politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A key GE19 battleground: The GE2017 Tories who voted Remain
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Yes, they've gotten attention but early signs are mixed at best.Gardenwalker said:Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.
It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.0 -
So we now know the pattern of the campaign.
James Cleverley pops up on the BBC every morning to apologise for the actions of his colleagues the previous day.0 -
I have voted in every GE since 1983, but never in a seat that has changed hands. Only for about 20% of us is there a realistic chance of this, the other 80% of us might as well sit it out. One reason for the high turnout for the referendums was that every vote counts in a way that FPTP doesn't.
Indeed. It is bizarre that that many make the audacious claim that the EU is undemocratic, while we have a system where in practicality 80% of us our votes count for nothing. It is a system that would make a banana republic blush.
Agreed
I have voted in every election since 1979, never for the winner, apart from 2015 when I voted for the tory! It was in the mistaken belief that I was voting for the coalition! I will never trust the tories again after they shafted the Libdems at that election!
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Lib Dems Dogging !!!!!Stocky said:Foxy said:
"Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."
I can`t help thinking that the LDs are dogging a hole for themselves by promising that they would never back Corbyn to become PM in any circumstances.
If the Tories fail to get a majority and a Lab/LD/SNP coalition or C&S would be the only way to enable a 2nd referendum then LDs will come under stong pressure to recant on their promise. Tuition fees?
The mind boggles.0 -
Whilst I broadly agree @NickPalmer that we need to be more respectful and less pejorative, use of phrases such as “girl guide” to allude to Jo Swinson's junior/lack of experience are not necessarily sexist. Nor is “screeching” to denote her tone, although ”hectoring” might be better.NickPalmer said:
I'm not a fan of Swinson and thought her launch was astonishingly weak (I'm gonna be PM+we hate Brexit+we hate Corbyn, and er that's it), but can we skip the sexist derision ("girl guide", "screeching", "Violet Elizabeth")? There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.NorthCadboll said:Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.
If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.
We can be very quick to see sexism in colourful and descriptive phrases where sometimes it isn’t.
Plus Ms Swinson is repeatedly making her gender an issue.
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At least we know Corbyn has key allies who are, or were, stalinist, but it's at best a bit over the top and the suggestion from here last night, rather than Boris, that Corbyn was like stalin himself was bizarre and offensive, and I say that as no fan of corbyn. It was because of Corbyn I voted Tory for the first time in 2017.Foxy said:
I am a current member of the LDs, and former member of the Lab party. I moved over after the Iraq war mongering.ydoethur said:
Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.DavidL said:
It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to define it.Foxy said:
Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.TOPPING said:
I see the problem but weAlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to eir votes.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.
To me, the depiction of Corbyn as a stalinist is bizarre. It is Johnson's party that is ruthlessly purging dissenters, dictating top down policy, and persuing ideological policies regardless of economic consequences.
Johnson and Stalin also share youthful womanising, a sense of humour and a ruthless lust for power.0 -
And in the ensuing chaos Boris escapes scrutiny for another day and the debate remains polarised helping Boris back to number 10.SandyRentool said:So we now know the pattern of the campaign.
James Cleverley pops up on the BBC every morning to apologise for the actions of his colleagues the previous day.0 -
Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?
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Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.0 -
Nice Mr Cameron called the EU ref nobody made him do it.Nigel_Foremain said:Mr Alanbrooke: What like Brexiteers you mean? No-one gave a shit about the EU before all this pointless nonsense was stirred up. And no, not everyone has values, Boris Johnson is a good example. Additionally Ms Swinson is not "forcing" anything on anyone. She is seeking to persuade them to vote for her, so please stop being silly.
Johnsons does have values but they are largely centred around himself
Comments on la Swinson are based on how she comes across to me. Ive voted LD in the past but wouldnt vote for her, so for me not very persuasive,-1 -
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.0 -
I was worried about what Labour's plans might mean for me and my family, but since I am not an early twentieth century Russian peasant I think I will be ok.0
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Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
He said something like Corbyn threatens the rich more than anyone has threatened a group since Stalin attacked the Kulacks.Fysics_Teacher said:
Where did he do that?Jonathan said:Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.
Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.
More sophisticated than “you’re Stalin you are”0 -
a vote for the LDs is a vote for the status quo in country looking for change.Nigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.2 -
In all seriousness media people are already joking about the tories having another shit campaign, they really need an early positive to knock such joking from developing into a trend.CarlottaVance said:0 -
It is BoZo's Brexit that will destroy the British Kulak farmers, not Jezza.OnlyLivingBoy said:I was worried about what Labour's plans might mean for me and my family, but since I am not an early twentieth century Russian peasant I think I will be ok.
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I’m not talking about merits demerits of two completely different brexit policies, my point is about an election campaign full of unforced errors And badly run.egg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.1 -
Do gubernatorial races correlate with POTUS ?Alistair said:For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.
Nevertheless positive for my generally pro Dem General betting positions (I think)
It's Kevin Schofield, Mr Daily Mirror.kle4 said:
In all seriousness media people are already joking about the tories having another shit campaign, they really need an early positive to knock such joking from developing into a trend.CarlottaVance said:0 -
I am with Nick Palmer on this. It IS sexist, plain as can be. If those comments were made in the work place it would be called out for what it is. Language often subtly reveals peoples' real approach and beliefs, just as Rees-Mogg showed himself up the other day.RobinWiggs said:
Whilst I broadly agree @NickPalmer that we need to be more respectful and less pejorative, use of phrases such as “girl guide” to allude to Jo Swinson's junior/lack of experience are not necessarily sexist. Nor is “screeching” to denote her tone, although ”hectoring” might be better.NickPalmer said:
I'm not a fan of Swinson and thought her launch was astonishingly weak (I'm gonna be PM+we hate Brexit+we hate Corbyn, and er that's it), but can we skip the sexist derision ("girl guide", "screeching", "Violet Elizabeth")? There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.NorthCadboll said:Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.
If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.
We can be very quick to see sexism in colourful and descriptive phrases where sometimes it isn’t.
Plus Ms Swinson is repeatedly making her gender an issue.1 -
Danny:
A common theme of prime ministerial memoirs is that there was so much more to the job than setting a direction and watching the machine follow it. They personally lead. They personally make judgments.
To believe that stopping Brexit is a national emergency and that Boris Johnson is so off-putting that it justifies a Corbyn government is a rational decision. I won’t make it but some of my friends will and I respect that. But let no one vote pretending to themselves that a Corbyn government could never happen or that, if it did, it wouldn’t matter. It could and it would.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd17587c-ffe9-11e9-ac10-05df8e730a811 -
In safe seats. But if you really want remain in most of the non labour seats you still vote labour if you go by the last vote. Do we think the LDs will successfully convince people they are better placed despite being third or worse in many seats?Foxy said:
Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.1 -
As a Tory Remainer I'm glad I live in a Lab/LD marginal.
As someone who views Brexit and Corbynism as two cheeks of the same arse it would be a difficult choice in a Tory/Lab marginal.
I think the UK can survive Brexit because if it is a disaster the UK will rejoin the EU PDQ, replete with the Euro, and it'll be worth it to see the reaction of the Leavers that made it possible.
I'm not sure the UK can survive Corbynism.0 -
Many MPs are not good with their personal finances. Why we entrust them with the nation's is a mystery.....Stocky said:Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?0 -
Alanbrooke said: "she [Swinson] currently comes across as nanny whip who wants to tell us all how to lead our lives"
Crikey, this is a poor look for a liberal to have!!0 -
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.0 -
Im sure he;ll have sleepless nights now youve said thatNigel_Foremain said:
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.1 -
True enough. It's another fantasy to think it will be as simple as just not getting BoJo and it'll be fine.CarlottaVance said:Danny:
A common theme of prime ministerial memoirs is that there was so much more to the job than setting a direction and watching the machine follow it. They personally lead. They personally make judgments.
To believe that stopping Brexit is a national emergency and that Boris Johnson is so off-putting that it justifies a Corbyn government is a rational decision. I won’t make it but some of my friends will and I respect that. But let no one vote pretending to themselves that a Corbyn government could never happen or that, if it did, it wouldn’t matter. It could and it would.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd17587c-ffe9-11e9-ac10-05df8e730a81
I've never before been glad to be in a safe seat where my vote wont swing things in any way.0 -
But not a risk Labour has ben prepared to take, eh Nick?NickPalmer said:There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.
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The focus on Swinson is probably the right thing to do, but they are articulating it in the wrong way.kle4 said:
Yes, they've gotten attention but early signs are mixed at best.Gardenwalker said:Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.
It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.
Swinson is not worth voting for because of “sexism”.
Swinson is worth voting for because...?0 -
https://twitter.com/brycetache/status/1191928386383269888?s=20Alistair said:For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.
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Jesus Christ. What is it about Scottish female politicians that triggers the PB Tories? Ungallant and crass.Banterman said:
When you see pictures of her without the political slap on, you can see it's a major effort to present the Nicola FM look. It must be extremely hard to sustain it over the years as she is of course getting older.Alanbrooke said:
I saw Nicola Sturgeon on TV the other night and was struck by how much she had aged since becoming FM. I dont thin the job is doing her health much good, Salmond seemed to take it all in his stride.DavidL said:
Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.ydoethur said:
Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.DavidL said:
It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.Foxy said:
Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:MarqueeMark said:
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.
To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.1 -
Yes, the Council, Euro votes and polls all support the LDs as the challengers.kle4 said:
In safe seats. But if you really want remain in most of the non labour seats you still vote labour if you go by the last vote. Do we think the LDs will successfully convince people they are better placed despite being third or worse in many seats?Foxy said:
Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.
Mrs Foxy though is showing worrying signs of support for Labour's campaign. She likes the Zero Carbon stuff in particular.0 -
Silly comment, Mr Alanbrooke, I doubt Mr. Rees-Mogg even has a computer, let alone reads PB. It would probably do him some good if he didAlanbrooke said:
Im sure he;ll have sleepless nights now youve said thatNigel_Foremain said:
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.0 -
Steve has got Boris's head just a wee bit overscale there. Maybe that's the joke.
https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve/status/1191852901171433474?s=200 -
And not Jewish, obvs.OnlyLivingBoy said:I was worried about what Labour's plans might mean for me and my family, but since I am not an early twentieth century Russian peasant I think I will be ok.
So that one fell a bit flat.1 -
Yawn............Nigel_Foremain said:
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.1 -
I an generally sceptical of policing our use of language out of fear of perceived sexism, but there are some, like hysterical, which I try to avoid as I think it's true they have been used in such a way or give that impression. The screeching one I fear is the same - i dont see Swinson as particularly screeching yet it gets used a lot.Nigel_Foremain said:
I am with Nick Palmer on this. It IS sexist, plain as can be. If those comments were made in the work place it would be called out for what it is. Language often subtly reveals peoples' real approach and beliefs, just as Rees-Mogg showed himself up the other day.RobinWiggs said:
Whilst I broadly agree @NickPalmer that we need to be more respectful and less pejorative, use of phrases such as “girl guide” to allude to Jo Swinson's junior/lack of experience are not necessarily sexist. Nor is “screeching” to denote her tone, although ”hectoring” might be better.NickPalmer said:
I'm not a fan of Swinson and thought her launch was astonishingly weak (I'm gonna be PM+we hate Brexit+we hate Corbyn, and er that's it), but can we skip the sexist derision ("girl guide", "screeching", "Violet Elizabeth")? There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.NorthCadboll said:Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.
If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.
We can be very quick to see sexism in colourful and descriptive phrases where sometimes it isn’t.
Plus Ms Swinson is repeatedly making her gender an issue.
I'm not about to declare anyone who uses such terms as closet sexists, but given I do think Swindon gets disproportionate vitriol, personally I will be more cautious in language.1 -
It's preferable to the alternatives - from my point of view.AlastairMeeks said:
The current Conservative party is in no meaningful way conservative. It is reckless and has set itself in opposition to order, good governance and the rule of law. So what’s the appeal of it to you?TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.1 -
The Tories will be pleased that they are holding over half of their 2017 Remainers vote and the LDs will be pleased they are picking up over a quarter of those Tory Remainers who are defecting.
However that piechart is very bad news for Corbyn Labour, if it is to form a majority Government or even just get enough seats to form a minority government with the SNP then it needs to be picking up 2017 Tory Remain voters who should be a prime target for the party, the fact it is picking up just 3% of them, not even more than are voting Brexit Party now, is terrible news for Corbyn0 -
Foxy said "In such a parliament, Lab could form a minority government and get support for individual Bill's, but without a formal arrangement. That is as far as it would go."
In the scenario that the Tories win most seats but fail to get a majority (and can`t form any coalitions) is it possible that a Labour minority government can arise?
I think that it is possible, in this scenario, for the Tories (as incumbents) to limp on as a minority government but I`m noit sure that Labour to claim to the Queen that they can do this without a coalition or C&S from other parties to command a majority.
Maybe I`m wrong - can someone clarify this? Specifically, if the Tories win most seats can Labour take charge as a minority government with fewer MPs than theTories and with no agreements with other parties.0 -
Hes not the only one whose noted they have had a bad start. The point is they need a win early on to stop the potential of the same narrative as last time emerging, whether that narrative would be fair or not.Pulpstar said:
Do gubernatorial races correlate with POTUS ?Alistair said:For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.
Nevertheless positive for my generally pro Dem General betting positions (I think)
It's Kevin Schofield, Mr Daily Mirror.kle4 said:
In all seriousness media people are already joking about the tories having another shit campaign, they really need an early positive to knock such joking from developing into a trend.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Don't worry, all the PB Tories that had conniptions at every chauvinist jibe aimed at Tessy will be along any minute.Anabobazina said:
Jesus Christ. What is it about Scottish female politicians that triggers the PB Tories? Ungallant and crass.0 -
OT some entertaining historical political gossip:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7653227/Society-diarist-KENNETH-ROSE-takes-ink-tipped-stiletto-political-class.html
November 15, 1993
William Waldegrave tells me that when he was Ted Heath’s Political Secretary, he would be rung up out of the blue by peppery colonels who would say [for instance]: ‘What we want as Prime Minister is not an old queer like Heath, but a fine upstanding gentleman like Jeremy Thorpe.’ At that very moment, William had on his desk the Home Office files on Jeremy’s private life.1 -
Cleverley is the embodiment of the counter argument to the theory of nominative determinism.SandyRentool said:So we now know the pattern of the campaign.
James Cleverley pops up on the BBC every morning to apologise for the actions of his colleagues the previous day.0 -
JRM’s computer of choice is the Babbage EngineNigel_Foremain said:
Silly comment, Mr Alanbrooke, I doubt Mr. Rees-Mogg even has a computer, let alone reads PB. It would probably do him some good if he didAlanbrooke said:
Im sure he;ll have sleepless nights now youve said thatNigel_Foremain said:
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.0 -
No doubt you have pictures of both of them pinned to your bedroom wallMarqueeMark said:
Yawn............Nigel_Foremain said:
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.0 -
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
Utter and total garbage. Jo Swinson is a light weight. Margaret Thatcher, Barbara Castle, Betty Boothroyd, Harriet Harmen, Amber Rudd, Winnie Ewing and Nicola Sturgeon to name but a few are or were competent, serious and successful female politicians. Too many low grade individuals hide behind faux outrage and they have to make their gender an issue to his their lack of ability.Nigel_Foremain said:
I am with Nick Palmer on this. It IS sexist, plain as can be. If those comments were made in the work place it would be called out for what it is. Language often subtly reveals peoples' real approach and beliefs, just as Rees-Mogg showed himself up the other day.RobinWiggs said:
Whilst I broadly agree @NickPalmer that we need to be more respectful and less pejorative, use of phrases such as “girl guide” to allude to Jo Swinson's junior/lack of experience are not necessarily sexist. Nor is “screeching” to denote her tone, although ”hectoring” might be better.NickPalmer said:
I'm not a fan of Swinson and thought her launch was astonishingly weak (I'm gonna be PM+we hate Brexit+we hate Corbyn, and er that's it), but can we skip the sexist derision ("girl guide", "screeching", "Violet Elizabeth")? There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.NorthCadboll said:Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.
If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.
We can be very quick to see sexism in colourful and descriptive phrases where sometimes it isn’t.
Plus Ms Swinson is repeatedly making her gender an issue.
My late mother who at one time in the 1980s was the most senior woman in the construction industry in Scotland had absolutely no time for feminism and feminists. She considered them women who conceded they were not equal to their male colleagues in the same profession etc and she personally was too busy smashing glass ceilings to waste her time with them. She much preferred the company of men. On a personal level she got on exceptionally well with both Margaret Thatcher and Winnie Ewing, both of whom she encountered in her professional career.1 -
Martin_Kinsella said:
"Lib Dems Dogging !!!!!
The mind boggles."
Oops - apologies - that is the mother of all typos. Didn`t mean to cast any aspertions on Swinson.0 -
To be fair that is probably a lot of peoples' calculation when voting under our broken systemSean_F said:
It's preferable to the alternatives - from my point of view.AlastairMeeks said:
The current Conservative party is in no meaningful way conservative. It is reckless and has set itself in opposition to order, good governance and the rule of law. So what’s the appeal of it to you?TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.
1 -
It didnt seem to hurt them with the target audience, but I hope we get a repeat of labour's 'only this old white man can unlock your potential, BAME voters' from last time, that provoked some amusement.0
-
We'll have none of that new fangled nonsense.not_on_fire said:
JRM’s computer of choice is the Babbage EngineNigel_Foremain said:
Silly comment, Mr Alanbrooke, I doubt Mr. Rees-Mogg even has a computer, let alone reads PB. It would probably do him some good if he didAlanbrooke said:
Im sure he;ll have sleepless nights now youve said thatNigel_Foremain said:
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.kle4 said:
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.AlastairMeeks said:
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.
https://youtu.be/RyBsOe6E_aI0 -
She really said that?!Stocky said:Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?0 -
Ha. Indubitably.Theuniondivvie said:
Don't worry, all the PB Tories that had conniptions at every chauvinist jibe aimed at Tessy will be along any minute.Anabobazina said:
Jesus Christ. What is it about Scottish female politicians that triggers the PB Tories? Ungallant and crass.0 -
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists1 -
I've never made that connection. I'd assumed it was UKIP supporters who are using their newly found free time to get back to that sort of thing.Martin_Kinsella said:
Lib Dems Dogging !!!!!Stocky said:Foxy said:
"Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."
I can`t help thinking that the LDs are dogging a hole for themselves by promising that they would never back Corbyn to become PM in any circumstances.
If the Tories fail to get a majority and a Lab/LD/SNP coalition or C&S would be the only way to enable a 2nd referendum then LDs will come under stong pressure to recant on their promise. Tuition fees?
The mind boggles.0 -
Unless Tory Remain voters are willing to back Labour, it's hard to see where Labour's path to victory is.HYUFD said:The Tories will be pleased that they are holding over half of their 2017 Remainers vote and the LDs will be pleased they are picking up over a quarter of those Tory Remainers who are defecting.
However that piechart is very bad news for Corbyn Labour, if it is to form a majority Government or even just get enough seats to form a minority government with the SNP then it needs to be picking up 2017 Tory Remain voters who should be a prime target for the party, the fact it is picking up just 3% of them, not even more than are voting Brexit Party now, is terrible news for Corbyn0 -
Technically, in terms of political offering. Not all extreme positions are equally extreme or awful, though I suspect people will not accept that on the grounds they often mean extreme when what they mean is bad .Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists0 -
Lol! Indeed, Charles, extreme in their moderation.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
0 -
Only in your view. I am not particularly supportive of revoke as a policy, but it is simply the status quo, so no, not extremist at all. To suggest so is just political chicanery, and not every element of politics is dictated by Brexit.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists0 -
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
0 -
Can we have an unbiased opinion plskle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
Cleverly gone missing on Sky0
-
kle4 said: "She really said that?!"
Yes - you can read the whole letter below:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/angela-smith-exit-payment
0 -
The question wasnt if they are the challengers - there are some grounds to think that- but whether theyd convince people of that. Sounds from mrs foxy that theyve a way to go on that.Foxy said:
Yes, the Council, Euro votes and polls all support the LDs as the challengers.kle4 said:
In safe seats. But if you really y seats?Foxy said:
Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these n 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.
Mrs Foxy though is showing worrying signs of support for Labour's campaign. She likes the Zero Carbon stuff in particular.0 -
If the intention is to find the quickest way to condemn the LibDems to an irrelevant and diminishing future, yes I agree with you.Foxy said:
Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.TOPPING said:
I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.AlastairMeeks said:
Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.MarqueeMark said:
Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.AlastairMeeks said:
“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.MarqueeMark said:The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are
But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.
If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.
And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.
You might not see their problem. But they do.
The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.
Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.
I would rather the LibDems became a significant force, and to do so they need votes from all directions and to stop lending votes to other parties. Tactical voting kills the junior partner(s).0 -
Kay burley laying into a vacant chair when Cleverly has refused to be interviewed even though he is only 15ft away?0
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She also said:kle4 said:
She really said that?!Stocky said:Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?
"Given I had no option but to move to another party and then no option but to move to a vacant candidacy, I honestly consider I am being discriminated against."0 -
Aspersions?! You couldn't be doing more to enhance her appeal!Stocky said:Martin_Kinsella said:
"Lib Dems Dogging !!!!!
The mind boggles."
Oops - apologies - that is the mother of all typos. Didn`t mean to cast any aspertions on Swinson.0 -
Mr. Brooke, that does neglect the rise of UKIP, which many have seemingly forgotten.
Also the lack of a referendum on Lisbon. Not to mention the fact the political class moved increasingly towards integration with the EU (as proven by the difficulty of extracting ourselves from it) without any consultation with the electorate.
The problem wasn't holding the referendum. It was not holding the promised referendum on Lisbon. We would've rejected it, perhaps by a landslide. Instead, MPs decided things like keeping their promises and consulting the electorate were optional extras.
If the political class hadn't gravitated towards EU integration, away from common ground with their own people, or if they had sought public assent for such action, we would be in much better shape.
Now, regardless of what happens, there's going to be quite a difficult time ahead, even if we had competent and good-willed people in charge. (But the choice is Johnson or Corbyn, Dumb or Dumber).0 -
Now Nick Herbert isn't standing I can vote LD with a clear conscience.MarqueeMark said:
But not a risk Labour has ben prepared to take, eh Nick?NickPalmer said:There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.
0 -
He was stupid but her reaction is way over the topnichomar said:Kay burley laying into a vacant chair when Cleverly has refused to be interviewed even though he is only 15ft away?
0 -
Nick Herbert not standing? That's a shame. I liked him.SquareRoot said:
Now Nick Herbert isn't standing I can vote LD with a clear conscience.MarqueeMark said:
But not a risk Labour has ben prepared to take, eh Nick?NickPalmer said:There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.
0 -
This election is going to expose the media toxicity and general uselessness of the front benches quite mercilessly. Nearly all the good media performers are now on the backbenches.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
No option. I see she is very much a politician, employing the tactic of of pretending they had no choice when they did, the choices were just hard .tlg86 said:
She also said:kle4 said:
She really said that?!Stocky said:Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?
"Given I had no option but to move to another party and then no option but to move to a vacant candidacy, I honestly consider I am being discriminated against."0 -
@NorthCadbol: Clearly got you triggered there Sid. Whether she is a "lightweight" or not is debateable, but the language used about Swinson is sexist in the modern context, but maybe not the time period of your mummy. Shame you can't see that.0
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Foxy said:
"Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."
I`m not sure what you mean by the last sentence. You seem to be implying that LibDem supporters hold a preference for Labour in government over the Conservatives. Maybe I misunderstood. I`m a LibDem voter and I`d take the CP over Lab any day and I know many liberals like me. Orange Book liberalism still alive and well. Apologies if I misunderstood your point.0 -
I actually agree with thatFoxy said:
This election is going to expose the media toxicity and general uselessness of the front benches quite mercilessly. Nearly all the good media performers are now on the backbenches.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
Robinson gave him a rough time alright, but the poor sod had a really difficult brief there. Cleverley may be a grade A shit but he does his job well and the fact that even he was struggling is an indication of how wobbly a day the Tories had yesterday.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.hamiltonace said:
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.0 -
If the Democrats nominate Warren that guarantees Kentucky goes back to Trump and the GOP againFoxy said:It does look as if Trump is good at getting out the vote for the Dems:
https://twitter.com/tbonier/status/1191894324025405441?s=19
President Warren incoming...0 -
Eh? What are you on about, everyone has biases. I've not seen this morning but hes not had the greatest set of media performances since becoming chairman. Until Abbot or Burgon get rolled out we wont have Labour figures to criticise (hes definitely better than them though).SquareRoot said:
Can we have an unbiased opinion plskle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
fraid so Mr D, but as often happens society moves on and a new consensus emerges. The last time we had such an election was 1979 which replaced the 1945 consensus. This election is maybe the one to break the old mould and allow a new model to emerge. The country can chose the status quo ( LDs), radical socialism ( Lab) or splendid isolation (Con).Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Brooke, that does neglect the rise of UKIP, which many have seemingly forgotten.
Also the lack of a referendum on Lisbon. Not to mention the fact the political class moved increasingly towards integration with the EU (as proven by the difficulty of extracting ourselves from it) without any consultation with the electorate.
The problem wasn't holding the referendum. It was not holding the promised referendum on Lisbon. We would've rejected it, perhaps by a landslide. Instead, MPs decided things like keeping their promises and consulting the electorate were optional extras.
If the political class hadn't gravitated towards EU integration, away from common ground with their own people, or if they had sought public assent for such action, we would be in much better shape.
Now, regardless of what happens, there's going to be quite a difficult time ahead, even if we had competent and good-willed people in charge. (But the choice is Johnson or Corbyn, Dumb or Dumber).
All bets are off.0 -
If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?Charles said:
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.hamiltonace said:
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.0 -
With the LDs vote up on 2017 not down and the Brexit Party polling better than UKIP indeed, there are not enough Green voters to make many gains for LabourSean_F said:
Unless Tory Remain voters are willing to back Labour, it's hard to see where Labour's path to victory is.HYUFD said:The Tories will be pleased that they are holding over half of their 2017 Remainers vote and the LDs will be pleased they are picking up over a quarter of those Tory Remainers who are defecting.
However that piechart is very bad news for Corbyn Labour, if it is to form a majority Government or even just get enough seats to form a minority government with the SNP then it needs to be picking up 2017 Tory Remain voters who should be a prime target for the party, the fact it is picking up just 3% of them, not even more than are voting Brexit Party now, is terrible news for Corbyn0 -
Good to see HYUFD has reverted to his Comical Ali persona. I do wonder whetehr there are two HYUFDs at CCO. One who is a spotty Boris fanboy and the other who does actually do a bit of useful analysis (though still heavily biased)Sean_F said:
Unless Tory Remain voters are willing to back Labour, it's hard to see where Labour's path to victory is.HYUFD said:The Tories will be pleased that they are holding over half of their 2017 Remainers vote and the LDs will be pleased they are picking up over a quarter of those Tory Remainers who are defecting.
However that piechart is very bad news for Corbyn Labour, if it is to form a majority Government or even just get enough seats to form a minority government with the SNP then it needs to be picking up 2017 Tory Remain voters who should be a prime target for the party, the fact it is picking up just 3% of them, not even more than are voting Brexit Party now, is terrible news for Corbyn0 -
I wonder how many votes Grieve, Soubry etc will get in their constituencies? Can't see any of them coming even close to victory. I'd guess even those constituents who agree with them probably wouldn't vote for them as it would just be prolonging the agony.0
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What just happened?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I actually agree with thatFoxy said:
This election is going to expose the media toxicity and general uselessness of the front benches quite mercilessly. Nearly all the good media performers are now on the backbenches.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.
Cleverly got a text from Cummings and said it’s not working? Don’t go the 15 feet to the sky chair for another vote losing disaster trying to defend Project Fake?
If he’s shy going out in front the lights, I don’t think Kay’s art of persuasion is going to work on him. She went ballistic.
0 -
Its a sad day when the nation has run out of experienced liars and the electorate is forced to listen to politicans who say what they thinkFoxy said:
This election is going to expose the media toxicity and general uselessness of the front benches quite mercilessly. Nearly all the good media performers are now on the backbenches.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.
1 -
He has definitely triggered people with his comment. It remains technically true despite the outrage, as it is a policy on the extreme end of the ones on offer from everyone elsehamiltonace said:
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
I dont know why people get so worked up by that - not all politically extreme positions are equally extreme, and some mainstream positions (so not extreme) are extreme in effect.0 -
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know. For the first time since 1964 (when I was a precocious 10 year old, who sent off for and carefully read the three main parties' manifestos), I don't know who to support. It's been the Conservatives every time since 1964, although obviously I couldn't actually vote until some years later, but now? Dunno.
If the election had been one where Boris had been standing on a Jan 31st No Deal as an option, then it would have been completely unambiguous: there was no way on earth I was going to vote for that, I'd definitely have voted LibDem.
Now that Boris seems to have belatedly come, or been forced, to his senses, it's less clear. I want to 'get Brexit done', for sure. But Boris has made, from my point of view, some spectacular errors since coming to his senses in late October. I will find it extremely hard, verging on impossible, to vote Tory now that the party has gone so bonkers that it doesn't have room for Ken Clarke, Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Amber Rudd, four politicians who epitomise exactly why I voted Tory in the first place. And I am extremely concerned by Boris repeating the same dumb mistake over an arbitrary date in respect of the extension of the transition: as Phil Hammond pointed out, what was the point of getting the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated to avoid No Deal, if you are then prepared to countenance No Deal months later? This is an absolute red line for me.
I really don't like the LibDems for multiple reasons, not least their Revoke policy, and, like Boris, Jo Swinson keeps putting me off more. I want to vote for a grown-up, serious party, not one that tries to tack votes for children on a bill setting the date for an election in a few weeks time (and then doesn't vote for the election which they'd asked for two days earlier).
I'm not particularly impressed by the 'vote Tory to keep Corbyn out' argument. Not letting the good be the enemy of the best is fine, indeed highly commendable. However, that does assume that the Tories are at least acceptable, which the present leadership are doing their best to tell me they are not. And in any case, a vote for the LibDems (depending on constituency) is not a vote which helps Corbyn.
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
1 -
Vote LD then against Brexit but still for the Unionhamiltonace said:
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists0 -
The Conservatives will be entirely happy to talk about this kind of nonsense. It soaks up time from talking about substance, which is a much more dangerous area for them. Their unpleasantness, dishonesty and arrogance is already priced into voting decisions. For evidence of this, look upwards on this thread.Peter_the_Punter said:
Robinson gave him a rough time alright, but the poor sod had a really difficult brief there. Cleverley may be a grade A shit but he does his job well and the fact that even he was struggling is an indication of how wobbly a day the Tories had yesterday.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
It's what they think before they speak that matters.Alanbrooke said:
Its a sad day when the nation has run out of experienced liars and the electorate is forced to listen to politicans who say what they thinkFoxy said:
This election is going to expose the media toxicity and general uselessness of the front benches quite mercilessly. Nearly all the good media performers are now on the backbenches.kle4 said:
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current roleegg said:Cleverleys struggles on radio 4 this morning.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.0 -
Revoking without a referendum isn't extreme. The Vote Leave campaign said we'd never even need to invoke it - implying they would just seek a further renegotiation of the treaties.kle4 said:
He has definitely triggered people with his comment. It remains technically true despite the outrage, as it is a policy on the extreme end of the ones on offer from everyone elsehamiltonace said:
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
I dont know why people get so worked up by that - not all politically extreme positions are equally extreme, and some mainstream positions (so not extreme) are extreme in effect.0 -
Almost. Ok to protest but not stop it I suspect is his view in that scenario. But that seems an unrelated point to the extreme position oneOblitusSumMe said:
If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?Charles said:
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.hamiltonace said:
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.Charles said:
On Brexit we haveNigel_Foremain said:
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.Paristonda said:30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
BXP - no deal
Con - deal
Lab - different deal
LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.
The only equivalent unnecessary reaction I can think of is when leavers get upset over advisory referendum.0 -
There do seem to be a fair few Tories still who haven't given up on no deal, and seem to think Boris's transition deal could easily deliver that destination once the Tories are untroubled by parliamentary arithmeticRichard_Nabavi said:On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know. For the first time since 1964 (when I was a precocious 10 year old, who sent off for and carefully read the three main parties' manifestos), I don't know who to support. It's been the Conservatives every time since 1964, although obviously I couldn't actually vote until some years later, but now? Dunno.
If the election had been one where Boris had been standing on a Jan 31st No Deal as an option, then it would have been completely unambiguous: there was no way on earth I was going to vote for that, I'd definitely have voted LibDem.
Now that Boris seems to have belatedly come, or been forced, to his senses, it's less clear. I want to 'get Brexit done', for sure. But Boris has made, from my point of view, some spectacular errors since coming to his senses in late October. I will find it extremely hard, verging on impossible, to vote Tory now that the party has gone so bonkers that it doesn't have room for Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Amber Rudd, three politicians who epitomise exactly why I voted Tory in the first place. And I am extremely concerned by Boris repeating the same dumb mistake over an arbitrary date in respect of the extension of the transition: as Phil Hammond pointed out, what was the point of getting the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated to avoid No Deal, if you are then prepared to countenance No Deal months later? This is an absolute red line for me.
I really don't like the LibDems for multiple reasons, not least their Revoke policy, and, like Boris, Jo Swinson keeps putting me off more. I want to vote for a grown-up, serious party, not one that tries to tack votes for children on a bill setting the date for an election in a few weeks time (and then doesn't vote for the election which they'd asked for two days earlier).
I'm not particularly impressed by the 'vote Tory to keep Corbyn out' argument. Not letting the good be the enemy of the best is fine, indeed highly commendable. However, that does assume that the Tories are at least acceptable, which the present leadership are doing their best to tell me they are not. And in any case, a vote for the LibDems (depending on constituency) is not a vote which helps Corbyn.
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.0
