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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds Moggsy’s MP voting plan has gone down

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    edited June 2020
    Re moments of fame -

    I was on Fifteen To One.

    Eliminated 1st round. 2 questions. 15 seconds of screen time. And they said my name wrong.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157
    edited June 2020

    Face coverings on public transport will be compulsory from 15 June in England to help stop the transmission of coronavirus as more people go back to work, Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, said on Thursday.

    The government will require people to wear face coverings on buses, trains, tubes and other modes of public transport from that date, when non-essential shops are likely to reopen.

    However, it will not apply to people entering shops, despite the current guidance saying face coverings should be worn in enclosed public places.

    Ministers are bringing in the policy due to concerns about the difficulties of physical distancing on crowded public transport, despite people being asked to use other ways of travelling, to space out, face away from each other and travel at staggered times.

    A senior government source said it would help stop asymptomatic people passing the virus on to others and also “act as a visible reminder” of the need for distancing and measures such as handwashing.

    Under the conditions of carriage, fines may be imposed for anyone who flouts the new rules.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/04/face-masks-to-be-made-compulsory-on-public-transport-in-england?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1591286551

    Head in hands....why do the government keep making these things much more convoluted and dragged out than they need to be.

    When out and about, wear a mask, especially if you can't social distance, be it on a train or in a shop....simples. And like the quarantining arrivals, should have been policy 3 months ago.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    If your belief in an illusory British nation state overrides your belief in sovereign European states cooperating within the European Union, you're a British nationalist. Your ranting against nationalists is deeply hypocritical.
    William , He is just a thick plank and nasty with it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,972

    The taxi drivers are all busy ferrying the SeanTs around, while providing data to the hive mind, in the form of anecdotes.
    Those are only the imagined ones
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242

    Thanks Richard but you are missing my point.

    Let me make it clear immediately that I have my doubts about the whole story and not just the Castle fairy tale element. There has been, as far as I know, no corroboration of his wife's illness, or his own, or indeed much about the dramatic visit with the son to the hospital. Nor is there any corroboration about the trip to Durham, exactly when it was made, whether there were any stops or detours, and likewise the return trip. Nor have the activities whilst staying 'on the farm' been corroborated.

    Cummings electronic records would be very helpful in such corroboration if they were offered. They were offered only in connection with the plainly incorrect story of the second trip. That suggests to me that handing over the said records for the whole period might prove awkward.

    Feel free to aim things at me. Happy to be Aunt Sally on this one.
    No not at all. I just don't see any evidence nor any support for such claims. As you know I think he should have resigned anyway as a matter of principle and still believe that. But since I come from a pro-Cummings position philosophically, I am not going looking for conspiracy theories to bring him down when, to my mind, he has already done enough to deserve sacking.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,269
    edited June 2020
    ..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    edited June 2020
    Shapps says facemasks to be compulsory on public transport
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020
    220k new test today. Just short of Germany+France+Spain+Italy combined.

    Cases 1805 a little high, but that's affected by the testing increase.

    Deaths announced 176.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,820
    IshmaelZ said:

    Since his election as leader I have revised my opinion of sks upwards, and now back down again. This is being "forensic" in the sense that it feels as if he thinks these letters will be devastatingly effective when they form p.78 of documents bundle XVIIa in a High Court trial five years hence. They are his equivalent of calls for judge led inquiries into everything.
    The thing Starmer has in his favour is that he acts more like a Prime Minister than the Prime Minister does.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157
    HYUFD said:

    Shapps says facemasks to be compulsory on public transport

    Are they available from a Mr Green owned and operated online company?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,421

    Head in hands....why do the government keep making these things much more convoluted and dragged out than they need to be.

    When out and about, wear a mask, especially if you can't social distance, be it on a train or in a shop....simples. And like the quarantining arrivals, should have been policy 3 months ago.
    Because the Government hardly use public transport, if at all?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited June 2020

    They'll keep insisting it until the day after the next Scottish Parliament election. Not granting one would be Scottish Tory policy at that election so there won't be any prevaricating on the matter.

    If the SNP win a majority though then that'd be reason to change potentially. Whether they will then or not is another question, but it won't change before then.
    Agreed. Nothing changes til 7 May 2021. Which suits the SNP and SCons, and severely disadvantages SLab and SLD.

    The big unknown is how the chaos in London is going to affect Holyrood GE 2021.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    Because the Government hardly use public transport, if at all?
    Oh no, not with the smelly plebs. As one of them, or at least their predecessors, admitted.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,027

    I couldn't care less.

    Viruses don't discriminate between people who eat meat and vegetarians - and the entire world isn't going to become vegetarian.
    If your doctor told you personally to stop eating meat because it was killing you, would you?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951
    FF43 said:

    The thing Starmer has in his favour is that he acts more like a Prime Minister than the Prime Minister does.
    He acts exactly as he is. Another lawyer

    Hence lots of pointless letter writing
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157
    edited June 2020

    Because the Government hardly use public transport, if at all?
    Very wise...those peasant wagons in particular are filthy contraptions.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Brom said:

    It does not feel very Statesmanlike to post letters like this for the crowd on social media. Pure posturing from a man who probably won't ever have to worry about being PM at the same time as Trump is President.
    Starmer is a poseur's poseur
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Claims to fame: aged 9, I was one of a group of children interviewed by Ronald Blythe, author of Akenfield, for the Sunday Times. The name Alastair made a few appearances in the article - correctly spelt as well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242

    Head in hands....why do the government keep making these things much more convoluted and dragged out than they need to be.

    When out and about, wear a mask, especially if you can't social distance, be it on a train or in a shop....simples. And like the quarantining arrivals, should have been policy 3 months ago.
    Whilst I agree I suspect that once again this may be driven by the lack of masks.

    I was having a chat with one of my close friends last night who is Chief Pharmacist for a large NHS trust. He was wryly observing how often Government guidance just by chance, seems to match what PPE they have available. So when gloves were in short supply guidance was that they were not necessary but once a stable supply became available the guidance changed to them being a vital part of PPE.

    Much of the Government interpretation of scientific advice seems to be driven by expediency rather than sound science and I suspect this issue with masks is more of the same. .
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,369
    Pagan2 said:

    And we couldn't ban cruel practises like live export of animals in the eu and we have to accept meat from other eu countries with lower animal welfare standards for the last 40 years. The complaining you did was so loud no one heard it
    I thought that leaving the EU would lead to a lowering of standards, not an increase, and with the news that we are going to be importing chlorinated chicken it looks like I was right.
    I've been complaining about farming cruelty in the way that Mr Thompson would approve of, by not eating meat for the last thirty years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    Animal protein is more expensive though, and not just in terms of money, but also in terms of land use and water etc.

    Though this was an interesting piece of news over recent weeks, and perhaps explains our obesity drive. A hunger for protein.

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1264060029956755457?s=19
    Indeed. Eating more meat and fewer carbs is a good answer for our diets.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,421
    edited June 2020

    Very wise...those peasant wagons in particular are filthy contraptions.
    Would be interesting to see how Shapps would cope with a rush-hour ride on the Central line...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242

    If your belief in an illusory British nation state overrides your belief in sovereign European states cooperating within the European Union, you're a British nationalist. Your ranting against nationalists is deeply hypocritical.
    Given my intense dislike of Nigel I can't believe I am going to defend him but, he is a strong opponent of Brexit. As such I think your attack on him is misplaced.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited June 2020
    Brom said:

    It does not feel very Statesmanlike to post letters like this for the crowd on social media. Pure posturing from a man who probably won't ever have to worry about being PM at the same time as Trump is President.
    It's pure virtue signalling for the social media crowd, trying to goad the PM for not telling the leader of our closest ally that he's evil incarnate, straight to his face.

    It's the sort of publicity stunt we saw under the last Labour leader, and those of us who may be floating voters at the next election were hoping would have gone away.

    Also, why is everyone referring only to peaceful protests, when most of them in the US have clearly been anything but peaceful?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,137
    Interesting interview with Jonathan Sumption from last year when he was the Remainer's hero rather than their anti-lockdown villain, and Leaver's out of touch elitist rather than champion of freedom

    https://soundcloud.com/unherd-confessions/jonathan-sumptions-confessions
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,421

    I thought that leaving the EU would lead to a lowering of standards, not an increase, and with the news that we are going to be importing chlorinated chicken it looks like I was right.
    I've been complaining about farming cruelty in the way that Mr Thompson would approve of, by not eating meat for the last thirty years.
    Will be 29 years this year for me :)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    It does seem a bit that way. PMQs, I wrote to you, but you didn't write back. Well i phoned you....but there were other people on the call...and....arhhh see I got you....person in the street, huh.

    I have compiled a dossier of companies that tried to sell you PPE, but you ignored them....yes, we asked them to fill in a form to provide evidence of their supply chain and we found they were from Trotters Independent Trading...arhhh see got you.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOMhN-hfMtY
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442

    Very wise...those peasant wagons in particular are filthy contraptions.
    From a few friends in Manchester who have been forced to use the peasant wagons to get to work, they reckon maybe only 10% of passengers use face coverings.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,137
    The use of "sceptic"

    When we were discussing Brexit "Eurosceptic" appeared to mean "Rabid Leaver". When discussing lockdown, I think it is more "not too sure about it either way" rather than "demand it end NOW", although Toby Young etc seem to see themselves as sceptics in the "Eurosceptic" way of understanding
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 727
    kinabalu said:

    Re moments of fame -

    I was on Fifteen To One.

    Eliminated 1st round. 2 questions. 15 seconds of screen time. And they said my name wrong.

    Ditto. Although they did get my name right but because I competed under my maiden name, some people thought they had got my name wrong.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,596

    No not at all. I just don't see any evidence nor any support for such claims. As you know I think he should have resigned anyway as a matter of principle and still believe that. But since I come from a pro-Cummings position philosophically, I am not going looking for conspiracy theories to bring him down when, to my mind, he has already done enough to deserve sacking.
    Yes, I understand that perfectly, Richard, and have no quarrel with the view. Mine is not so much a conspiracy theory (on the whole I don't like them whatever the subject) but more a response to what I take to be a blatant lie (Barnard Castle.)

    As a general rule I tend to assume people are being honest with me but if it becomes clear I have been lied to, I then tend to assume the opposite and doubt everything they are saying. That's why I am sceptical about the entire Cummings account. Obviously I have no proof but as he clearly lied about one part of the story I feel justified in adopting a sceptical view of the rest, substituting my own plausible interpretation for his.

    Hope that makes my take clear, even if you don't entirely agree with it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    If your doctor told you personally to stop eating meat because it was killing you, would you?
    I'd definitely want a second opinion and more details before deciding.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157
    edited June 2020
    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1268351908449837061?s=20

    Police brutality, COVID and Fentanyl usage...3 of the major issues in US society.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,137
    edited June 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Good answer on the Pretenders, btw - just listened to your clip.

    And also, for anyone who has seen The Americans, With or Without You will carry particular resonance.

    And as for fame, my slightest claim to media fame is that once, several years ago, to my great embarrassment one of the then new tv channels did a documentary on white collar boxing which included me when I was fighting. It is repeated every 3-5 years on Dave or somesuch.
    Cheers. I was in the car on my way to the bottle bank when they asked the question, and on my way back they asked it again as no one had got the right answer. I called when I got home and there I was! I was wondering what the prize was... and there wasn't one! (other than the first mention of the baby on regional radio)
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    He acts exactly as he is. Another lawyer

    Hence lots of pointless letter writing
    Has anyone told him that it's pro bono
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited June 2020

    Because the Government hardly use public transport, if at all?
    Do they think the Government Car Service is public transport?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,876
    IanB2 said:

    Those are only the imagined ones
    Come to think of it - maybe the ONS is counting all deaths, *including all persona*.

    So as the number of SeanTs falls, so the excess death number matches up with the COVID19 number
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I thought that leaving the EU would lead to a lowering of standards, not an increase, and with the news that we are going to be importing chlorinated chicken it looks like I was right.
    I've been complaining about farming cruelty in the way that Mr Thompson would approve of, by not eating meat for the last thirty years.
    You know me well, I 100% approve of making choices that way.

    If that's your choice then good for you. The law does not need changing to make choices, while others can make different choices. I don't require or expect you to make the same choices as me.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010

    He acts exactly as he is. Another lawyer

    Hence lots of pointless letter writing

    I like that we are getting these kinds of attacks on Starmer. He's clearly got the Tories rattled. They have had it easy for far too long.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,876
    Andrew said:

    220k new test today. Just short of Germany+France+Spain+Italy combined.

    Cases 1805 a little high, but that's affected by the testing increase.

    Deaths announced 176.

    Does this mean that Boris has been hiding bodies at Chequers again?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,137

    I like that we are getting these kinds of attacks on Starmer. He's clearly got the Tories rattled. They have had it easy for far too long.

    Because they never bothered attacking Jezza or Ed!
  • You know me well, I 100% approve of making choices that way.

    If that's your choice then good for you. The law does not need changing to make choices, while others can make different choices. I don't require or expect you to make the same choices as me.
    You don't think the law should set minimum animal welfare standards ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    That's not necessarily bad news. It may mean that they can adopt a less exacting test for admitting patients to hospitals.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951

    I like that we are getting these kinds of attacks on Starmer. He's clearly got the Tories rattled. They have had it easy for far too long.

    I am not rattled by Starmer and he has a long way to go to prove his worth

    Lots of letter writing is a lawyers way
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010

    You know me well, I 100% approve of making choices that way.

    If that's your choice then good for you. The law does not need changing to make choices, while others can make different choices. I don't require or expect you to make the same choices as me.

    Yoiu are happy for the UK to bend the knee on animal welfare standards to President Trump in order to get a trade deal. My guess is that you will be in a minority. We shall see. But this was the Mail on Sunday this week:
    https://tounesnanews.com/2020/05/31/most-britons-oppose-ditching-animal-welfare-and-environmental-rules-in-us-trade-deal-says-mos-poll/


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157

    That's not necessarily bad news. It may mean that they can adopt a less exacting test for admitting patients to hospitals.
    The massive continued reduction in those on ventilators would suggest that is likely explanation.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667
    Sandpit said:



    Also, why is everyone referring only to peaceful protests, when most of them in the US have clearly been anything but peaceful?

    Are you sure? My impression is that most are indeed peaceful (unless one counts shouting as violence), but of course the media highlight the ones that aren't.

    I will say that the only demo that has really stuck in my mind in a good way was the utterly silent Tamil protest about Srti Lanka outside Parliament - thousands of dignified people quietly carrying banners. I remember a Tory MP and I both agreeing that it had made us look at the issue more closely than we had done.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951
    Grant Shapps has improved his delivery recently
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    You don't think the law should set minimum animal welfare standards ?
    Minimum? Yes I believe the law should set a minimum.

    I also believe standards can be better than the minimum but I don't think that needs a law to enforce it.

    I specifically gave the examples that I choose to buy free range eggs and I choose to buy Red Tractor meat both of which have higher welfare standards than eg caged eggs and Danish bacon etc

    It doesn't take a legal change for me to pick standards higher than a minimum nor should it take a legal change for others if they care. And if they don't, that's their choice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157
    edited June 2020
    Coronavirus...social distancing...all so last month.

    Thousands join Birmingham protest

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-52920826
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,876

    The massive continued reduction in those on ventilators would suggest that is likely explanation.
    And would explain the convergences of the all settings number with the hospital numbers.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,407

    I am not rattled by Starmer and he has a long way to go to prove his worth

    Lots of letter writing is a lawyers way
    If the future holds songs of 'let's hear it for Sir Kier Starmer' I'd be more than amazed.

    His main good point is that he's not Corbyn.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,996

    I am not rattled by Starmer and he has a long way to go to prove his worth

    Lots of letter writing is a lawyers way
    Its clear that Starmer is a shit of the highest order.. that continues with past 21st century Labour leaders .. Blair Brown. Miliband and Corbyn. Starmer will trip.up.over his own ego.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,511
    edited June 2020

    Coronavirus...social distancing...all so last month.

    Thousands join Birmingham protest

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-52920826

    'Birmingham City Council said it supported the demonstration, but ***encouraged*** protesters to maintain social distancing' ???

    (My emphasis added)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,954
    edited June 2020

    I am not rattled by Starmer and he has a long way to go to prove his worth

    Lots of letter writing is a lawyers way
    I don't remember Tone, also a lawyer, writing many letters when he was LotO. Why didn't Tone feel the need to?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,421

    'Birmingham City Council said it supported the demonstration, but ***encouraged*** protesters to maintain social distancing' ???

    (My emphasis added)
    Socialist distancing!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    That's not necessarily bad news. It may mean that they can adopt a less exacting test for admitting patients to hospitals.
    One of the things I expect to come under scrutiny in the Inquiry has been our strategy of "stay at home until you're seriously ill". I wonder how many lives we have lost by "protecting the NHS"?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766
    Omnium said:

    If the future holds songs of 'let's hear it for Sir Kier Starmer' I'd be more than amazed.

    His main good point is that he's not Corbyn.
    Indeed, and that should be cause enough for the Tories to be worried; add to that he seems quite competent and add to that that it is apparent Johnson has no leadership skills, and is looking more idiotic by the day. Starmer is to Johnson what Cameron was to Brown. I would expect a similar result when the time comes, assuming Bozo lasts that long.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Grant Shapps has improved his delivery recently

    I thought he was good, some straight bat answers, some nice touches.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951

    I don't remember Tone, also a lawyer, writing many letters when he was LotO. Why didn't Tone feel the need to?
    He was labour's best pm in recent times
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,421

    Its clear that Starmer is a shit of the highest order.. that continues with past 21st century Labour leaders .. Blair Brown. Miliband and Corbyn. Starmer will trip.up.over his own ego.
    image
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,538

    Given my intense dislike of Nigel I can't believe I am going to defend him but, he is a strong opponent of Brexit. As such I think your attack on him is misplaced.
    Yes, but his opposition to Brexit is because it injures his sense of British identity. Britishness comes first.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,877

    I like that we are getting these kinds of attacks on Starmer. He's clearly got the Tories rattled. They have had it easy for far too long.

    He makes a good opposition leader. The polls suggest that. I suspect that the electorate will vote for him to stay as opposition leader for quite some time.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667
    Quite a few bad polls for Trump in recent days:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,407

    Its clear that Starmer is a shit of the highest order.. that continues with past 21st century Labour leaders .. Blair Brown. Miliband and Corbyn. Starmer will trip.up.over his own ego.
    I don't see this argument at all with Blair, Milliband, or Starmer.

    Brown (particularly) and Corbyn are quite loathsome.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,511

    If your belief in an illusory British nation state overrides your belief in sovereign European states cooperating within the European Union, you're a British nationalist. Your ranting against nationalists is deeply hypocritical.
    Oh dear, has he departed from the true faith? Nigel has been one of the most vociferous remainers on this site. Do you all have to work toward the dismemberment of the British state now? No barneys with our new friends the SNP. :lol:
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,435

    One of the things I expect to come under scrutiny in the Inquiry has been our strategy of "stay at home until you're seriously ill". I wonder how many lives we have lost by "protecting the NHS"?
    Together with its part in the care home deaths there's been a certain Moloch like aspect of the 'national religion'.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited June 2020

    Are you sure? My impression is that most are indeed peaceful (unless one counts shouting as violence), but of course the media highlight the ones that aren't.

    I will say that the only demo that has really stuck in my mind in a good way was the utterly silent Tamil protest about Srti Lanka outside Parliament - thousands of dignified people quietly carrying banners. I remember a Tory MP and I both agreeing that it had made us look at the issue more closely than we had done.
    Of course. To be fair, there are indeed large groups of peaceful protesters in the USA - they're rightly aggrieved and obviously have the right of free speech to air their grievances around deaths in police custody.

    There's also a number of idiots involved, who support a variety of causes and a variety of methods to make their point.

    My issue is more with the media reporting, conflating the various peaceful and violent groups - with some of the reporters looking like the Iraqi information minister saying that everything passed off peacefully, to a background of buildings on fire and looters smashing shop windows.

    Lovely anecdote about the Tamil protestors by the way, to many aggrieved people the only thing they have left to do is stand silently in front of Parliament and hope the MPs notice.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    One of the things I expect to come under scrutiny in the Inquiry has been our strategy of "stay at home until you're seriously ill". I wonder how many lives we have lost by "protecting the NHS"?
    It's certainly on the list. Getting people to die in an orderly manner seems to have been among the highest priorities.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I recall that. Turbo boost to partisanship, some say.

    But Trump, say, did we get a manifesto in 2016?

    Or was it just "Build That Wall" etc from his rallies?
    No, we don't have manifestos in the British/Commonwealth sense. What we do have is that one of the things that the party Conventions do, as well as formally elect the party's Presidential ticket, is write the party platform which notionally the Presidential and Congressional campaigns are fought on.

    Because of the separation of powers and because electoral candidates are elected by the people in primary elections, not selected by the party machine (and therefore can be "de-selected" for not adhering to the party line) party discipline is not like it is in the UK. This means that there's no practical way for the President, or even a Congressional majority of the same party, to push through legislation implementing a platform "plank" in the way that British governments, with a guaranteed parliamentary majority, can push passing a "manifesto commitment" as a moral obligation.

    That's not to say that the party platforms are meaningless: they do constitute general statements of intended policy over the next 2-4 years if elected, and many of the "planks" in practice do get implemented, but they don't carry the weight that an election manifesto does in the Westminster system.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Omnium said:

    If the future holds songs of 'let's hear it for Sir Kier Starmer' I'd be more than amazed.

    His main good point is that he's not Corbyn.
    Let us all be thankful that there is only one Jeremy Corbyn.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010

    I am not rattled by Starmer and he has a long way to go to prove his worth

    Lots of letter writing is a lawyers way

    Letters create evidence. You may not be rattled by Starmer, but Johnson clearly is, as are a number of posters on here. I can understand why. He is far smarter than the PM, more on top of his brief and not afraid of a bit of hard work. Since he has become leader, the polls have closed and his personal numbers have become steadily more positive, as have those for the Labour party. It's two months today that he became Labour leader. It's not a bad start.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,877
    edited June 2020
    Interesting that ventilator bed use is still falling very steadily.

    Perhaps the criteria for hospitalisation has relaxed a bit in some areas? There's a risk that we aren't seeing the same proportion of cases as we were during the peak.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504
    Parts of the media are losing interest in COVID-19. The Guardian main story is George Floyd, while the Mail Online has four Madeleine McCann stories at the top of the site.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,820

    He acts exactly as he is. Another lawyer

    Hence lots of pointless letter writing
    No sensible person would choose Johnson over Starmer. I accept there are a lot of not at all sensible people out there. Also that we can conceive of candidates better than either Starmer or Johnson, but that's the choice at the moment.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,157
    edited June 2020
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442

    It's certainly on the list. Getting people to die in an orderly manner seems to have been among the highest priorities.
    I think the driver of that might well be an assumption that the fatality rate was going to be much higher than it turned out to be.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Coronavirus...social distancing...all so last month.

    Thousands join Birmingham protest

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-52920826

    But YOU must wear a facemask on public transport - or be fined!

    People are going to get unhappy about this. And soon.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766

    I don't remember Tone, also a lawyer, writing many letters when he was LotO. Why didn't Tone feel the need to?
    Funny how anyone could think that polemic writing, gameshow hosting, or mediocre book writing are better credentials than a lawyer. Mr NorthWales, you perhaps ought to made aware that parliament is not about showbiz, it is about making laws. A legal background is probably about as good a background as you could have to be there. Unless you think "we have had enough of experts". We are certainly testing that idea to destruction by having Boris Johnson as our extremely amateur PM
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,071

    Grant Shapps has improved his delivery recently

    Has he subscribed to Amazon Prime?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242

    Are you sure? My impression is that most are indeed peaceful (unless one counts shouting as violence), but of course the media highlight the ones that aren't.

    I will say that the only demo that has really stuck in my mind in a good way was the utterly silent Tamil protest about Srti Lanka outside Parliament - thousands of dignified people quietly carrying banners. I remember a Tory MP and I both agreeing that it had made us look at the issue more closely than we had done.
    It is clear that there have been two very distinct sets of protests in the US. In the day time there have been huge, generally well behaved, well organised protests with mass support which have been commended by the police and the authorities. As those protests have eded and we have moved into the evening, they have been replaced by far more violent protests, often accompanied by looting and arson which are not supported by either the BLM movement or the vast majority of the protestors.

    One of the problems is it appears to me that Trump and others like him seem to be trying to conflate the two separate reactions into one so as to discredit the whole movement.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020


    Perhaps the criteria for hospitalisation has relaxed a bit in some areas? There's a risk that you aren't measuring the same proportion of cases if it has.

    Yep - you can dream up apples and oranges caveats for most of these. For me, total pillar 1 positives is probably the metric least prone to that now (although not the case going back more than 5 weeks).

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442
    Apple da best.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    I like that we are getting these kinds of attacks on Starmer. He's clearly got the Tories rattled. They have had it easy for far too long.

    Indeed. Also the attacks seem quite scattergun, as if they don't realise that the purpose of the letter is the headline and pressure it generates rather than the fine detail of the content. It's a win win situation for Starmer - if Johnson belatedly acts he is following Starmer's prompting and if he doesn't then Johnson is effectively endorsing Trump by his silence.

    I also think that the more the Conservatives attack Starmer directly, the more it will marginalise those within Labour still seeking to undermine his authority. So it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Letters create evidence. You may not be rattled by Starmer, but Johnson clearly is, as are a number of posters on here. I can understand why. He is far smarter than the PM, more on top of his brief and not afraid of a bit of hard work. Since he has become leader, the polls have closed and his personal numbers have become steadily more positive, as have those for the Labour party. It's two months today that he became Labour leader. It's not a bad start.

    Lawyers are focused on looking backwards. Very little evidence of Starmer looking forwards
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    Mr. 86, there's also been much muttering about every case *with* COVID here being described statistically as a death *from* COVID (so if I pummel you to death with a stuff walrus, that counts as a COVID death if your corpse tests positive).

    Of course, if someone just happens to die of something else while suffering from Covid-19, they're rather unfortunate. Being ill tends to stop you from doing dangerous things like walrus-duelling, and if one is ill for, say, 2-3 weeks, the odds of randomly dying from something else during that period are probably very low indeed.

    A death during that period is pointing quite heavily to the virus, although, as you say, it could possibly be due to something else (while isolating at home).
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,407

    Indeed, and that should be cause enough for the Tories to be worried; add to that he seems quite competent and add to that that it is apparent Johnson has no leadership skills, and is looking more idiotic by the day. Starmer is to Johnson what Cameron was to Brown. I would expect a similar result when the time comes, assuming Bozo lasts that long.
    I'd vote Boris over Starmer merely on character though. It's mostly all Boris has got, but that's enough.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442

    But YOU must wear a facemask on public transport - or be fined!

    People are going to get unhappy about this. And soon.
    Nah, they don't want the plague.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Omnium said:

    I'd vote Boris over Starmer merely on character though. It's mostly all Boris has got, but that's enough.

    What’s your definition of character...man of principle or a character good for a laugh?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    eristdoof said:

    Has he subscribed to Amazon Prime?
    He is still as lightweight as a helium balloon.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited June 2020

    But YOU must wear a facemask on public transport - or be fined!

    People are going to get unhappy about this. And soon.
    (Waves from a place where there's a £600 fine for leaving your house without wearing a face mask, no ifs or buts).

    If there's sufficient PPE available, it needs to be as compulsory as possible, with substantial fines for non-compliance. The Tube will be a massive virus-spreading mechanism otherwise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,027

    It is clear that there have been two very distinct sets of protests in the US. In the day time there have been huge, generally well behaved, well organised protests with mass support which have been commended by the police and the authorities. As those protests have eded and we have moved into the evening, they have been replaced by far more violent protests, often accompanied by looting and arson...
    ... or not

    https://twitter.com/benyboi/status/1268342629395292166
This discussion has been closed.