a tool to berate subordinates, to impress and assert his superiority. Not to communicate ideas, to help colleagues or the public understand his objecitves.
That's exactly my take. Oppression by accent and table manners. In yer face class privilege.
This is all a bit bitchy. I think he uses language because he can - why shouldn't you put on your best self? Does Tiger Woods miss a few putts because he does not want to be seen as elitist in his field?
Mogg as the Tiger Woods of political discourse?
Gives me a chance to use one I've been avoiding on here to this point but now is the time -
It's a view.
You and JRM might share more than you think in being a bit pompous
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
That doesn’t leave many successful generals for the USA to celebrate though.
Let’s face it most of the Union’s generals were pisspoor. And the ones in the War of Independence were scarcely better.
You’re realistically down to Patton and Pershing.
Grant and Sherman did OK.
The dead of both Shiloh and Coldharbor beg to differ on Grant.
Well, pretty much all generals have a battle or two that they regret. Grant said so himself about Cold Harbour, that and his first assault at Vicksberg.
Patton didn't do so well at Metz or Kassarine Pass for example.
Shiloh was a very bloody battle, and Tactically indecisive, but after that the Confederacy couldnt win the Mississippi campaign.
I was thinking more of his failure to post sentries.
As for his full frontal catastrophe at Cold Harbor, did you ever read the diary entry of a Massachusetts soldier who died? ‘April 7th, Cold Harbor, Virginia. I was killed.’
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
And that *is* exactly how I remember it. We had a very big argument about this interview when it happened. To me he seems regretful but not condemnatory. He is not (in my mind) lamenting an absence of common sense in those who stayed, but the fact that official advice lead them to override it. It was a horrible, horrible, maddening situation, and he's expressing horror. We have ample examples of JRM sneering at lesser mortals every week - this doesn't appear to me to be one of those times.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I suppose it may help to alleviate the misery of a shitty socially distanced Christmas - for the minority of families that can still afford such indulgences.
This is why it is hard to resume normal services by relaxing PPE requirements.
The full article is paywalled, but the two are Northampton and Kettering, I think.
Is there any possibility at all of Covid cases being segregated into regional centres as the total numbers decline?
Presumably, just as the best way to protect care home residents has turned out, wholly unsurprisingly, to be to keep plague vectors out of care homes, so it would be better for the normal functioning of the bulk of the NHS if Covid patients were kept in separate premises from other patients?
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Agreed, assuming all we do is cart the most contentious examples off to museums. The obvious concern is that the lunatic fringe will want to end up destroying everything. It doesn't take much work to find something to be offended by in the life of practically any historical figure.
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
And that *is* exactly how I remember it. We had a very big argument about this interview when it happened. To me he seems regretful but not condemnatory. He is not (in my mind) lamenting an absence of common sense in those who stayed, but the fact that official advice lead them to override it. It was a horrible, horrible, maddening situation, and he's expressing horror. We have ample examples of JRM sneering at lesser mortals every week - this doesn't appear to me to be one of those times.
Why did he make an abject apology, was he giving in to the mob that PBers are always going on about?
You do wonder if the Labour Party as distinct from its leader will be electable by the time of the next election.
Most of those were unelectable last time. I mean, how could anyone vote for Zarah Sultana or Tulip Siddiq or Kate Osamor after the way they've behaved? Indeed, Sultana very nearly lost in Coventry as it was. Naz Shah, meanwhile, would surely have gone the way of Aidan Burley had she been a Tory.
The more compelling problem is how to make sure such people, which also include Burgon, Pidcock and Gardiner, don't get on the candidate shortlists to start. That's where Starmer should be focussing his energies.
Although the Tories can hardly talk given they have Rees-Mogg, Francois and Baker.
Rees-Mogg is a nutty crank, he's not maliciously nasty in the way of Shah, Sultana or Pidcock.
Depends on your perspective. JRM is maliciously nasty and stupid,
Do you mind if I ask how?
I can't stand him but because he's an outdated crank who likes to pretend the country is as it was hundreds of years ago. Not noticed him be maliciously nasty, but if he has I'd be curious to learn how?
JRM's suggestion that Grenfell dead should have ignored the fire service advice to stay in their houses and used 'common sense' (like he would have done) managed to be stupid and nasty. That he scuttled away from that statement shortly after suggests even he realised what a twattish thing it was to say.
And that *is* exactly how I remember it. We had a very big argument about this interview when it happened. To me he seems regretful but not condemnatory. He is not (in my mind) lamenting an absence of common sense in those who stayed, but the fact that official advice lead them to override it. It was a horrible, horrible, maddening situation, and he's expressing horror. We have ample examples of JRM sneering at lesser mortals every week - this doesn't appear to me to be one of those times.
"If either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do."
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
It seems that all the Conservative posters who abhor the Black Lives Matter movement have decided that they don't like the Labour BAME MPs' letter on the subject. Well you could have knocked me down with a feather to hear that.
The one in which they slag off a BAME Conservative Home Secretary for daring to disagree with them? Why ever would one have a problem with that?
You don't have a problem with 20,000 avoidable deaths caused by the current government, so it's a bit late to be reaching for the sal volatile over a letter.
'Avoidable' with perfect foresight and / or a time-machine perhaps. Where did you buy yours? I'd like one in chrome.
m As @Pulpstar mentioned this morning, he and I exchanged private messages on 12 March expressing deep concern at the failure to lock down (all credit to him, he was more assertive on the subject than I was).
Now if this was a judgement call that we could both make on publicly available information on 12 March, there really was no excuse for the government waiting as many as 11 long days after that before taking that step, a step that many governments had taken well before that point far earlier in the epidemic cycle.
The question you never ask yourself, because you are slavishly loyal to a government that was scandalously negligent despite the many thousands of deaths that it caused, is why Britain has done so terribly badly when it had many advantages that should have meant that it did particularly well.
Did you submit your data to SAGE? Maybe it would have changed their advice.
SAGE appears to have fallen prey to classic weaknesses of committees. It is ironic that Dominic Cummings, enemy of the traditional model of government in this country, appears to have been part of the epitome of its failings.
Has he?
From the reports that Cummings questioned SAGE leading to them suggesting lockdown it appears that Cummings saw the problem with SAGE and challenged them.
Far from costing 20,000 deaths it appears to me if we'd taken another week to lockdown as SAGE were considering then its worth thinking that there'd have been 50,000 more deaths. Cummings may have saved 50,000 lives by challenging SAGE.
Cummings saved 50,000 lives?
You've gone bad again, Philip.
Knew it would happen.
It could be true could it not?
If its true that SAGE wanted to continue down the Swedish path for another week and if its true that Cummings played a crucial role in bringing lockdown in a week earlier . . . and don't forget that the Swedish route was still being seriously considered and SAGE experts were talking on TV about "herd immunity" then wouldn't Cummings have saved 50,000 lives?
Or do you think bringing lockdown a week earlier makes a difference against when we did it, but would have made no difference if lockdown was a week later?
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
I'm not sure that 'as part of what amounted to a religious civil war' quite fits the bill for 'willingly', and it's certainly not a situation we should seek to recreate today.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
I'm not sure that 'as part of what amounted to a religious civil war' quite fits the bill for 'willingly', and it's certainly not a situation we should seek to recreate today.
You said no great civilisation did such a thing. Are you dissing us by saying that we are not a great civilization?
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
All great civilisations have seen monuments go both up and down.
Across the UK very regularly and without much public attention normally statues are taken down and put into storage.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
Or in Palmyra (twice, as Cathering Nixey’s fictionalised polemic reminds us).
But it isn’t a sin of a stable and progressing society. On the contrary, it’s a sign of violence and the attempt to obliterate a culture that is not merely to be defeated but destroyed entirely.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Did you build it yourself or get someone to build it for you?
I built a watercooled one myself years ago, was fun to do.
Wiki also has a bad habit of overegging American generals because the articles are written by their admirers.
Is that the Talyllyn Railway I espy next to you name?
Better than that - it’s actually Talyllyn.
Just past the Dolgoch Falls.
Edit: Thank goodness it is not the Fairbourne Railway!
Oh, that's nice. One of the happiest days out my partner and I ever had was to hop off the train at the top and walk past the bluebell woods up the disused incline and explore the old slate quarries - coming back via the miners' village at Abergynolwyn and seeing bits of old wagons and the winding reel for the incline up to the railway.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Probably quieter, at least. My new computer is pretty high powered and the fan working all the time is annoying.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Typing this on my 9 year old Macbook. Keep thinking I should get a new one but struggling to find anything wrong with this one.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
Honourable? Smashing something beautiful, interesting and difficult to make just for the sake of it is honourable behaviour? Don't be an arse. I don't know if you are trying to be paradoxical or have argued yourself into a corner where you have persuaded yourself this might be true, but thinking that smashing works of art is clever and funny is the mark of a twat. And puts you in company with the taliban.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
The statue isn't destroyed. It was fished out of the water in one piece and will be put on display in a museum I believe. It may not be about slavery to you but it is to a lot of other people.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Typing this on my 9 year old Macbook. Keep thinking I should get a new one but struggling to find anything wrong with this one.
I’ve got a 13 year old Mac that still works, although it’s a bit slow.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Probably quieter, at least. My new computer is pretty high powered and the fan working all the time is annoying.
Mine cost £2,300 and sits there doing nothing because I don't have the time to set it up properly so I'm using this second hand laptop that cost £150. AMD Ryzen 7 + (cheap, low end) Nvidia GT710 + 64GB RAM + 3 SSDs. The idea was that it will run lots of virtual machines, mainly for horseracing analysis, but I bought it just as racing was cancelled for the lockdown, and now I'm too busy.
Sharp falls on the financial markets today. I read an article in Bannons claiming the stock market rally was basically individuals and institutions sitting on a lot of cash and nowhere to "invest" it with interest rates so low. Essentially, the market became a casino.
I've played plenty of Vegas casinos in my time and the house usually finds a way of getting your money if you play too long.
It also seems a question of which of the two economic scenarios you think (as distinct from hope) will happen.
The first, let's call it the Powell (that's Jerome, not Robert Baden) scenario states the economy has been severely damaged. Demand will continue to be weak keeping interest rates low and unemployment will be high further suppressing demand. Growth will be weak at best and it will take a decade for the economy to adapt to the "new normal" and recover the ground lost.
The alternative (let's call it the Trump) scenario is covid-19 was more akin to a natural disaster. A brief and severe interruption but the fundamentals remain unchanged. Individuals and families (especially in the prosperous middle classes) have sat at home earning but not spending. As shops and businesses re-open, the pent up demand will be released in a burst of economic activity which will soon restore the economy back to normal and within a few months life will be fine again.
Trump clearly wants the latter scenario and his tweets reflect that - with a strong and surging economy, he thinks he will win re-election but if the economy is weak and jobs are being lost, he knows he will lose.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Probably quieter, at least. My new computer is pretty high powered and the fan working all the time is annoying.
Mine cost £2,300 and sits there doing nothing because I don't have the time to set it up properly so I'm using this second hand laptop that cost £150. AMD Ryzen 7 + (cheap, low end) Nvidia GT710 + 64GB RAM + 3 SSDs. The idea was that it will run lots of virtual machines, mainly for horseracing analysis, but I bought it just as racing was cancelled for the lockdown, and now I'm too busy.
Curious as to what betting analysis you are doing that requires virtual machines.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
How many times do people need to be told that it’s because the people of Bristol didn’t want it removed?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example
A number of my ancestors were Presbyterian missionaries, including in late 19th Century Fiji. That indigenous culture and religion was pretty much transformed by the actions of him and his colleagues. A lot of idol smashing went on, I think.
All well intended, and modern Fijians are often quite Evangelical as a result, but at a certain cultural cost.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example
As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
How many times do people need to be told that it’s because the people of Bristol didn’t want it removed?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
It is going to be in a museum, is it not?
If the people want the late Victorian statue restored, then they are free to do so.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Probably quieter, at least. My new computer is pretty high powered and the fan working all the time is annoying.
Mine cost £2,300 and sits there doing nothing because I don't have the time to set it up properly so I'm using this second hand laptop that cost £150. AMD Ryzen 7 + (cheap, low end) Nvidia GT710 + 64GB RAM + 3 SSDs. The idea was that it will run lots of virtual machines, mainly for horseracing analysis, but I bought it just as racing was cancelled for the lockdown, and now I'm too busy.
Curious as to what betting analysis you are doing that requires virtual machines.
Windows needed for Raceform Interactive and the like. Linux for analysis.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
That you can't tell when you are being laughed at.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Probably quieter, at least. My new computer is pretty high powered and the fan working all the time is annoying.
Mine cost £2,300 and sits there doing nothing because I don't have the time to set it up properly so I'm using this second hand laptop that cost £150. AMD Ryzen 7 + (cheap, low end) Nvidia GT710 + 64GB RAM + 3 SSDs. The idea was that it will run lots of virtual machines, mainly for horseracing analysis, but I bought it just as racing was cancelled for the lockdown, and now I'm too busy.
Curious as to what betting analysis you are doing that requires virtual machines.
Windows needed for Raceform Interactive and the like. Linux for analysis.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
That you can't tell when you are being laughed at.
I'm so sorry for finding things that are not at all funny to be ... not at all funny. How very dare I.
Day 4: Statuemania continuing to cause derangements among users of Mr Smithson's site.
No, the case has been lucidly put and pretty much agreed that it is only incidentally about statues.
Always nice to see a fresh face, but your contributions to date suggest that usefully posting here is way above your pay grade. I think you need to accept yourself as one of nature's lurkers.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
How many times do people need to be told that it’s because the people of Bristol didn’t want it removed?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
It is going to be in a museum, is it not?
If the people want the late Victorian statue restored, then they are free to do so.
Indeed.
If as @ydoethur claims, the people of Bristol really want the statue up they can act accordingly and it will be back up. It doesn't look like they're that bothered though.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
That he was trolling?
Then consider me trolled. I don't find cultural vandalism to be at all funny, and if they had more than a single lonely brain cell in their skulls, nor would the protesters.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
No I was referring to the iconoclastic period of Byzantine history, when the Byzantines smashed their own icons.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
That he was trolling?
Then consider me trolled. I don't find cultural vandalism to be at all funny, and if they had more than a single lonely brain cell in their skulls, nor would the protesters.
Transferring statues from plinths to museums or storage isn't cultural vandalism though.
Especially statues that spent most of the post-war era in storage already.
Well. Labour whackos have cemented Patel in place for the next reshuffle.
Is that what they intended?
Patel has higher ambitions (and IMO is a bargain at 45/1 to be next PM). I reckon she stays for now because Boris doesn't want to make an enemy of her.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
How many times do people need to be told that it’s because the people of Bristol didn’t want it removed?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
It is going to be in a museum, is it not?
If the people want the late Victorian statue restored, then they are free to do so.
Indeed.
If as @ydoethur claims, the people of Bristol really want the statue up they can act accordingly and it will be back up. It doesn't look like they're that bothered though.
Well they can't really, can they, because it would be under constant threat from the criminals who vandalised it in the first place. I am dumb struck by your earlier claim that you believe in the rule of law, and I would respect you more if you actually participated in the crime rather than smugly adopting its consequences in a kind of dickless passive aggression. No offence.
On the issue of statues it doesn't surprise me that the public were less than keen. It did feel rather un-British.
I remember a few years back that a new statue of Margaret Thatcher was erected when it was almost immediately smashed up by someone. However I don't believe the individual concerned made a big song and dance about it, videoed the whole thing etc. Just went in, smashed the thing and left. No fuss.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
I love the assumption that it would be a great mark of confidence to not just allow our cultural monuments to be desecrated, but to cravenly acquiesce in their destruction, perhaps even to applaud it.
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Ahem. Destroying statues was a central part of the English Reformation.
Please tell me you’re not suggesting we’re on the cusp of another socio-economic catastrophe like the Reformation.
There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.
'Long and honourable' traditions of cultural annihilation? Are you on meth?
Calm down a bit. Edward Colston's statue going ≠ 'cultural annihilation'.
Foxy specifically referenced the sack of Byzantium / Constantinople, which was an act of the most outrageous fucking barbarism - committed by Christians, before you get excited by the word - as part of a 'long and honourable tradition'. He also supports the actions of the vandals in the UK today.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
No I was referring to the iconoclastic period of Byzantine history, when the Byzantines smashed their own icons.
I clearly overestimated your knowledge of Byzantine history. My apologies.
Oh? Here's your direct quote:
'There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.'
Since you referred explicitly to what Muhammed inflicted upon Mecca after capturing it, it wasn't crazy to assume that you intended a similar context when you referenced Byzantium.
Big PS5 reveal in 90 mins. Rumour is that it will be £600. Lot of parents better get saving for Christmas.
I'd say that's expenseive but I've just splurged £1300 on a new PC so I can't really talk. Has a nice lighting setup on the processor cooling though.
Wait until the new nvidia 3090Ti drops in a few months, £1300 won't get you that !
I went for a 1660. Probably loads more than I need.
My new desktop is probably just under £2k all in all. Mind you it was going to be a lot less but the watercooled 2080 ti I was offered and bought for £750 meant that my longer term plan to watercool the computer became an immediate requirement so that brought forward £500 of spending and made the plan £1250 more expensive than I was planning to spend.
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Water cooling is so much better than having a hairdryer sitting in the corner.
Probably quieter, at least. My new computer is pretty high powered and the fan working all the time is annoying.
Mine cost £2,300 and sits there doing nothing because I don't have the time to set it up properly so I'm using this second hand laptop that cost £150. AMD Ryzen 7 + (cheap, low end) Nvidia GT710 + 64GB RAM + 3 SSDs. The idea was that it will run lots of virtual machines, mainly for horseracing analysis, but I bought it just as racing was cancelled for the lockdown, and now I'm too busy.
Curious as to what betting analysis you are doing that requires virtual machines.
Windows needed for Raceform Interactive and the like. Linux for analysis.
Did you try running it in Wine on the linux box?
No. It evolved from a dual boot machine to separate PCs back to one machine with VMs.
Wouldn't we be surprised if we start to see below average levels, due to a lot of old people having dying a few months before they would due to covid or reduced medical coverage.
We could end up with a situation where all those.using the excessive mortality numbers start going quiet / redefining their metric, after projecting excess mortality forward to get bigger numbers.
It does seem to support that these were undiagnosed Covid-19 cases though. Other services remain quiet.
There has also been l good number of missed or postponed appointments/treatments/tests which could have an effect later.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
How many times do people need to be told that it’s because the people of Bristol didn’t want it removed?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
It is going to be in a museum, is it not?
If the people want the late Victorian statue restored, then they are free to do so.
Leaving aside the fact that the Mayor will not restore it unless forced to, because of his personal views - which I respect, but should not override due process and the law - that doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s been torn down unlawfully against the wishes of the people of Bristol by what looked like a mob of the Ku Klux Klan on a day off. And I cannot understand why so many people seem to think this is OK. It’s deeply worrying. By hat logic our personal views are more important - should I then throw Boris Johnson in the Thames on the basis I didn’t vote for him and he’s a racist?
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
How many times do people need to be told that it’s because the people of Bristol didn’t want it removed?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
It is going to be in a museum, is it not?
If the people want the late Victorian statue restored, then they are free to do so.
Indeed.
If as @ydoethur claims, the people of Bristol really want the statue up they can act accordingly and it will be back up. It doesn't look like they're that bothered though.
Well they can't really, can they, because it would be under constant threat from the criminals who vandalised it in the first place. I am dumb struck by your earlier claim that you believe in the rule of law, and I would respect you more if you actually participated in the crime rather than smugly adopting its consequences in a kind of dickless passive aggression. No offence.
I do believe in the rule of law. I said all along that those who did this should face the consequences of breaking the law - and no stage did I say that the CPS should not press ahead with charges as others have said.
I simply said that if people are prepared to face the consequences of breaking the law then civil disorder has been very successful in the past.
A lot of stuff has been vandalised quite regularly in the past, doesn't stop it being there. One incidence of vandalism doesn't mean it needs to vanish or almost every monument and building in the country would be gone already. If the people of Bristol want the statue back up they could put it back up - and maybe add a CCTV camera nearby if they're bothered.
So, Baden Powell still very much hanging on in Poole then.
Quick stock take (like on Spoty) of Those We Have Lost -
Edward Colston. Robert Milligan.
Is that it? Just these 2 hardcore slaver ones? Plus HBO's Gone With The Wind is in for review, of course, but on the statues front?
Don't forget old Leopold. PB hysterics overcame their instinctive antipathy towards Brussels to adopt the genocidal self-enricher as one of their own.
A statue here, a street name there, before you know it you're talking some serious nullification of our whole sense of who and what we are.
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Yep, it's the lack of cultural confidence I find more striking than the fear-tinged hysteria, which tbh has around since some foreign looking bloke stared at SeanT a bit funny in the reign of Tony Blair. If Western Civilization can't withstand losing a couple of second rate sculptures, we really are fcuked.
Yes, the defensiveness about Empire does show a certain fragility. Perhaps it dents the sense of English exceptionalism to admit that many of our countries actions, including some well within living memory, do not look good in the cold light of day.
I think that misses the point entirely. To me this is purely a process point, or rather two process points of which one is that you don't destroy or suppress statues, films, books or anything else because you don't like the point of view you think they represent and the other is that although perfectly legitimate questions can be asked about what should be done with these statues those questions don't get answered by criminal damage accompanied by implied threats of physical violence. It really isn't about empire or slavery, except incidentally; it's about historical truth and the rule of law.
I am with Starmer on this. I do not support illegal actions or vandalism. I do wonder why Coltons statue was up in the first place.
I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example
As I understand it it's because unlike 99.99% of slave traders of his day he spent his gains on philanthropy and charity. He certainly wasn't being celebrated for his slave trading.
Doesn't philanthropy literally mean a love of your fellow man? A bit sick to describe a slaver as a philanthropist.
Comments
Anyway, got the First past the committee, in the end. This was in Belfast, tried to get a cab to the parents home to deliver it. Couldn't find anyone would take him... Turned out the dad was an PIRA godfather...
Wales and the Welsh are far from a basket case. I view them much the same as I do Scotland and the Scots - part of me, part of us.
Absolutely whatever you choose to do in Scotland won't break the ties. England for both Wales and Scotland will be the slightly bigger brother - not necessarily wiser.
Top dourness mind!
Hundreds did not respond to phone calls or refused to give details of people they had been in contact with"
(Mail)
Is this partly people worried they will be prosecuted for being with people they shouldn't under lockdown?
Maybe say no one will be prosecuted based on any info from contact tracing?
But seriously, it's the fragility I find surprising and disappointing. So much to celebrate about this country in 2020 that has nothing to do with Empire or slavery.
Coronavirus: "BAME safety plan not published"
He has seen off Corbyn's main allies, Formby. Milne etc Seizing on every daft thing somebody says or does in the Labour Party as evidence that the Corbynistas are still pulling the strings is just silly. Let us not forget the Tories still number Mark Francois amongst their MPs.
Would you demolish the Colosseum? Nobody would, and certainly nobody should.
Patton didn't do so well at Metz or Kassarine Pass for example.
Shiloh was a very bloody battle, and Tactically indecisive, but after that the Confederacy couldnt win the Mississippi campaign.
Good one!
(I'm currently well disposed to such an idea because I have a very strong view that you're a good chap. I just disagree with you a lot.)
Alistair Meaks.
Knew I shouldn't have done it.
Sorry.
This is why it is hard to resume normal services by relaxing PPE requirements.
The full article is paywalled, but the two are Northampton and Kettering, I think.
As for his full frontal catastrophe at Cold Harbor, did you ever read the diary entry of a Massachusetts soldier who died? ‘April 7th, Cold Harbor, Virginia. I was killed.’
No great civilization has ever willingly done such a thing, and they would find the very notion quite ludicrous.
Presumably, just as the best way to protect care home residents has turned out, wholly unsurprisingly, to be to keep plague vectors out of care homes, so it would be better for the normal functioning of the bulk of the NHS if Covid patients were kept in separate premises from other patients? Agreed, assuming all we do is cart the most contentious examples off to museums. The obvious concern is that the lunatic fringe will want to end up destroying everything. It doesn't take much work to find something to be offended by in the life of practically any historical figure.
https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-britain/exhibition/art-under-attack-histories-british-iconoclasm/art-under-attack-1
If its true that SAGE wanted to continue down the Swedish path for another week and if its true that Cummings played a crucial role in bringing lockdown in a week earlier . . . and don't forget that the Swedish route was still being seriously considered and SAGE experts were talking on TV about "herd immunity" then wouldn't Cummings have saved 50,000 lives?
Or do you think bringing lockdown a week earlier makes a difference against when we did it, but would have made no difference if lockdown was a week later?
Worst thing is that I screwed up and ordered the wrong parts from Germany so I won't be able to build it for another week.
Across the UK very regularly and without much public attention normally statues are taken down and put into storage.
Syria, for example, is quietly collapsing further:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/11/assad-syria-collapse-313276
But it isn’t a sin of a stable and progressing society. On the contrary, it’s a sign of violence and the attempt to obliterate a culture that is not merely to be defeated but destroyed entirely.
I built a watercooled one myself years ago, was fun to do.
I am relaxed about the British Empire, and my own family's involvement with it. It is a much more mature approach to accept that as a country we did a lot of bad things over the years. Including some very recent ones. The treatment of the Chagos Islanders for example
AMD Ryzen 7 + (cheap, low end) Nvidia GT710 + 64GB RAM + 3 SSDs. The idea was that it will run lots of virtual machines, mainly for horseracing analysis, but I bought it just as racing was cancelled for the lockdown, and now I'm too busy.
Sharp falls on the financial markets today. I read an article in Bannons claiming the stock market rally was basically individuals and institutions sitting on a lot of cash and nowhere to "invest" it with interest rates so low. Essentially, the market became a casino.
I've played plenty of Vegas casinos in my time and the house usually finds a way of getting your money if you play too long.
It also seems a question of which of the two economic scenarios you think (as distinct from hope) will happen.
The first, let's call it the Powell (that's Jerome, not Robert Baden) scenario states the economy has been severely damaged. Demand will continue to be weak keeping interest rates low and unemployment will be high further suppressing demand. Growth will be weak at best and it will take a decade for the economy to adapt to the "new normal" and recover the ground lost.
The alternative (let's call it the Trump) scenario is covid-19 was more akin to a natural disaster. A brief and severe interruption but the fundamentals remain unchanged. Individuals and families (especially in the prosperous middle classes) have sat at home earning but not spending. As shops and businesses re-open, the pent up demand will be released in a burst of economic activity which will soon restore the economy back to normal and within a few months life will be fine again.
Trump clearly wants the latter scenario and his tweets reflect that - with a strong and surging economy, he thinks he will win re-election but if the economy is weak and jobs are being lost, he knows he will lose.
What conclusions might you draw from these facts, hmm?
Now it has been torn down illegally by a mob of largely white protestors many of whom may have voted Labour and thus be racist as hell themselves, as Sultana or Shah are. But everyone is too scared of them to put it back (not that the Mayor wants to because he’s wanted rid of it for years).
And now the statue is gone - but the buildings and the schools that the money raised from slaving paid for remains.
All well intended, and modern Fijians are often quite Evangelical as a result, but at a certain cultural cost.
If the people want the late Victorian statue restored, then they are free to do so.
Is that what they intended?
Always nice to see a fresh face, but your contributions to date suggest that usefully posting here is way above your pay grade. I think you need to accept yourself as one of nature's lurkers.
If as @ydoethur claims, the people of Bristol really want the statue up they can act accordingly and it will be back up. It doesn't look like they're that bothered though.
https://twitter.com/Forzabahab/status/1271157481776001029
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/byzantine1/beginners-guide-byzantine/a/iconoclastic-controversies
I clearly overestimated your knowledge of Byzantine history. My apologies.
Especially statues that spent most of the post-war era in storage already.
I reckon she stays for now because Boris doesn't want to make an enemy of her.
I remember a few years back that a new statue of Margaret Thatcher was erected when it was almost immediately smashed up by someone. However I don't believe the individual concerned made a big song and dance about it, videoed the whole thing etc. Just went in, smashed the thing and left. No fuss.
I'm being facetious but only a little.
'There is a long and honorable tradition of statue smashing, not just here, but also in Byzantium, and of course by Muhammad upon capturing Mecca.'
Since you referred explicitly to what Muhammed inflicted upon Mecca after capturing it, it wasn't crazy to assume that you intended a similar context when you referenced Byzantium.
https://twitter.com/bheater/status/1270350926231015427
I simply said that if people are prepared to face the consequences of breaking the law then civil disorder has been very successful in the past.
A lot of stuff has been vandalised quite regularly in the past, doesn't stop it being there. One incidence of vandalism doesn't mean it needs to vanish or almost every monument and building in the country would be gone already. If the people of Bristol want the statue back up they could put it back up - and maybe add a CCTV camera nearby if they're bothered.