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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Social Distancing: How Far? How Long For?

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  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606

    I will revise my prediction on polling.

    Parity by the end of July.

    End of June imo.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    imho we are watching an administration die tonight.

    Technically, it may take fours years before they actually shoot the horse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    No

    If Corbyn were still around, Johnson would have got away with this.

    Unfortunately for Johnson, Starmer is - or seems to be - squeaky clean.

    I would be careful what you write here. Your final statement could end up being a hostage to fortune.

    All sorts of people have all sorts of skeletons in their cupboards.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,739

    Definitely agree we need to get back to normal . A huge overreaction the last few weeks . We know the mortality rate is well under 1% and that kids especially are not in any real danger . If people get indignant by Cummings and disobey lockdown rules then so much the better .

    So how do you come up with that bollocks of 'well under 1%'? With 60,000 plus deaths are you claiming over 10% of us have had it?
    err yeah? Antibody testing seems to suggest that .Also not sure where 60K deaths comes from?
    Excess death figure.
    Yes but some of those deaths are caused becasue of the lockdown not covid -19
    So you are ignoring the data because it doesn't back up your claim.
    I think 1% is about right, given the data available.

    But these people talk as though a fatality rate of 1% would justify "going back to normal". If we went back to normal, with an R of about 2.4, a 1% fatality rate would give us at least 400,000 deaths directly from COVID-19 alone. To say nothing of the effect of the NHS collapsing within a month or two.

    This stuff is just sheer craziness. It's as though these people have been asleep for the past two months.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,988

    Definitely agree we need to get back to normal . A huge overreaction the last few weeks . We know the mortality rate is well under 1% and that kids especially are not in any real danger . If people get indignant by Cummings and disobey lockdown rules then so much the better .

    So how do you come up with that bollocks of 'well under 1%'? With 60,000 plus deaths are you claiming over 10% of us have had it?
    err yeah? Antibody testing seems to suggest that .Also not sure where 60K deaths comes from?
    Excess death figure.
    Yes but some of those deaths are caused becasue of the lockdown not covid -19
    So you are ignoring the data because it doesn't back up your claim.
    No I am explaining it? Excess deaths do not equal covid-19 deaths . They will include a fair few who dies because they could not access (or were scared to ) access hospitals
    Time to call a truce on this. Sorry for coming across a bit belligerently.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    edited May 2020
    "We are better than you" sums it up well.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,806

    Definitely agree we need to get back to normal . A huge overreaction the last few weeks . We know the mortality rate is well under 1% and that kids especially are not in any real danger . If people get indignant by Cummings and disobey lockdown rules then so much the better .

    So how do you come up with that bollocks of 'well under 1%'? With 60,000 plus deaths are you claiming over 10% of us have had it?
    err yeah? Antibody testing seems to suggest that .Also not sure where 60K deaths comes from?
    Excess death figure.
    Yes but some of those deaths are caused becasue of the lockdown not covid -19
    So you are ignoring the data because it doesn't back up your claim.
    No I am explaining it? Excess deaths do not equal covid-19 deaths . They will include a fair few who dies because they could not access (or were scared to ) access hospitals
    Time to call a truce on this. Sorry for coming across a bit belligerently.
    and me ! Just really frustrated with this situatin because I sincerely believe the long term effects of lockdown is worse
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,284
    eek said:

    isam said:

    The detailed reasons why the SPI-B member is so angry need noting:

    https://twitter.com/reicherstephen/status/1264610669237862407?s=21

    He should have said "To show he is not above the law, Dom will be treated the same as any member of the public who broke the lockdown - £30 fine, doubled if not paid within a fortnight"
    Well quite. All the people yowling 'One rule for them!!' and demanding Cummings' dismissal might go a bit quiet and pale if all their lockdown etiquette was going to be assessed and they'd lose their main source of income if found wanting. They're not demanding he be treated the same, they're demanding he be treated worse. Very odd.
    Nope, those who set the rules (as Cummings did) really should be making sure they more than meet those rules otherwise they risk being caught out.

    Setting the rules and then wilfully and gleefully ignoring them isn't going to do you any favours.

    And in this case people will remember and it will live on. The labour party will be able to tug at this string for years to come and for a lot of people who have lost relatives it will be a heartfelt string.
    So that's not demanding the same rules for everyone is it?
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited May 2020


    Deaths due TO covid-19 (not WITH covid-19) - hard to say exactly but 25K? - even if all the official WITH deaths counted thats only 36K so 1% at most

    Best figure we have is 5/may ONS death certificates, cause of death 32k (as distinct from deaths involving, which they also tally). That's England and Wales, so add maybe 10% to get whole UK = 35k.

    On that same day, excess deaths were at 56k. Some of those may be due to lockdown, but there's not much evidence it's a large chunk of the difference.

    The tricky part here is we don't know the time period the antibody survey refers to, and also the gap between infection and people testing positive is a little uncertain (2 weeks?). Then time from infection>death can be 3 more weeks. Too many unknowns.



  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,138
    tlg86 said:

    @Stodge - yeah, polling could save Boris. But, I'd suggest if a poll comes out in the next few days showing something ridiculous like a 12-15 point swing in one go, that might be enough.

    Actually, thinking about this a bit more, these silly poll leads that the Tories have had could be really bad news for the Tories. If the polls had steadily closed to something like Tories 39 Labour 33, then the scope for a huge polling shift would have been reduced.

    As it is, a lot more of the 45-47 saying Tory at the moment are probably quite soft, meaning there's greater scope for a big change overnight.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kyf_100 said:

    Social distancing Guernsey style: (23 days no new cases, one remaining active case)

    The trouble is they can't stay isolated forever - what happens the second planes are flying in and out again with finance types from London every day?
    A lot of that is now WFH - and whether H is London or St Peter Port doesn't really make much difference. At the moment (and since mid-March) all arrivals self-quarantine for 14 days (yes, it works).
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    @GenericCabinetMinister
    Dom is god. Baby don't purge me, don't purge me no more.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    @Stodge - yeah, polling could save Boris. But, I'd suggest if a poll comes out in the next few days showing something ridiculous like a 12-15 point swing in one go, that might be enough.

    Actually, thinking about this a bit more, these silly poll leads that the Tories have had could be really bad news for the Tories. If the polls had steadily closed to something like Tories 39 Labour 33, then the scope for a huge polling shift would have been reduced.

    As it is, a lot more of the 45-47 saying Tory at the moment are probably quite soft, meaning there's greater scope for a big change overnight.
    The 18-34 camp has previously been quite luke warm on Starmer - I suspect that will change now
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,284
    DougSeal said:

    isam said:

    The detailed reasons why the SPI-B member is so angry need noting:

    https://twitter.com/reicherstephen/status/1264610669237862407?s=21

    He should have said "To show he is not above the law, Dom will be treated the same as any member of the public who broke the lockdown - £30 fine, doubled if not paid within a fortnight"
    Well quite. All the people yowling 'One rule for them!!' and demanding Cummings' dismissal might go a bit quiet and pale if all their lockdown etiquette was going to be assessed and they'd lose their main source of income if found wanting. They're not demanding he be treated the same, they're demanding he be treated worse. Very odd.
    I’ve had plenty of enquiries from employers on this. Usually “x was supposed to be self isolating but y saw him at the park. Is that gross misconduct?” type of thing. So people are scared of the consequences of flouting the rules
    But that does involve the workplace doesn't it, as presumably that employee would otherwise have been at work? In general, I am not aware of the principle that people lose their jobs over regulatory infringements (parking tickets, speeding fines) committed in their private lives. Perhaps I'm naive.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,662
    That is the great unanswered question. What's in it for Boris? What useful service is Cummings providing? Ironically if Boris did have an answer for that, he could have staged a face-saving move by "demoting" Cummings to be Head of X.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    Calm down! Enjoy today's circus for what it is, a circus and with lots and lots of clowns.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,849
    Apparently Dom was right, it's all about Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1264630747459133447?s=20
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,138

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    https://xkcd.com/1122/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,662
    By the look of his tie, SKS supports the same team as David Cameron, Aston Ham.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837
    A quick look at some European polling this evening.

    First, to Ireland and Leo Varadkar's Fine Gael has surged into a clear lead according to the latest Ireland Thinks poll. FG are on 36% (+15), SF on 27% (+2) and FF on a disastrous 16% (-6).

    Not much change in Slovakia where the centre-right O'LaNO bloc leads the opposition Social Democrats 23-22.

    In Poland, the governing PiS has seen its normally huge lead slashed with a surg e in support for the Civic Coalition - the former is down four, the latter up nine but the Government still leads by 16 points (42-26).

    In Germany, the Union leads by 22 points from the SPD which has overtaken the Greens for second - the numbers 38-16-15.

    One country where the Government isn't doing so well is Belgium where a poll in the Flanders region has the Opposition VB (Vlaams Belang) in the lead moving up six to 25 points. The lead Flemish Party in the Federal Government, the New Flemish Alliance is down six to 20% with its partner parties, the Christian Democrats and Liberal Democrats both down to to 12% and 14% respectively.

    The next election for the Flemish Parliament is 2024.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267

    Lockdown is over. People have - quite rightly - bent the rules. Time to be sensible and adopt a risk segmentation approach.

    The problem is, nobody has thought through the easing of lockdown and the precautions that should already be in place. So far all we have been given are some dates, and little else. It is a really poor show.

    Before you know it we will be back to R over one and a second spike. Chaos!
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650

    That is the great unanswered question. What's in it for Boris? What useful service is Cummings providing? Ironically if Boris did have an answer for that, he could have staged a face-saving move by "demoting" Cummings to be Head of X.
    Cummings is an unparalleled opposition communicator; he and Ken Livingstone are among the only people to beat New Labour in a big vote. The tragedy is that a few people, including him and his alleged boss, think that makes him a strategist.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518

    Apparently Dom was right, it's all about Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1264630747459133447?s=20

    I'm losing the plot. I seem to remember the Reverend Fraser lost his job because he was allowing poor people to sleep on the steps of his church when the economy last went to shit due to capitalist nihilists who thought the rules applied to little people like Cummings.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    edited May 2020

    eek said:

    isam said:

    The detailed reasons why the SPI-B member is so angry need noting:

    https://twitter.com/reicherstephen/status/1264610669237862407?s=21

    He should have said "To show he is not above the law, Dom will be treated the same as any member of the public who broke the lockdown - £30 fine, doubled if not paid within a fortnight"
    Well quite. All the people yowling 'One rule for them!!' and demanding Cummings' dismissal might go a bit quiet and pale if all their lockdown etiquette was going to be assessed and they'd lose their main source of income if found wanting. They're not demanding he be treated the same, they're demanding he be treated worse. Very odd.
    Nope, those who set the rules (as Cummings did) really should be making sure they more than meet those rules otherwise they risk being caught out.

    Setting the rules and then wilfully and gleefully ignoring them isn't going to do you any favours.

    And in this case people will remember and it will live on. The labour party will be able to tug at this string for years to come and for a lot of people who have lost relatives it will be a heartfelt string.
    So that's not demanding the same rules for everyone is it?
    The rules are the same - but most people who set them, are sensible and bright enough to ensure they don't get close to breaking them or put in a position where it looks like they might have broken them.

    Oh you can be Boris and his cronies and create a set of rules and then completely ignore them because "those rules are for the little people"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492

    Definitely agree we need to get back to normal . A huge overreaction the last few weeks . We know the mortality rate is well under 1% and that kids especially are not in any real danger . If people get indignant by Cummings and disobey lockdown rules then so much the better .

    So how do you come up with that bollocks of 'well under 1%'? With 60,000 plus deaths are you claiming over 10% of us have had it?
    err yeah? Antibody testing seems to suggest that .Also not sure where 60K deaths comes from?
    Excess death figure.
    Yes but some of those deaths are caused becasue of the lockdown not covid -19
    So you are ignoring the data because it doesn't back up your claim.
    No I am explaining it? Excess deaths do not equal covid-19 deaths . They will include a fair few who dies because they could not access (or were scared to ) access hospitals
    Why do you think it is that the excess deaths are heavily concentrated in areas with most covid, yet very low in low covid areas under same lockdown?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,595
    edited May 2020
    There is a lot of frustration, fear and anger about the CV lockdown. This goes far beyond Cummings. Cummings is a catalyst.

    Boris has unwittingly positioned his government to be the recipient of all of that.

    The question is why. What was worse than that?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,806
    Foxy said:

    Definitely agree we need to get back to normal . A huge overreaction the last few weeks . We know the mortality rate is well under 1% and that kids especially are not in any real danger . If people get indignant by Cummings and disobey lockdown rules then so much the better .

    So how do you come up with that bollocks of 'well under 1%'? With 60,000 plus deaths are you claiming over 10% of us have had it?
    err yeah? Antibody testing seems to suggest that .Also not sure where 60K deaths comes from?
    Excess death figure.
    Yes but some of those deaths are caused becasue of the lockdown not covid -19
    So you are ignoring the data because it doesn't back up your claim.
    No I am explaining it? Excess deaths do not equal covid-19 deaths . They will include a fair few who dies because they could not access (or were scared to ) access hospitals
    Why do you think it is that the excess deaths are heavily concentrated in areas with most covid, yet very low in low covid areas under same lockdown?
    If thats the case it could be that hospitals are clamming up more in those areas?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,849

    Apparently Dom was right, it's all about Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1264630747459133447?s=20

    I'm losing the plot. I seem to remember the Reverend Fraser lost his job because he was allowing poor people to sleep on the steps of his church when the economy last went to shit due to capitalist nihilists who thought the rules applied to little people like Cummings.
    Brexit derangement syndrome.

    If I were cynical I might think the rev saw a chance for more media exposure on the reactionary side of the culture war. But I'm not cynical.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    Different social distancing rules around the world:

    WHO/Singapore: 1m
    Germany/Austria: 1.5m
    USA CDC / UK: 2m

    Wonder what the "Science" behind that is....

    1m makes my life immensely easier for the next year.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    Anecdata alert! Plenty of first time Tory voters (here in part of the Red Wall that stayed Labour but saw a large upsurge in the Tory vote) very unhappy with Boris, if Facebook is anything to go by.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Lockdown is over. People have - quite rightly - bent the rules. Time to be sensible and adopt a risk segmentation approach.

    The problem is, nobody has thought through the easing of lockdown and the precautions that should already be in place. So far all we have been given are some dates, and little else. It is a really poor show.

    Before you know it we will be back to R over one and a second spike. Chaos!
    People are losing their fear of it though. It’s statistically safe for fit under 50s.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    Apparently Dom was right, it's all about Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1264630747459133447?s=20

    As a (supposedly) fellow liberal Anglican it pains me to say this, but Giles Fraser really is Dan Hodges with a dog collar... reliably wrong in any situation.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,806
    Scott_xP said:
    Utterly stupid thing to do by Ms Patel.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,425
    Bush Telegraph: Has to be said, my Wedding Cake Tree (Cornus controversa variegata) is looking spectacular right now - completely smothered in flowers:





  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,284
    eek said:

    eek said:

    isam said:

    The detailed reasons why the SPI-B member is so angry need noting:

    https://twitter.com/reicherstephen/status/1264610669237862407?s=21

    He should have said "To show he is not above the law, Dom will be treated the same as any member of the public who broke the lockdown - £30 fine, doubled if not paid within a fortnight"
    Well quite. All the people yowling 'One rule for them!!' and demanding Cummings' dismissal might go a bit quiet and pale if all their lockdown etiquette was going to be assessed and they'd lose their main source of income if found wanting. They're not demanding he be treated the same, they're demanding he be treated worse. Very odd.
    Nope, those who set the rules (as Cummings did) really should be making sure they more than meet those rules otherwise they risk being caught out.

    Setting the rules and then wilfully and gleefully ignoring them isn't going to do you any favours.

    And in this case people will remember and it will live on. The labour party will be able to tug at this string for years to come and for a lot of people who have lost relatives it will be a heartfelt string.
    So that's not demanding the same rules for everyone is it?
    The rules are the same - but most people who set them, are sensible and bright enough to ensure they don't get close to breaking them or put in a position where it looks like they might have broken them.

    Oh you can be Boris and his cronies and create a set of rules and then completely ignore them because "those rules are for the little people"
    So the rules are the same but the penalties for breaking them are not the same.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    Maggie Thatcher?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    isam said:

    The detailed reasons why the SPI-B member is so angry need noting:

    https://twitter.com/reicherstephen/status/1264610669237862407?s=21

    He should have said "To show he is not above the law, Dom will be treated the same as any member of the public who broke the lockdown - £30 fine, doubled if not paid within a fortnight"
    Well quite. All the people yowling 'One rule for them!!' and demanding Cummings' dismissal might go a bit quiet and pale if all their lockdown etiquette was going to be assessed and they'd lose their main source of income if found wanting. They're not demanding he be treated the same, they're demanding he be treated worse. Very odd.
    Lets assess my etiquette.

    Since lockdown started have not been more than 100ft away from my home and that is only to take the bins out.

    Am I pure enough to demand Cumming's sacking?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136

    Lockdown is over. People have - quite rightly - bent the rules. Time to be sensible and adopt a risk segmentation approach.

    The problem is, nobody has thought through the easing of lockdown and the precautions that should already be in place. So far all we have been given are some dates, and little else. It is a really poor show.

    Before you know it we will be back to R over one and a second spike. Chaos!
    People are losing their fear of it though. It’s statistically safe for fit under 50s.
    Are they? - some people I know are, other people are more paranoid now then they were a month ago.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136

    eek said:

    eek said:

    isam said:

    The detailed reasons why the SPI-B member is so angry need noting:

    https://twitter.com/reicherstephen/status/1264610669237862407?s=21

    He should have said "To show he is not above the law, Dom will be treated the same as any member of the public who broke the lockdown - £30 fine, doubled if not paid within a fortnight"
    Well quite. All the people yowling 'One rule for them!!' and demanding Cummings' dismissal might go a bit quiet and pale if all their lockdown etiquette was going to be assessed and they'd lose their main source of income if found wanting. They're not demanding he be treated the same, they're demanding he be treated worse. Very odd.
    Nope, those who set the rules (as Cummings did) really should be making sure they more than meet those rules otherwise they risk being caught out.

    Setting the rules and then wilfully and gleefully ignoring them isn't going to do you any favours.

    And in this case people will remember and it will live on. The labour party will be able to tug at this string for years to come and for a lot of people who have lost relatives it will be a heartfelt string.
    So that's not demanding the same rules for everyone is it?
    The rules are the same - but most people who set them, are sensible and bright enough to ensure they don't get close to breaking them or put in a position where it looks like they might have broken them.

    Oh you can be Boris and his cronies and create a set of rules and then completely ignore them because "those rules are for the little people"
    So the rules are the same but the penalties for breaking them are not the same.
    Nope the penalties are potentially the same - bringing your employer into disrupt could cost you your job.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Chris said:

    Ave_it said:

    Chris said:

    Ave_it said:

    Social distancing: down to 1m now please. In line with WHO requirements. Gives pubs restaurants cafés and other hospitality a chance.

    Then get rid of it entirely as soon as possible once we are in Level 2. People need to be given the choice to make their own risk assessment.

    You're doing a very good job of illustrating that people aren't capable of it.
    Are
    Chris said:

    Ave_it said:

    Social distancing: down to 1m now please. In line with WHO requirements. Gives pubs restaurants cafés and other hospitality a chance.

    Then get rid of it entirely as soon as possible once we are in Level 2. People need to be given the choice to make their own risk assessment.

    You're doing a very good job of illustrating that people aren't capable of it.
    Are you one of those who want to stay inside your house on furlough forever?
    You're talking about abandoning the 2m distance. In fact, you want to abandon social distancing altogether.

    If we do that and go completely back to normal, what do you suppose is there to prevent the virus from spreading through 60% of the population? And how many people do you think would die if that happened?
    As I said earlier I would only go to no social distancing when we are at Level 2 ie no significant virus presence in the population. So no material risk.

    Probably not seeing you in a pub soon
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492

    Foxy said:

    Definitely agree we need to get back to normal . A huge overreaction the last few weeks . We know the mortality rate is well under 1% and that kids especially are not in any real danger . If people get indignant by Cummings and disobey lockdown rules then so much the better .

    So how do you come up with that bollocks of 'well under 1%'? With 60,000 plus deaths are you claiming over 10% of us have had it?
    err yeah? Antibody testing seems to suggest that .Also not sure where 60K deaths comes from?
    Excess death figure.
    Yes but some of those deaths are caused becasue of the lockdown not covid -19
    So you are ignoring the data because it doesn't back up your claim.
    No I am explaining it? Excess deaths do not equal covid-19 deaths . They will include a fair few who dies because they could not access (or were scared to ) access hospitals
    Why do you think it is that the excess deaths are heavily concentrated in areas with most covid, yet very low in low covid areas under same lockdown?
    If thats the case it could be that hospitals are clamming up more in those areas?
    But nowhere have hospitals truly collapsed. It is not just a UK phenomenon. Everywhere in the world the excess deaths are in covid hot spots.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,662

    Scott_xP said:
    Utterly stupid thing to do by Ms Patel.
    Though France looks a bit petty as well.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,138
    Foxy said:

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    Maggie Thatcher?
    Looking at the polls, the Tories recorded a lead on 23 May 1989 and then went behind until she went.

    The Eastbourne by-election was perhaps more important.

    (and Europe!)
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Give me a break. He's our MP and he's sh1t doing that.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    Given that nobody seems to have been infected in Islington in the last week (I know Hampstead Heath is in Camden) I suspect fear has evaporated from those who are 'out and about'.

    I like your second paragraph, it chimes with what Cummings's character might well be.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492
    Scott_xP said:
    Good luck applying Quarantine now my Priti!

    The relaxation steps of lockdown, with Track, Trace and Isolate require more discipline than the simple lockdown. The quickest way for it to fail is for people to ignore Quarantine. Pretty much nailed on now.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Good luck applying Quarantine now my Priti!

    The relaxation steps of lockdown, with Track, Trace and Isolate require more discipline than the simple lockdown. The quickest way for it to fail is for people to ignore Quarantine. Pretty much nailed on now.
    Question track and trace requires the app for it to work. Who after tonight's fiasco is going to download and install it?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Scott_xP said:
    Says a clergyman, LOL. How long did the Church of England cover up Bishop Ball?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    Thanks CycleFree.

    Personally I prefer to err on the side of giving people as much freedom as possible albeit with providing them with as much information as possible to make their decisions upon.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    eadric said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Dom is going to have to move his family to Durham for their own safety.
    He'll resign. No one can withstand that kind of ugly public hounding, for long. It's also becoming a clear and present danger to his family
    If he was sensible he wouldn't have spent all day in No 10 trying to justify his existence.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837
    Foxy said:



    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.

    Maggie Thatcher?
    Theresa May, The Conservatives were haemorrhaging support to TBP before she resigned.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited May 2020
    Worth noting that all the stuff about 2 metres etc is nowhere in the legislation or the rules.

    It is simply guidance.

    And we’ve seen today what the government thinks of that.

    So, frankly, if I were reopening a business I would do whatever was in the best interests of my business, my staff and customers. Those would be my business “instincts”. I certainly wouldn’t be following “guidance” which would destroy my business. Nor would I follow the guidance just because the government issued it.

    Ditto for personal decisions.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    The problem with social distancing is that the public seem unable to deal in principles, only absolutes.

    The aim is that population-averaged and time-averaged everyone stands a bit further away from each other or simply leaves the house less to not be in any contact with anyone else. The idea isn't that absolutely noone ever goes within anyone else's 2m box ever and it would be a failure if that did happen because (a) it's an entirely arbitrary distance (b) it's entirely impractical over the medium to long term and (c) it's entirely unenforceable.

    By all means it is sensible to try and get folk to put a bit more distance between themselves but it's not a long term solution and people who get panicky because someone is 1.9m away from them not 2m are rather missing the point.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    Given that nobody seems to have been infected in Islington in the last week (I know Hampstead Heath is in Camden) I suspect fear has evaporated from those who are 'out and about'.

    I like your second paragraph, it chimes with what Cummings's character might well be.
    Hampstead Heath is probably busier now than it has ever been. Plenty of mass picnics and people taking advantage of the weather. Part of it is probably because it is so hard to police. From personal experience of running around it, I would say the vast majority of the people in groups are in their 20s with a few families interspersed. Cannot blame them - I suspect many are stuck in cramped flats which are not particularly pleasant on a hot day.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,988
    Bozo being bashed by bishops.

    Which is not the same as when he was in self isolation.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,138
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.

    Maggie Thatcher?
    Theresa May, The Conservatives were haemorrhaging support to TBP before she resigned.

    Again, an actual election (Euros) probably contributed more than the polls.

    But I don't think a lack of an election means Johnson is safe.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Foxy said:

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    Maggie Thatcher?
    Maggie's Tories were polling below Labour for 18 months (early 1989 - late 1990) before she resigned, so no.

    Like I say, an addiction to short-term thinking has turned the punditry's capacity to put political events into perspective to mush.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    Maggie Thatcher?
    Thatcher went after "a few bad polls" did she? I really don't think so. I think it took a fair bit more than "a few bad polls" to dislodge her.

    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls in 1979
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls in 1980
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls in 1981
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls early 1982
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in many polls in 1984
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in most polls in 1985
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in most polls in 1986

    Thatcher was able to survive "a few bad polls"
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Good luck applying Quarantine now my Priti!

    The relaxation steps of lockdown, with Track, Trace and Isolate require more discipline than the simple lockdown. The quickest way for it to fail is for people to ignore Quarantine. Pretty much nailed on now.
    Quarantine enforcement was always going to have to be done by employers.

    I doubt that the government ever intended to police it themselves.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Would he have thrown the book at grooming gangs or would that have been too far for him?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    I don't think Boris is firing on all cylinders - "Doesn't he look tired"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    I’m wary of falling into this trap. Everything is unprecedented until it actually happens. Inevitably you will highlight the many differences - but there are similarities in the historical analogue that springs to my mind. Not really polling in this example, but one 20th Century PM, also a former Foreign Secretary, was forced out when clearly unwell and was making significant political miscalculations that alienated his backbenchers and cabinet. If you want a historical precedent for BoJo then I would look to Anthony Eden. His majority was 60 when he was shown the door.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,806
    MrEd said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    Given that nobody seems to have been infected in Islington in the last week (I know Hampstead Heath is in Camden) I suspect fear has evaporated from those who are 'out and about'.

    I like your second paragraph, it chimes with what Cummings's character might well be.
    Hampstead Heath is probably busier now than it has ever been. Plenty of mass picnics and people taking advantage of the weather. Part of it is probably because it is so hard to police. From personal experience of running around it, I would say the vast majority of the people in groups are in their 20s with a few families interspersed. Cannot blame them - I suspect many are stuck in cramped flats which are not particularly pleasant on a hot day.
    and tbh if nobody is being infected in Hampstead despite these gatherings it probably means herd immunity has been reached in those areas. Again shows the mortality rate is not that high overall.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492

    The problem with social distancing is that the public seem unable to deal in principles, only absolutes.

    The aim is that population-averaged and time-averaged everyone stands a bit further away from each other or simply leaves the house less to not be in any contact with anyone else. The idea isn't that absolutely noone ever goes within anyone else's 2m box ever and it would be a failure if that did happen because (a) it's an entirely arbitrary distance (b) it's entirely impractical over the medium to long term and (c) it's entirely unenforceable.

    By all means it is sensible to try and get folk to put a bit more distance between themselves but it's not a long term solution and people who get panicky because someone is 1.9m away from them not 2m are rather missing the point.

    In practice 2M is usually 1.5M or less, by my observations.

    I don't think it clear yet how much is spread by aerosol, by droplet or by contaminated surfaces.

    We do see that when one patient in a six bed bay tests positive, within a week the others often do, even though the index patient is immediately shifted to another ward or sideroom.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,095
    eadric said:

    Jonathan said:

    There is a lot of frustration, fear and anger about the CV lockdown. This goes far beyond Cummings. Cummings is a catalyst.

    Boris has unwittingly positioned his government to be the recipient of all of that.

    The question is why. What was worse than that?

    Indeed. I guess that maybe Cummings' sudden departure would expose Boris fatally, in some way. But how?
    Cummings is Brexit.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    Because once the entire media and Opposition establishment - and even some on your own side - have jumped up and down and screamed 'You Must! You Must! YOU MUST!' and you tell them to get stuffed, then the spell has been broken and you can weather just about anything after that.

    That is the political prize at the heart of all this.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,267
    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    WTF has this got to do with Remainers? Brexit is complete, we are one big happy Brexit family now
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    The cabinet and the shadow cabinet, are going to have to account for all their movements over the past few weeks to their superiors. The story has got to go somewhere.

    What makes people angry in the Cummings case is not just the breaking of lockdown it was failing to quarantine with the virus. The rules were pretty clear - if someone has the virus they self-isolate with their family. Ignoring that on the grounds that a couple in their circumstance had to travel to Durham in order to get child care is just taking the piss to be honest. It's taking us all for mugs.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,321
    Just re-reading BJ's press conference statement, and it's even worse than I'd noticed at the time.

    Among many gems, he said: Dominic Cummings and I have concluded that in travelling to find the right kind of childcare, at the moment when both he and his wife were about to be incapacitated by coronavirus.... Cummings is indeed a super-forecaster.

    So, back in late March, anybody could have said "I'm travelling because I'm about to be incapacitated by coronavirus"; pretty easy to ignore lockdown then.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,887
    Scott_xP said:
    I was thinking that myself. If it was legal* it would be a piece of piss to pull up the data about where the phones belonging to Dom and his wife have been, as well as looking at all their payment receipts, and anywhere their car has passed an ANPR camera. It's extremely difficult to avoid leaving an eletronic trail.

    * I've no idea if checking out his story to the Cabinet Office would qualify.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136
    eadric said:

    eek said:

    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    I don't think Boris is firing on all cylinders - "Doesn't he look tired"
    Yep. I stand by my wild prediction Boris will retire "on health grounds". Probably in 2021?
    We have left the EU - January 2021 is going to be a nightmare, I suspect it will be earlier than that.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,519
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    Maggie Thatcher?
    Looking at the polls, the Tories recorded a lead on 23 May 1989 and then went behind until she went.

    The Eastbourne by-election was perhaps more important.

    (and Europe!)
    1989 was a rather odd year for UK elections.

    The May local elections were regarded as a good performance for the Conservatives as they gained seats and councils:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    but the June 1989 Euro elections were regarded as a big defeat as they lost lots of seats to Labour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom

    but the Labour lead was actually higher in May than in June - the difference being the effect of the electoral cycle.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    Given that nobody seems to have been infected in Islington in the last week (I know Hampstead Heath is in Camden) I suspect fear has evaporated from those who are 'out and about'.

    I like your second paragraph, it chimes with what Cummings's character might well be.
    Hampstead Heath is probably busier now than it has ever been. Plenty of mass picnics and people taking advantage of the weather. Part of it is probably because it is so hard to police. From personal experience of running around it, I would say the vast majority of the people in groups are in their 20s with a few families interspersed. Cannot blame them - I suspect many are stuck in cramped flats which are not particularly pleasant on a hot day.
    and tbh if nobody is being infected in Hampstead despite these gatherings it probably means herd immunity has been reached in those areas. Again shows the mortality rate is not that high overall.
    Yes, I suspect that is right. The aftermath is going to be horrible - there are a lot of people about to be made unemployed once the furloughing measures end (in fact, the redundancies are already happening) and there will be very few jobs to go to. It will be appalling.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    eadric said:

    eek said:

    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    I don't think Boris is firing on all cylinders - "Doesn't he look tired"
    Yep. I stand by my wild prediction Boris will retire "on health grounds". Probably in 2021?
    Well, there's a bloody good chance he wont be outside CCHQ admitting defeat to Starmer. He will go before then.
  • Foxy said:

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    Maggie Thatcher?
    Thatcher went after "a few bad polls" did she? I really don't think so. I think it took a fair bit more than "a few bad polls" to dislodge her.

    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls in 1979
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls in 1980
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls in 1981
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in the polls early 1982
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in many polls in 1984
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in most polls in 1985
    Kind of ignores the fact that Thatcher was behind in most polls in 1986

    Thatcher was able to survive "a few bad polls"
    The thing she couldn't survive was the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that she'd passed the tipping point.

    "Holed below the waterline" is hard to define but, arguably, you know it when you see it and polls are merely a symptom.

    I think we're a little way from that, although this is all hugely damaging in a more than short term way for Johnson.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,136

    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    Because once the entire media and Opposition establishment - and even some on your own side - have jumped up and down and screamed 'You Must! You Must! YOU MUST!' and you tell them to get stuffed, then the spell has been broken and you can weather just about anything after that.

    That is the political prize at the heart of all this.
    Well you may be able to weather everything but in reality people will just start to ignore you.

    Boris was always a clown you laughed with, today he became a clown you laugh at.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034
    Just checked.. all my runs over lockdown would have got me to Barnard castle and back.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,849
    MrEd said:

    Would he have thrown the book at grooming gangs or would that have been too far for him?
    Didn't you get the memo? The Tories managed to screw that line of attack up as well.

    "Minister Nadine Dorries criticised for tweeting ‘doctored video from far-right account’ attacking Keir Starmer"

    https://tinyurl.com/ybj6xfcy
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MrEd said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Says a clergyman, LOL. How long did the Church of England cover up Bishop Ball?
    So no one can comment on an issue with credibility unless the organisation they work for has never done anything wrong?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,249
    DougSeal said:

    Johnson has misjudged the public mood and anger pretty badly IMO.

    There is a chance Johnson now becomes the issue.

    This scenario could not have played out any better for SKS

    Cummings has put the PM right in the firing line, and he has readily tried to be human shield.

    Next Tory MPs to be inundated with angry e mails from Constituents.

    I reckon a few polls (if they did show the Tories trailing) which they probably won't

    Tory MPs would chuck Boris very Quickly
    Give me one example in all of British history when a Prime Minister was chucked after a few bad polls. I'll wait.
    I’m wary of falling into this trap. Everything is unprecedented until it actually happens. Inevitably you will highlight the many differences - but there are similarities in the historical analogue that springs to my mind. Not really polling in this example, but one 20th Century PM, also a former Foreign Secretary, was forced out when clearly unwell and was making significant political miscalculations that alienated his backbenchers and cabinet. If you want a historical precedent for BoJo then I would look to Anthony Eden. His majority was 60 when he was shown the door.
    Another Etonian too I believe. Told from early on that they’re born to rule & that iron self belief takes some of them to the top, where it turns out that they’re grossly unsuited to the role. Eton has a lot to answer for.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,806
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    Given that nobody seems to have been infected in Islington in the last week (I know Hampstead Heath is in Camden) I suspect fear has evaporated from those who are 'out and about'.

    I like your second paragraph, it chimes with what Cummings's character might well be.
    Hampstead Heath is probably busier now than it has ever been. Plenty of mass picnics and people taking advantage of the weather. Part of it is probably because it is so hard to police. From personal experience of running around it, I would say the vast majority of the people in groups are in their 20s with a few families interspersed. Cannot blame them - I suspect many are stuck in cramped flats which are not particularly pleasant on a hot day.
    and tbh if nobody is being infected in Hampstead despite these gatherings it probably means herd immunity has been reached in those areas. Again shows the mortality rate is not that high overall.
    Yes, I suspect that is right. The aftermath is going to be horrible - there are a lot of people about to be made unemployed once the furloughing measures end (in fact, the redundancies are already happening) and there will be very few jobs to go to. It will be appalling.
    Fully agree - not just economic damage though also social damage especially in education and loss of focus , opportunity and anticipation in the young
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,672
    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    I suspect Boris and Dom have got carried away with the 'This is all about Brexit' thing. To them, saying 'Stuff you all' and exposing the 'Liberal Elite' as impotent is a genuine thrill and a badge of virility. I wouldn't be surprised if Dom didn't leak the details of his Durham trip himself. He seems completely unperturbed. If anything he's glorying in the infamy and being the centre of attention again.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,988
    I'm living on the edge this evening. Hot milk with a spoonful of malt extract added.

    It's like eating malted milk biscuits. Except without the biscuits.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited May 2020
    eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    It's a good question. I speculate Cummings didn't allow Johnson to do that. I get the impression (a) Cummings doesn't think he did anything wrong and (b) he thinks, fuck you all. So he tells Johnson, you keep me on and say how wonderful I am, or I'll walk and bring your adminstration down, Johnson, weak man as he is, said fine. Pure speculation, but both have acted like this this before
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,119
    eadric said:

    Jonathan said:

    There is a lot of frustration, fear and anger about the CV lockdown. This goes far beyond Cummings. Cummings is a catalyst.

    Boris has unwittingly positioned his government to be the recipient of all of that.

    The question is why. What was worse than that?

    Indeed. I guess that maybe Cummings' sudden departure would expose Boris fatally, in some way. But how?
    Other possibility- he doesn't realise quite how perilous his situation is.

    Partly because Boris is Boris, and one of his loveable features (and I mean this sincerely, despite really not being a fan) is the ability to move on from disaster to further triumphs. Up to now, that's worked for him. So why should he worry?

    Less lovable is his genius for postmodern politics. All effective politicians have been able to mould reality to match what they say, but BoJo really is the zen master of it. If he says something costs £350million, it really costs that much. If he says his new Brexit deal isn't Mrs May's terrible deal (only a bit worse), it's true. If he says that what Dom did is fine, it's fine. Isn't it?

    Finally, how much is he suffering from Lockdown Bunker Fever? He can't be getting the inputs to tell him how fed up *everyone* is (even those of us who think it would be nuts to go back to normal just yet) and how personally sleazy Dom's actions look here. Because nothing in Downing Street's response speaks to the single parent in the 8th floor flat- if anything, it makes it worse.
  • eadric said:

    Just back from a pleasant walk on Hampstead Heath. Not a lot of evidence of social distancing. Quite a bit of evidence of 'don't give a shit'. It's been a few weeks since I was in London so maybe things have been a lot looser down here than in Gloucestershire where I live now, but it may just be the Cummings fiasco is already having an impact.

    I should confess that I find his account implausible. It seems to me much more likely that when his wife got sick he didn't fancy looking after her and the little one on his own so found a more congenial solution involving his parents.

    Johnson performance this afternoon was abject. He had the chance to sack DC or at least explain why he didn't. He did neither. The airy waffle about 'reasonable parent' told us nothing and will have grated like hell with those who have ever experienced similar dilemmas.

    The question is: cui bono?

    What does Boris gain from expending so much political capital on a clearly erring aide. Why not do what I suggested at the start of this: let Dom go now, and rehire him quietly in the dog days of August, in a "different role".

    That's the clever route. Labour and Remainers would squeal but the political damage would be minimal

    Something doesn't add up
    I suspect Boris and Dom have got carried away with the 'This is all about Brexit' thing. To them, saying 'Stuff you all' and exposing the 'Liberal Elite' as impotent is a genuine thrill and a badge of virility. I wouldn't be surprised if Dom didn't leak the details of his Durham trip himself. He seems completely unperturbed. If anything he's glorying in the infamy and being the centre of attention again.
    Certainly. I don't think anyone would seriously doubt he's had at least a semi on at all times since this story broke.
This discussion has been closed.