NHS England numbers out - 115 Last 7 days - 97 Spanish Style - 24
No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
Sorry you are wrong.
Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
You have just demonstrated why excess deaths is a more accurate measurement than you favoured 'reported death's' method.
It isn't, it disadvantages countries with a low annual death rate normally for example
It doesn't matter how low or high the starting level average over X number of years is, it is the unexplained deaths over and above that number from which one can extrapolate.
NHS England numbers out - 115 Last 7 days - 97 Spanish Style - 24
No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
Sorry you are wrong.
Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
The Titanic sinking made its passengers more vulnerable but it was still hypothermia and drowning that killed them.
Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.
Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.
Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.
Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?
Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
What is the main reason to work from home?
Is it to avoid the inconvenience of physical distancing, or is it to help reduce the spread of the deadly virus?
MPs should be working from home - as should everyone who is able to do so - to reduce the spread of the deadly virus. The more we can reduce R with simple measures like working from home the greater leeway we have to help businesses which rely on physical presence by loosening other restrictions.
This is not about sharing the pain. This is about making the situation a bit worse or better for everyone else.
The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !
That's nonsense. The US does not want origin removed from labelling where on Earth did you get such an absurd lie from?
Go to America and every damn product in the supermarket is labelled with a USA flag and "Made in America" if it can be.
Its American law that country of origin must be shown on food.
The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !
Like @HYUFD says, if they didn’t want to compete with US factory farming, they should not have voted for the Conservatives or for Leave. They only have themselves to blame.
They might get more access to the vast US market with a trade deal
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
Tories voteshare at Holyrood 2016 22%, Tories voteshare in the last 3 polls for the Holyrood 2021 elections since Jackson Carlaw took over 26%, 23% and 23%
Rees Mogg is the worst. I remember reading about how as a child he turned up at a shareholders' meeting (GEC if I remember correctly) and started berating the chairman over the size of the dividend he'd received on the shares he'd been given by his father. I'm not sure which Viz character he reminds me of most - Spoiled Bastard or Victorian Dad. Either way, he really is a tosser.
Didn't he say once that every time he opened his mouth it meant the Tories losing a vote? I'm not sure what changed between then and him becoming an MP.
I remember him from the Oxford Union. His accent then was a lot "worse" than it is now. As someone from ooop noorth who hadn't met many public school types, it did grate just a little at the time...and he did have a lot to say.
I have some time for the traditionalist approach though. Surely voting by phone takes away some of the supposedly serious nature of parliament? I would say the same for any remote voting (including elections).
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !
That's nonsense. The US does not want origin removed from labelling where on Earth did you get such an absurd lie from?
Go to America and every damn product in the supermarket is labelled with a USA flag and "Made in America" if it can be.
Its American law that country of origin must be shown on food.
It's what the Americans might make the Tories do to UK law that worries me, and many others.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !
Like @HYUFD says, if they didn’t want to compete with US factory farming, they should not have voted for the Conservatives or for Leave. They only have themselves to blame.
They might get more access to the vast US market with a trade deal
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
Tories voteshare at Holyrood 2016 22%, Tories voteshare in the last 3 polls for the Holyrood 2021 elections since Jackson Carlaw took over 26%, 23% and 23%
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
I hadn't thought of that - and what if it is made illegal for people to stand on both constituency and list seats? (Or forbidden by the party, pour encourager lescurrent incumbents*.)
*'titulaires actuels' according to Google translate.
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
Tories voteshare at Holyrood 2016 22%, Tories voteshare in the last 3 polls for the Holyrood 2021 elections since Jackson Carlaw took over 26%, 23% and 23%
Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......
The queueing isn’t the issue.
It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
Same in schools
How many in schools have to shield?
I do.
it is an interesting question, though. The UK has one of the youngest teaching cohorts in Europe, so it would probably be far less contentious, and more effective actually delivering education, to recognise the set of teachers (those over the age of, say, 55, and those with underlying health conditions) who should continue to WFH, and let them continue to do so when everyone else returns.
Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......
The queueing isn’t the issue.
It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
The rest of the country is told to make do - why can't they practice what they preach?
The official advice is still "work from home if you can".
There's a strong argument for MPs to spend less time in Westminster, and more time working in their constituencies, so it's a shame that this has been turned into an argument about working/not working
Indeed, it would be useful for some MPs to permanently spend more time in their constituencies rather than climbing the greasy pole in Westminster.
Perhaps some weeks could be entirely done remotely, with a Westminster week every month.
Rees Mogg is the worst. I remember reading about how as a child he turned up at a shareholders' meeting (GEC if I remember correctly) and started berating the chairman over the size of the dividend he'd received on the shares he'd been given by his father. I'm not sure which Viz character he reminds me of most - Spoiled Bastard or Victorian Dad. Either way, he really is a tosser.
Didn't he say once that every time he opened his mouth it meant the Tories losing a vote? I'm not sure what changed between then and him becoming an MP.
I remember him from the Oxford Union. His accent then was a lot "worse" than it is now. As someone from ooop noorth who hadn't met many public school types, it did grate just a little at the time...and he did have a lot to say.
I have some time for the traditionalist approach though. Surely voting by phone takes away some of the supposedly serious nature of parliament? I would say the same for any remote voting (including elections).
Crowding through division lobbies is 'serious'? What other legislature conducts it's voting like that? Apart possibly from the Democratic Party in Iowa?
NHS England numbers out - 115 Last 7 days - 97 Spanish Style - 24
No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
Sorry you are wrong.
Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
Overall dead people is the stat least likely to be massaged by political influence.
In previous years, most countries won't have thought much about the numbers. So political influence there is also likely not to be a problem.
It may be a lagging stat, but overall deaths against a baseline is going to be by far the best one available for international comparisons (except for China, Russia and maybe India).
It's a simple stat that accounts for both virus deaths, and the plusses and minuses from other causes around the changing circumstances of the past few months.
Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.
Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.
Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.
Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?
Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
The question is whether or not MPs can work remotely, and that's a question that many other people are facing in their workplaces. In many cases, remote work is feasible with the right systems in place, but it's still a management decision as to whether to support those systems. The government and JRM in particular have decided that they don't want to do that. Had they taken the other path, they would have been setting an example of how even old-fashioned institutions can embrace new technology and new working patterns.
I agree with you that if remote working were simply impossible for MPs, then MPs would just have to find a way of making it work. It might even be a catalyst for getting Parliament out of Westminster if it's just too cramped to support a socially-distancing workforce. But if remote working is an option, I don't see why it shouldn't be supported, in any workplace where this applies.
I don't think voting on a mobile phone is the same as doing so in person so its arguable that it isn't an option and I think it shouldn't be supported precisely because part of MPs jobs is representing the people and the people don't have an alternative.
If social distancing in Westminster is too cramped then just how do MPs expect businesses up and down the rest of the country to do their jobs and live their lives socially distanced? People up and down the country are being told this is what they have to do and aren't magically getting bigger buildings to do it in so MPs can do the best with what they've got just like everyone else in the same boat.
Or they can decide socially distanced working isn't viable afterall and drop it for the millions of others being told to get back to work too! Not just themselves.
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
Tories voteshare at Holyrood 2016 22%, Tories voteshare in the last 3 polls for the Holyrood 2021 elections since Jackson Carlaw took over 26%, 23% and 23%
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
Tories voteshare at Holyrood 2016 22%, Tories voteshare in the last 3 polls for the Holyrood 2021 elections since Jackson Carlaw took over 26%, 23% and 23%
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
Incidentally my son and other school staff less than impressed that mp's of all stripes say they can go back to work but that it's too dangerous for MP's to queue.......
The queueing isn’t the issue.
It’s the lack of space to engage in social distancing.
Same in schools
How many in schools have to shield?
I do.
it is an interesting question, though. The UK has one of the youngest teaching cohorts in Europe, so it would probably be far less contentious, and more effective actually delivering education, to recognise the set of teachers (those over the age of, say, 55, and those with underlying health conditions) who should continue to WFH, and let them continue to do so when everyone else returns.
Eldest Grandson's school has organised themselves into three 'bubbles'. He is one of (IIRC) four teachers and a some support staff who ALWAYS teach (etc ) the same group of children. There are two other 'bubbles'. Come the end of term they'll reorganise for normality in September. He says!
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
This is not made up. This may be a concern. The talks are secret so we have no idea.
I don't see anything on that link about country of origin.
Again the US law is that country of origin must be displayed on products so if the secret talks led to an agreement that country of origin can't be displayed then that would violate existing US law.
Canada tried via NAFTA to get the US to drop country of origin labelling and failed to do so, precisely because "Buy American" is so big in American culture and shopping habits. Why do you think American would suddenly change 180 degrees and do a trade deal with us that meant their own law would need to be changed and their own "buy American" campaigns would be illegal there?
Why would Senators for Iowa or Presidential candidates who want to compete in Iowa and many other farming states ever agree to such a deal.
There are things to worry about or have valid concerns over but the idea that there'd be a ban on county of origin labelling is not one of them. That's not just our law but American law too already and something they passionately support - not oppose!
Rees Mogg is the worst. I remember reading about how as a child he turned up at a shareholders' meeting (GEC if I remember correctly) and started berating the chairman over the size of the dividend he'd received on the shares he'd been given by his father. I'm not sure which Viz character he reminds me of most - Spoiled Bastard or Victorian Dad. Either way, he really is a tosser.
Didn't he say once that every time he opened his mouth it meant the Tories losing a vote? I'm not sure what changed between then and him becoming an MP.
I remember him from the Oxford Union. His accent then was a lot "worse" than it is now. As someone from ooop noorth who hadn't met many public school types, it did grate just a little at the time...and he did have a lot to say.
I have some time for the traditionalist approach though. Surely voting by phone takes away some of the supposedly serious nature of parliament? I would say the same for any remote voting (including elections).
Crowding through division lobbies is 'serious'? What other legislature conducts it's voting like that? Apart possibly from the Democratic Party in Iowa?
Most legislatures don't have people voting remotely from a phone whilst wandering about, though.
Even the EU-style voting has its problems. Just sitting there pressing buttons as per your pre-prescribed voting list isn't great (especially when MEPs accidentally press the wrong button).
LOL I heard old baw face Carlaw on radio this morning, he sounded as if he was sooking a bag of lemons. The Tories in Scotland are going to get an awful humping , best they can hope for is that the LOL and a few toffs wanting baubles stick with them. They will be fighting like ferrets in a sack to get on the list and ensure they get some consolation losers seats.
I hadn't thought of that - and what if it is made illegal for people to stand on both constituency and list seats? (Or forbidden by the party, pour encourager lescurrent incumbents*.)
*'titulaires actuels' according to Google translate.
Thank you! Actually this reminds me that the Labour Party in Scotland once followed that variation on the Royal Navy's approach to man management and capturing the Balearics. IIRC the result wasn't any better than Byng's ...
The US wants origin removed from labeling . Farmers have only themselves to blame for believing that the Tories were on their side. Clearly the UK in its desperation to sign a deal with the USA will bend over and get lubed up !
Like @HYUFD says, if they didn’t want to compete with US factory farming, they should not have voted for the Conservatives or for Leave. They only have themselves to blame.
They might get more access to the vast US market with a trade deal
Yet more evidence of the devastating impact of Cummings' self absorption and arrogance has had on the government's standing. Rarely have so many pixels flown in vain.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
This is not made up. This may be a concern. The talks are secret so we have no idea.
I don't see anything on that link about country of origin.
Again the US law is that country of origin must be displayed on products so if the secret talks led to an agreement that country of origin can't be displayed then that would violate existing US law.
Canada tried via NAFTA to get the US to drop country of origin labelling and failed to do so, precisely because "Buy American" is so big in American culture and shopping habits. Why do you think American would suddenly change 180 degrees and do a trade deal with us that meant their own law would need to be changed and their own "buy American" campaigns would be illegal there?
Why would Senators for Iowa or Presidential candidates who want to compete in Iowa and many other farming states ever agree to such a deal.
There are things to worry about or have valid concerns over but the idea that there'd be a ban on county of origin labelling is not one of them. That's not just our law but American law too already and something they passionately support - not oppose!
I was talking about labelling generally, not really country of origin labelling.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
This is not made up. This may be a concern. The talks are secret so we have no idea.
Isn't that a link about the leaked documents Corbyn and friends said showed the NHS was on the table in trade negotiations that actually showed that it wasn't?
Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.
Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.
Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.
Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?
Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
MPs can work remotely.
Much of the country can't and are told to make do.
Either healthy non-shielding MPs can make do too, or the rest of the nation should be given an alternative solution.
NHS England numbers out - 115 Last 7 days - 97 Spanish Style - 24
No doubt those screaming loudest about our relative performance are being quietest about disparity of reporting around the world
The only way to do a comparison worldwide, will be excess deaths.
No, proved and tested and confirmed Covid deaths only
Sorry you are wrong.
Excess deaths may not tell the whole story but it is a much better metric than you suggest because that book can be cooked at will. Take Florida. Over a given time span c4000 pneumonia deaths and c1000 Covid deaths recorded. The same period average for previous years was less than a thousand pneumonia deaths. So Ron, to make his Covid response look better had Covid deaths recorded as pneumonia.
Arguably it was the pneumonia that killed them not the Covid
Yes but they wouldn't have died of pneumonia if they hadn't contracted Covid.
Covid made them more vulnerable but it was still pneumonia that killed them
On that basis we can probably congratulate Boris for keeping the true number of Covid deaths in single figures
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
There is some fabulous academic evidence of this. In surveys people always say "yes, of course I'll support the local economy," and then when they get to the shop they will buy the best value product.
Worrying for Labour after such a bad week for the Tories and they are still not even close. I maintain until Brexit is delivered the Tories will lead the polls, only then might voting patterns change.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
Free choice, free will, free trade.
I support that.
Great in theory, unworkable in practice - but the same was true of communism.
Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.
Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.
Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.
Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?
Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
The question is whether or not MPs can work remotely, and that's a question that many other people are facing in their workplaces. In many cases, remote work is feasible with the right systems in place, but it's still a management decision as to whether to support those systems. The government and JRM in particular have decided that they don't want to do that. Had they taken the other path, they would have been setting an example of how even old-fashioned institutions can embrace new technology and new working patterns.
I agree with you that if remote working were simply impossible for MPs, then MPs would just have to find a way of making it work. It might even be a catalyst for getting Parliament out of Westminster if it's just too cramped to support a socially-distancing workforce. But if remote working is an option, I don't see why it shouldn't be supported, in any workplace where this applies.
I don't think voting on a mobile phone is the same as doing so in person so its arguable that it isn't an option and I think it shouldn't be supported precisely because part of MPs jobs is representing the people and the people don't have an alternative.
If social distancing in Westminster is too cramped then just how do MPs expect businesses up and down the rest of the country to do their jobs and live their lives socially distanced? People up and down the country are being told this is what they have to do and aren't magically getting bigger buildings to do it in so MPs can do the best with what they've got just like everyone else in the same boat.
Or they can decide socially distanced working isn't viable afterall and drop it for the millions of others being told to get back to work too! Not just themselves.
I’m sure the staffers at the Palace of Westminster who catch Covid-19 as a result of this strange form of virtue signalling will take great comfort in the noble principles you espouse.
Rees Mogg is the worst. I remember reading about how as a child he turned up at a shareholders' meeting (GEC if I remember correctly) and started berating the chairman over the size of the dividend he'd received on the shares he'd been given by his father. I'm not sure which Viz character he reminds me of most - Spoiled Bastard or Victorian Dad. Either way, he really is a tosser.
Didn't he say once that every time he opened his mouth it meant the Tories losing a vote? I'm not sure what changed between then and him becoming an MP.
I remember him from the Oxford Union. His accent then was a lot "worse" than it is now. As someone from ooop noorth who hadn't met many public school types, it did grate just a little at the time...and he did have a lot to say.
I have some time for the traditionalist approach though. Surely voting by phone takes away some of the supposedly serious nature of parliament? I would say the same for any remote voting (including elections).
Crowding through division lobbies is 'serious'? What other legislature conducts it's voting like that? Apart possibly from the Democratic Party in Iowa?
Most legislatures don't have people voting remotely from a phone whilst wandering about, though.
Even the EU-style voting has its problems. Just sitting there pressing buttons as per your pre-prescribed voting list isn't great (especially when MEPs accidentally press the wrong button).
Wandering about with a phone in hand isn't what I had in mind as an alternative. Might appeal to likes of Cummings of course Otherwise I take your point, although I believe people have been known to go through the wrong lobby on occasions.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
There is some fabulous academic evidence of this. In surveys people always say "yes, of course I'll support the local economy," and then when they get to the shop they will buy the best value product.
I suspect that has a lot to do with which income bracket you are in
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
This is not made up. This may be a concern. The talks are secret so we have no idea.
I don't see anything on that link about country of origin.
Again the US law is that country of origin must be displayed on products so if the secret talks led to an agreement that country of origin can't be displayed then that would violate existing US law.
Canada tried via NAFTA to get the US to drop country of origin labelling and failed to do so, precisely because "Buy American" is so big in American culture and shopping habits. Why do you think American would suddenly change 180 degrees and do a trade deal with us that meant their own law would need to be changed and their own "buy American" campaigns would be illegal there?
Why would Senators for Iowa or Presidential candidates who want to compete in Iowa and many other farming states ever agree to such a deal.
There are things to worry about or have valid concerns over but the idea that there'd be a ban on county of origin labelling is not one of them. That's not just our law but American law too already and something they passionately support - not oppose!
I was talking about labelling generally, not really country of origin labelling.
Also basic standards are a worry. Not just labelling.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
There is some fabulous academic evidence of this. In surveys people always say "yes, of course I'll support the local economy," and then when they get to the shop they will buy the best value product.
That should be their right to choose.
Though given that free range eggs and red tractor food etc are popular I don't see them vanishing given an alternative. If they need to be more price competitive then that's a good thing.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
Slightly disagree with you. People don't generally buy cheapest, they buy what they consider the best value for money. A consideration there might be reliability or brand recognition. This was the reason why people chose to buy BMWs rather than good old British Leyland. The Austin Allegro eh, now there is a vehicle to get Brexiters hearts racing. It might be shit, and break down all the time, but by jingo, it is made in Britain!
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
Because in the REAL WORLD @Philip_Thompson, people will generally choose the cheapest. You may not remember the times in the 1970s when the last "Buy British" campaign was tried and people bought cheaper stuff from abroad.
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
There is some fabulous academic evidence of this. In surveys people always say "yes, of course I'll support the local economy," and then when they get to the shop they will buy the best value product.
It's literally the point of tariffs, isn't it? Make products from overseas more expensive to stop people going for the cheaper option.
Worrying for Labour after such a bad week for the Tories and they are still not even close. I maintain until Brexit is delivered the Tories will lead the polls, only then might voting patterns change.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
If that were the case we should be banning roducts from most EU countries and only importing from those with the same welfare standards as ourselves.
@Scott_xP set the bar earlier by pooh poohing Boris for getting the Tories best ever share of the Welsh vote at a GE
You think that poll predicted a previous result?
Wow, just how dumb are you?
No I mocked your "Boris reaches the parts other Tories cant" remark, when "Boris" has just recorded the party's best ever result in the region we are discussing.
As it happens, the poll gave Boris' Tories 35%, which is 1% below the actual result, and would still be their best ever share in a GE
Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.
Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.
Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.
Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.
The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.
MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.
The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.
He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).
Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
HY is a blood and soil nationalist.
You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
I think it was him being Labour that caused that.
What, not him being a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'?
You think the main reason for them supposedly "screaming their heads off" was because he was Scottish?
Who said main? I think it was a factor. Unlike Blair, Brown was very identifiably Scottish, regardless of all the Gascoigne goal luvvin', Arctic Monkeys fandom pish he tried. Of course the opposite also applies, why do you think David 'English' Cameron was kept away from any real live Jocks during the indy campaign?
I thought it was a mistake not using Cameron more during the campaign. For all that I was not a fan, he was a good speechmaker, and the one speech he made to an audience of corporates in Edinburgh was well done. I watched it with a Scottish colleague who afterwards said 'there, that was all he needed to say'. I also didn't see any harm in him being publicly heckled - Blair would have just gone for it and got some sympathy out of it.
I completely disagree with you about Brown's Scottishness getting him abused. There's a huge perception gap here between slight intended and slight taken and internalised. It is very hard for an English person who hasn't spent time in Scotland to understand.
I was on a different politics blog back then and I can certainly recall that Brown being a Scot - or more accurately being both Brown AND a Scot - was a source of much negative sentiment from a particular type of (nearly always male) English Tory.
FPT Interestingly Mr Blair, who was born in Scotland, never seemed to attract that animus (or at least the non-Brownian bit).
Edit: but he didn't sound like it - and you can't imagine him as the son of the Manse or Rector in the Edin Uni Union at Bristo.
Blair was just not seen as a Scot in any way.
With Brown, as I recall, it was a combination of things. He was viewed as hardcore Scottish, that was key, and with this being at the time of the Crash, and with him being strongly associated with it, a view gained traction in right wing blogging circles that a sinister, very secretive Caledonian Nexus revolving around him, Darling, Goodwin, RBS, HBOS had "done us up like a kipper". They had gotten hold of a perfectly good English bank, NatWest, and ruined it. They had forced another perfectly good English bank, Lloyds, to swallow the poison of HBOS and ruined it too. They had blown up RBS and then stuck the English taxpayer with the bill for the bailout. Did all this quite deliberately and enjoyed every minute of it, whilst wearing kilts, eating haggis neeps and tatties, and playing the bagpipes.
Re the thread, yes I agree that the Government's reaction to the virus will probably be one of those traumatic events that will remain with voters for years and will impact on the outcome of the next election. The parallel which the Tories will fear is that of Black Wednesday in 1992 which served to undermine their claims to economic competence all the way up to the 1997 general election. The response to the virus is undermining any possible idea that Johnson runs a generally competent government, such has been the shambles witnessed on multiple fronts.
In political terms, the impact will get worse for Johnson. There is a deep recession on the horizon and the question is whether the Conservatives will be blamed for its depth not least on account of their mistakes having led to the UK being late out of the lockdown.
Yesterday saw another 359 deaths confirmed by testing in the UK. That was more than the total recorded for the rest of Europe combined.
OK, if it makes you feel any better I'm not really bothered to argue with the nuance of that point. It would still means that the UK's total of daily deaths was yesterday "only" nearly as high as the total that should have been recorded for the rest of Europe combined. Ahem indeed.
What I'm not prepared to accept is that the death statistics as a whole including those on excess deaths do anything other than support the claim that the UK's response to the virus has led to outcomes worse than anywhere else in Europe.
No -you missed it. it's not "nearly" and "nuance"; it's a steaming pile of bullshit,
Nearly all of the 359 deaths in the number are from the previous fortnight, and the comparison is entirely spurious. The actual number of deaths from yesterday was 20, which will increase as others move through the process and we may have some idea of perhaps 90% of the total in 7 days.
On this one Guido is correct in skewering Newsnight, whose reporting was misleading to (and perhaps beyond) the point off dishonesty. But he diidn't skewer them enough.
They talked about "daily deaths" with the totally misrepresented numbers for their tabloid splash, then went into a spiel about how important it was to be careful.
Just a shitty news report. I don't really know how the Newsnight Editor can sleep at night.
FPT
Actually, the more I look at it, the basis of Guido's objection seems to be a load of "bullshit". You are too trusting of that site.
It's hardly news that the lag in the system the 359 UK deaths reported yesterday were deaths which occurred over the previous fortnight, most within the past few days. That's because of the time lag in UK reporting.
It is however a perfectly reasonable to use that to make comparisons with other European countries, because they too must experience lags between the date of death and the date it is reported.
The only point of substance contained in Guido's report is that the source website (Worldometer) has been dissed by a rival website whose rival data manager claims that the data on his site (Our World in Data) is better, which is not that surprising given that to say the opposite would damage his career prospects. Yet the actual differences are minimal - for Spain 27,940 cumulative deaths on Our World in Data compared to 27,128 on Worldometer or less than a 3% diffrence, with the figures on both the same for the UK. So very similar, not different.
(Allen is president of the Brookings Institution, a retired U.S. Marine Corps four-star general, and former commander of the NATO International Security Assistance Force and U.S. Forces in Afghanistan.)
Wot about the leadership polls though? As Mike often points out these are a better indicator. Johnson is becoming an even bigger joke than I feared he would be. Memes about earpieces or empty skulls will eventually feed through to the popular subconscious. Those that follow things a little closer will realise the emperor has no leadership skills.
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
I think there should be minimum standards but I think the minimum standards might be below what other people choose and they can make a free choice to go higher if need be. EG I'm content for free range eggs to be a choice rather than the law.
Fox cubs are particularly playful, but they make a hell of a mess. Buggers have dug up half my lawn.
When there are young the end of the garden is like an abattoir, but they do bring us a fine collection of other stuff. Ignoring the usual shiny items we get hundreds of golf balls, balls of all different sizes as well, lots of gloves and shoes and a pair of orange goggles. Last week we had goats cheese and a loaf of bread, also a bag of celery.
We are thinking about cutting down on the Sainsbury's shop.
I'll care about chlorinated chicken the moment we remove chlorine from our drinking water from the tap.
As I pointed out to my other half, she could feed US chicken to my daughter every day for the rest of he life and my daughter would still swallow less chlorine than when my wife took her to swimming club for 15 years.
Wot about the leadership polls though? As Mike often points out these are a better indicator. Johnson is becoming an even bigger joke than I feared he would be. Memes about earpieces or empty skulls will eventually feed through to the popular subconscious. Those that follow things a little closer will realise the emperor has no leadership skills.
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
Wot about the leadership polls though? As Mike often points out these are a better indicator. Johnson is becoming an even bigger joke than I feared he would be. Memes about earpieces or empty skulls will eventually feed through to the popular subconscious. Those that follow things a little closer will realise the emperor has no leadership skills.
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
Is it possible his earpiece is actually a hearing aid? (following on the discussion on the previous thread). I haven't seen it so I can't tell.
Worrying for Labour after such a bad week for the Tories and they are still not even close. I maintain until Brexit is delivered the Tories will lead the polls, only then might voting patterns change.
I suspect they'll be looking at the near 20pt drop since the start of April, and not be too worried about 1pt here or there (and bear in mind this company reported a 6 pt drop over the period when the Cumming saga was at it's height. During this period the main news has been lockdown being loosened).
The Brexit stuff is likely to unwind over the parliament - hopefully in a couple of years what Remainers/Leavers think won't be relevant.
Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.
Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.
Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.
Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.
The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.
MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.
The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.
He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).
Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
HY is a blood and soil nationalist.
You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
I think it was him being Labour that caused that.
What, not him being a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'?
You think the main reason for them supposedly "screaming their heads off" was because he was Scottish?
Who said main? I think it was a factor. Unlike Blair, Brown was very identifiably Scottish, regardless of all the Gascoigne goal luvvin', Arctic Monkeys fandom pish he tried. Of course the opposite also applies, why do you think David 'English' Cameron was kept away from any real live Jocks during the indy campaign?
I thought it was a mistake not using Cameron more during the campaign. For all that I was not a fan, he was a good speechmaker, and the one speech he made to an audience of corporates in Edinburgh was well done. I watched it with a Scottish colleague who afterwards said 'there, that was all he needed to say'. I also didn't see any harm in him being publicly heckled - Blair would have just gone for it and got some sympathy out of it.
I completely disagree with you about Brown's Scottishness getting him abused. There's a huge perception gap here between slight intended and slight taken and internalised. It is very hard for an English person who hasn't spent time in Scotland to understand.
I was on a different politics blog back then and I can certainly recall that Brown being a Scot - or more accurately being both Brown AND a Scot - was a source of much negative sentiment from a particular type of (nearly always male) English Tory.
FPT Interestingly Mr Blair, who was born in Scotland, never seemed to attract that animus (or at least the non-Brownian bit).
Edit: but he didn't sound like it - and you can't imagine him as the son of the Manse or Rector in the Edin Uni Union at Bristo.
Blair was just not seen as a Scot in any way.
With Brown, as I recall, it was a combination of things. He was viewed as hardcore Scottish, that was key, and with this being at the time of the Crash, and with him being strongly associated with it, a view gained traction in right wing blogging circles that a sinister, very secretive Caledonian Nexus revolving around him, Darling, Goodwin, RBS, HBOS had "done us up like a kipper". They had gotten hold of a perfectly good English bank, NatWest, and ruined it. They had forced another perfectly good English bank, Lloyds, to swallow the poison of HBOS and ruined it too. They had blown up RBS and then stuck the English taxpayer with the bill for the bailout. Did all this quite deliberately and enjoyed every minute of it, whilst wearing kilts, eating haggis neeps and tatties, and playing the bagpipes.
That's absolutely ridiculous. No one enjoys anyone playing the bagpipes.
Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.
Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.
Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.
Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.
The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.
MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.
The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.
He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).
Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
HY is a blood and soil nationalist.
You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
I think it was him being Labour that caused that.
What, not him being a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'?
You think the main reason for them supposedly "screaming their heads off" was because he was Scottish?
Who said main? I think it was a factor. Unlike Blair, Brown was very identifiably Scottish, regardless of all the Gascoigne goal luvvin', Arctic Monkeys fandom pish he tried. Of course the opposite also applies, why do you think David 'English' Cameron was kept away from any real live Jocks during the indy campaign?
I thought it was a mistake not using Cameron more during the campaign. For all that I was not a fan, he was a good speechmaker, and the one speech he made to an audience of corporates in Edinburgh was well done. I watched it with a Scottish colleague who afterwards said 'there, that was all he needed to say'. I also didn't see any harm in him being publicly heckled - Blair would have just gone for it and got some sympathy out of it.
I completely disagree with you about Brown's Scottishness getting him abused. There's a huge perception gap here between slight intended and slight taken and internalised. It is very hard for an English person who hasn't spent time in Scotland to understand.
I was on a different politics blog back then and I can certainly recall that Brown being a Scot - or more accurately being both Brown AND a Scot - was a source of much negative sentiment from a particular type of (nearly always male) English Tory.
FPT Interestingly Mr Blair, who was born in Scotland, never seemed to attract that animus (or at least the non-Brownian bit).
Edit: but he didn't sound like it - and you can't imagine him as the son of the Manse or Rector in the Edin Uni Union at Bristo.
Blair was just not seen as a Scot in any way.
With Brown, as I recall, it was a combination of things. He was viewed as hardcore Scottish, that was key, and with this being at the time of the Crash, and with him being strongly associated with it, a view gained traction in right wing blogging circles that a sinister, very secretive Caledonian Nexus revolving around him, Darling, Goodwin, RBS, HBOS had "done us up like a kipper". They had gotten hold of a perfectly good English bank, NatWest, and ruined it. They had forced another perfectly good English bank, Lloyds, to swallow the poison of HBOS and ruined it too. They had blown up RBS and then stuck the English taxpayer with the bill for the bailout. Did all this quite deliberately and enjoyed every minute of it, whilst wearing kilts, eating haggis neeps and tatties, and playing the bagpipes.
Thanks for that - very useful to have a neutral, so to speak, point of view to confirm or correct one's memories.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
If that were the case we should be banning roducts from most EU countries and only importing from those with the same welfare standards as ourselves.
I would happy with that. Presumably that is a freedom we now have thanks to Brexit. But it's interesting that we are using that freedom to open our markets to a country with even worse standards, which I think tells us what Brexit is really about.
Fox cubs are particularly playful, but they make a hell of a mess. Buggers have dug up half my lawn.
When there are young the end of the garden is like an abattoir, but they do bring us a fine collection of other stuff. Ignoring the usual shiny items we get hundreds of golf balls, balls of all different sizes as well, lots of gloves and shoes and a pair of orange goggles. Last week we had goats cheese and a loaf of bread, also a bag of celery.
We are thinking about cutting down on the Sainsbury's shop.
You're lucky. We've had dirty nappies from the neighbour's bin, which they seem to take a particular delight in. Being omnivores...
Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.
Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.
Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.
Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.
The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.
MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.
The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.
He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).
Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
HY is a blood and soil nationalist.
You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
I think it was him being Labour that caused that.
What, not him being a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'?
You think the main reason for them supposedly "screaming their heads off" was because he was Scottish?
Who said main? I think it was a factor. Unlike Blair, Brown was very identifiably Scottish, regardless of all the Gascoigne goal luvvin', Arctic Monkeys fandom pish he tried. Of course the opposite also applies, why do you think David 'English' Cameron was kept away from any real live Jocks during the indy campaign?
I thought it was a mistake not using Cameron more during the campaign. For all that I was not a fan, he was a good speechmaker, and the one speech he made to an audience of corporates in Edinburgh was well done. I watched it with a Scottish colleague who afterwards said 'there, that was all he needed to say'. I also didn't see any harm in him being publicly heckled - Blair would have just gone for it and got some sympathy out of it.
I completely disagree with you about Brown's Scottishness getting him abused. There's a huge perception gap here between slight intended and slight taken and internalised. It is very hard for an English person who hasn't spent time in Scotland to understand.
I was on a different politics blog back then and I can certainly recall that Brown being a Scot - or more accurately being both Brown AND a Scot - was a source of much negative sentiment from a particular type of (nearly always male) English Tory.
FPT Interestingly Mr Blair, who was born in Scotland, never seemed to attract that animus (or at least the non-Brownian bit).
Edit: but he didn't sound like it - and you can't imagine him as the son of the Manse or Rector in the Edin Uni Union at Bristo.
Blair was just not seen as a Scot in any way.
With Brown, as I recall, it was a combination of things. He was viewed as hardcore Scottish, that was key, and with this being at the time of the Crash, and with him being strongly associated with it, a view gained traction in right wing blogging circles that a sinister, very secretive Caledonian Nexus revolving around him, Darling, Goodwin, RBS, HBOS had "done us up like a kipper". They had gotten hold of a perfectly good English bank, NatWest, and ruined it. They had forced another perfectly good English bank, Lloyds, to swallow the poison of HBOS and ruined it too. They had blown up RBS and then stuck the English taxpayer with the bill for the bailout. Did all this quite deliberately and enjoyed every minute of it, whilst wearing kilts, eating haggis neeps and tatties, and playing the bagpipes.
That's absolutely ridiculous. No one enjoys anyone playing the bagpipes.
Personally I think its wrong for MPs to tell the rest of us we need to go back to work in a socially distanced manner which is impossible for a lot of businesses, only for them not to be willing to do the same thing. Not everyone can live their lives remotely on computers.
Is HMG telling people who can quite adequately work remotely, eg MPs, that they should get back to commuting to workplaces? I knew they were a bit crap but I didn't think they were quite that disastrously shyte.
Oh, Rees-Mogg's involved, I see now.
They're telling people who can't work remotely to go back to work and make do. They should do the same. They should live how they preach for the millions of people who can't work remotely. If social distancing is a PITA then get used to it, the rest of the nation has to do so.
Why should businesses that rely upon customers be faced with losing business support, furlough ending, be told they need to simply reopen socially distanced -but social distancing is too much of a PITA for MPs?
Why is social distancing good enough for the public but MPs are too special and precious to waste their time socially distancing?
The question is whether or not MPs can work remotely, and that's a question that many other people are facing in their workplaces. In many cases, remote work is feasible with the right systems in place, but it's still a management decision as to whether to support those systems. The government and JRM in particular have decided that they don't want to do that. Had they taken the other path, they would have been setting an example of how even old-fashioned institutions can embrace new technology and new working patterns.
I agree with you that if remote working were simply impossible for MPs, then MPs would just have to find a way of making it work. It might even be a catalyst for getting Parliament out of Westminster if it's just too cramped to support a socially-distancing workforce. But if remote working is an option, I don't see why it shouldn't be supported, in any workplace where this applies.
I don't think voting on a mobile phone is the same as doing so in person so its arguable that it isn't an option and I think it shouldn't be supported precisely because part of MPs jobs is representing the people and the people don't have an alternative.
If social distancing in Westminster is too cramped then just how do MPs expect businesses up and down the rest of the country to do their jobs and live their lives socially distanced? People up and down the country are being told this is what they have to do and aren't magically getting bigger buildings to do it in so MPs can do the best with what they've got just like everyone else in the same boat.
Or they can decide socially distanced working isn't viable afterall and drop it for the millions of others being told to get back to work too! Not just themselves.
I’m sure the staffers at the Palace of Westminster who catch Covid-19 as a result of this strange form of virtue signalling will take great comfort in the noble principles you espouse.
Is your argument that social distancing isn't safe?
If so,why is social distancing being required for millions of others?
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
I think there should be minimum standards but I think the minimum standards might be below what other people choose and they can make a free choice to go higher if need be. EG I'm content for free range eggs to be a choice rather than the law.
Labelling is key. If people want to avoid US chicken, they have to be aware of it.
It will be interesting to see the "that's not my Brexit" from the West Country etc.
I'll care about chlorinated chicken the moment we remove chlorine from our drinking water from the tap.
As I pointed out to my other half, she could feed US chicken to my daughter every day for the rest of he life and my daughter would still swallow less chlorine than when my wife took her to swimming club for 15 years.
That is not the issue with chlorinated chicken though. It is an animal welfare issue leading to the need to use chlorine.
Wot about the leadership polls though? As Mike often points out these are a better indicator. Johnson is becoming an even bigger joke than I feared he would be. Memes about earpieces or empty skulls will eventually feed through to the popular subconscious. Those that follow things a little closer will realise the emperor has no leadership skills.
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
Not the twitter memes! how will they cope with their massive polling lead.
It's as if the left never learn, Boris had endless memes last year too and won a landslide. Leadership polls will mean a lot less than VI if Boris doesn't fight 2024 so Im not sure Labour can take too much heart from that.
I'll care about chlorinated chicken the moment we remove chlorine from our drinking water from the tap.
It's not the chlorine but the cholera/E. coli 0147 that is the nub of the matter.
@Philip_Thompson : you always give me a laugh when I come in here. Any chlorine in tap water is at 0.5mg/l, it is exceptionally safe; safer than bottled water.
Wot about the leadership polls though? As Mike often points out these are a better indicator. Johnson is becoming an even bigger joke than I feared he would be. Memes about earpieces or empty skulls will eventually feed through to the popular subconscious. Those that follow things a little closer will realise the emperor has no leadership skills.
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
Is it possible his earpiece is actually a hearing aid? (following on the discussion on the previous thread). I haven't seen it so I can't tell.
A much more likely, and sad for the PM on a personal level, explanation I think.
Wot about the leadership polls though? As Mike often points out these are a better indicator. Johnson is becoming an even bigger joke than I feared he would be. Memes about earpieces or empty skulls will eventually feed through to the popular subconscious. Those that follow things a little closer will realise the emperor has no leadership skills.
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
Not the twitter memes! how will they cope with their massive polling lead.
It's as if the left never learn, Boris had endless memes last year too and won a landslide. Leadership polls will mean a lot less than VI if Boris doesn't fight 2024 so Im not sure Labour can take too much heart from that.
Boris is still polling higher than any Tory leader has got at a general election since Thatcher
Jackson Carlaw, Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. twisting the knife into BoZo’s belly just now on BBC Radio Scotland. He says, repeatedly, that he is “not wholly convinced” by Dominic Cummings’ explanation for his actions.
Classic code for “the man’s a liar”.
Astonishingly, Carlaw has not spoken to his boss BoZo in months. They have only exchanged two text messages since The Clown was released from hospital.
Carlaw sounds like a drowning man, unable to affect either his opponents nor his (supposed) allies.
The Milton Keynes appointee is a real kick in the groin.
MK? *googles for land of concrete coos* Ah - now I see. Blood is sure thicker than residence when it comes to Tories. But what a dunt in the baws to the actual Scottish Tories. Remiunds me of the day when the Scottish Office was run by a MP from Weston-Super-Mare IIRC.
The new Scottish office minister was born in Hamilton and went to school in Glasgow.
He is Scottish, he just represents an English seat
Your lot howled when Labour and LD MPs from Scotland voted on English matters (a sentiment the SNP entirely sympathise with).
Also - do you think race/genetics/blood rather than voter representation is more important?
That's a point. Presumably the new under-assistant, deputy panjandrum won't be voting on the Scotland only matters that he's supposed to be helping to formulate?
HY is a blood and soil nationalist.
You gotta laugh at Tories. Remember when they screamed their heads off at a jock being their prime minister.
I think it was him being Labour that caused that.
What, not him being a 'one-eyed Scottish idiot'?
You think the main reason for them supposedly "screaming their heads off" was because he was Scottish?
Who said main? I think it was a factor. Unlike Blair, Brown was very identifiably Scottish, regardless of all the Gascoigne goal luvvin', Arctic Monkeys fandom pish he tried. Of course the opposite also applies, why do you think David 'English' Cameron was kept away from any real live Jocks during the indy campaign?
I thought it was a mistake not using Cameron more during the campaign. For all that I was not a fan, he was a good speechmaker, and the one speech he made to an audience of corporates in Edinburgh was well done. I watched it with a Scottish colleague who afterwards said 'there, that was all he needed to say'. I also didn't see any harm in him being publicly heckled - Blair would have just gone for it and got some sympathy out of it.
I completely disagree with you about Brown's Scottishness getting him abused. There's a huge perception gap here between slight intended and slight taken and internalised. It is very hard for an English person who hasn't spent time in Scotland to understand.
I was on a different politics blog back then and I can certainly recall that Brown being a Scot - or more accurately being both Brown AND a Scot - was a source of much negative sentiment from a particular type of (nearly always male) English Tory.
FPT Interestingly Mr Blair, who was born in Scotland, never seemed to attract that animus (or at least the non-Brownian bit).
Edit: but he didn't sound like it - and you can't imagine him as the son of the Manse or Rector in the Edin Uni Union at Bristo.
Blair was just not seen as a Scot in any way.
With Brown, as I recall, it was a combination of things. He was viewed as hardcore Scottish, that was key, and with this being at the time of the Crash, and with him being strongly associated with it, a view gained traction in right wing blogging circles that a sinister, very secretive Caledonian Nexus revolving around him, Darling, Goodwin, RBS, HBOS had "done us up like a kipper". They had gotten hold of a perfectly good English bank, NatWest, and ruined it. They had forced another perfectly good English bank, Lloyds, to swallow the poison of HBOS and ruined it too. They had blown up RBS and then stuck the English taxpayer with the bill for the bailout. Did all this quite deliberately and enjoyed every minute of it, whilst wearing kilts, eating haggis neeps and tatties, and playing the bagpipes.
That's absolutely ridiculous. No one enjoys anyone playing the bagpipes.
Even under the tariff plan chicken and beef imported from the USA will still be cheaper than that produced in the UK.
Amazing how quickly the UK folded . Time to order the gimp suit !
So we're going to get cheaper food is what you're saying?
Good. That's what the Kiwis did - abolish tariffs, abolish subsidies, told their farmers to make do without any of that. And they're still exporters.
The food will be cheaper because it will not meet current animal care standards. UK farmers will clearly have to have the standards they work to lowered as well if they are to compete. My guess is that this will not be popular even if it does lower prices a little. We shall see. Luckily - like the people inflicting this on us - I will still be able to buy the good stuff for my family.
Or UK farmers will maintain current standards and consumers can make the choice to buy Red Tractor approved products. Just like we already can do.
I buy Free Range eggs and Red Tractor food even though cheaper caged eggs and cheaper lower standard food is available. People can make a free choice in a free society.
Except they won't be able to make a choice to ban cruel practices in farming if we do the kind of nasty deal with the US that American agribusiness interests are aggressively pushing for. Or are you advocating a free for all with no animal welfare standards at all?
Why won't they be able to make that choice for what they consume? Will free range and Red Tractor etc cease to be an option? Why would that happen?
My point is that consumers shouldn't be allowed to buy products that inflict excessive cruelty on animals. It sounds like you think bear baiting should be brought back as long as there were demand for it.
If that were the case we should be banning roducts from most EU countries and only importing from those with the same welfare standards as ourselves.
I would happy with that. Presumably that is a freedom we now have thanks to Brexit. But it's interesting that we are using that freedom to open our markets to a country with even worse standards, which I think tells us what Brexit is really about.
Yes, I'd be more for highwer welfare standards and taxing the ass off crap.
But then I don't live on a tight budget so its easy for me to say.
Comments
Is it to avoid the inconvenience of physical distancing, or is it to help reduce the spread of the deadly virus?
MPs should be working from home - as should everyone who is able to do so - to reduce the spread of the deadly virus. The more we can reduce R with simple measures like working from home the greater leeway we have to help businesses which rely on physical presence by loosening other restrictions.
This is not about sharing the pain. This is about making the situation a bit worse or better for everyone else.
Go to America and every damn product in the supermarket is labelled with a USA flag and "Made in America" if it can be.
Its American law that country of origin must be shown on food.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election
I remember him from the Oxford Union. His accent then was a lot "worse" than it is now. As someone from ooop noorth who hadn't met many public school types, it did grate just a little at the time...and he did have a lot to say.
I have some time for the traditionalist approach though. Surely voting by phone takes away some of the supposedly serious nature of parliament? I would say the same for any remote voting (including elections).
This is not made up. This may be a concern. The talks are secret so we have no idea.
The UK has one of the youngest teaching cohorts in Europe, so it would probably be far less contentious, and more effective actually delivering education, to recognise the set of teachers (those over the age of, say, 55, and those with underlying health conditions) who should continue to WFH, and let them continue to do so when everyone else returns.
Perhaps some weeks could be entirely done remotely, with a Westminster week every month.
It's a simple stat that accounts for both virus deaths, and the plusses and minuses from other causes around the changing circumstances of the past few months.
If social distancing in Westminster is too cramped then just how do MPs expect businesses up and down the rest of the country to do their jobs and live their lives socially distanced? People up and down the country are being told this is what they have to do and aren't magically getting bigger buildings to do it in so MPs can do the best with what they've got just like everyone else in the same boat.
Or they can decide socially distanced working isn't viable afterall and drop it for the millions of others being told to get back to work too! Not just themselves.
Where there is relatively little testing .... not so much. Ecuador and Peru for example, the real death count is at least triple the formal numbers.
https://twitter.com/Sotherans/status/1268301353073295360
@Scott_xP set the bar earlier by pooh poohing Boris for getting the Tories best ever share of the Welsh vote at a GE
If Covid decimates the economy and then Brexit messes it up further, then people will buy the cheapest stuff they can get. They will have no choice.
Got the bit between my teeth now I know how to do this images lark and just learnt how to set up YouTube.
Fox cubs feeding. The den is under my compost heap. Filmed last year, but they are here every year.
https://youtu.be/CUOKApF-1K0
Again the US law is that country of origin must be displayed on products so if the secret talks led to an agreement that country of origin can't be displayed then that would violate existing US law.
Canada tried via NAFTA to get the US to drop country of origin labelling and failed to do so, precisely because "Buy American" is so big in American culture and shopping habits. Why do you think American would suddenly change 180 degrees and do a trade deal with us that meant their own law would need to be changed and their own "buy American" campaigns would be illegal there?
Why would Senators for Iowa or Presidential candidates who want to compete in Iowa and many other farming states ever agree to such a deal.
There are things to worry about or have valid concerns over but the idea that there'd be a ban on county of origin labelling is not one of them. That's not just our law but American law too already and something they passionately support - not oppose!
Even the EU-style voting has its problems. Just sitting there pressing buttons as per your pre-prescribed voting list isn't great (especially when MEPs accidentally press the wrong button).
I support that.
Wow, just how dumb are you?
Thankfully you are not in charge.
Otherwise I take your point, although I believe people have been known to go through the wrong lobby on occasions.
Though given that free range eggs and red tractor food etc are popular I don't see them vanishing given an alternative. If they need to be more price competitive then that's a good thing.
Fox cubs are particularly playful, but they make a hell of a mess. Buggers have dug up half my lawn.
As it happens, the poll gave Boris' Tories 35%, which is 1% below the actual result, and would still be their best ever share in a GE
If you don't understand it, that's fine.
With Brown, as I recall, it was a combination of things. He was viewed as hardcore Scottish, that was key, and with this being at the time of the Crash, and with him being strongly associated with it, a view gained traction in right wing blogging circles that a sinister, very secretive Caledonian Nexus revolving around him, Darling, Goodwin, RBS, HBOS had "done us up like a kipper". They had gotten hold of a perfectly good English bank, NatWest, and ruined it. They had forced another perfectly good English bank, Lloyds, to swallow the poison of HBOS and ruined it too. They had blown up RBS and then stuck the English taxpayer with the bill for the bailout. Did all this quite deliberately and enjoyed every minute of it, whilst wearing kilts, eating haggis neeps and tatties, and playing the bagpipes.
Actually, the more I look at it, the basis of Guido's objection seems to be a load of "bullshit". You are too trusting of that site.
It's hardly news that the lag in the system the 359 UK deaths reported yesterday were deaths which occurred over the previous fortnight, most within the past few days. That's because of the time lag in UK reporting.
It is however a perfectly reasonable to use that to make comparisons with other European countries, because they too must experience lags between the date of death and the date it is reported.
The only point of substance contained in Guido's report is that the source website (Worldometer) has been dissed by a rival website whose rival data manager claims that the data on his site (Our World in Data) is better, which is not that surprising given that to say the opposite would damage his career prospects. Yet the actual differences are minimal - for Spain 27,940 cumulative deaths on Our World in Data compared to 27,128 on Worldometer or less than a 3% diffrence, with the figures on both the same for the UK. So very similar, not different.
https://twitter.com/JesseLehrich/status/1268375305665773568
(Allen is president of the Brookings Institution, a retired U.S. Marine Corps four-star general, and former commander of the NATO International Security Assistance Force and U.S. Forces in Afghanistan.)
Every week that goes past his incompetence will become more visible. Tories of today will join ex-Tories like myself who rue the day when the dumber section of the party membership foisted him on us.
We are thinking about cutting down on the Sainsbury's shop.
The Brexit stuff is likely to unwind over the parliament - hopefully in a couple of years what Remainers/Leavers think won't be relevant.
We've had dirty nappies from the neighbour's bin, which they seem to take a particular delight in. Being omnivores...
If so,why is social distancing being required for millions of others?
It will be interesting to see the "that's not my Brexit" from the West Country etc.
It's as if the left never learn, Boris had endless memes last year too and won a landslide. Leadership polls will mean a lot less than VI if Boris doesn't fight 2024 so Im not sure Labour can take too much heart from that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGFJaPHlEeQ
But then I don't live on a tight budget so its easy for me to say.