I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?
Surely southern Spain is the top working class emigration destination.
I think class is the wrong basis, to move to Spain the majority have to be able to buy a house and support themselves many successful business people own second homes here. I would agree that on paper I would have been more Tuscany than Costs Blanca but in the real world it has become a classless society with peoples past lives of little importance to social mixing.
Some detail on the Korea spike in cases (with bolded point for Cummings' attention):
Coupang warehouse turns into coronavirus hotbed https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2020/05/119_290225.html A logistics center operated by e-commerce platform giant Coupang has emerged as a new hotbed for the spread of COVID-19, with the number of cases linked to the facility nearing 40, according to the health authorities, Wednesday.
The Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) is carrying out an epidemiological investigation based on the presumption that the logistics center in Bucheon, Gyeonggi Province, has not abided by basic social distancing rules aimed at containing the spread of the contagious disease.
The rules call for people to stay home when they feel ill, keep a distance of about two meters between each other, wash their hands frequently, wear face masks and ventilate indoor spaces regularly.
The authorities are conducting coronavirus tests on all employees at the facility to find any additional infected persons promptly in a bid to stop any further spread of the virus. The estimated number of employees there is 3,600....
Apart from anything else, are others not struck by how inept Cummings has proved himself? He's always portrayed as this fantastically intellegint master-strategist, yet he's come up with a plan which your average kid-with-hand-in-cookie jar could have bettered.
The fairy story involving the Castle wouldn't impose on a bunch of four year olds.
Do you reckon the kid could be persuaded to talk?
Yes, the mystique around Cummings has gone up in smoke. A man with all his money and influence was incapable of arranging some childcare that didn't result in a major political scandal and jeopardise the most significant public-health policy in a generation. With Brexit he was just in the right place at the right time. The result was probably more to do with the half-arsed Remain campaign than anything he dreamt up.
It may just be me, but I'm not sure why folk on here continue to debate with Mr Thompson on whether or not Cummings broke the rules/laws. He is clearly not going to change his mind whatever arguments people put forward, so it seems rather pointless.
I enjoy reading the arguments here, but the volume of posting on this issue with Mr Thompson has made recent threads repetitive and a bit dull. Maybe he'd post a bit less if we left him alone?
To me, his comment on the virtue of selfishness sums it up anyway and I don't need to know any more.
Maybe ask him if Johnson signed the letter?
Or if he gives succour to those who aid and abet genocide?
I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
They should have done the job properly. Build Central Motorway West. Central Motorway East Bypass. the Underground Cross City Motorway. And then ban all vehicles from the actual centre.
Apart from anything else, are others not struck by how inept Cummings has proved himself? He's always portrayed as this fantastically intellegint master-strategist, yet he's come up with a plan which your average kid-with-hand-in-cookie jar could have bettered.
The fairy story involving the Castle wouldn't impose on a bunch of four year olds.
Do you reckon the kid could be persuaded to talk?
The public bought £350m a week for the NHS and Get Brexit Done.
Everything in Dom's experience told him they would swallow @Drove to test Eyesight@ hook, line and sinker
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
Most small (and many large) businesses already operate on the margins of viability, and will probably only be running at 20-30 per cent capacity under the Covid Safe guidance.
Theatres which can only fill every sixth seat; cosy restaurants with their capacity down from 30 covers to 8, factories whose lines can't operate without wholescale re-engineering.
Rishi Sunak is generally accepted to have played a blinder in the support offered, and is rightly finding ways of getting people back asap given the ruinous cost. But even with successful, simple messaging to make that happen, I can't see it being anything but utter economic carnage.
The responsibility for making that clear messaging happen lies with Boris Johnson. He thinks he can weather the storm, and he may, but his credibility in delivering the tough messages is shot.
The Johnson-Cummings machine recognised the absolute necessity of simple, straightforward messaging in Brexit, the 2019 election and the early stages of this - which is what led to the general acceptance of lockdown once they got round to starting it. The two of them have utterly bombed it with their performance in the last five days.
Ironically, it rather proves how important Cummings is in identifying the buttons to be pressed and thumping them with a lump hammer. Because left to his own devices as salesman without a message, Johnson flounders.
It's the Barnard Castle thing that's really pissing people off.
The excuse that:
"Well, yes, we did go out of lockdown and drove 45 minutes along country roads to a local beauty spot as a family on my wife's birthday, including getting out of the car there and then stopping at some woods on the way back where we were seen playing together as a family during the time that people were being turned back in their cars if they were making 'non-essential journeys' and even fined, but I've got an excuse.
You see, I wanted to check if I was fit for a motorway drive because I had to get back to advise the Prime Minister. Who was, of course, not working at the time or for another fortnight, but that's by the by. There were concerns I wasn't safe to drive. I mean - what would we do if we got half way back and I felt unable to drive any more? Have my wife drive instead as she's been far less hit by this bug? That's madness.
That's why I had to put my entire family in the car and drive cross country on a one-and-a-half hour round trip on country roads to a beauty spot. Rather than, say, drive up and down on my father's estate on my own, or, if I was feeling brave, pop onto the motorway for one junction down and back.
And the reason we got out was that I was feeling too sick to drive. However, at no point did my wife drive despite this; I pressed on after we got seen and got back in. And we stopped off on the way back for a pee and thought that while we were outside of the car already, we may as well play together as a family for a while.
And that, your Honour, is why we were seen playing as a family on my wife's birthday at a beauty spot an hour and a half round trip away from where we were self-isolating while everyone else was being instructed that they should not drive somewhere to beauty spots. I think I have behaved with integrity and reasonably throughout and regret nothing."
I think only Philip believes him on here; even the Tory stalwarts are either aghast or saying that they simply don't care that he did wrong.
And on the weakness front: the thing that's cut through is that Boris is unable to sack this go no matter what he does or govern without him.
Apparently a ‘Barnard Castle’ is Geordie slang for a pathetic/unbelievable excuse. I lived in Newcastle for six years and don’t recall it.
If people can meet in gardens why can’t cafe/pub/restaurant gardens be open? There is no difference.
The difference is the greater risk of cross transmission as more groups intermingle but these things can be managed. The guidance I linked to has advice as to how to manage transmission risk where people cannot be kept 2m apart: Considering whether an activity needs to continue for the business to operate Keeping the activity time involved as short as possible Using screens or barriers to separate people from each other Using back-to-back or side-to-side working whenever possible Staggering arrival and departure times Reducing the number of people each person has contact with by using ‘fixed teams or partnering’
None of this is rocket science and it has been operating largely successfully in supermarkets for months now.
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
Keir Starmer said very clearly that in Boris Johnson's position he would have sacked Cummings. This leaves him zero wriggle room if someone important on his side was travelling while infected.
It was particularly clever because, rather than directly call for Cummings to resign, it turns the focus onto Johnson's judgement not to fire him and his complicity.
Starmer can't credibly criticise Johnson's lack of leadership and then fail to act in a similar situation. If any of his senior team have broken self-isolation rules then we can expect that they will be instantly told to go.
Then Starmer is a liar as at least 2 Labour MPs have been identified as breaking the lockdown.
QUARANTINE WITH THE VIRUS IS NOT THE SAME AS LOCKDOWN
3 or 4 of you keep trying to pretend the 2 are the same and loads of people keep calling you out on it. You are either thick (which I on't believe you are) or deliberately trying to mislead people.
Fortunately, as the Mail poll showed last night, the public aren't buying your pathetic attempts to justify Cummings actions leaving home when he and his family had Covid-19.
The two earlier posters are by default claiming Kinnock and Ali's issues trump Cummings' escapades. Interestingly Jenricks little excursions have been lost in the haze.
Let's take the odious Stephen Kinnock first. Look at the story, and the only conclusion one can draw is that someone from South Wales Police was bored and mischievous.
Ali by contrast is a worry. Starmer would do well to launch an investigation
Let's take the odious Stephen Kinnock first. Look at the story, and the only conclusion one can draw is that someone from South Wales Police was bored and mischievous.
Ali by contrast is a worry. Starmer would do well to launch an investigation
The lockdown is over - you can go out as much as you want.
Frankly a bit of prodding of politicians to lift the remaining restrictions would be welcome.
Apart from anything else, are others not struck by how inept Cummings has proved himself? He's always portrayed as this fantastically intellegint master-strategist, yet he's come up with a plan which your average kid-with-hand-in-cookie jar could have bettered.
The fairy story involving the Castle wouldn't impose on a bunch of four year olds.
Do you reckon the kid could be persuaded to talk?
He made up a better story, wrote it all down as homework
We are following the science, except when we're not...
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.
Doesn't matter what they go with; they've lost the public now.
You can't implement restrictive measures on this scale without huge public support. How they going to implement them when any jerk can turn round and say '...Following my intuition, Guv.'?
That is true.
My fear is the super quick easing in England has helped mitigate Cummings explain away his misdeeds. The government knew the Cummings affair was coming down the line weeks ago so unlocking quickly, with families partying on beaches as the story broke has taken some of the sting out of it.
Now, were the government always intent on unlocking weeks before Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland or was there something more sinister afoot?
I thought NI was leading the unlockdown with groups of 10 allowed for a while now?
R seems to be not that safely below 1 in some parts of the UK now. I'm still, simplistically, tracking new case counts and looking at 7-day averages 4 days apart for a value I can calculate without large imports and programming. (this is a somewhat adjusted measure to what I was using a few weeks ago to look at the path suppression below 1).
Wales has never convincingly been below 1 in the last couple of weeks. NI and Scotland were similar a couple of weeks ago, NI looks to be above 0.9 now, whilst Scotland is around 0.75.
London has edged back up to above 0.8. Rest of England is decent and maybe a little below London, but obviously that masks local variations.
And obviously there is a community vs institution aspect to this
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
Most small (and many large) businesses already operate on the margins of viability, and will probably only be running at 20-30 per cent capacity under the Covid Safe guidance.
Theatres which can only fill every sixth seat; cosy restaurants with their capacity down from 30 covers to 8, factories whose lines can't operate without wholescale re-engineering.
Rishi Sunak is generally accepted to have played a blinder in the support offered, and is rightly finding ways of getting people back asap given the ruinous cost. But even with successful, simple messaging to make that happen, I can't see it being anything but utter economic carnage.
The responsibility for making that clear messaging happen lies with Boris Johnson. He thinks he can weather the storm, and he may, but his credibility in delivering the tough messages is shot.
The Johnson-Cummings machine recognised the absolute necessity of simple, straightforward messaging in Brexit, the 2019 election and the early stages of this - which is what led to the general acceptance of lockdown once they got round to starting it. The two of them have utterly bombed it with their performance in the last five days.
Ironically, it rather proves how important Cummings is in identifying the buttons to be pressed and thumping them with a lump hammer. Because left to his own devices as salesman without a message, Johnson flounders.
I agree that businesses that deal with a lot of people are going to find this difficult but they will need to adjust. So in a café if you have half the number of covers the overhead per cup of coffee sold increases. So the cost must increase too. Where possible overhead should be reduced, rents are going to have to fall, for example. Fewer staff will be required. Some will not survive the changes but none will survive a lockdown that runs through the summer and into the autumn.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
The government have been letting it slip that track and trace outcomes will not be compulsory - Hancock talking about "civic duty".
An admission that the police cannot possibly expect to enforce this - thankfully.
The frothiteers of the Daily Mail etc will have a field day of outrage in the weeks ahead as some people choose to ignore "civic duty" or track n trace doesn't catch every case to the umpteenth degree.
" MP went to a garden centre just days after being on a train where there was a known outbreak near the drivers uncles village !"
"Track n tracers fail to inform man who ate sandwich near spot where outbreak victim passed on bicycle ! "
It's not about police enforcement. The idea of track and trace is to find and test all contacts of infected people to see if they too are infected. And if so get them to self isolate for a couple of weeks.
The app is potentially useful, but not essential to a track and trace program.
I really cannot understand why people like yourself, who are understandably anxious to open up the economy again, are so set against the idea. It is out best chance to have some sort of working economy until a vaccine is available.
Let's take the odious Stephen Kinnock first. Look at the story, and the only conclusion one can draw is that someone from South Wales Police was bored and mischievous.
Ali by contrast is a worry. Starmer would do well to launch an investigation
The lockdown is over - you can go out as much as you want.
Frankly a bit of prodding of politicians to lift the remaining restrictions would be welcome.
There is a difference between lockdown over with controlled release and measurement and a free for all. I’m not sure why you are so confident that moving to free for all is risk free? If you are wrong then the impact on the economy and public health will be massive. What expertise are you listening to to arrive at your conclusion?
It's the Barnard Castle thing that's really pissing people off.
The excuse that:
"Well, yes, we did go out of lockdown and drove 45 minutes along country roads to a local beauty spot as a family on my wife's birthday, including getting out of the car there and then stopping at some woods on the way back where we were seen playing together as a family during the time that people were being turned back in their cars if they were making 'non-essential journeys' and even fined, but I've got an excuse.
You see, I wanted to check if I was fit for a motorway drive because I had to get back to advise the Prime Minister. Who was, of course, not working at the time or for another fortnight, but that's by the by. There were concerns I wasn't safe to drive. I mean - what would we do if we got half way back and I felt unable to drive any more? Have my wife drive instead as she's been far less hit by this bug? That's madness.
That's why I had to put my entire family in the car and drive cross country on a one-and-a-half hour round trip on country roads to a beauty spot. Rather than, say, drive up and down on my father's estate on my own, or, if I was feeling brave, pop onto the motorway for one junction down and back.
And the reason we got out was that I was feeling too sick to drive. However, at no point did my wife drive despite this; I pressed on after we got seen and got back in. And we stopped off on the way back for a pee and thought that while we were outside of the car already, we may as well play together as a family for a while.
And that, your Honour, is why we were seen playing as a family on my wife's birthday at a beauty spot an hour and a half round trip away from where we were self-isolating while everyone else was being instructed that they should not drive somewhere to beauty spots. I think I have behaved with integrity and reasonably throughout and regret nothing."
I think only Philip believes him on here; even the Tory stalwarts are either aghast or saying that they simply don't care that he did wrong.
And on the weakness front: the thing that's cut through is that Boris is unable to sack this go no matter what he does or govern without him.
Apparently a ‘Barnard Castle’ is Geordie slang for a pathetic/unbelievable excuse. I lived in Newcastle for six years and don’t recall it.
I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
I don’t know if you’re married...
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.
In his heart of hearts I doubt Charles really believes there is anything wrong with elite Tories breaking the rules because it happens to suit them
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
I always think of Australians as Brits trying to be American and not quite managing it. The countries we are closest to understand that English does not equate to British. I’d say that outside the UK that’s Australia, NZ, Ireland and white South Africa.
Regarding the USA,I've always felt the UK readily absorbs the worst bits but fails to successfully adopt the best bits.
I think the problem is that the good bits of the US (entrepreneurial spirit, civic mindedness, idealism) are harder to replicate - and indeed are dying out there too. So we end up importing the bad bits (hollow consumerism, the culture war, most likely their shitty food too now). The fundamental differences between the US and us - they are a huge country with lots of space, they are a nation of immigrants, they had a revolution and created a Republican constitution - will remain.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
FFS get a sense of perspective. Thousands of jobs a day against 1. It is bizarre.
Be interesting to see what Starmer has to say about this
Something forensic ?
Fake news. By Lloyd's account, he felt ill only after he had returned to Manchester. In any case, since Lloyd already stepped down from the Shadow Cabinet, Starmer can hardly demote him.
Completely OT but I've today asked the boss if, when restrictions are eased, I can work remotely from Connecticut going forward - for a 6 month trial run at first anyway. The wife's an only child of a single mother and this thing has really brought that home to her and wants to go home. I await my leader's response with interest.
I do have to laugh at the "Eugh x (some Labour person) broke lockdown so that means Cummings in innocent" posts. As I have responded on Facebook to Kevan Jones appearing at a VE day thing in his constituency - "yes, Johnson should sack Jones as the chief government advisor. Its unacceptable for Jones to go the SAGE meetings, see the evidence, craft the STAY HOME SAVE LIVES" instruction and then ignore it"
And its the same with Lloyd, Campbell, whoever. They didn't write the rules. That is the transgression. Many many of the Tory voters saying Cummings is a liar who should be sacked will have done *something* that CumStaines can prattle on about on OrderOrder.com. That they have isn't the issue - its having done so HAVING INSTRUCTED EVERYONE NOT YO DO SO that is the issue.
He could have apologised profusely and humbly - "I am a dad, I panicked". He would have been ok.
Doesn't matter what happens now. He's likely to stay, though, allowing the Opposition tack the phrase "...that continues to employ Dominic Cummings" onto any statement about the Government for as long as it is effective. Which is a win for SKS.
"This government, whose advisors ignore their own advice, cannot be trusted to ....."
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
Keir Starmer said very clearly that in Boris Johnson's position he would have sacked Cummings. This leaves him zero wriggle room if someone important on his side was travelling while infected.
It was particularly clever because, rather than directly call for Cummings to resign, it turns the focus onto Johnson's judgement not to fire him and his complicity.
Starmer can't credibly criticise Johnson's lack of leadership and then fail to act in a similar situation. If any of his senior team have broken self-isolation rules then we can expect that they will be instantly told to go.
Indeed a prompt sacking for breaking quarantine would heighten the contrast between decisive leadership and waffling bluster.
True, Starmer should find a suitable volunteer in his team who can be theatrically sacked.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
Boris is not going to do this now unless something new turns up perhaps via the Durham Police investigation - so Cummings alibis better be water tight. The political capital has already been lost and firing Cummings now will just make look the PM look weak in the face of media rule.
Regarding the USA,I've always felt the UK readily absorbs the worst bits but fails to successfully adopt the best bits.
Ammendments 1, 2, and 4 would be a good start.
The right to bear arms, eh? What this country really needs is overweight incels with assault rifles turning up at places of government.
I remember a 'classical liberal' that used to post on here who claimed that UK gun laws actually made us more unsafe than the USA and got very excited at the idea of 3D printed guns. He certainly added to the entertainment value of the place.
He could have apologised profusely and humbly - "I am a dad, I panicked". He would have been ok.
It wouldn't have been good enough for everyone but i think people would be mentally moving on at this point if he'd said that. The lack of an apology is really starting to cut.
It may just be me, but I'm not sure why folk on here continue to debate with Mr Thompson on whether or not Cummings broke the rules/laws. He is clearly not going to change his mind whatever arguments people put forward, so it seems rather pointless.
I enjoy reading the arguments here, but the volume of posting on this issue with Mr Thompson has made recent threads repetitive and a bit dull. Maybe he'd post a bit less if we left him alone?
To me, his comment on the virtue of selfishness sums it up anyway and I don't need to know any more.
Yes I wish he would post less as he dominates this site. Surely he has other things to do, than be on here all day.
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
It could have been so much better to start "Did Dominic Cummings break the rules? The public seem to think so....(plenty of polling evidence to back that up).
If someone denies something, and has yet to be convicted in a court of law are there any circumstances where a newscaster should be able to say someone has broken the rule?
If not, that is quite a strange position. If there are, it would be surprising if everyone had the same view on the combination of the threshold and where a particular case fits on that spectrum.
In summary, its complicated and I think you have to give newscasters some space to do as they see fit.
It is - but I tend to agree that this stepped over the mark, even if I understand the motivation. It would have been easy to express all of those points in a more nuanced manner. And one should expect that of an experienced journalist.
I think its borderline, and that yes, there were better ways of phrasing the question.
But my point is that everyone will have a different place where that line is drawn, so if I expect my line is always adhered to, then I would be both unreasonable and often disappointed.
As long as there is a broad range of newscasters out there, it shouldnt matter if one crosses my particular line, or any other posters particular line on a rare occasion. I dont see how alternative arrangements can work without quite severely limiting the freedom of the press?
It may just be me, but I'm not sure why folk on here continue to debate with Mr Thompson on whether or not Cummings broke the rules/laws. He is clearly not going to change his mind whatever arguments people put forward, so it seems rather pointless.
I enjoy reading the arguments here, but the volume of posting on this issue with Mr Thompson has made recent threads repetitive and a bit dull. Maybe he'd post a bit less if we left him alone?
To me, his comment on the virtue of selfishness sums it up anyway and I don't need to know any more.
Yes I wish he would post less as he dominates this site. Surely he has other things to do, than be on here all day.
I hate myself for constantly feeling compelled to counter what he writes.
For those wondering about the manner in which Brexit proceeds...
The Nissan/Renault restructuring plans ought to be very good news indeed for the UK, as the importance of Sunderland was set to increase. There is now an element of doubt about that.
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13404464 ..A test of the new approach could come in several places around the world, such as how Renault and Nissan work together in Europe and perhaps South America, as well as how Nissan and Mitsubishi cooperate in Southeast Asia and Japan.
Under the new working relationship, Nissan could take the lead in Europe on crossover sport-utility vehicles (SUVs), while operating as a “follower” in commercial vans and small city cars, using versions produced by Renault, the sources said.
Nissan’s factory in Sunderland in the United Kingdom is of particular importance, they said.
Renault and Nissan are planning to turn the assembly plant into a hub for SUVs such as Nissan’s Qashqai and Juke, and potentially their Renault counterparts, the Kadjar and Captur. The companies are working on the plans, though it’s not clear when a final decision will be made, the sources said.
Whether Renault vehicles could be built profitably at the plant is unclear, given the uncertainty over tariffs as Britain leaves the European Union, according to one of the sources.
“It should be a pure economic transaction, but it’s also likely a political decision, too,” he said...
He could have apologised profusely and humbly - "I am a dad, I panicked". He would have been ok.
It wouldn't have been good enough for everyone but i think people would be mentally moving on at this point if he'd said that. The lack of an apology is really starting to cut.
It would have been good enough for the majority. There are unreasonable people on both sides, and always will be.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
Most small (and many large) businesses already operate on the margins of viability, and will probably only be running at 20-30 per cent capacity under the Covid Safe guidance.
Theatres which can only fill every sixth seat; cosy restaurants with their capacity down from 30 covers to 8, factories whose lines can't operate without wholescale re-engineering.
Rishi Sunak is generally accepted to have played a blinder in the support offered, and is rightly finding ways of getting people back asap given the ruinous cost. But even with successful, simple messaging to make that happen, I can't see it being anything but utter economic carnage.
The responsibility for making that clear messaging happen lies with Boris Johnson. He thinks he can weather the storm, and he may, but his credibility in delivering the tough messages is shot.
The Johnson-Cummings machine recognised the absolute necessity of simple, straightforward messaging in Brexit, the 2019 election and the early stages of this - which is what led to the general acceptance of lockdown once they got round to starting it. The two of them have utterly bombed it with their performance in the last five days.
Ironically, it rather proves how important Cummings is in identifying the buttons to be pressed and thumping them with a lump hammer. Because left to his own devices as salesman without a message, Johnson flounders.
Yep, perhaps the overriding lesson is that attempting nuance, whether in policy or excusing their own misdemeanours, is what will always fckup the likes of Cummings and BJ. They really should have been able to understand the simple, straightforward messaging of 'one rule for bosses and another for everyone else' right at the beginning of this.
Not-leftie, not-remoaner, the Telegraph has Robert Jenrick going further and saying that any parent can do as Dominic Cummings did, and that Matt Hancock was wrong about fines being reviewed. Sorry, Matt.
Urging the country to "move on" from the scandal, over which nearly 40 Conservative MPs have publicly attacked Mr Cummings, Robert Jenrick told the Today programme: "If there are no other options, if you don't have ready access to childcare, you can do as Dominic Cummings chose to do."
He added: "The guidelines say you must do your best, but they appreciate that family life poses particular challenges and in order to protect you children you are allowed to exercise degree of personal judgement."
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
Boris is not going to do this now unless something new turns up perhaps via the Durham Police investigation - so Cummings alibis better be water tight. The political capital has already been lost and firing Cummings now will just make look the PM look weak in the face of media rule.
I do not think the Police will get involved in any meaningful way. Due to who he is and not wishing to add to the controversy.
If it had been a normal member of the public , they would have issued a FPN , without a second thought.
As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
It could have been so much better to start "Did Dominic Cummings break the rules? The public seem to think so....(plenty of polling evidence to back that up).
If someone denies something, and has yet to be convicted in a court of law are there any circumstances where a newscaster should be able to say someone has broken the rule?
If not, that is quite a strange position. If there are, it would be surprising if everyone had the same view on the combination of the threshold and where a particular case fits on that spectrum.
In summary, its complicated and I think you have to give newscasters some space to do as they see fit.
It is - but I tend to agree that this stepped over the mark, even if I understand the motivation. It would have been easy to express all of those points in a more nuanced manner. And one should expect that of an experienced journalist.
I think its borderline, and that yes, there were better ways of phrasing the question.
But my point is that everyone will have a different place where that line is drawn, so if I expect my line is always adhered to, then I would be both unreasonable and often disappointed.
As long as there is a broad range of newscasters out there, it shouldnt matter if one crosses my particular line, or any other posters particular line on a rare occasion. I dont see how alternative arrangements can work without quite severely limiting the freedom of the press?
I don't disagree. Just a bit disappointed in Maitliss.
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.
Not that it matters now!
Starmer should focus on two things now:-
1. The lockdown easing measures and, in particular, whether they are being applied fairly. Or intelligently. See what I have already said about the absurdity of opening indoor shops before outside venues. Or allowing people to congregate in gardens but not go to a pub with a garden. Plus why the 2-metre advice (it’s not a rule) when most of Europe has it down to 1 metre.
2. Sunak’s plans to stop furlough, particularly the rumoured idea of asking businesses legally prevented from opening to pay 20% of wages and NI when they don’t have any income.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
FFS get a sense of perspective. Thousands of jobs a day against 1. It is bizarre.
Thousands of additional deaths because people can now do what they think Dom did
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
Keir Starmer said very clearly that in Boris Johnson's position he would have sacked Cummings. This leaves him zero wriggle room if someone important on his side was travelling while infected.
It was particularly clever because, rather than directly call for Cummings to resign, it turns the focus onto Johnson's judgement not to fire him and his complicity.
Starmer can't credibly criticise Johnson's lack of leadership and then fail to act in a similar situation. If any of his senior team have broken self-isolation rules then we can expect that they will be instantly told to go.
Indeed a prompt sacking for breaking quarantine would heighten the contrast between decisive leadership and waffling bluster.
True, Starmer should find a suitable volunteer in his team who can be theatrically sacked.
Totally disagree , SKS should play a straight bat , and be guided by the evidence. As I am sure he will, do. Not play daft games during a crisis.
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.
I saw a survey a while back in which people from various countries were asked which country, except their own, they'd recommend to a young person to have a good life.
Brits backed Australia, and having been there a few times, I can see why, though I'd prefer California myself. Obviously Australia has its ugly side, like all countries, but for decent middle class life, it must be one of the best places in the world. People are mostly friendly and they speak (a corruption of) English. And it's warm and sunny. Sydney has a stunningly beautiful setting, though Melbourne is a lot drabber.
I visited Australia some years back (Adelaide, Woomera, Sydney). What really struck me was that some of it seemed on the margin in terms of water supply, including big cities. It would worry me if I wanted to emigrate there.
That's true and it worries many Aussies too. Though I think Sydney actually gets twice as much rainfall as London, doesn't it? (4 inches vs 1.5 inches/month)
Their skin cancer rates are horrific as well.
But many people, including me, find mild desert climates good to live in. I mean, you wake up every morning, you feel the warm sun on you and you feel good about yourself. I couldn't live in the humidity and mosquitoes of tropical Queensland (or Mississippi), but coastal southern California or dry Australia are my ideal climates.
And in the English language and friendly people and you have a winning combination, and one that many English people buy into.
Thank you. We were staying with a friend in Adelaide and I was struck by the care she took to conserve water for all purposes - we even drank the stuff off the roof. But the street gutters etc are also designed for seasonal torrents. Fascinating place, Australia!
Maitliss piece signals the start of a potential Trump/CNN relationship in this country. It's not good news but the Gov't is bringing it on itself. Probably more important than ever that Biden wins in November now.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
FFS get a sense of perspective. Thousands of jobs a day against 1. It is bizarre.
The problem is not out in the country @DavidL - the problem is that govt and media seem to be paralysed like a rabbit in the headlights. The Cummings Scandal seems to causing huge amount of diversion at Cabinet and PM level.
The thousands of job losses will catch the Media's attention when they figure out that they can use it as another stick with which to beat the hapless Boris.
And next month we have significant Brexit issues to hurl into the mix too. It is evolving into a Perfect Storm of political poop.
Lucky old Boris. He wanted the glory of being in charge....
We don't want his scalp. The longer he shits on the heads of Tory voters with partisan diehards defending him the better. The very worst thing for the opposition would have been a humble contrite mea culpa I panicked I am a dad confession.
Completely OT but I've today asked the boss if, when restrictions are eased, I can work remotely from Connecticut going forward - for a 6 month trial run at first anyway. The wife's an only child of a single mother and this thing has really brought that home to her and wants to go home. I await my leader's response with interest.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
Funny how so many anti-Tories (not necessarily you) have both demanded that Cummings go and expressed a fervent wish that he should stay.
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
As far as I can tell the government's "move on" line is making things worse. I think people have accepted that Dom is staying but it means the Tories have lost 3m+ voters. The whole party is now infected with it, even if Boris was to go before 2024 I don't see a route to majority government. The party has transformed itself from being on the side of the people to being the elite in about 7 days.
I actually think that Starmer now has a route to winning 100-120 seats. If he drops some of the socially lefty crazy culture war stuff like letting biological men into women's bathrooms etc... he might just be able to get a Blair style swing and end up with 320-340 seats in parliament.
None of this was possible a few days ago, the race is now completely open where it never was before, even after the bungling response to the virus.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
I'm not convinced it's such a great outcome. The elite getting away with outrageous shit because they can get away with it is probably not good for democracy. In a 2-party semi-democratic state we rely on the 2 parties maintaining some minimal standards.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
Funny how so many anti-Tories (not necessarily you) have both demanded that Cummings go and expressed a fervent wish that he should stay.
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
They want him gone - and gone before the Brexit extension deadline. The sole aim.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
Funny how so many anti-Tories (not necessarily you) have both demanded that Cummings go and expressed a fervent wish that he should stay.
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
They want him gone - and gone before the Brexit extension deadline. The sole aim.
You need to get over Brexit mate. It’s embarrassing. We’re going to leave on WTO terms with no extension. I’ve accepted it, why haven’t you?
As far as I can tell the government's "move on" line is making things worse. I think people have accepted that Dom is staying but it means the Tories have lost 3m+ voters. The whole party is now infected with it, even if Boris was to go before 2024 I don't see a route to majority government. The party has transformed itself from being on the side of the people to being the elite in about 7 days.
I actually think that Starmer now has a route to winning 100-120 seats. If he drops some of the socially lefty crazy culture war stuff like letting biological men into women's bathrooms etc... he might just be able to get a Blair style swing and end up with 320-340 seats in parliament.
None of this was possible a few days ago, the race is now completely open where it never was before, even after the bungling response to the virus.
Is this a PR balls-up of rare proportions? Yes. But you're making a lot of my case for me. In 4 years, are people who hate identity politics suddenly going to love it because of Dominic Cummings? Are they suddenly going to like sky-high taxes and socialism because of Cummings? Mass immigration because of Cummings? Political correctness because of Cummings? No, they're not.
There's no doubt that 'events' are capable of pissing voters off, perhaps even in the medium or long term (although I'm sceptical about the latter - no one gets angry about MPs' expenses now, and that was once a much bigger story than Dom).
Ultimately, if the recovery from the virus is good, then the Tories have a good chance of holding on to power. If it isn't, then it doesn't really matter what a single SpaD did or didn't do four years prior.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
Funny how so many anti-Tories (not necessarily you) have both demanded that Cummings go and expressed a fervent wish that he should stay.
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
They want him gone - and gone before the Brexit extension deadline. The sole aim.
You need to get over Brexit mate. It’s embarrassing. We’re going to leave on WTO terms with no extension. I’ve accepted it, why haven’t you?
Its because the main reason a small but significant proportion of brexiteers want to brexit is simply to cause pain to others they dislike.
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
Funny how so many anti-Tories (not necessarily you) have both demanded that Cummings go and expressed a fervent wish that he should stay.
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
I can't speak for them. You are trying to give the impression of refuting my argument, while actually refuting an argument that I did not present. Take your straw man elsewhere.
Rewinding 7 days, I think the right thing to do would have been to demote Dom to specific brexit duties until the end of the pandemic, "I understand that what he did was not acceptable to the vast majority of voters and fully recognise that he can no longer contribute to the government effort on the pandemic, Mr Cummings will stay on to be the driving force for finishing off Brexit but will not be involved in anything to do with the government's response to the virus".
I think everyone wins then, Dom stays in some capacity, he still guides the brexit stuff and the government shows it recognises that he is fatally wounded with voters on the virus. On Friday this would have been enough. It won't be now, and the party trying to close ranks and tell voters to move on is just going to make things worse.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
Most small (and many large) businesses already operate on the margins of viability, and will probably only be running at 20-30 per cent capacity under the Covid Safe guidance.
Theatres which can only fill every sixth seat; cosy restaurants with their capacity down from 30 covers to 8, factories whose lines can't operate without wholescale re-engineering.
Rishi Sunak is generally accepted to have played a blinder in the support offered, and is rightly finding ways of getting people back asap given the ruinous cost. But even with successful, simple messaging to make that happen, I can't see it being anything but utter economic carnage.
I agree that businesses that deal with a lot of people are going to find this difficult but they will need to adjust. So in a café if you have half the number of covers the overhead per cup of coffee sold increases. So the cost must increase too. Where possible overhead should be reduced, rents are going to have to fall, for example. Fewer staff will be required. Some will not survive the changes but none will survive a lockdown that runs through the summer and into the autumn.
That is simply unrealistic. Margins are very tight in hospitality. You simply cannot reduce overheads just like that and some of the measures talked about will require more staff not fewer. Nor can you double your prices.
1. If businesses are legally forced to operate in a manner which reduces their turnover to 20-30% of what it was before then they need to continue being supported or be given compensation, closed down and the owners can use that money to do something else entrepreneurial.
2. IMO guidance should be given. Guidance - it should not be a legal requirement. And businesses should take reasonable steps - reasonable in the context of their business. It is reasonable to have hand gel available, tables cleaned down, paper towels instead of air dryers, decent ventilation etc but not reasonable to expect venues where their whole shtick is getting people together to force them apart. Social closeness is the point of such venues. Forcing them to do the opposite is to kill them.
People should be advised but learn to take their own decisions about how they live.
We really need a proper debate about whether we are willing to live in a world without all the venues and activities which bring people close. I tried to start one the other day with my header. It really is needed. Life without many of the cultural, artistic, sporting and socialising activities we know and love is not life. It is mere existence. And it harms people in very real ways, as my family know to their cost only too well.
3. The government needs to work with the insurance industry to make the business interruption insurance policies business bought - expensively - real. Some burden-sharing between government, insurance companies and businesses is needed. But insurers have not treated their customers fairly. This has caused some anger and we need real action now not some ineffectual hand-wringing by the FCA in a few years time.
The switch from almost total to a complete lack of confidence in Gov't messaging may well dent both a health and economic recovery. The Cummings story and all the Gov't nonsense surrounding it is acting as a catalyst for that. As well as being bad news generally that will could hurt the Tories in 2024.
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.
We do need to move on
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
FFS get a sense of perspective. Thousands of jobs a day against 1. It is bizarre.
The problem is not out in the country @DavidL - the problem is that govt and media seem to be paralysed like a rabbit in the headlights. The Cummings Scandal seems to causing huge amount of diversion at Cabinet and PM level.
The thousands of job losses will catch the Media's attention when they figure out that they can use it as another stick with which to beat the hapless Boris.
And next month we have significant Brexit issues to hurl into the mix too. It is evolving into a Perfect Storm of political poop.
Lucky old Boris. He wanted the glory of being in charge....
There is also a problem in the country. I couldn't get through to the managing agent, an estate agency, of my accommodation recently on the emergency number. Estate agents working from home are often not working at all. I have received my 6 month electricity bill. It is an estimated bill as meter readers are not working. It is time for people to write to their MPs to ask when the country is going back to work.
The point of the Cummings story is to distract attention from the continuing shutdown. That is all. Shutdown supporters seem to back down when it comes to the crunch. Action is not their thing. The government should continue getting the country back to normal. The real question is how long will this take?
Yep! Ain't going to happen. The Cummings Albatross is fixed around the BoJo neck for all to see and refer to at every available opportunity. Which, for those of us of an anti-Tory persuasion, is the best outcome.
Funny how so many anti-Tories (not necessarily you) have both demanded that Cummings go and expressed a fervent wish that he should stay.
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
I can't speak for them. You are trying to give the impression of refuting my argument, while actually refuting an argument that I did not present. Take your straw man elsewhere.
I'll take it to a forum where several posters have indeed made both cases simultaneously, namely ... this one!
If you still see it totally in those terms you are just highlighting your political ineptitude. The papers have been reporting it in the way they have because of the reaction of their readers. Go look at comments on Mail online.
As far as I can tell the government's "move on" line is making things worse. I think people have accepted that Dom is staying but it means the Tories have lost 3m+ voters. The whole party is now infected with it, even if Boris was to go before 2024 I don't see a route to majority government. The party has transformed itself from being on the side of the people to being the elite in about 7 days.
I actually think that Starmer now has a route to winning 100-120 seats. If he drops some of the socially lefty crazy culture war stuff like letting biological men into women's bathrooms etc... he might just be able to get a Blair style swing and end up with 320-340 seats in parliament.
None of this was possible a few days ago, the race is now completely open where it never was before, even after the bungling response to the virus.
Is this a PR balls-up of rare proportions? Yes. But you're making a lot of my case for me. In 4 years, are people who hate identity politics suddenly going to love it because of Dominic Cummings? Are they suddenly going to like sky-high taxes and socialism because of Cummings? Mass immigration because of Cummings? Political correctness because of Cummings? No, they're not.
There's no doubt that 'events' are capable of pissing voters off, perhaps even in the medium or long term (although I'm sceptical about the latter - no one gets angry about MPs' expenses now, and that was once a much bigger story than Dom).
Ultimately, if the recovery from the virus is good, then the Tories have a good chance of holding on to power. If it isn't, then it doesn't really matter what a single SpaD did or didn't do four years prior.
No you're underestimating Kier. He's not Corbyn and he's not beholden to the insane left. I think he's captured all of the party machinery at last count so he's now in a position to tell the insane left to like it or lump it. As you can see in the last few days he's clearly taking that line with them.
As I said, if Kier moves to the centre on social issues he has a shot at a Blair style swing and a working majority. If he doesn't then it's going to be a very tough race but I think he's still more likely to win if Boris is still there.
Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.
Not that it matters now!
Starmer should focus on two things now:-
1. The lockdown easing measures and, in particular, whether they are being applied fairly. Or intelligently. See what I have already said about the absurdity of opening indoor shops before outside venues. Or allowing people to congregate in gardens but not go to a pub with a garden. Plus why the 2-metre advice (it’s not a rule) when most of Europe has it down to 1 metre.
2. Sunak’s plans to stop furlough, particularly the rumoured idea of asking businesses legally prevented from opening to pay 20% of wages and NI when they don’t have any income.
Completely agree with both points. Allowing outside venues for pubs and restaurants and meeting up under strict guidelines would make people far happier with continuing social distancing, and looks to be significantly safer than small indoor shops.
In any case, and away from Cummings - although I'm not on in the evenings (I've found that any social media late in the day makes it very difficult to get a good night's sleep), I noticed both @Cyclefree and @Anabobazina asking about pubs and restaurants being able to open outside venues.
I agree with both of them. I think it's foolish to be opening small shops again before this. The weight of evidence has been piling up that staying 2 metres (or even 1.5 or 1 metres) apart outside is, if not perfectly safe, amongst the lowest risk things that you can do.
I've been banging on for several weeks about finding the low-hanging fruit, and given that we're social creatures and pubs and restaurants are genuinely important parts of our culture, then trying this first would be a good idea. After all, restrictions and social distancing can only last when we all comply with them, and making things more pleasant during social distancing would improve acceptance and maximise the period that we can sustain it if necessary.
I'd suggest starting it at 2 metre gaps between people, requiring a system where people get their own drinks and food while bar staff stand back from them (wearing masks), and having household groups all separated by 2m or more at all times and a time limit of one hour maximum at the site for the household groups, and staying outside at all times (yes, even if it rains). And have it emphasised that this is a trial thing only that will be withdrawn if it looks like it's being abused or R spikes up.
I truly think it would help the mental health of loads of people and help the chances of the relaxed-lockdown-level being sustained as long as necessary, while giving the least chance of a spike in Covid-19 cases. It does look very much like one of those low hanging fruits I've been banging on about until everyone's bored of me.
Cheers Andy – yes, it's baffling why the government prefers to liberate markets (very busy and crowded) to pub beer gardens (much more easily managed).
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.
I saw a survey a while back in which people from various countries were asked which country, except their own, they'd recommend to a young person to have a good life.
Brits backed Australia, and having been there a few times, I can see why, though I'd prefer California myself. Obviously Australia has its ugly side, like all countries, but for decent middle class life, it must be one of the best places in the world. People are mostly friendly and they speak (a corruption of) English. And it's warm and sunny. Sydney has a stunningly beautiful setting, though Melbourne is a lot drabber.
I visited Australia some years back (Adelaide, Woomera, Sydney). What really struck me was that some of it seemed on the margin in terms of water supply, including big cities. It would worry me if I wanted to emigrate there.
That's true and it worries many Aussies too. Though I think Sydney actually gets twice as much rainfall as London, doesn't it? (4 inches vs 1.5 inches/month)
Their skin cancer rates are horrific as well.
But many people, including me, find mild desert climates good to live in. I mean, you wake up every morning, you feel the warm sun on you and you feel good about yourself. I couldn't live in the humidity and mosquitoes of tropical Queensland (or Mississippi), but coastal southern California or dry Australia are my ideal climates.
And in the English language and friendly people and you have a winning combination, and one that many English people buy into.
Thank you. We were staying with a friend in Adelaide and I was struck by the care she took to conserve water for all purposes - we even drank the stuff off the roof. But the street gutters etc are also designed for seasonal torrents. Fascinating place, Australia!
Somebody told me that Adelaide is the driest city in the driest state on the driest inhabited continent in the world.
I have to say, it struck me as a particularly dull town both times I visited, but I didn't know anybody there, so probably didn't get the best out of it. But my memory is of walking round endless blocks of the city looking for something interesting to do.
And I hear it really comes alive for the festival.
As far as I can tell the government's "move on" line is making things worse. I think people have accepted that Dom is staying but it means the Tories have lost 3m+ voters. The whole party is now infected with it, even if Boris was to go before 2024 I don't see a route to majority government. The party has transformed itself from being on the side of the people to being the elite in about 7 days.
I actually think that Starmer now has a route to winning 100-120 seats. If he drops some of the socially lefty crazy culture war stuff like letting biological men into women's bathrooms etc... he might just be able to get a Blair style swing and end up with 320-340 seats in parliament.
None of this was possible a few days ago, the race is now completely open where it never was before, even after the bungling response to the virus.
Is this a PR balls-up of rare proportions? Yes. But you're making a lot of my case for me. In 4 years, are people who hate identity politics suddenly going to love it because of Dominic Cummings? Are they suddenly going to like sky-high taxes and socialism because of Cummings? Mass immigration because of Cummings? Political correctness because of Cummings? No, they're not.
There's no doubt that 'events' are capable of pissing voters off, perhaps even in the medium or long term (although I'm sceptical about the latter - no one gets angry about MPs' expenses now, and that was once a much bigger story than Dom).
Ultimately, if the recovery from the virus is good, then the Tories have a good chance of holding on to power. If it isn't, then it doesn't really matter what a single SpaD did or didn't do four years prior.
No you're underestimating Kier. He's not Corbyn and he's not beholden to the insane left. I think he's captured all of the party machinery at last count so he's now in a position to tell the insane left to like it or lump it. As you can see in the last few days he's clearly taking that line with them.
As I said, if Kier moves to the centre on social issues he has a shot at a Blair style swing and a working majority. If he doesn't then it's going to be a very tough race but I think he's still more likely to win if Boris is still there.
Us and them.
That will be the attack line. Boris came to power saying that this time it would be different; and that there wouldn't be one recovery for us and another for them.
This episode undoes that rhetoric and such action as there was. Sacking Cummings reinforces the original rhetoric. No one, whoever, they are, can pull rank above the people.
Of course if he does sack Cummings that's a world of pain for him also as no one thinks he has any idea about what he wants for Britain, nor how to achieve it and at least Cummings had that. But that's another issue.
And like you, I have now left the Conservative Party. For me the straw was the changing, or promising to review policy to protect Dom move.
Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.
I said Anglosphere for a reason
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
I always think of Australians as Brits trying to be American and not quite managing it. The countries we are closest to understand that English does not equate to British. I’d say that outside the UK that’s Australia, NZ, Ireland and white South Africa.
Regarding the USA,I've always felt the UK readily absorbs the worst bits but fails to successfully adopt the best bits.
We don't have American gun laws or health system that I've noticed.
For me, the real game changer could be the twenty-minute test. If it can be made self-contained and cheap and readily available AND numbers of infection are low at the time, the amount of possibilities it unlocks are astonishing.
Spit into this tube of gunk and put it in boiling water for twenty minutes and see if it changes colour. If not, you're clear; if it does, go and self-isolate for two weeks (not necessarily in Durham).
Visit your old Mum, do this and wait at the front door for twenty minutes. If all are clear; go in and don't worry about social distancing in that house.
Go to a sporting event or artistic event or theatre - set this up so it can be done outside and wait - everyone must pass to be allowed inside social distancing. Logistically challenging, but could be done.
Make it a part of the departure process to get on a plane; everyone must pass and if they are, no problem.
If you have it outside a restaurant, either stick to social distancing in the outside garden, or do this and wait for twenty minutes and if everyone passes, in you go and don't worry about social distancing.
Hell, if we get this and it's very common, we could hunt down and kill off the virus.
Things I'm bloody glad I have in lockdown working from home:
Two cafetieres - one large, one small Two (three if you include the one for the telly) Bose wireless sound systems 4x Charles Tyrwhitt 100% cotton non-iron short sleeve shirts A Highway Apollo 18-speed bicycle One set of free weights An AMPLE stock of wine (As importantly) an AMPLE stock of Peroni Libera Zero Alcohol beer A Smart Pass from Ocado An Amazon Prime membership A Netflix membership Oh, and of course, PB!
Comments
Spain the majority have to be able to buy a house and support themselves many successful business people own second homes here. I would agree that on paper I would have been more Tuscany than Costs Blanca but in the real world it has become a classless society with peoples past lives of little importance to social mixing.
Coupang warehouse turns into coronavirus hotbed
https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2020/05/119_290225.html
A logistics center operated by e-commerce platform giant Coupang has emerged as a new hotbed for the spread of COVID-19, with the number of cases linked to the facility nearing 40, according to the health authorities, Wednesday.
The Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) is carrying out an epidemiological investigation based on the presumption that the logistics center in Bucheon, Gyeonggi Province, has not abided by basic social distancing rules aimed at containing the spread of the contagious disease.
The rules call for people to stay home when they feel ill, keep a distance of about two meters between each other, wash their hands frequently, wear face masks and ventilate indoor spaces regularly.
The authorities are conducting coronavirus tests on all employees at the facility to find any additional infected persons promptly in a bid to stop any further spread of the virus. The estimated number of employees there is 3,600....
No cut through
People just want to move on
https://twitter.com/kitty_donaldson/status/1265569770256109569
Or if he gives succour to those who aid and abet genocide?
Everything in Dom's experience told him they would swallow @Drove to test Eyesight@ hook, line and sinker
Theatres which can only fill every sixth seat; cosy restaurants with their capacity down from 30 covers to 8, factories whose lines can't operate without wholescale re-engineering.
Rishi Sunak is generally accepted to have played a blinder in the support offered, and is rightly finding ways of getting people back asap given the ruinous cost. But even with successful, simple messaging to make that happen, I can't see it being anything but utter economic carnage.
The responsibility for making that clear messaging happen lies with Boris Johnson. He thinks he can weather the storm, and he may, but his credibility in delivering the tough messages is shot.
The Johnson-Cummings machine recognised the absolute necessity of simple, straightforward messaging in Brexit, the 2019 election and the early stages of this - which is what led to the general acceptance of lockdown once they got round to starting it. The two of them have utterly bombed it with their performance in the last five days.
Ironically, it rather proves how important Cummings is in identifying the buttons to be pressed and thumping them with a lump hammer. Because left to his own devices as salesman without a message, Johnson flounders.
But I want it to be true!
Considering whether an activity needs to continue for the business to operate
Keeping the activity time involved as short as possible
Using screens or barriers to separate people from each other
Using back-to-back or side-to-side working whenever possible
Staggering arrival and departure times
Reducing the number of people each person has contact with by using ‘fixed teams or partnering’
None of this is rocket science and it has been operating largely successfully in supermarkets for months now.
Absolutely fucked
3 or 4 of you keep trying to pretend the 2 are the same and loads of people keep calling you out on it. You are either thick (which I on't believe you are) or deliberately trying to mislead people.
Fortunately, as the Mail poll showed last night, the public aren't buying your pathetic attempts to justify Cummings actions leaving home when he and his family had Covid-19.
The two earlier posters are by default claiming Kinnock and Ali's issues trump Cummings' escapades. Interestingly Jenricks little excursions have been lost in the haze.
Let's take the odious Stephen Kinnock first. Look at the story, and the only conclusion one can draw is that someone from South Wales Police was bored and mischievous.
Ali by contrast is a worry. Starmer would do well to launch an investigation
Frankly a bit of prodding of politicians to lift the remaining restrictions would be welcome.
But the dog ate it
I think
No cut through
People just want to move on"
https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1265567415838167041?s=20
"Bubble story
No cut through
People just want to move on"
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1265570902256869377?s=20
Wales has never convincingly been below 1 in the last couple of weeks. NI and Scotland were similar a couple of weeks ago, NI looks to be above 0.9 now, whilst Scotland is around 0.75.
London has edged back up to above 0.8. Rest of England is decent and maybe a little below London, but obviously that masks local variations.
And obviously there is a community vs institution aspect to this
We will, but still with immense damage to track and trace, once Cummings has gone.
Until Boris demonstrates their is a penalty for birthday jollies against the rules we wont move on.
Simples
The idea of track and trace is to find and test all contacts of infected people to see if they too are infected. And if so get them to self isolate for a couple of weeks.
The app is potentially useful, but not essential to a track and trace program.
I really cannot understand why people like yourself, who are understandably anxious to open up the economy again, are so set against the idea. It is out best chance to have some sort of working economy until a vaccine is available.
https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/1265377599980818433?s=19
Daily Mail even agrees with me though
You will soon be able to borrow the LD minibus for a trip out with those that agree with you Comrade
And its the same with Lloyd, Campbell, whoever. They didn't write the rules. That is the transgression. Many many of the Tory voters saying Cummings is a liar who should be sacked will have done *something* that CumStaines can prattle on about on OrderOrder.com. That they have isn't the issue - its having done so HAVING INSTRUCTED EVERYONE NOT YO DO SO that is the issue.
He could have apologised profusely and humbly - "I am a dad, I panicked". He would have been ok.
In Leominster there be a ducking stool...
(Fans of Boris may be interested to know that it is also called a Cucking Stool).
https://www.ft.com/video/e82b5a00-3ad5-4d2c-9703-ff14942aa5b1
I remember a 'classical liberal' that used to post on here who claimed that UK gun laws actually made us more unsafe than the USA and got very excited at the idea of 3D printed guns. He certainly added to the entertainment value of the place.
The lack of an apology is really starting to cut.
Surely he has other things to do, than be on here all day.
But my point is that everyone will have a different place where that line is drawn, so if I expect my line is always adhered to, then I would be both unreasonable and often disappointed.
As long as there is a broad range of newscasters out there, it shouldnt matter if one crosses my particular line, or any other posters particular line on a rare occasion. I dont see how alternative arrangements can work without quite severely limiting the freedom of the press?
Far right whataboutery post that falls at the first hurdle
The Nissan/Renault restructuring plans ought to be very good news indeed for the UK, as the importance of Sunderland was set to increase. There is now an element of doubt about that.
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13404464
..A test of the new approach could come in several places around the world, such as how Renault and Nissan work together in Europe and perhaps South America, as well as how Nissan and Mitsubishi cooperate in Southeast Asia and Japan.
Under the new working relationship, Nissan could take the lead in Europe on crossover sport-utility vehicles (SUVs), while operating as a “follower” in commercial vans and small city cars, using versions produced by Renault, the sources said.
Nissan’s factory in Sunderland in the United Kingdom is of particular importance, they said.
Renault and Nissan are planning to turn the assembly plant into a hub for SUVs such as Nissan’s Qashqai and Juke, and potentially their Renault counterparts, the Kadjar and Captur. The companies are working on the plans, though it’s not clear when a final decision will be made, the sources said.
Whether Renault vehicles could be built profitably at the plant is unclear, given the uncertainty over tariffs as Britain leaves the European Union, according to one of the sources.
“It should be a pure economic transaction, but it’s also likely a political decision, too,” he said...
I did cancel one due a month or two ago, and don't mind going in. Will probably advise my parents to delay... not sure if they'll agree.
There are unreasonable people on both sides, and always will be.
Urging the country to "move on" from the scandal, over which nearly 40 Conservative MPs have publicly attacked Mr Cummings, Robert Jenrick told the Today programme: "If there are no other options, if you don't have ready access to childcare, you can do as Dominic Cummings chose to do."
He added: "The guidelines say you must do your best, but they appreciate that family life poses particular challenges and in order to protect you children you are allowed to exercise degree of personal judgement."
Mr Jenrick also confirmed there would be no review of the fines handed out to people travelling with their children during the lockdown, despite colleague Matt Hancock suggesting yesterday this would be looked at.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/27/dominic-cummings-news-latest-coronavirus-lockdown-uk-boris-johnson/
Due to who he is and not wishing to add to the controversy.
If it had been a normal member of the public , they would have issued a FPN , without a second thought.
1. The lockdown easing measures and, in particular, whether they are being applied fairly. Or intelligently. See what I have already said about the absurdity of opening indoor shops before outside venues. Or allowing people to congregate in gardens but not go to a pub with a garden. Plus why the 2-metre advice (it’s not a rule) when most of Europe has it down to 1 metre.
2. Sunak’s plans to stop furlough, particularly the rumoured idea of asking businesses legally prevented from opening to pay 20% of wages and NI when they don’t have any income.
As I am sure he will, do.
Not play daft games during a crisis.
I’d been feeling ropey for two weeks when I went into hospital on 2 April, ever since I’d come back up to Manchester from Westminster
Very pleased that he is feeling much better
Probably more important than ever that Biden wins in November now.
seem to be paralysed like a rabbit in the headlights. The Cummings Scandal seems to causing huge amount of diversion at Cabinet and PM level.
The thousands of job losses will catch the Media's attention when they figure out that they can use it as another stick with which to beat the hapless Boris.
And next month we have significant Brexit issues to hurl into the mix too. It is evolving into a Perfect Storm of political poop.
Lucky old Boris. He wanted the glory of being in charge....
That couldn't possibly be a transparent ploy to allow them to claim they were right no matter what the outcome? No, surely not.
I actually think that Starmer now has a route to winning 100-120 seats. If he drops some of the socially lefty crazy culture war stuff like letting biological men into women's bathrooms etc... he might just be able to get a Blair style swing and end up with 320-340 seats in parliament.
None of this was possible a few days ago, the race is now completely open where it never was before, even after the bungling response to the virus.
There's no doubt that 'events' are capable of pissing voters off, perhaps even in the medium or long term (although I'm sceptical about the latter - no one gets angry about MPs' expenses now, and that was once a much bigger story than Dom).
Ultimately, if the recovery from the virus is good, then the Tories have a good chance of holding on to power. If it isn't, then it doesn't really matter what a single SpaD did or didn't do four years prior.
I think everyone wins then, Dom stays in some capacity, he still guides the brexit stuff and the government shows it recognises that he is fatally wounded with voters on the virus. On Friday this would have been enough. It won't be now, and the party trying to close ranks and tell voters to move on is just going to make things worse.
1. If businesses are legally forced to operate in a manner which reduces their turnover to 20-30% of what it was before then they need to continue being supported or be given compensation, closed down and the owners can use that money to do something else entrepreneurial.
2. IMO guidance should be given. Guidance - it should not be a legal requirement. And businesses should take reasonable steps - reasonable in the context of their business. It is reasonable to have hand gel available, tables cleaned down, paper towels instead of air dryers, decent ventilation etc but not reasonable to expect venues where their whole shtick is getting people together to force them apart. Social closeness is the point of such venues. Forcing them to do the opposite is to kill them.
People should be advised but learn to take their own decisions about how they live.
We really need a proper debate about whether we are willing to live in a world without all the venues and activities which bring people close. I tried to start one the other day with my header. It really is needed. Life without many of the cultural, artistic, sporting and socialising activities we know and love is not life. It is mere existence. And it harms people in very real ways, as my family know to their cost only too well.
3. The government needs to work with the insurance industry to make the business interruption insurance policies business bought - expensively - real. Some burden-sharing between government, insurance companies and businesses is needed. But insurers have not treated their customers fairly. This has caused some anger and we need real action now not some ineffectual hand-wringing by the FCA in a few years time.
The point of the Cummings story is to distract attention from the continuing shutdown. That is all. Shutdown supporters seem to back down when it comes to the crunch. Action is not their thing. The government should continue getting the country back to normal. The real question is how long will this take?
As I said, if Kier moves to the centre on social issues he has a shot at a Blair style swing and a working majority. If he doesn't then it's going to be a very tough race but I think he's still more likely to win if Boris is still there.
Allowing outside venues for pubs and restaurants and meeting up under strict guidelines would make people far happier with continuing social distancing, and looks to be significantly safer than small indoor shops.
I hope they rethink this.
I have to say, it struck me as a particularly dull town both times I visited, but I didn't know anybody there, so probably didn't get the best out of it. But my memory is of walking round endless blocks of the city looking for something interesting to do.
And I hear it really comes alive for the festival.
That will be the attack line. Boris came to power saying that this time it would be different; and that there wouldn't be one recovery for us and another for them.
This episode undoes that rhetoric and such action as there was. Sacking Cummings reinforces the original rhetoric. No one, whoever, they are, can pull rank above the people.
Of course if he does sack Cummings that's a world of pain for him also as no one thinks he has any idea about what he wants for Britain, nor how to achieve it and at least Cummings had that. But that's another issue.
And like you, I have now left the Conservative Party. For me the straw was the changing, or promising to review policy to protect Dom move.
Spit into this tube of gunk and put it in boiling water for twenty minutes and see if it changes colour. If not, you're clear; if it does, go and self-isolate for two weeks (not necessarily in Durham).
Visit your old Mum, do this and wait at the front door for twenty minutes. If all are clear; go in and don't worry about social distancing in that house.
Go to a sporting event or artistic event or theatre - set this up so it can be done outside and wait - everyone must pass to be allowed inside social distancing. Logistically challenging, but could be done.
Make it a part of the departure process to get on a plane; everyone must pass and if they are, no problem.
If you have it outside a restaurant, either stick to social distancing in the outside garden, or do this and wait for twenty minutes and if everyone passes, in you go and don't worry about social distancing.
Hell, if we get this and it's very common, we could hunt down and kill off the virus.
Two cafetieres - one large, one small
Two (three if you include the one for the telly) Bose wireless sound systems
4x Charles Tyrwhitt 100% cotton non-iron short sleeve shirts
A Highway Apollo 18-speed bicycle
One set of free weights
An AMPLE stock of wine
(As importantly) an AMPLE stock of Peroni Libera Zero Alcohol beer
A Smart Pass from Ocado
An Amazon Prime membership
A Netflix membership
Oh, and of course, PB!
https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1265563351171694593