politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With the Cummings lockdown saga now in its seventh day some bi

Anabobazina said:

Cyclefree said:

Mortimer said:

Cyclefree said:

Flatlander said:

Cyclefree said:

Sandpit said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Cyclefree said:

NickPalmer said:

Alistair said:

eristdoof said:

edmundintokyo said:

Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.

You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.

Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.

morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.

Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.

Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)

I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.

Not that it matters now!

Starmer should focus on two things now:-

1. The lockdown easing measures and, in particular, whether they are being applied fairly. Or intelligently. See what I have already said about the absurdity of opening indoor shops before outside venues. Or allowing people to congregate in gardens but not go to a pub with a garden. Plus why the 2-metre advice (it’s not a rule) when most of Europe has it down to 1 metre.

2. Sunak’s plans to stop furlough, particularly the rumoured idea of asking businesses legally prevented from opening to pay 20% of wages and NI when they don’t have any income.

Completely agree with both points.
Allowing outside venues for pubs and restaurants and meeting up under strict guidelines would make people far happier with continuing social distancing, and looks to be significantly safer than small indoor shops.

One sensible step might be a relaxation of licensing laws, that would allow an existing licensee to set up a temporary bar in a nearby park, field or car park, using a van, tent or market stall structure. Anyone who’s walked up the hill from Twickenham station to the stadium on a match day will know what I mean

My daughter has applied to vary her licence so that she can sell alcohol as an off licence and the authorities insisted that it can only be with food. Why? No good reason given.

It is absurd. The authorities are deliberately making it hard for such businesses to have a fighting chance to survive.

And to answer @Richard_Nabavi’s point: people who drink alcohol in their garden can get just as smashed as easily as in a pub. There is no logical or scientific rationale for allowing people to meet and drink in their gardens and not allowing them to meet and drink in a pub or restaurant garden. None.

Surely it is the shared toilet facilities that is the problem? The more people you have in one place, the more mixing there is going to be. In a garden you are at least limiting contacts to a single group.

There is definitely a difference.

Oh - do most people have separate ladies and men’s loos in their homes?

No. However, many private houses have more than one lav, and even if they dont (like mine, for example) people's toilets are not used by as many people as would be in a shared space like a pub or restaurant.

There are ways round this. Like hiring a Portaloo.

These just sound like excuses not to help a sector that will otherwise die and which employs a hell of a lot of jobs in areas which don’t have many alternatives.

Let’s not make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Mortimer is a nice chap, but he is a young fogey that really doesn't get the pub thing. At all.

He criticised me several times for contending that they are the backbone of Britain – core to our national heritage – and argued that they could be replaced by dinner parties.

So, I wouldn't waste your pixels on him on this particular debate.

He may have more to offer on other discussions.

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

Socky said:

Beibheirli_C said:

If Ofcom start prosecuting journalists for repeating facts in the public domain then we can explain the disappearance of Kim Jong Un - he has dyed his hair blond and moved into Downing St

If the BBC decide to be totally independent I would be happy, then they can push any agenda they want to.

If you get your money via threats of imprisonment, then different standards apply.

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

kjh said:

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

MarqueeMark said:

Just an observation, but when the premier politics site in the UK has a picture of a moth getting more likes than any other comment, the Cummings story might just have run its course...

Running interference for "Dom" with your moths. No-one is fooled.

I started with the moths when we went into lockdown. You must at least concede that level of wargaming "running interference" is worthy of Dom himself?

Are these Tory moths though?. I think we should know.

Mexicanpete said:

TOPPING said:

MarqueeMark said:

Just an observation, but when the premier politics site in the UK has a picture of a moth getting more likes than any other comment, the Cummings story might just have run its course...

Likes aren't really a thing on PB.

Oh I don't know? Boris fanboys seem to vote for each other like they were former Soviet States in a Eurovision Song Contest.

CarlottaVance said:

kjh said:

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

MarqueeMark said:

Just an observation, but when the premier politics site in the UK has a picture of a moth getting more likes than any other comment, the Cummings story might just have run its course...

Running interference for "Dom" with your moths. No-one is fooled.

I started with the moths when we went into lockdown. You must at least concede that level of wargaming "running interference" is worthy of Dom himself?

Are these Tory moths though?. I think we should know.

You've already read moths are useful and productive - of course they are! ;-P

MarqueeMark said:

Andy_JS said:

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1265567415838167041

Eventually, the bigger story of the Cummings episode is how fucked the BBC are going to be as a result of the way they have played it.

Remember, Beeb: "dig two graves".....

Andy_Cooke said:

By "relaxation" do you mean "abandonment of restrictions entirely" or do you mean "targeted partial relaxations in some areas while maximising social distancing"?

TOPPING said:

With 8.4m employed (I use the term loosely) and 2m self-employed people on furlough, what do we think the post-Ascot private party-induced Covid spike will be?

Philip_Thompson said:

CarlottaVance said:

Philip_Thompson said:

CarlottaVance said:

Theuniondivvie said:

TGOHF666 said:

malcolmg said:

Theuniondivvie said:

CarlottaVance said:

Scottish Care Homes COVID has made the NYT - with Johnson getting the blame.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/world/europe/coronavirus-uk-nursing-homes.html

They seem to be largely blaming the company that runs it on my reading. It sounds hellish for residents and staff.

'Soon after a nationwide lockdown went into effect in March, a new deputy manager arrived from Kent, in southeastern England. HC-One has said she isolated before starting work. But that was before she made the 650-mile journey to the island, the employees and HC-One said. She eventually became sick and stopped working, the company said.
Feeling unprotected by management, employees cleaned the home obsessively and enforced their own distancing rules. When residents were startled, as they often were, aides held their hands and stroked them. Sometimes employees broke down crying.

“People were petrified,” one of the employees said.

For HC-One, the nursing home business has been lucrative, as the company paid more than 50 million pounds, or nearly $61 million, in dividends from 2017 to 2019.'

'...HC-One warned that its “ability to continue as a going concern” was in jeopardy.
But nursing home finances are difficult to trace. The HC-One group includes 62 companies, 19 of them registered offshore, and its parent company is based in the Cayman Islands.
“It’s money before care all the time,” Ms. Harris said. “The staff they did have worked so hard, but they’ve been let down.”'

Usual Tory tax dodgers maximising profits at expense of people's granny, lies right at Boris's door.

Oversight of care homes is a devolved matter malc.

Are you making the case for more government interference in the running of honest, upstanding private businesses? Well done!

Are you making the case that Care Homes are honest upstanding private businesses?

Yes by and large.

Probably - but there have been several examples of absentee owners having an atrocious outbreak - Skye and Man spring to mind. In the latter one home accounted for 20 of the islands 24 cases. The Manx government shut it down. The Sandbank resident owners were miffed.

There are exceptions in any industry but I have to believe that anyone who goes into care does so because they care about it. Like teaching, nursing etc

Regarding absentee owners that can happen in any sector too. So long as they have passionate and good managers that should be fine. It's the managers who matter more most likely than the owners, besides owner/managers.

Alanbrooke said:

MarqueeMark said:

Andy_JS said:

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1265567415838167041

Eventually, the bigger story of the Cummings episode is how fucked the BBC are going to be as a result of the way they have played it.

Remember, Beeb: "dig two graves".....

You seem to be implying Cummings might be a vindictive man with a lot of clout.

Beibheirli_C said:

Socky said:

Andy_Cooke said:

By "relaxation" do you mean "abandonment of restrictions entirely" or do you mean "targeted partial relaxations in some areas while maximising social distancing"?

I am not aware of any country that has returned to normal, and I am not sure that is in the power of the state to do anyway.

However I did expect that relaxation would lead to a visible up-tick in infection rates (and that may be a worthwhile trade-off). The graphs that I have seen however appear to be heading downwards still.

That I find surprising. Do you not?

Possibly, apart from some care homes, it maybe that Covid has picked the low-hanging fruit in various populations - the mega-vulnerable that, in nature, are always the first to go. It really depends on how widespread this virus actually is as a percentage across the population. I am not sure that we know the answer to that yet.

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

Businesses do not have a right to trade nor does the government have an obligaiton to fund their trading. If they cannot sell their output for more than it costs to produce it they will go out of business.

In the case of cafes they can double their prices if everyone else is having to do the same, that is it is a level playing field. Why should we not pay £5 for a cappuccino , with or without chocolate, if that is what it costs?

Because people will not pay it. It is bad enough paying (say) Starbucks £3 for a coffee when, for a few pennies more, you can pop in to Tesco and buy a bag of Starbucks's coffee for £3.50

All that will happen is that all High Street coffee shops will close

For further info, I refer you to either the Scandinavians whose booze prices are so high (level playing field) that there is a black market in booze, our own tobacco industry where prices are so high there is a black market in fags and finally prohibition in the USA where moonshine sales replaced the legitimate market.

All level playing fields that the public work around.

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

Mexicanpete said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

Cummings is a smokescreen, admittedly one that may resonate with some voters.

Meanwhile back in the real world people are grateful that the subterfuge government has adopted to mitigate the Cummings effect has allowed them back on the beach in Bournemouth. That their children are back at school. That pubs and bars will soon be open. This will make them happy until the second wave locks them down again. The penny will then drop on the second wave that Boris opened England too early, the economy will fall further, the NHS will be consumed and more people will die unneccessarily. It will be at that point that the Conservative Party becomes unelectable.

PB Tories say a second wave is impossible, they cite Switzerland! I say where is track and trace? What precautions have government set in place? I hope I am wrong.

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

Oh sure - got all that - loads of economic losers - furlough has given a false sense of security - I thought you were making a more general observation.

My concern is also with the younger generation. Is university worth it? Lack of job opportunities. Debt on the next generation (and probably generation after that). The reality hasn`t dawned yet for many. I was chatting to a friend yesterday, she asked "when do you think things will be back to normal again?". I think she was expecting me to say "by the Autumn" or something. I said "never".

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I see the Brexiteers are sounding like Corbynista complaining about media bias.

Two cheeks of the same arse.

Both the left and right complain about the BBC. I think that means they're getting it right.

RobD said:

Mexicanpete said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

Cummings is a smokescreen, admittedly one that may resonate with some voters.

Meanwhile back in the real world people are grateful that the subterfuge government has adopted to mitigate the Cummings effect has allowed them back on the beach in Bournemouth. That their children are back at school. That pubs and bars will soon be open. This will make them happy until the second wave locks them down again. The penny will then drop on the second wave that Boris opened England too early, the economy will fall further, the NHS will be consumed and more people will die unneccessarily. It will be at that point that the Conservative Party becomes unelectable.

PB Tories say a second wave is impossible, they cite Switzerland! I say where is track and trace? What precautions have government set in place? I hope I am wrong.

PB Tories say that?

Andy_JS said:

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1265567415838167041

Philip_Thompson said:

malcolmg said:

RobD said:

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

Scottish Care Homes COVID has made the NYT - with Johnson getting the blame.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/world/europe/coronavirus-uk-nursing-homes.html

Yes and so he should

Isn't health a devolved matter?

Private care homes , word Private gives you a clue. Scottish Government having to bail out greedy Tories after they have made fortunes and then let the old grannies fend for themselves. Having to move SNHS staff in to support Tory robber Barons, would not have happened if we had not been a colony.

You think private is a dirty word?

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

Oh sure - got all that - loads of economic losers - furlough has given a false sense of security - I thought you were making a more general observation.

My concern is also with the younger generation. Is university worth it? Lack of job opportunities. Debt on the next generation (and probably generation after that). The reality hasn`t dawned yet for many. I was chatting to a friend yesterday, she asked "when do you think things will be back to normal again?". I think she was expecting me to say "by the Autumn" or something. I said "never".

Stark_Dawning said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

Oh sure - got all that - loads of economic losers - furlough has given a false sense of security - I thought you were making a more general observation.

My concern is also with the younger generation. Is university worth it? Lack of job opportunities. Debt on the next generation (and probably generation after that). The reality hasn`t dawned yet for many. I was chatting to a friend yesterday, she asked "when do you think things will be back to normal again?". I think she was expecting me to say "by the Autumn" or something. I said "never".

You're just being morbid. In my view the talk of economic Armageddon has been ludicrously over egged. My own employer, for example, has seen a perfectly reasonable turnover during the last couple of months, and they're rapidly getting people back from furlough. And this is not in an industry thought to be system critical to the human race.

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

Oh sure - got all that - loads of economic losers - furlough has given a false sense of security - I thought you were making a more general observation.

My concern is also with the younger generation. Is university worth it? Lack of job opportunities. Debt on the next generation (and probably generation after that). The reality hasn`t dawned yet for many. I was chatting to a friend yesterday, she asked "when do you think things will be back to normal again?". I think she was expecting me to say "by the Autumn" or something. I said "never".

The more general observation is that life is going to get worse in most tangible ways for many, perhaps most people. How much more general do you want me to be?

And that’s before the likely economic shock of a No Deal exit from the transition period next January ........

Philip_Thompson said:

CarlottaVance said:

Philip_Thompson said:

CarlottaVance said:

Philip_Thompson said:

CarlottaVance said:

Theuniondivvie said:

TGOHF666 said:

malcolmg said:

Theuniondivvie said:

CarlottaVance said:

Scottish Care Homes COVID has made the NYT - with Johnson getting the blame.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/world/europe/coronavirus-uk-nursing-homes.html

They seem to be largely blaming the company that runs it on my reading. It sounds hellish for residents and staff.

'Soon after a nationwide lockdown went into effect in March, a new deputy manager arrived from Kent, in southeastern England. HC-One has said she isolated before starting work. But that was before she made the 650-mile journey to the island, the employees and HC-One said. She eventually became sick and stopped working, the company said.
Feeling unprotected by management, employees cleaned the home obsessively and enforced their own distancing rules. When residents were startled, as they often were, aides held their hands and stroked them. Sometimes employees broke down crying.

“People were petrified,” one of the employees said.

For HC-One, the nursing home business has been lucrative, as the company paid more than 50 million pounds, or nearly $61 million, in dividends from 2017 to 2019.'

'...HC-One warned that its “ability to continue as a going concern” was in jeopardy.
But nursing home finances are difficult to trace. The HC-One group includes 62 companies, 19 of them registered offshore, and its parent company is based in the Cayman Islands.
“It’s money before care all the time,” Ms. Harris said. “The staff they did have worked so hard, but they’ve been let down.”'

Usual Tory tax dodgers maximising profits at expense of people's granny, lies right at Boris's door.

Oversight of care homes is a devolved matter malc.

Are you making the case for more government interference in the running of honest, upstanding private businesses? Well done!

Are you making the case that Care Homes are honest upstanding private businesses?

Yes by and large.

Probably - but there have been several examples of absentee owners having an atrocious outbreak - Skye and Man spring to mind. In the latter one home accounted for 20 of the islands 24 cases. The Manx government shut it down. The Sandbank resident owners were miffed.

There are exceptions in any industry but I have to believe that anyone who goes into care does so because they care about it. Like teaching, nursing etc

Regarding absentee owners that can happen in any sector too. So long as they have passionate and good managers that should be fine. It's the managers who matter more most likely than the owners, besides owner/managers.

This report on the Skye home makes depressing reading:

https://commonweal.scot/policy-library/predictable-crisis

I've not read it but don't judge a sector by a bad apple. People literally go into care to care for others, it's a noble motive.

A bad school or bad teachers wouldn't make you condemn the entire education sector would it?

FrancisUrquhart said:

We are soon going to be back the same old, same old no-deal vs extension...

Michel Barnier has written a letter replying to a group of SNP, Lib Dem, Plaid Cymru, SDLP, Green, and Alliance Members of Parliament confirming that the EU is open to extending the transition period, although states that an extension must be agreed before 1 July

https://order-order.com/2020/05/27/barnier-begs-opposition-parties-for-extension/

Cyclefree said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

Businesses do not have a right to trade nor does the government have an obligaiton to fund their trading. If they cannot sell their output for more than it costs to produce it they will go out of business.

In the case of cafes they can double their prices if everyone else is having to do the same, that is it is a level playing field. Why should we not pay £5 for a cappuccino , with or without chocolate, if that is what it costs?

Because people will not pay it. It is bad enough paying (say) Starbucks £3 for a coffee when, for a few pennies more, you can pop in to Tesco and buy a bag of Starbucks's coffee for £3.50

All that will happen is that all High Street coffee shops will close

For further info, I refer you to either the Scandinavians whose booze prices are so high (level playing field) that there is a black market in booze, our own tobacco industry where prices are so high there is a black market in fags and finally prohibition in the USA where moonshine sales replaced the legitimate market.

All level playing fields that the public work around.

The government has deliberately stopped businesses trading. So yes it bloody well has an obligation to support them. And if it stops them trading viably after lockdown then that obligation continues.

My daughter and her employees WANT to work. They don’t want to sit on furlough doing nothing. How ****ing hard is it to understand this? FFS!

RobD said:

OllyT said:

Brom said:

I don't watch Newsnight (how could I watch anything with Lewis Goodall), but I've heard Emily Maitlis has been referred to Ofcom and could be in trouble. Something to do with last night's show.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to link us to the source of these disturbing things you keep hearing about. It makes a world of difference as to whether you have "just heard" it from closely connected to OFCOM or from Guido Fawkes.

Nothing on Guido about it.

Cyclefree said:

Beibheirli_C said:

DavidL said:

Businesses do not have a right to trade nor does the government have an obligaiton to fund their trading. If they cannot sell their output for more than it costs to produce it they will go out of business.

In the case of cafes they can double their prices if everyone else is having to do the same, that is it is a level playing field. Why should we not pay £5 for a cappuccino , with or without chocolate, if that is what it costs?

Because people will not pay it. It is bad enough paying (say) Starbucks £3 for a coffee when, for a few pennies more, you can pop in to Tesco and buy a bag of Starbucks's coffee for £3.50

All that will happen is that all High Street coffee shops will close

For further info, I refer you to either the Scandinavians whose booze prices are so high (level playing field) that there is a black market in booze, our own tobacco industry where prices are so high there is a black market in fags and finally prohibition in the USA where moonshine sales replaced the legitimate market.

All level playing fields that the public work around.

The government has deliberately stopped businesses trading. So yes it bloody well has an obligation to support them. And if it stops them trading viably after lockdown then that obligation continues.

My daughter and her employees WANT to work. They don’t want to sit on furlough doing nothing. How ****ing hard is it to understand this? FFS!

squareroot2 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

We are soon going to be back the same old, same old no-deal vs extension...

Michel Barnier has written a letter replying to a group of SNP, Lib Dem, Plaid Cymru, SDLP, Green, and Alliance Members of Parliament confirming that the EU is open to extending the transition period, although states that an extension must be agreed before 1 July

https://order-order.com/2020/05/27/barnier-begs-opposition-parties-for-extension/

wtf is he doing that for.?

MaxPB said:

RobD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

We are soon going to be back the same old same old...

Michel Barnier has written a letter replying to a group of SNP, Lib Dem, Plaid Cymru, SDLP, Green, and Alliance Members of Parliament confirming that the EU is open to extending the transition period, although states that an extension must be agreed before 1 July

https://order-order.com/2020/05/27/barnier-begs-opposition-parties-for-extension/

Does he know they are in opposition?

In other countries the EU would just abolish the government and install a technocrat.

DavidL said:

Somewhat predictably Wings over Scotland has got nowhere with his appeal: https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csih27.pdf?sfvrsn=0

The main point of interest is that it was the first substantive Inner House appeal to be dealt with remotely.

Nigelb said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Cyclefree said:

And to answer @Richard_Nabavi’s point: people who drink alcohol in their garden can get just as smashed as easily as in a pub. There is no logical or scientific rationale for allowing people to meet and drink in their gardens and not allowing them to meet and drink in a pub or restaurant garden. None.

It's not about getting smashed. Pub gardens are communal spaces. People behave differently than they do in their own gardens, the numbers would be greater, and the risk of infecting strangers is greater.

To be clear, I personally think the rules should be relaxed to allow this, as I think the risks are manageable and the benefit in economic and social terms is worth having. But it's silly not to recognise that there is a very valid argument on the other side.

Cyclefree's second point, though - that if you keep such businesses closed for much longer, then you have effectively finished them - needs answering.

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1265562194068082690?s=20

bigjohnowls said:

MarqueeMark said:

Andy_JS said:

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1265567415838167041

Eventually, the bigger story of the Cummings episode is how fucked the BBC are going to be as a result of the way they have played it.

Remember, Beeb: "dig two graves".....

Thought you were against threats

Didnt know you were a fan of N Korea

Alanbrooke said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

Oh sure - got all that - loads of economic losers - furlough has given a false sense of security - I thought you were making a more general observation.

My concern is also with the younger generation. Is university worth it? Lack of job opportunities. Debt on the next generation (and probably generation after that). The reality hasn`t dawned yet for many. I was chatting to a friend yesterday, she asked "when do you think things will be back to normal again?". I think she was expecting me to say "by the Autumn" or something. I said "never".

The more general observation is that life is going to get worse in most tangible ways for many, perhaps most people. How much more general do you want me to be?

And that’s before the likely economic shock of a No Deal exit from the transition period next January ........

Oh get a grip.

Brexit is drowned out by the changing landscape and screaming about it just simple ignores the fact that world has gone through a seismic shift and none of the assumptions people made two years ago hold up. Oil price on the floor. China US warming up daily, globalisation in reverse.

The Brexit arguments are all dead, we are walking in to a new world and need to get our heads around it.

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1265592505724256257?s=20

Is he taking the piss?

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1265562194068082690?s=20

BluestBlue said:

IshmaelZ said:

BluestBlue said:

MarqueeMark said:

Andy_JS said:

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1265567415838167041

Eventually, the bigger story of the Cummings episode is how fucked the BBC are going to be as a result of the way they have played it.

Remember, Beeb: "dig two graves".....

Indeed. Also Emerson: 'When you strike the king, you must kill him.'

'Cos if you don't...

All these metaphors: regicide, assassination, feeding frenzy, getting their man, taking their scalp. This misses two points. First, news organizations report news, all the time, and "news" is ultimately defined as what their audience considers to be news, cos otherwise they would lose their readership. Blaming the press is like warmist dweebs campaigning against investment in BP while pretending not to realise that their consumption of BP's products keeps BP in business.

Secondly, the story is that a conceited creep is more conceited, and much less clever, than appeared at first sight. The big swinging dick bloodshed metaphors lend it a dignity it just does not deserve.

This entire episode is a trial of strength (oops, another metaphor!) to determine who wields the real power in Britain - the elected government, or the unelected media. quapropter res iam redit ad triarios.

Colourful metaphors are indeed inadequate to express the magnitude of what is at stake.

Alanbrooke said:

Cyclefree said:

Alanbrooke said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Stocky said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1265625345862127616

This seems an opportune moment to quote myself from the distant reaches of ... last night:

'The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.'

Rage is exhausting, and time brings perspective.

You think the reality of people's lives is going to start improving? Interesting take.

I bloody well hope so. You think otherwise?

A lot of them are going to find themselves on the dole, without generous financial support from the government. Many will find that the cuts in their wages they've already taken start to bite much more when they're commuting back to work.

All of us will find that pre-lockdown life does not return as it was before because shops, restaurants, pubs and cafes are permanently shut.

The Covid-19 holiday at home will be over and there will be bills to pay. The reality of a lot of people's lives is likely to get substantially worse from here on.

Oh sure - got all that - loads of economic losers - furlough has given a false sense of security - I thought you were making a more general observation.

My concern is also with the younger generation. Is university worth it? Lack of job opportunities. Debt on the next generation (and probably generation after that). The reality hasn`t dawned yet for many. I was chatting to a friend yesterday, she asked "when do you think things will be back to normal again?". I think she was expecting me to say "by the Autumn" or something. I said "never".

The more general observation is that life is going to get worse in most tangible ways for many, perhaps most people. How much more general do you want me to be?

And that’s before the likely economic shock of a No Deal exit from the transition period next January ........

Oh get a grip.

Brexit is drowned out by the changing landscape and screaming about it just simple ignores the fact that world has gone through a seismic shift and none of the assumptions people made two years ago hold up. Oil price on the floor. China US warming up daily, globalisation in reverse.

The Brexit arguments are all dead, we are walking in to a new world and need to get our heads around it.

I’m not screaming about it. You are. I am simply pointing out what is very likely going to happen in just over 6 months. It will be the new world - the better world that supporters like you promised.

If it isn’t it could cause additional economic harm on top of the economic harm caused by this virus. That is worth noting, even if you don’t like this being pointed out.

If I recall correctly I consistently argued Brexit wouldn't make that much difference and it would be something from left field which would have the biggest effect on the economy...

AlastairMeeks said:

I've never been in a Nando's. Have I missed out?

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1265592505724256257?s=20

Is he taking the piss?