The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie
I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help
I was joking
Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious
Nick does think that on balance it would be preferable to live in the PRC than in present day America. I think a lot of left wing people think left wng politics would work if it wasn't for 'those bloody people' holdings things back - reactionaries, capitalists, the religious. So it's not surprising that they have a lingering sympathy for hard-line regimes of their own stripe. To be fair, the same would be true of right-wingers and right-wing dictatorships.
Nick would have disliked Hitler 'cos of his halitosis.
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
Thanks so much Foxy! That sounds vaguely encouraging about capacity in Leicester / Leics. I think there is good reason to think the worst will be next weekend. Re testing, have any of the Samba II diagnostic machines made their way to you? That would solve a lot of immediate quick re-testing issues, albeit they are clearly not the solution for mass testing.
I am not in the lab, so do not know.
A second doctor in my department was confirmed positive today. Not a young man either.
I struggle to recall a time when there was such an enormous gap between what the media thinks the story is and what the public actually think. Brexit was consensus and harmony central by comparison.
arguably the week before the elections in 2015 and 2019.
On that note, surely the media had some idea what was brewing? I watched the Novara media 'team' when the result was announced - surely these bright young things of politics must have had a clue what was about to happen? Surely?
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
Thanks so much Foxy! That sounds vaguely encouraging about capacity in Leicester / Leics. I think there is good reason to think the worst will be next weekend. Re testing, have any of the Samba II diagnostic machines made their way to you? That would solve a lot of immediate quick re-testing issues, albeit they are clearly not the solution for mass testing.
I am not in the lab, so do not know.
A second doctor in my department was confirmed positive today. Not a young man either.
Oh no. I lost a colleague a couple of days ago, which is deeply distressing.
But I do have hope, for the country, that we might just cope in this first wave and then be much more prepared for wave two.
I struggle to recall a time when there was such an enormous gap between what the media thinks the story is and what the public actually think. Brexit was consensus and harmony central by comparison.
arguably the week before the elections in 2015 and 2019.
On that note, surely the media had some idea what was brewing? I watched the Novara media 'team' when the result was announced - surely these bright young things of politics must have had a clue what was about to happen? Surely?
Novara had not a tenth of the political acumen on here.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
Very reasonably expressed. Some members of the herd are immune to reasonableness unfortunately.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer than in my quite leafy bit of Yorkshire. Some are still in quarantine.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
£1m per ICU bed per year?! That's a fact that needs a little more publicity - I certainly had no idea it was that high.
That is the ballpark figure that I know from planning meetings. Most of the cost, as in everything NHS, is staffing related, though capital and infrastructure costs are high too. We have level 3 ICU at all 3 Leicester hospitals, and there are endless circular meetings to try to get it down to 2 sites for cost and staffing reasons. Not as straightforward as it sounds, as quite a lot of activity has to move if we move an ICU.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Jezza Corbyn ?
I don't think even he would contemplate China. Venezuela, yes but not China.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
Very reasonably expressed. Some members of the herd are immune to reasonableness unfortunately.
These are potentially epochal changes in finally sweeping away neo-Victorianism in welfare in Britain and the US. This will be the first time that many will be seeing how the administrative systems and organisation of welfare benefits, in particular of standard unemployment benefits, are really set up in Britain and America since the 1990s, with the American case being even more extreme.
That is really not the case here even if it might be in the USA. Along with France, Germany, Ireland, the Nordic countries and Australia and New Zealand and Cuba, the UK is one of the few countries in the world which provides non contributory unemployment benefits
This is a good thing, isn´t it, Mr HY?
Are you sure you still believe in the Conservative Party?
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Jezza Corbyn ?
I don't think even he would contemplate China. Venezuela, yes but not China.
That can't be right - we get told constantly on here and on Sky and by Peston that the whole thing has been a shambolic botch job by the worst government ever. Who to believe - left-wing hacks here and on twitter or 98% of the public?
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Jezza Corbyn ?
I don't think even he would contemplate China. Venezuela, yes but not China.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Well, the Conservative government did agree Hinkley point and Huawei 5g, and there was quite a trade outreach there, for example Ms Truss was keen on pork markets. It was all reported in the papers and never denied.
I struggle to recall a time when there was such an enormous gap between what the media thinks the story is and what the public actually think. Brexit was consensus and harmony central by comparison.
arguably the week before the elections in 2015 and 2019.
On that note, surely the media had some idea what was brewing? I watched the Novara media 'team' when the result was announced - surely these bright young things of politics must have had a clue what was about to happen? Surely?
Novara had not a tenth of the political acumen on here.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
Very reasonably expressed. Some members of the herd are immune to reasonableness unfortunately.
That wouldn't actually happen as stated - if you merely had "fears" of a second outbreak you would have factored them in to the decision to reopen. So when they say "fears over a possible second wave of infections" they probably mean "a second wave of infections."
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Well, the Conservative government did agree Hinkley point and Huawei 5g, and there was quite a trade outreach there, for example Ms Truss was keen on pork markets. It was all reported in the papers and never denied.
What not treat everyone with bad Covid in the empty Nightingale, and allow routine operations in the locals?
Quite apart from staffing etc, there is a need to keep people with long term conditions in isolation. Having their hip done and catching COVID19 is not a great deal.
You are right though, vastly expanding bed numbers would help in more normal times. When the all clear gets sounded, we may need the Nightingales to continue for some time as catch up capacity.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
£1m per ICU bed per year?! That's a fact that needs a little more publicity - I certainly had no idea it was that high.
That is the ballpark figure that I know from planning meetings. Most of the cost, as in everything NHS, is staffing related, though capital and infrastructure costs are high too. We have level 3 ICU at all 3 Leicester hospitals, and there are endless circular meetings to try to get it down to 2 sites for cost and staffing reasons. Not as straightforward as it sounds, as quite a lot of activity has to move if we move an ICU.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
Last time we should ever believe the Chinese govt.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
So it really was a lot of rich, privileged kids entirely representative of the Chinese people.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
When this crisis is over can we get the army to complete Crossrail.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
So it really was a lot of rich, privileged kids entirely representative of the Chinese people.
We're not talking big public school here. Maybe you've missed that China is by far the biggest growth area in student numbers, It's not the elite who are being hived off here to get an education anymore. If you are so anti private education then you are clearly not going to be convinced but these are the children of ordinary middle class people.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Jezza Corbyn ?
I don't think even he would contemplate China. Venezuela, yes but not China.
What happens in the US if you don't have insurance and get Covid-19?
Emergency Rooms (A&E) cannot turn away patients in need of immediate care, even if they have no insurance or money. Once the need for immediate care is over, they can literally be kicked out onto the street, and they will be charged for all the care they received.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
Meaning because home always feels safer than away, or because they objectively believe home is better at handling COVID 19 than the UK is?
That can't be right - we get told constantly on here and on Sky and by Peston that the whole thing has been a shambolic botch job by the worst government ever. Who to believe - left-wing hacks here and on twitter or 98% of the public?
Amazing. The Westminster bubble calls it wrong again.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
Which as you well know proves absolutely nothing other than that the Chinese propaganda is effective.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
So it really was a lot of rich, privileged kids entirely representative of the Chinese people.
We're not talking big public school here. Maybe you've missed that China is by far the biggest growth area in student numbers, It's not the elite who are being hived off here to get an education anymore. If you are so anti private education then you are clearly not going to be convinced but these are the children of ordinary middle class people.
You must work for the Chinese Consulate for Yorkshire
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
Most of us engage in a bit of casual empiricism on here. But let me give you specifics:
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
Sanctimony. Totally irrelevant.
You’ll never understand China with that sort of outdated view that they are still as they were back twenty plus years ago. You argue with the past and you lose. They are masters of the cover up, they are brutal in getting their way but they have also modernised and carry the will of the vast majority of their people. On getting that, you can then attack them from that point.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
That's ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to integrate with China?
Well, the Conservative government did agree Hinkley point and Huawei 5g, and there was quite a trade outreach there, for example Ms Truss was keen on pork markets. It was all reported in the papers and never denied.
Approving Hinkley C nuclear plant while not agreeing to Swansea Bay tidal lagoon was arguably the most stupid thing that Theresa May did in her term as PM. The argument (from the civil servants) was that Swansea was too expensive. Yet the electricity price required for Swansea was cheaper than Hinkley C (£92 v £95). The total subsidy for Hinkley C was £34 billion. Hinkley lasts for 60 years (tops) and then requires £7bn to dismantle it. And then needs replacing for the next 60 years. Presumably with another massive number of billions in subsidy. With another £7bn to dismantle THAT plant. Swansea Lagoon in comparison lasts for 120 years with relatively tiny abandonment costs.
The recently announced 15% cost over-run of £2.7 bn would have built the "too expensive" zero carbon Swansea Bay.
More than twice over.
Boris can still remedy Swansea. That then immediately opens up the development of the Cardiff Lagoon - by the private sector. Almost identical in power output to Hinkley C, it will be the worlds largest renewable power plant. It powers 1.6 million homes - more than there are in Wales. And Cardiff's electricity price is much closer to the price for offshore wind. Which offshore wind still needs replacing every 30-40 years.
The changes people are now seeing in the planet can be continued by having the tides power our country.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
Most of us engage in a bit of casual empiricism on here. But let me give you specifics:
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
Does your third paragraph endorse or contradict the second?
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
Most of us engage in a bit of casual empiricism on here. But let me give you specifics:
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
I can think of other reasons why Chinese people might be deciding to return to China at the moment. They may be making assumptions about how Europeans might view them in the future, (which hopefully aren't correct since it's the Chinese government's fault not ordinary Chinese).
I have a work call on in five minutes. But let me give you my one minute Italy summary.
The numbers continue to look positive. While you'd want them to be coming down more quickly, they are going in the right direction.
Today new cases fell 23% compared to the same day last week. This compares to a 24% drop yesterday. Three of the last four days have seen 20+% drops.
This is despite there having been many more tests. Today's count, for example, was 17% higher than the same day last week.
Total active cases in Italy are now growing at c. 2,500 per day. I would expect that number to go negative by the end of next week. I.e., the number of people who are believed to have CV-19 should be dropping by 12 April.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
Most of us engage in a bit of casual empiricism on here. But let me give you specifics:
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
So, your sister is in education and is related to OGH and you work/ worked at Goldman Sachs and know a Chinese man who has posted something on Facebook. Very apposite.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
When this crisis is over can we get the army to complete Crossrail.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
Most of us engage in a bit of casual empiricism on here. But let me give you specifics:
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
I can think of other reasons why Chinese people might be deciding to return to China at the moment. They may be making assumptions about how Europeans might view them in the future, (which hopefully aren't correct since it's the Chinese government's fault not ordinary Chinese).
Their students might also think they are getting shit value for money from effectively closed universities.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
Meaning because home always feels safer than away, or because they objectively believe home is better at handling COVID 19 than the UK is?
On seeing the UK’s response. They love the UK for many, many things but the attitude of ‘let the people decide’ when It comes to safety changed the atmosphere somewhat. They were the first to get out, then the British families, so that by the time we closed we had barely half left and most of those were the exam students, who felt as though they might need to be there.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
Sanctimony. Totally irrelevant.
You’ll never understand China with that sort of outdated view that they are still as they were back twenty plus years ago. You argue with the past and you lose. They are masters of the cover up, they are brutal in getting their way but they have also modernised and carry the will of the vast majority of their people. On getting that, you can then attack them from that point.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone doubts that fact whether the CIA stuff is true or not. We always feared Trump would kill people by doing something stupid like starting an unnecessary war because someone insulted his spelling and grammar. Turns out instead he is killing thousands of people by doing nothing.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
Sanctimony. Totally irrelevant.
You’ll never understand China with that sort of outdated view that they are still as they were back twenty plus years ago. You argue with the past and you lose. They are masters of the cover up, they are brutal in getting their way but they have also modernised and carry the will of the vast majority of their people. On getting that, you can then attack them from that point.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
You have how many "friends" who think like this? They must be entirely representative of the Chinese people to have any significance at all and to be here at all disqualifies them from that status.
Most of us engage in a bit of casual empiricism on here. But let me give you specifics:
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
I can think of other reasons why Chinese people might be deciding to return to China at the moment. They may be making assumptions about how Europeans might view them in the future, (which hopefully aren't correct since it's the Chinese government's fault not ordinary Chinese).
Their students might also think they are getting shit value for money from effectively closed universities.
Most of the filthy rich students probably faked their entrance grades - who cares we have their cash.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie
I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help
I was joking
Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious
Nick does think that on balance it would be preferable to live in the PRC than in present day America. I think a lot of left wing people think left wng politics would work if it wasn't for 'those bloody people' holdings things back - reactionaries, capitalists, the religious. So it's not surprising that they have a lingering sympathy for hard-line regimes of their own stripe. To be fair, the same would be true of right-wingers and right-wing dictatorships.
I don't think Nick has ever said that, though SeanT was wont to sing the praises of China. The only country that Nick seems to aspire to be like is Denmark, and that is fine by me.
Nick was (and basically still is) a Eurocommunist - he was a member of the communist party over here so not actually correct to claim he wants to be like Denmark, we have far too much entrepreneurialism and a very flexible labour market for his taste
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
So it really was a lot of rich, privileged kids entirely representative of the Chinese people.
We're not talking big public school here. Maybe you've missed that China is by far the biggest growth area in student numbers, It's not the elite who are being hived off here to get an education anymore. If you are so anti private education then you are clearly not going to be convinced but these are the children of ordinary middle class people.
You must work for the Chinese Consulate for Yorkshire
You’ve lost it. Amazing, an open goal and you manage to shoot the ball into the stands. This is why China wins, because of prehistoric attitudes to what modern China is like.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here.
And you of course do. How many students? Presumably they must be privileged to be here so probably someone important's kids?
I already added that up above, about twenty. Yes, pretty well off but here because they don’t really fit into the a Chinese more regimented system, not because of privilege. Business people, not government people.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
Sanctimony. Totally irrelevant.
You’ll never understand China with that sort of outdated view that they are still as they were back twenty plus years ago. You argue with the past and you lose. They are masters of the cover up, they are brutal in getting their way but they have also modernised and carry the will of the vast majority of their people. On getting that, you can then attack them from that point.
More sanctimony.
Someone rattled your cage, hun?
No. I'm quite enjoying myself. I think you've addressed the wrong poster.
"Nightingale emergency coronavirus hospital may not be needed as urgently as expected London’s intensive care units were expected to be overflowing at this point but are only three-quarters full"
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
So it really was a lot of rich, privileged kids entirely representative of the Chinese people.
We're not talking big public school here. Maybe you've missed that China is by far the biggest growth area in student numbers, It's not the elite who are being hived off here to get an education anymore. If you are so anti private education then you are clearly not going to be convinced but these are the children of ordinary middle class people.
You must work for the Chinese Consulate for Yorkshire
You’ve lost it. Amazing, an open goal and you manage to shoot the ball into the stands. This is why China wins, because of prehistoric attitudes to what modern China is like.
China predates history? Not sure about football nor the open goal. What did I miss?
These are potentially epochal changes in finally sweeping away neo-Victorianism in welfare in Britain and the US. This will be the first time that many will be seeing how the administrative systems and organisation of welfare benefits, in particular of standard unemployment benefits, are really set up in Britain and America since the 1990s, with the American case being even more extreme.
That is really not the case here even if it might be in the USA. Along with France, Germany, Ireland, the Nordic countries and Australia and New Zealand and Cuba, the UK is one of the few countries in the world which provides non contributory unemployment benefits
This is a good thing, isn´t it, Mr HY?
Are you sure you still believe in the Conservative Party?
The Conservative Party has kept non contributory unemployment benefits so certainly, I would just like more contributory benefits too
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May, has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
It probably depends on where in the UK - I guess they were in London rather than Hull.
All the Chinese students that we have returned home, as it was seen as safer. Some are still in quarantine.
"All" and they all think the same way and only some are still in quarantine. Another all seeing, all knowing poster.
Yes, I do know, because we put them on the planes. I know of some in quarantine, I suppose it’s possible that that they all are (some have mentioned it, some haven’t).
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
So it really was a lot of rich, privileged kids entirely representative of the Chinese people.
We're not talking big public school here. Maybe you've missed that China is by far the biggest growth area in student numbers, It's not the elite who are being hived off here to get an education anymore. If you are so anti private education then you are clearly not going to be convinced but these are the children of ordinary middle class people.
You must work for the Chinese Consulate for Yorkshire
You’ve lost it. Amazing, an open goal and you manage to shoot the ball into the stands. This is why China wins, because of prehistoric attitudes to what modern China is like.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
Even if we had such a right, we have no power to enact it which makes it a moot point anyway. The US will do whatever Trump wants and is clearly not a reliable ally for anyone, and we have just left the EU. Combined the US & EU might have had some chance of bringing China to heel, divided they have no hope. As for the idea that the UK can do this, well......
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie
I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help
I was joking
Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious
Nick does think that on balance it would be preferable to live in the PRC than in present day America. I think a lot of left wing people think left wng politics would work if it wasn't for 'those bloody people' holdings things back - reactionaries, capitalists, the religious. So it's not surprising that they have a lingering sympathy for hard-line regimes of their own stripe. To be fair, the same would be true of right-wingers and right-wing dictatorships.
I don't think Nick has ever said that, though SeanT was wont to sing the praises of China. The only country that Nick seems to aspire to be like is Denmark, and that is fine by me.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May, has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
I think we might reasonably expect them to learn from the experience as I would like to think most countries would so far as they are able.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
Even if we had such a right, we have no power to enact it which makes it a moot point anyway. The US will do whatever Trump wants and is clearly not a reliable ally for anyone, and we have just left the EU. Combined the US & EU might have had some chance of bringing China to heel, divided they have no hope. As for the idea that the UK can do this, well......
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May, has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
This is simply not true. The advice from the WHO and NERVTAG up until 21st January was that there was no human to human transmission. This is in spite of the fact that Taiwan had warned the WHO 2 weeks earlier and the WHO had ignored them. The Chinese knew this. There is no way they could have not.
Governments act on the advice of their scientific teams. They can do nothing else. If those scientists ae being misled by false data then that is when things go wrong. The Government has made plenty of mistakes but I can't think of a single sane person in this country who would have said, on 19th January, that it was a mistake to follow the follow the advice of the experts in this.
I struggle to recall a time when there was such an enormous gap between what the media thinks the story is and what the public actually think. Brexit was consensus and harmony central by comparison.
I'm getting pissed off with political correspondents asking stupid questions at the daily briefing, when the topics are of a medical or scientific nature. At best it's a waste of time, at worst they are muddying the waters. I don't know why the government is putting up with it, the government should insist that papers and broadcasters use more qualified journalists.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
Even if we had such a right, we have no power to enact it which makes it a moot point anyway. The US will do whatever Trump wants and is clearly not a reliable ally for anyone, and we have just left the EU. Combined the US & EU might have had some chance of bringing China to heel, divided they have no hope. As for the idea that the UK can do this, well......
The UK is not alone.
It has no reliable significant allies. Not just because of Brexit, but mainly because of Trump and America first means no-one has any reliable allies in geo politics any more (including the US).
As examples just today the US is stealing kits from Germany and blocking them from being sold to Canada. France is doing similar within the EU.
HIGNFY are doing social distancing. All the guests are skyping in from their homes.
It's garbage.
I recall from one of the compilation DVDs that they had a guest via video quite some time back, possibly inthe 90s, and Merton was pretty scathing about how it didn't work with people not physically there, though there were video delays with that one.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
It might be worth mentioning in this context the devastation caused to African wildlife by Chinese so-called "medicine".
My disgust of China's behaviour stems from its treatment of animals, its barbaric wet live wildlife markets and its medieval traditional "medicine" which, as you say, is at the root of most of the poaching and illegal butchering of wildlife in Africa and elsewhere.
If that wasn't enough those actions have gone on to cause the worst pandemic in recent history and is bringing the world economy to its knees.
I think people tend to magnify the examples where there has been a relative lack of clarity as representative, when the basic messages have been pretty clear overall, and I maintain the belief that concern at some messages being confused ignores that while that will happen with a few, there are those who might claim confusion even at pretty clear messages because they do not wish to comply.
If Trump was being given that intelligence 2 months ago then it makes his subsequent response to the crisis even more inexcusable than it really is.
The trouble with Trump, as we keeping seeing it again and again, is that it doesn't matter what the professionals say to him, all of their good work can be undone by 5 minutes of Trump watching Fox News. Donald Trump dismisses anything that is bad news for Donald Trump, so that even Dr. Fauci is having to kiss his arse.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
It might be worth mentioning in this context the devastation caused to African wildlife by Chinese so-called "medicine".
My disgust of China's behaviour stems from its treatment of animals, its barbaric wet live wildlife markets and its medieval traditional "medicine" which, as you say, is at the root of most of the poaching and illegal butchering of wildlife in Africa and elsewhere.
If that wasn't enough those actions have gone on to cause the worst pandemic in recent history and is bringing the world economy to its knees.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
It might be worth mentioning in this context the devastation caused to African wildlife by Chinese so-called "medicine".
My disgust of China's behaviour stems from its treatment of animals, its barbaric wet live wildlife markets and its medieval traditional "medicine" which, as you say, is at the root of most of the poaching and illegal butchering of wildlife in Africa and elsewhere.
If that wasn't enough those actions have gone on to cause the worst pandemic in recent history and is bringing the world economy to its knees.
And the Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang Province.
Apart from giving us cheap tat and unhealthy food - what has China done for us in the last 200 years ?
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May, has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
This is simply not true. The advice from the WHO and NERVTAG up until 21st January was that there was no human to human transmission. This is in spite of the fact that Taiwan had warned the WHO 2 weeks earlier and the WHO had ignored them. The Chinese knew this. There is no way they could have not.
Governments act on the advice of their scientific teams. They can do nothing else. If those scientists ae being misled by false data then that is when things go wrong. The Government has made plenty of mistakes but I can't think of a single sane person in this country who would have said, on 19th January, that it was a mistake to follow the follow the advice of the experts in this.
Did the WHO advise that there was categorically no h/h transmission, or did they say that the picture was unclear, that there was no conclusive evidence yet. That's what I remember.
Taiwan always takes a contrarian position to anything China says or does. Difficult to rely exclusively on them, without corroborating evidence.
If that is the case, and no one will quetion the fact that Andrew Neil has it right every single time, where was the massive reaction from the US. And here I mean the response to the pandemic. If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
I don't think anyone denies the latter point. Their (and our) reaction to the crisis has been lamentable.
I think it's a mixed picture.
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned. Their recent reporting, through May has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
Even if we had such a right, we have no power to enact it which makes it a moot point anyway. The US will do whatever Trump wants and is clearly not a reliable ally for anyone, and we have just left the EU. Combined the US & EU might have had some chance of bringing China to heel, divided they have no hope. As for the idea that the UK can do this, well......
Add India, Japan and South Korea to the US, the EU and UK though...
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
It might be worth mentioning in this context the devastation caused to African wildlife by Chinese so-called "medicine".
My disgust of China's behaviour stems from its treatment of animals, its barbaric wet live wildlife markets and its medieval traditional "medicine" which, as you say, is at the root of most of the poaching and illegal butchering of wildlife in Africa and elsewhere.
If that wasn't enough those actions have gone on to cause the worst pandemic in recent history and is bringing the world economy to its knees.
And the Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang Province.
Apart from giving us cheap tat and unhealthy food - what has China done for us in the last 200 years ?
They can’t even invent decent alcohol.
Sold you mountains of finest tea for opium, voluntarily.
Comments
A second doctor in my department was confirmed positive today. Not a young man either.
On that note, surely the media had some idea what was brewing? I watched the Novara media 'team' when the result was announced - surely these bright young things of politics must have had a clue what was about to happen? Surely?
But I do have hope, for the country, that we might just cope in this first wave and then be much more prepared for wave two.
Some members of the herd are immune to reasonableness unfortunately.
I’m not sure some people understand the Chinese mindset, here. They honestly feel safer, they see our current approach as way too soft. I’m talking about circa twenty students here, no more.
Are you sure you still believe in the Conservative Party?
I have been hearing from contacts in PHE that there have been significant problems, so a shoutout for him.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/brexit-deal-latest-china-britain-top-notch-free-trade-european-union-a8508006.html
(Yes that is partly a political comment.)
If it were true what the CIA is saying now, the US has underreacted by several orders of magnitude.
That wouldn't actually happen as stated - if you merely had "fears" of a second outbreak you would have factored them in to the decision to reopen. So when they say "fears over a possible second wave of infections" they probably mean "a second wave of infections."
You are right though, vastly expanding bed numbers would help in more normal times. When the all clear gets sounded, we may need the Nightingales to continue for some time as catch up capacity.
I should also say that their attitude is no different to those from students from Singapore or Hong Kong. They feel safer at home. Why wouldn't they?
and edit!
When this crisis is over can we get the army to complete Crossrail.
It's garbage.
My sister (OGH's daughter) is at an educational instution with many Chinese students. They have almost entirely gone home because they regard China as safer.
One of my former Goldman colleagues now quite senior at the Asia Development Bank. He and his family live their and have been pretty open on Facebook about conditions there - both before, during and after lockdowbn. He's not commenting in an official capacity, but I see no reason why he'd lie.
The recently announced 15% cost over-run of £2.7 bn would have built the "too expensive" zero carbon Swansea Bay.
More than twice over.
Boris can still remedy Swansea. That then immediately opens up the development of the Cardiff Lagoon - by the private sector. Almost identical in power output to Hinkley C, it will be the worlds largest renewable power plant. It powers 1.6 million homes - more than there are in Wales. And Cardiff's electricity price is much closer to the price for offshore wind. Which offshore wind still needs replacing every 30-40 years.
The changes people are now seeing in the planet can be continued by having the tides power our country.
The numbers continue to look positive. While you'd want them to be coming down more quickly, they are going in the right direction.
Today new cases fell 23% compared to the same day last week. This compares to a 24% drop yesterday. Three of the last four days have seen 20+% drops.
This is despite there having been many more tests. Today's count, for example, was 17% higher than the same day last week.
Total active cases in Italy are now growing at c. 2,500 per day. I would expect that number to go negative by the end of next week. I.e., the number of people who are believed to have CV-19 should be dropping by 12 April.
https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1246118479364796416?s=20
"Nightingale emergency coronavirus hospital may not be needed as urgently as expected
London’s intensive care units were expected to be overflowing at this point but are only three-quarters full"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/nightingale-emergency-coronavirus-hospital-london
Their initial containment efforts were lamentably inefficient, but they learned.
Their recent reporting, through May, has been lamentably implausible, agreed.
But the point of contention was whether their early reporting was, willfully or inadvertantly, insufficient to the point that we could say with justification that "we weren't warned", so that we innocently stumbled into the Coronavirus trap.
And that's nonsense. In January a lot of red lights went on. We just didn't react accordingly, because the threat seemed too enormous to be believable, that's our fault.
We have no right to say "it's China's fault, they must pay for it, they must be brought to heel".
Governments act on the advice of their scientific teams. They can do nothing else. If those scientists ae being misled by false data then that is when things go wrong. The Government has made plenty of mistakes but I can't think of a single sane person in this country who would have said, on 19th January, that it was a mistake to follow the follow the advice of the experts in this.
As examples just today the US is stealing kits from Germany and blocking them from being sold to Canada. France is doing similar within the EU.
If that wasn't enough those actions have gone on to cause the worst pandemic in recent history and is bringing the world economy to its knees.
They can’t even invent decent alcohol.
Taiwan always takes a contrarian position to anything China says or does. Difficult to rely exclusively on them, without corroborating evidence.