politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The positive thing for Starmer about LAB’s polling position is

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

eadric said:

WHAT is going on in France?

https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1246137465796263937?s=21

2nd day in a row?

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

eadric said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?

RobD said:

eadric said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?

I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?

eadric said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

Look at it logically. France, a very wealthy, healthy country (with much less pollution than China), is on a fierce lockdown. A la Wuhan.

Yet France has about TWICE as many deaths as China with about 5% of the population of China.

The Chinese data cannot be trusted. It is not possible that their figures are true. This is maths. It doesn’t require any further evidence.

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

eadric said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?

I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?

Don't give me that bullshit.

You're the one making a claim that the figures are wrong.

What's your evidence?

As I have not personally been there to inspect what is going on, I don't have any first hand evidence.

WhisperingOracle said:

Nigelb said:

‘It's a sh-- sandwich': Republicans rage as Florida becomes a nightmare for Trump
https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2020/04/03/its-a-sh-sandwich-republicans-rage-as-florida-becomes-a-nightmare-for-trump-1271172

Shoe... shop...shad ?

Joking apart, it is an appalling story. A new unemployment system, designed at great cost, deliberately, to make it harder to register:
...“It’s a sh-- sandwich, and it was designed that way by Scott,” said one DeSantis advisor. “It wasn’t about saving money. It was about making it harder for people to get benefits or keep benefits so that the unemployment numbers were low to give the governor something to brag about.”

Republican Party of Florida chairman Joe Gruters was more succinct: “$77 million? Someone should go to jail over that.”

With hundreds of thousands of Floridians out of work, the state’s overwhelmed system is making it nearly impossible for many people to even get in line for benefits.

After a record number of claims were reported Thursday, DeSantis said the state would resort to paper applications, build a mobile app to handle the flood of traffic and deploy hundreds, even thousands, of state workers to provide stopgap help.

Congress last week delivered relief in the form of a $2 trillion stimulus package that directs cash to the unemployed. But to get that money into the pockets of Floridians, the state will have to duct-tape the rickety web-based unemployment system to deliver it....

These are potentially epochal changes in finally sweeping away neo-Victorianism in welfare in Britain and the US. This will be the first time that many will be seeing how the administrative systems and organisation of welfare benefits, in particular of standard unemployment benefits, are really set up in Britain and America since the 1990s, with the American case being even more extreme.

Chris said:

johnoundle said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The Chinese government already has form with cover ups,the first case of SARS was in November 2002 but they failed to inform the WTO until February 2003.

Is that it?

MaxPB said:

tlg86 said:

Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.

No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

tlg86 said:

MaxPB said:

tlg86 said:

Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.

No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.

Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.

I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.

RobD said:

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

About as effective as weapons inspectors, I would have thought!

Foxy said:

RobD said:

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

About as effective as weapons inspectors, I would have thought!

Remind me how many weapons of mass destruction they missed.

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

Charles said:

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

Do you think it is appropriate that the WHO refused to assist Taiwan when they asked for help? Or that it refused to take a call from Taiwan when they offered to share their learnings about the disease?

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/KellyIpsosMORI/status/1246146410451476482

eadric said:

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

FFS. Would that be the same WHO interviewed here?

https://twitter.com/hkworldcity/status/1243865641448169474?s=21

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

Foxy said:

Monkeys said:

We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.

Has anyone here ever denied the Tiananmen Square massacre?

eadric said:

Benpointer said:

This is good news:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/nightingale-emergency-coronavirus-hospital-london

"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."

That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.

It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.

Foxy said:

Monkeys said:

We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.

Has anyone here ever denied the Tiananmen Square massacre?

bigjohnowls said:

Update from our MP re local hospital

https://www.tobyperkins.org.uk/2020/04/03/recent-update-from-chesterfield-royal-hospital/

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

MaxPB said:

tlg86 said:

Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.

No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.

Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.

I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.

I may have missed something , but who is arguing that what is happening in the free world is not actually quite bad? I certainly am not!

But you think the Chinese government somehow stopped it spreading through the rest of China whilst it's spread through the rest of the world.

williamglenn said:

Charles said:

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

Do you think it is appropriate that the WHO refused to assist Taiwan when they asked for help? Or that it refused to take a call from Taiwan when they offered to share their learnings about the disease?

Disciplinary action has been taken... against the reporter who tried to question the WHO about Taiwan.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/hong-kong-official-reprimands-tv-station-over-who-interview-that-mentioned-taiwan

Foxy said:

eadric said:

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Chris said:

RobD said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

egg said:

OldKingCole said:

rottenborough said:

RobD said:

From Guido's piece on this...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

It is just a fire on the roof comrade.

I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....

Black Death strikes again.

Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.

Does anyone believe the China death figures

Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?

There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.

Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?

Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.

I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yeah, that was discussed in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html

Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."

But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.

Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?

So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.

No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.

When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".

So what is your evidence really?

The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.

Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.

But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.

That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.

Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?

Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.

No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.

OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.

Come on.

The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?

But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.

Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.

And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?

FFS. Would that be the same WHO interviewed here?

https://twitter.com/hkworldcity/status/1243865641448169474?s=21

Taiwan is not recognised as a country by international bodies. That is a political issue, not a medical one

eadric said:

NickPalmer said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.

The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..

What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..

Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie

Foxy said:

Monkeys said:

We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.

Has anyone here ever denied the Tiananmen Square massacre?

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Monkeys said:

We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.

Has anyone here ever denied the Tiananmen Square massacre?

That's when China used its own tanks to machine gun and crush its own students under tank tracks and then used hoses to hose down the remains into gutters and drains to clean up and hide all the evidence.

That's the sort of regime you're putting ahead of the British Government.

Casino_Royale said:

NickPalmer said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.

The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..

What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..

I bet the WHO turn out (eventually) to have as much integrity as FIFA.

ABZ said:

@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.

There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/KellyIpsosMORI/status/1246146410451476482

Still a partisan divide. Perhaps Labour voters don't like listening to Tory PMs?

Foxy said:

ABZ said:

@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.

There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.

I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.

Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.

Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.

With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.

Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.

* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.

Casino_Royale said:

NickPalmer said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.

The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..

What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..

I bet the WHO turn out (eventually) to have as much integrity as FIFA.

Monkeys said:

We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.

TGOHF666 said:

https://twitter.com/kellyipsosmori/status/1246146410451476482?s=21

eadric said:

nichomar said:

eadric said:

NickPalmer said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.

The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..

What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..

Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie

I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help

I was joking

Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious

Luckyguy1983 said:

eadric said:

nichomar said:

eadric said:

NickPalmer said:

kle4 said:

The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.

I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.

The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..

What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..

Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie

I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help

I was joking

Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious

Nick does think that on balance it would be preferable to live in the PRC than in present day America. I think a lot of left wing people think left wng politics would work if it wasn't for 'those bloody people' holdings things back - reactionaries, capitalists, the religious. So it's not surprising that they have a lingering sympathy for hard-line regimes of their own stripe. To be fair, the same would be true of right-wingers and right-wing dictatorships.

alterego said:

rcs1000 said:

I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...

...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.

Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.

(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)

Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.

(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)

The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.

But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.

However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.

You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?