Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
Wuhan had a lockdown, and one far more heavily enforced than in any democracy at the end of January, did it not?
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?
I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?
No, it is just wanting to see a bit of evidence rather than unsourced allegations.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?
I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?
Don't give me that bullshit.
You're the one making a claim that the figures are wrong.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
I mean a deliberate misrepresentation.
Well we do know that right at the start local officials (who were subsequently dismissed) tried to cover up wholesale, even to their own government - and basically guaranteed that a pandemic was quite likely.
What we don’t have hard evidence for is whether (certainly possible, if not probable) and to what extent (for now unknowable) the central government has fixed, manipulated or simply faked the figures. (Though we do know they haven’t been counting asymptomatic infected until very recently.)
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
Look at it logically. France, a very wealthy, healthy country (with much less pollution than China), is on a fierce lockdown. A la Wuhan.
Yet France has about TWICE as many deaths as China with about 5% of the population of China.
The Chinese data cannot be trusted. It is not possible that their figures are true. This is maths. It doesn’t require any further evidence.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?
I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?
Don't give me that bullshit.
You're the one making a claim that the figures are wrong.
What's your evidence?
As I have not personally been there to inspect what is going on, I don't have any first hand evidence. What I do have is reports in the media from people who are in a position to know. If it bothers you this much, perhaps I should downgrade my assessment to "deeply suspicious"?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
Look at it logically. France, a very wealthy, healthy country (with much less pollution than China), is on a fierce lockdown. A la Wuhan.
Yet France has about TWICE as many deaths as China with about 5% of the population of China.
The Chinese data cannot be trusted. It is not possible that their figures are true. This is maths. It doesn’t require any further evidence.
That's just laughable.
No there's only one laughable thing happening here. Only 3.6 Roentgen at Chernobyl, it's safe to go in.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?
I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?
Don't give me that bullshit.
You're the one making a claim that the figures are wrong.
What's your evidence?
As I have not personally been there to inspect what is going on, I don't have any first hand evidence.
Don't be ridiculous. I'm not expecting you to have "first hand evidence". Just some kind of proper evidence, other than a newspaper story attributed to anonymous sources in the CIA, who by their own admission "have been unable to glean more accurate numbers through their collection efforts."
It's very easy to sneer, and when there's a whole herd of people sneering, it's very difficult to resist joining in.
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
Joking apart, it is an appalling story. A new unemployment system, designed at great cost, deliberately, to make it harder to register: ...“It’s a sh-- sandwich, and it was designed that way by Scott,” said one DeSantis advisor. “It wasn’t about saving money. It was about making it harder for people to get benefits or keep benefits so that the unemployment numbers were low to give the governor something to brag about.”
Republican Party of Florida chairman Joe Gruters was more succinct: “$77 million? Someone should go to jail over that.”
With hundreds of thousands of Floridians out of work, the state’s overwhelmed system is making it nearly impossible for many people to even get in line for benefits.
After a record number of claims were reported Thursday, DeSantis said the state would resort to paper applications, build a mobile app to handle the flood of traffic and deploy hundreds, even thousands, of state workers to provide stopgap help.
Congress last week delivered relief in the form of a $2 trillion stimulus package that directs cash to the unemployed. But to get that money into the pockets of Floridians, the state will have to duct-tape the rickety web-based unemployment system to deliver it....
These are potentially epochal changes in finally sweeping away neo-Victorianism in welfare in Britain and the US. This will be the first time that many will be seeing how the administrative systems and organisation of welfare benefits, in particular of standard unemployment benefits, are really set up in Britain and America since the 1990s, with the American case being even more extreme.
That is really not the case here even if it might be in the USA.
Along with France, Germany, Ireland, the Nordic countries and Australia and New Zealand and Cuba, the UK is one of the few countries in the world which provides non contributory unemployment benefits
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
It’s really odd. Why this blind support for the data of a nasty regime known to lie about disease?
I wonder if there's any evidence that they are collecting data properly?
Don't give me that bullshit.
You're the one making a claim that the figures are wrong.
What's your evidence?
As I have not personally been there to inspect what is going on, I don't have any first hand evidence.
Don't be ridiculous. I'm not expecting you to have "first hand evidence". Just some kind of proper evidence, other than a newspaper story attributed to anonymous sources in the CIA, who by their own admission "have been unable to glean more accurate numbers through their collection efforts."
It's very easy to sneer, and when there's a whole herd of people sneering, it's very difficult to resist joining in.
Isn't this the same country that tried to silence the doctor who first identified this virus?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The Chinese government already has form with cover ups,the first case of SARS was in November 2002 but they failed to inform the WTO until February 2003.
Is that it?
France has double the amount of deaths as with China but only 5% of their population.
Chairman of the world medical association saying the Chinese figures are nonsense. Numerous media reports including TV5 France saying the same thing.
Dr Li Wenliang the whistle blower ring any bells or the five academics, journalists that tried to expose the truth & have now disappeared?
Are they all wrong and we are to believe the word of a totalitarian government.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
And what’s current death total in U.K. you haven’t a clue. You have to die in a hospital to be counted.
And a week later if you've died outside a hospital the ONS will include you in the stats.
Anyway, the sad and very worrying news coming through is Derek Draper is very ill on a ventilator 😦
Sorry to hear about Derek Draper and hope he pulls through, he used to host a radio show with Peter Hitchens so might finally bring home to Hitchens how for some Covid 19 can be very serious
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.
I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
That’s about as stupid a statement as making claims one way or another about China, I don’t know, but suspect they are massaging the figures but what the hell its got to do with brexit is beyond me.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
On the contrary, I am arguing that a brutal authoritarian Chinese government, with little concern for human rights and without opposition can enforce quarantine and containment with an efficiency that we cannot. That is what they did in the second half of January, after the initial suppression of whistleblowers.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
About as effective as weapons inspectors, I would have thought!
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
On the contrary, I am arguing that a brutal authoritarian Chinese government, with little concern for human rights and without opposition can enforce quarantine and containment with an efficiency that we cannot. That is what they did in the second half of January, after the initial suppression of whistleblowers.
Do you find it plausible that their highest number of deaths recorded on a single day was 150?
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.
I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.
I may have missed something , but who is arguing that what is happening in the free world is not actually quite bad? I certainly am not!
I tend to agree. Annoying as they are, the opposition has a roll to play in holding the government to account. During the war it was more a matter of national survival, so the splits were kept inside the government to present a united front (at least most of the time).
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
About as effective as weapons inspectors, I would have thought!
Remind me how many weapons of mass destruction they missed.
I tend to agree. Annoying as they are, the opposition has a roll to play in holding the government to account. During the war it was more a matter of national survival, so the splits were kept inside the government to present a united front (at least most of the time).
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
About as effective as weapons inspectors, I would have thought!
Remind me how many weapons of mass destruction they missed.
I tend to agree. Annoying as they are, the opposition has a roll to play in holding the government to account. During the war it was more a matter of national survival, so the splits were kept inside the government to present a united front (at least most of the time).
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
The WHO had complete freedom to go where they wanted to go, talk to anyone they wanted to & had Mandarin & Cantonese speakers amongst their team?
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.
I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.
I may have missed something , but who is arguing that what is happening in the free world is not actually quite bad? I certainly am not!
But you think the Chinese government somehow stopped it spreading through the rest of China whilst it's spread through the rest of the world.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Do you think it is appropriate that the WHO refused to assist Taiwan when they asked for help? Or that it refused to take a call from Taiwan when they offered to share their learnings about the disease?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Do you think it is appropriate that the WHO refused to assist Taiwan when they asked for help? Or that it refused to take a call from Taiwan when they offered to share their learnings about the disease?
Disciplinary action has been taken... against the reporter who tried to question the WHO about Taiwan.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
I don't believe WHO personnel have any aptitude or training for detecting when they are being lied to by sophisticated liars. So I am happy to go with hearsay - which sounds like a really bad thing to do, but actually almost all our beliefs about the world are founded on it.
Going back to urns - no, I haven't seen any calculations which net off an average year's urns and show what the excess is, but it seems pretty clear that there is an excess.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
Personally I am not convinced we are only two weeks from the peak. Is there any convincing evidence? Aren't we all just guessing at this point.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Do you think it is appropriate that the WHO refused to assist Taiwan when they asked for help? Or that it refused to take a call from Taiwan when they offered to share their learnings about the disease?
That is a political issue, about Taiwan's relationship to the WHO, not a medical issue, but yes, they should accept evidence from wherever it comes.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
Personally I am not convinced we are only two weeks from the peak. Is there any convincing evidence? Aren't we all just guessing at this point.
(PS I very much hope I am wrong)
I think that's the current forecast from the egg heads.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
The WHO had complete freedom to go where they wanted to go, talk to anyone they wanted to & had Mandarin & Cantonese speakers amongst their team?
Did they meet with Dr Li Wenliang?
I think that he was hospitalised himself at the time.
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.
I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.
I may have missed something , but who is arguing that what is happening in the free world is not actually quite bad? I certainly am not!
But you think the Chinese government somehow stopped it spreading through the rest of China whilst it's spread through the rest of the world.
I think their brutally enforced quarantine measures were imposed across a large part of the country, and their system of control measures effective. Even more so than the more light touch techniques of South Korea.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Do you think it is appropriate that the WHO refused to assist Taiwan when they asked for help? Or that it refused to take a call from Taiwan when they offered to share their learnings about the disease?
Disciplinary action has been taken... against the reporter who tried to question the WHO about Taiwan.
On Thursday Hong Kong’s secretary for commerce and economic development, Edward Yau, accused RTHK of breaching its charter obligations which include “promoting understanding of the concept of ‘One Country, Two Systems’.”
Just to make your post 100% clear. The journalist was disciplined for implying that Taiwan was not part of China [PRC sees ROC as part of the "One Country"]
RTHK said it had reviewed the interview and stood by it. RTHK advisory panel member, Fermi Wong, labelled it “nonsense” which may have come after pressure from the foreign ministry or Chinese Community Party.
“I don’t really understand why when a reporter is asking something relating to health, she or he has to remember there is ‘One Country, Two Systems’ … in line with the government or China,” she said.
But I'm glad to see that RTHK is standing up for her.
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
I think @AndyJS put it well last night when he said some left-wing Westerners in Western countries have a visceral reaction to fellow Westerners criticising non-Western countries because assume a bit of hidden racism.
Everything is about racism these days in the West.
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
It is just a fire on the roof comrade.
I read that as medieval bureaucrats at first.....
Black Death strikes again.
Only 3,322 deaths in caught by surprise China as opposed to plenty of notice U.K. Guido.
Does anyone believe the China death figures
Do you have any evidence they are systematically wrong?
There was an NY Times article on this yesterday. I don't think anyone believes them, except perhaps for the politburo.
Did the article contain any evidence they are wrong?
Just to clarify, I don't mean wrong in the same way the UK case numbers are wrong - showing only a 20th or a 30th of the true figure.
Thanks. Allegations sourced to "current and former intelligence officials."
But you know of no evidence to support the allegations.
Do you think the NY Times would run it if they didn't think it was credible? Are there any countries that have stated they continue to have faith in the Chinese numbers?
So - no evidence - but anonymous CIA sources have made allegations, and the allegations have been reported by the New York Times, so you accept it unquestioningly.
No, it's just another indication that the true figures are far higher.
When I asked for the evidence, you pointed me towards that article. Now it's "just another indication".
So what is your evidence really?
The NY times is reporting that they have evidence of this. I trust that the reporting is accurate.
Quote the part where the NY Times says it has evidence to support the allegations.
But American intelligence agencies have concluded that the Chinese government itself does not know the extent of the virus and is as blind as the rest of the world. Midlevel bureaucrats in the city of Wuhan, where the virus originated, and elsewhere in China have been lying about infection rates, testing and death counts, fearful that if they report numbers that are too high they will be punished, lose their position or worse, current and former intelligence officials said.
That's obviously just coming from their unnamed sources. There's no indication whatsoever in what you quoted that the NY Times has independent evidence to support the allegations.
Is this really the sole basis of your conviction that the Chinese are lying about their figures?
Yeah, the sources were current and former intelligence officials. I'm not sure complete transparency should be expected.
No. As I said, it's another indication that something is strange with their numbers.
OK. I'll ask again. If that's just "another indication" what is the main basis for your claim.
Come on.
The sum of all previous reports? Isn't that normally how you come to a conclusion on something?
But you're inacapable of remembering a single piece of hard evidence from these "reports" that have convinced you.
Just google it. The WaPo, Time magazine, NYT, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Guardian and every first world paper in print have carried the story and either endorse it or treat it with the utmost repect. When you have finished googling, have a look at twitter. Yes, I know there is such a thing as fake news, but a lot of information which has come out of Wuhan on twitter, e.g. about the deaths of doctors, has subsequently been verified. The Chinese have lied and lied and lied.
And yet the WHO inspection tour led by a Canadian specialist on the ground in China did not. First hand vs hearsay, which to believe?
Good to see the PRC's little helpers are out in force tonight.
No that's not the angle, the angle is still the brexit prism. Everything the UK does is shit. The Chinese numbers have to be true, because they are better than the UK. We are the worst country in existence, after all.
Yes, ignoring the fact that Italy, Spain, Iran, etc., etc. are all much of a muchness.
I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.
I may have missed something , but who is arguing that what is happening in the free world is not actually quite bad? I certainly am not!
But you think the Chinese government somehow stopped it spreading through the rest of China whilst it's spread through the rest of the world.
I think their brutally enforced quarantine measures were imposed across a large part of the country, and their system of control measures effective. Even more so than the more light touch techniques of South Korea.
You're wobbling.
Even you acknowledge upthread (for a brief moment) that their figures weren't reliable.
I think you blamed it on local officials though rather than the wholly trustworthy national government.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie
I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
I bet the WHO turn out (eventually) to have as much integrity as FIFA.
We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.
Has anyone here ever denied the Tiananmen Square massacre?
That's when China used its own tanks to machine gun and crush its own students under tank tracks and then used hoses to hose down the remains into gutters and drains to clean up and hide all the evidence.
That's the sort of regime you're putting ahead of the British Government.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
We're coming up to the 21st anniversary of those tragic few weeks when nothing happened in Tiananmen Square.
Has anyone here ever denied the Tiananmen Square massacre?
That's when China used its own tanks to machine gun and crush its own students under tank tracks and then used hoses to hose down the remains into gutters and drains to clean up and hide all the evidence.
That's the sort of regime you're putting ahead of the British Government.
But China never did Brexit *, so it's pretty much even.
* That little detail about building a wall so massive it could be seen from space and making the Mongols pay for it was just a misunderstanding
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
It might be worth mentioning in this context the devastation caused to African wildlife by Chinese so-called "medicine".
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
I bet the WHO turn out (eventually) to have as much integrity as FIFA.
Yup, that's my sense of it too. I don't trust anything coming from the WHO. All of these organisations seem to value not being seen as racist more than anything else.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
Personally I am not convinced we are only two weeks from the peak. Is there any convincing evidence? Aren't we all just guessing at this point.
(PS I very much hope I am wrong)
I believe - I haven’t checked lately - that our curve is slowly flattening. Consistent with a peak in a fortnight or less. But after that we plateau. For how long who knows.
The answer will decide whether 15,000 die, or 50,000, in this first wave
Slide 4 begins to hint that new cases being admitted to hospital is levelling off across the country. Will have to see if this is a temporary plateau or if it's where we end up for the next week. I would expect the number of new cases we see this weekend to be approximately the number of new cases for 7 days or so, leading up to our peak strain on ICUs around the Easter weekend. That would certainly be consistent with the spread of the epidemic in Italy.
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
Personally I am not convinced we are only two weeks from the peak. Is there any convincing evidence? Aren't we all just guessing at this point.
(PS I very much hope I am wrong)
I believe - I haven’t checked lately - that our curve is slowly flattening. Consistent with a peak in a fortnight or less. But after that we plateau. For how long who knows.
The answer will decide whether 15,000 die, or 50,000, in this first wave
My simple R value has reached 2.01 today*, down from 2.31 yesterday and 2.58 the day before. The 2.31 was pretty much in line with the number expected from school closures but before lockdown according to Imperial, and that is pretty much in line with the time window I expect the infections took place. As we reflect lockdown I expect that R will move quite quickly towards 1, as elsewhere, the question is whether it then settles slightly above 1 for time, as did Italy, meaning daily cases numbers edge up and accumulate large numbers for a while, or whether it edges quickly below 1 and we start to see cases reduce. The is a hell of a lot of variation in outcome in the difference between settling at 1.1 and 0.9, and Imperial has some lockdowns on either side for different countries, with their error bars spanning. * Ratio of Weds-Fri published case figures this week: Weds-Fri last week.
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
£1m per ICU bed per year?! That's a fact that needs a little more publicity - I certainly had no idea it was that high.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
I bet the WHO turn out (eventually) to have as much integrity as FIFA.
I think that's a little harsh. The top brass at FIFA skimmed hundreds of millions over the years. At the WHO, budgets are tiny and opportunities for corruption rather limited.
What the WHO will be is in hock to those who pay its bills. Those UN countries who are happy to ensure that the UN stay funded end up with disproportionate say.
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
Personally I am not convinced we are only two weeks from the peak. Is there any convincing evidence? Aren't we all just guessing at this point.
(PS I very much hope I am wrong)
I believe - I haven’t checked lately - that our curve is slowly flattening. Consistent with a peak in a fortnight or less. But after that we plateau. For how long who knows.
The answer will decide whether 15,000 die, or 50,000, in this first wave
My simple R value has reached 2.01 today*, down from 2.31 yesterday and 2.58 the day before. The 2.31 was pretty much in line with the number expected from school closures but before lockdown according to Imperial, and that is pretty much in line with the time window I expect the infections took place. As we reflect lockdown I expect that R will move quite quickly towards 1, as elsewhere, the question is whether it then settles slightly above 1 for time, as did Italy, meaning daily cases numbers edge up and accumulate large numbers for a while, or whether it edges quickly below 1 and we start to see cases reduce. The is a hell of a lot of variation in outcome in the difference between settling at 1.1 and 0.9, and Imperial has some lockdowns on either side for different countries, with their error bars spanning. * Ratio of Weds-Fri published case figures this week: Weds-Fri last week.
I don't think R was really above 1 in Italy in the aftermath of the lockdown. I think it merely appeared to be so because number of tests per day went from under 10,000 to close to 50,000.
I struggle to recall a time when there was such an enormous gap between what the media thinks the story is and what the public actually think. Brexit was consensus and harmony central by comparison.
@Foxy on a more important topic, I hope you are okay and that today was not too onerous.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
I haven't seen today's figures for Leicester/Leics yet, but all our ICU beds are full* and patients now being ventilated in converted operating theatres. Deaths are up about 25% each day. We have ward capacity still, largely because of taking down planned activity.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
Thanks so much Foxy! That sounds vaguely encouraging about capacity in Leicester / Leics. I think there is good reason to think the worst will be next weekend. Re testing, have any of the Samba II diagnostic machines made their way to you? That would solve a lot of immediate quick re-testing issues, albeit they are clearly not the solution for mass testing.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie
I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help
I was joking
Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious
Nick does think that on balance it would be preferable to live in the PRC than in present day America. I think a lot of left wing people think left wng politics would work if it wasn't for 'those bloody people' holdings things back - reactionaries, capitalists, the religious. So it's not surprising that they have a lingering sympathy for hard-line regimes of their own stripe. To be fair, the same would be true of right-wingers and right-wing dictatorships.
Quite depressing that foxy, who is - after all - a doctor, is so weirdly and unscientifically credulous when it comes to China.
It's not hard.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
No, I would much rather we remained closely integrated with the European than the Chinese economy, it is the Brexiteers who think the converse.
The chinese figure argument is really quie bizarre. There's being wary of leaping to conclusions simply because we dislike the Chinese regime and it looks suspiciously good, but several people are outright going out to bat for the regime at the merest suggestion there could be issues, outright defensive.
I'm not sure that anyone is batting for the regime here. The folk wittering on about the wicked Chinese government are neither here nor there. We know that it's an oppressive autocracy who are not above making stuff up, and lock people up for spreading bad news. That's not the issue here.
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
Good point, nick. If you weren’t by your own admission a filthy commie
I suggest you look up the definition of commie and if you were joking a smiley face would help
I was joking
Tho I do find nick’s attitude annoyingly glib and incurious
Nick does think that on balance it would be preferable to live in the PRC than in present day America. I think a lot of left wing people think left wng politics would work if it wasn't for 'those bloody people' holdings things back - reactionaries, capitalists, the religious. So it's not surprising that they have a lingering sympathy for hard-line regimes of their own stripe. To be fair, the same would be true of right-wingers and right-wing dictatorships.
I don't think Nick has ever said that, though SeanT was wont to sing the praises of China. The only country that Nick seems to aspire to be like is Denmark, and that is fine by me.
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
That’s excellent news. And we are only two weeks from the peak.
It looks like we might do this. Without crashing the NHS. God willing.
Personally I am not convinced we are only two weeks from the peak. Is there any convincing evidence? Aren't we all just guessing at this point.
(PS I very much hope I am wrong)
I believe - I haven’t checked lately - that our curve is slowly flattening. Consistent with a peak in a fortnight or less. But after that we plateau. For how long who knows.
The answer will decide whether 15,000 die, or 50,000, in this first wave
My simple R value has reached 2.01 today*, down from 2.31 yesterday and 2.58 the day before. The 2.31 was pretty much in line with the number expected from school closures but before lockdown according to Imperial, and that is pretty much in line with the time window I expect the infections took place. As we reflect lockdown I expect that R will move quite quickly towards 1, as elsewhere, the question is whether it then settles slightly above 1 for time, as did Italy, meaning daily cases numbers edge up and accumulate large numbers for a while, or whether it edges quickly below 1 and we start to see cases reduce. The is a hell of a lot of variation in outcome in the difference between settling at 1.1 and 0.9, and Imperial has some lockdowns on either side for different countries, with their error bars spanning. * Ratio of Weds-Fri published case figures this week: Weds-Fri last week.
Is it possible to estimate what the R0 value is with censored data (not every one is tested) reported at a national level?
I don't believe a word the Chinese government says...
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
You believe that then? Not that people are scared shitless?
I have friends who have returned to China from the UK because they think it's safer.
Comments
Come on.
You're the one making a claim that the figures are wrong.
What's your evidence?
What we don’t have hard evidence for is whether (certainly possible, if not probable) and to what extent (for now unknowable) the central government has fixed, manipulated or simply faked the figures.
(Though we do know they haven’t been counting asymptomatic infected until very recently.)
It's very easy to sneer, and when there's a whole herd of people sneering, it's very difficult to resist joining in.
Along with France, Germany, Ireland, the Nordic countries and Australia and New Zealand and Cuba, the UK is one of the few countries in the world which provides non contributory unemployment benefits
https://twitter.com/TheNotoriousMMA/status/1246143331408719873?s=20
France has double the amount of deaths as with China but only 5% of their population.
Chairman of the world medical association saying the Chinese figures are nonsense. Numerous media reports including TV5 France saying the same thing.
Dr Li Wenliang the whistle blower ring any bells or the five academics, journalists that tried to expose the truth & have now disappeared?
Are they all wrong and we are to believe the word of a totalitarian government.
I really couldn't care less about the Chinese lying about the situation in their country. That's their problem. I find it odd that apparently intelligent people can't look at what's happening in the free world to see that things are actually quite bad.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/
FOR SHAME!
The WHO had complete freedom to go where they wanted to go, talk to anyone they wanted to & had Mandarin & Cantonese speakers amongst their team?
Did they meet with Dr Li Wenliang?
In short, the number of hospitalisations in London is not quite as bad as feared for this point in the epidemic.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/hong-kong-official-reprimands-tv-station-over-who-interview-that-mentioned-taiwan
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/nightingale-emergency-coronavirus-hospital-london
"A week ago it had been thought that intensive care units in London would be overflowing by this point, but political sources said they had been told the capital’s hospitals were three-quarters full, which is better than expected."
Going back to urns - no, I haven't seen any calculations which net off an average year's urns and show what the excess is, but it seems pretty clear that there is an excess.
https://www.tobyperkins.org.uk/2020/04/03/recent-update-from-chesterfield-royal-hospital/
The first part of the sentence is where I am - the allegedly first-hand claims are from sources who routinely bash the Chinese government and support Taiwan, and I see the WHO as more credible. So I'm sceptical of the hostility to the Chinese claims, but I don't actually know either way. In any case itt doesn't mean that the Chinese government has suddenly become lovely..
What actually matters here in Britain is whether severe lockdown actually works. If it does, then influences the question of hether tightrening our own lockdown further would be helpful, as I suspect it would. If, on the other hand, it doesn't, then we need to rethink..
(PS I very much hope I am wrong)
113 in New Jersey
Just to make your post 100% clear. The journalist was disciplined for implying that Taiwan was not part of China [PRC sees ROC as part of the "One Country"]
RTHK said it had reviewed the interview and stood by it. RTHK advisory panel member, Fermi Wong, labelled it “nonsense” which may have come after pressure from the foreign ministry or Chinese Community Party.
“I don’t really understand why when a reporter is asking something relating to health, she or he has to remember there is ‘One Country, Two Systems’ … in line with the government or China,” she said.
But I'm glad to see that RTHK is standing up for her.
There are hints from some of the government figures (down thread) that new hospital admissions are now approaching more of a constant (albeit high) level. Have you observed this in Leics? I guess what the figures don't show is the fraction in ICU and how many admitted now will need ICU in a few days. Keeping all fingers crossed for you that the system creaks but just about copes.
Everything is about racism these days in the West.
Everything.
Even you acknowledge upthread (for a brief moment) that their figures weren't reliable.
I think you blamed it on local officials though rather than the wholly trustworthy national government.
That's the sort of regime you're putting ahead of the British Government.
It's all about Brexit for him. He thinks he sees Brexiteers (or people that look or sound like them) criticising China, so he goes in to bat for China. Because he suspects they secretly might be little bit racial and it really won't do to even vaguely agree with them.
It really is that simple.
* That little detail about building a wall so massive it could be seen from space and making the Mongols pay for it was just a misunderstanding
Slide 4 begins to hint that new cases being admitted to hospital is levelling off across the country. Will have to see if this is a temporary plateau or if it's where we end up for the next week. I would expect the number of new cases we see this weekend to be approximately the number of new cases for 7 days or so, leading up to our peak strain on ICUs around the Easter weekend. That would certainly be consistent with the spread of the epidemic in Italy.
Time critical patients such as cancer patients are being treated in separate areas. The Emergency dept has now got separate entrances for suspect and non suspect patients, and is considerably expanded. There are staff issues, particularly with numbers quarantining.
Testing has become such an issue because of supply of swabs and reagents. It is problematic to reswab likely cases when the first swab has been negative for example. Staff have to go to Nottingham to be swabbed, and only with management permission and in their own car.
With the current rationing of testing, I would be sceptical on number of admissions. For every 3 confirmed case we have 2 suspected but not confirmed.
Broadly, our local plan is working, despite anxieties about PPE and testing. If the peak does come Easter weekend we should be OK. Leicester currently has a little below the national average in cases, it is the West Midlands that seems pretty bad.
* ICU is not infrequently full at the best of times! Each ICU bed costs about £1 000 000 per year.
Did you catch the Sky question today? Jesus H Corbett
...but then again, I think it's important to understand *why* I don't believe them.
Firstly, their policies (like ours) seem designed not to find out the true number of cases. If you're not allowed to leave your apartment unless you have symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisaton, then you effectively have a public policy of underreporting.
(Add to which, of course, only deaths in hospital are counted.)
Secondly, you have a system where regional Governors are promoted not because they serve their people well, but because they produce results that central government likes. Central government wants few CV-19 deaths? By gosh, you'll deliver fewer CV-19 deaths.
(Add to which, there's little free press to keep the local politicians honest.)
The truth is that we don't know how many deaths from CV-19 there are in China, nor how many cases.
But nor does anyone else. The Chinese government, I suspect, doesn't know the true numbers. And therefore we have intelligence agencies (who Trump is suddenly listening to...) telling politicians that the numbers could be 5 to 50 times worse than reported. And I'm sure that range is broadly right. But we don't know where in that range the Chinese are.
However. Actions speak louder than words. Despite rumours of a flare up in Beijing, more restrictions are being loosened. Cinemas have just been re-opened. Mask wearing has gone from compulsory to advisory. These are all signs that the government thinks they have this under control, and that they can limit the speed at which any outbreak grows.
As we reflect lockdown I expect that R will move quite quickly towards 1, as elsewhere, the question is whether it then settles slightly above 1 for time, as did Italy, meaning daily cases numbers edge up and accumulate large numbers for a while, or whether it edges quickly below 1 and we start to see cases reduce. The is a hell of a lot of variation in outcome in the difference between settling at 1.1 and 0.9, and Imperial has some lockdowns on either side for different countries, with their error bars spanning.
* Ratio of Weds-Fri published case figures this week: Weds-Fri last week.
What the WHO will be is in hock to those who pay its bills. Those UN countries who are happy to ensure that the UN stay funded end up with disproportionate say.