Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?
She really said that?!
She also said:
"Given I had no option but to move to another party and then no option but to move to a vacant candidacy, I honestly consider I am being discriminated against."
For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.
What I find really interesting about Kentucky, and also the earlier Senate election in Alabama, is that scandal does matter and will still bring down other Republican politicians.
This suggests that Trump is to some extent an exception, and may not be ushering in an era where objectivity dies completely.
Unfortunately, it looks like Johnson is also an exception, and we don't have the consolation of a term limit.
Remember project fear that didn’t work. Tory’s are turning their attack on Labour’s Brexit policy into Project Fake, and shooting their own feet off.
Cleverly seems quite funny and personable on Twitter but hes seemed to struggle in his current role
This election is going to expose the media toxicity and general uselessness of the front benches quite mercilessly. Nearly all the good media performers are now on the backbenches.
I actually agree with that
What just happened?
Cleverly got a text from Cummings and said it’s not working? Don’t go the 15 feet to the sky chair for another vote losing disaster trying to defend Project Fake?
If he’s shy going out in front the lights, I don’t think Kay’s art of persuasion is going to work on him. She went ballistic.
I have just been looking into the Nick Herbert story, and there is someone on twitter threatening to put the hounds on him. They have a better class of violent partisan threat in West Sussex.
Foxy said: "Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."
I`m not sure what you mean by the last sentence. You seem to be implying that LibDem supporters hold a preference for Labour in government over the Conservatives. Maybe I misunderstood. I`m a LibDem voter and I`d take the CP over Lab any day and I know many liberals like me. Orange Book liberalism still alive and well. Apologies if I misunderstood your point.
My impression from the outside is you would be a minority now . Not seen polling on it lately though.
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.
What I find really interesting about Kentucky, and also the earlier Senate election in Alabama, is that scandal does matter and will still bring down other Republican politicians.
This suggests that Trump is to some extent an exception, and may not be ushering in an era where objectivity dies completely.
Unfortunately, it looks like Johnson is also an exception, and we don't have the consolation of a term limit.
It takes a truly remarkable politician in our system to last much beyond 2 terms. Os that really Boris?
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.
I hope he doesn't resign, I think he's a real liability for the tories. He's got the same ugly attitudes and politics as Johnson but more people see it, as he lacks Johnson's obscuring "humour".
Foxy said: "Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."
I`m not sure what you mean by the last sentence. You seem to be implying that LibDem supporters hold a preference for Labour in government over the Conservatives. Maybe I misunderstood. I`m a LibDem voter and I`d take the CP over Lab any day and I know many liberals like me. Orange Book liberalism still alive and well. Apologies if I misunderstood your point.
In a Labour held seat switching from Labour to the Lib Dems is one less vote for the Labour MP trying to hold the seat so increases the chances of the Tory candidate winning. It's why I'm holding my nose and voting Labour in this election.
Elsewhere, it's highly unlikely there are any Tory held seats where currently Labour (in second place at the last election) have any chance of winning the seat. Given that is the case voting Lib Dem may not result in the Tories losing the seat but it may consolidate the Lib Dems as the party most likely to beat the Tories in a subsequent election.
Charles, old bean, Hehe, oh dear, you actually believe this stuff don't you? No doubt you thought good old Jacob was perfectly OK in what he said. Liberal democracy is no doubt extremist if you are Kim Yong-Un. Maintaining a current position, particularly if one believes the referendum was dubious and no longer relevant (it won't be after another GE) is simply pragmatic.
If she won a referendum by 52% to 48% supported by numerous bot-factories in Brussels, and then tried to shove the nation into joining the Euro with full Euro-federalism, then that might be extreme. But she isn't ,so you are talking, how should I put in parlance you might relate to, balderdash!
Foxy said: "Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."
I`m not sure what you mean by the last sentence. You seem to be implying that LibDem supporters hold a preference for Labour in government over the Conservatives. Maybe I misunderstood. I`m a LibDem voter and I`d take the CP over Lab any day and I know many liberals like me. Orange Book liberalism still alive and well. Apologies if I misunderstood your point.
There are several battles in this campaign, but almost certainly the election outcome will depend on how well Labour defend their seats. In those the decision is Lab/Tory forced choice, but elsewhere there are secondary battles with different options.
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.
I hope he doesn't resign, I think he's a real liability for the tories. He's got the same ugly attitudes and politics as Johnson but more people see it, as he lacks Johnson's obscuring "humour".
He won't. No other PM would be stupid enough to put such a ridiculous figure on the front bench. If the Tory party eventually returns to relative sanity and replaces Bozo, Rees-Mogg will be back to spending more time with his very large family.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know...
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
If none of the options open to you are acceptable then the only available course of action is to find like-minded people and to choose one among your number to stand as your candidate for election. This might not be a very successful course of action, but to fail to try is to try to fail.
On the other hand, bearing in mind the likelihood of no deal with a Johnson government I think it's clear that a Lib Dem vote is your least worst option. They might be trying to do a lot to put you off from voting for them, but do they really stack up that bad compared to Johnson and Corbyn?
As polling day approaches, there may well be fear of Corbyn, but there will also be fear of Brexit, and what the Tories might make of Brexit. Both will be in the minds of Tory remainers as they come to vote, and the balance between the two conflicting pressures will determine the election.
30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
On Brexit we have
BXP - no deal Con - deal Lab - different deal LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
How is revoke an extremist view? It is a vote for the status quo. I am a Tory Remainer in a Tory / SNP seat. I will never vote Tory with Boris in charge. I may vote Tory for Scottish and council seats. I will probably stay at home.
He has definitely triggered people with his comment. It remains technically true despite the outrage, as it is a policy on the extreme end of the ones on offer from everyone else
I dont know why people get so worked up by that - not all politically extreme positions are equally extreme, and some mainstream positions (so not extreme) are extreme in effect.
Revoking without a referendum isn't extreme. The Vote Leave campaign said we'd never even need to invoke it - implying they would just seek a further renegotiation of the treaties.
You've completely ignored what I've said. You're saying it's not an extreme action, whereas I'm saying it's on the political extreme based on what everyone is offering.
As I said I dont know why people get so worked up other than the fear that extreme means bad.
Yes. As my earlier posts indicated, there are still a few of us around. Actually, highlighted by this good header by OGH, there is a significant number.
I performed my self/soul-searching recently and decided that any flavour of Corbyn would be worse than what the Conservatives are offering. I had said, when you and others were resigning from the Party, that I would wait even to resign to see what happened by October 31st. In case there might be another leadership election, or...
As it turned out, I was amazed that the Cons let Boris off so lightly given he did as you pointed out from the very beginning he would do, by failing to honour his do or die pledge. So no leadership election, but a deal. Pretty much the same as May's as we all agree. Throws NI under the bus and I do not diminish the importance of the unionist community there, but if the people of NI are happy, I am happy, plus nominally they get to choose.
And then we come to the real world. A world of Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson. Of course we are in febrile times and there is no reason why there shouldn't be swings of 30% plus constituency by constituency but the basic calculus is that it's Lab vs Cons. We can mess around at the edges with voting LD (and I respect very much those who are going to do so) but every time someone in Leadership of the Labour Party opens their mouth, it confirms me in my view that I will vote Conservative.
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.
I hope he doesn't resign, I think he's a real liability for the tories. He's got the same ugly attitudes and politics as Johnson but more people see it, as he lacks Johnson's obscuring "humour".
As to who I shall vote for, it will either be the Lib Dems or the Greens (probably the Lib Dems). Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know...
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
If none of the options open to you are acceptable then the only available course of action is to find like-minded people and to choose one among your number to stand as your candidate for election. This might not be a very successful course of action, but to fail to try is to try to fail.
On the other hand, bearing in mind the likelihood of no deal with a Johnson government I think it's clear that a Lib Dem vote is your least worst option. They might be trying to do a lot to put you off from voting for them, but do they really stack up that bad compared to Johnson and Corbyn?
In themselves perhaps not, but a vote for the LibDems is a vote for a hung parliament, and the one we've just had has not exactly been a triumph of principled, sensible decision-making, on Brexit or on anything else.
In themselves perhaps not, but a vote for the LibDems is a vote for a hung parliament, and the one we've just had has not exactly been a triumph of principled, sensible decision-making, on Brexit or on anything else.
I think if you imagine it had instead been Con Maj 20 it would have been worse? The ERG would still have been the ERG, the opposition would still have opposed, and there wouldn't have been the votes to stop some maniac crashing out with No Deal.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know. For the first time since 1964 (when I was a precocious 10 year old, who sent off for and carefully read the three main parties' manifestos), I don't know who to support. It's been the Conservatives every time since 1964, although obviously I couldn't actually vote until some years later, but now? Dunno.
If the election had been one where Boris had been standing on a Jan 31st No Deal as an option, then it would have been completely unambiguous: there was no way on earth I was going to vote for that, I'd definitely have voted LibDem.
Now that Boris seems to have belatedly come, or been forced, to his senses, it's less clear. I want to 'get Brexit done', for sure. But Boris has made, from my point of view, some spectacular errors since coming to his senses in late October. I will find it extremely hard, verging on impossible, to vote Tory now that the party has gone so bonkers that it doesn't have room for Ken Clarke, Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Amber Rudd, four politicians who epitomise exactly why I voted Tory in the first place. And I am extremely concerned by Boris repeating the same dumb mistake over an arbitrary date in respect of the extension of the transition: as Phil Hammond pointed out, what was the point of getting the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated to avoid No Deal, if you are then prepared to countenance No Deal months later? This is an absolute red line for me.
I really don't like the LibDems for multiple reasons, not least their Revoke policy, and, like Boris, Jo Swinson keeps putting me off more. I want to vote for a grown-up, serious party, not one that tries to tack votes for children on a bill setting the date for an election in a few weeks time (and then doesn't vote for the election which they'd asked for two days earlier).
I'm not particularly impressed by the 'vote Tory to keep Corbyn out' argument. Not letting the good be the enemy of the best is fine, indeed highly commendable. However, that does assume that the Tories are at least acceptable, which the present leadership are doing their best to tell me they are not. And in any case, a vote for the LibDems (depending on constituency) is not a vote which helps Corbyn.
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.
I hope he doesn't resign, I think he's a real liability for the tories. He's got the same ugly attitudes and politics as Johnson but more people see it, as he lacks Johnson's obscuring "humour".
Have you actually heard what Mogg actually said?
Yes. It is appalling. I'm genuinely surprised that there are people who can't see this.
And it is typical of the kind of conservative (unfortunately the majority nowadays it seems, at least in parliament) who believes that rich people like him are rich because they deserve to be rich, and poor people are poor because they deserve to be poor.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know...
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
If none of the options open to you are acceptable then the only available course of action is to find like-minded people and to choose one among your number to stand as your candidate for election. This might not be a very successful course of action, but to fail to try is to try to fail.
On the other hand, bearing in mind the likelihood of no deal with a Johnson government I think it's clear that a Lib Dem vote is your least worst option. They might be trying to do a lot to put you off from voting for them, but do they really stack up that bad compared to Johnson and Corbyn?
In themselves perhaps not, but a vote for the LibDems is a vote for a hung parliament, and the one we've just had has not exactly been a triumph of principled, sensible decision-making, on Brexit or on anything else.
That rather depends upon what decisions we have been lucky to have avoided
I see Gavin Shuker is running as an independent in my seat. As the Conservatives have no hope of winning, I think I could vote for him, simply because it took courage to throw away his career by resigning the whip.
Labour NEC meeting this morning has tricky agenda I hear too - discussing Chris Williamson who some are lobbying to let stand, Keith Vaz who a member of NEC tells me isn’t going without a fight - nerves too about Salma Yaqoob and Emma Lewell Buck
As polling day approaches, there may well be fear of Corbyn, but there will also be fear of Brexit, and what the Tories might make of Brexit. Both will be in the minds of Tory remainers as they come to vote, and the balance between the two conflicting pressures will determine the election.
Conservatives who voted Remain who are still Conservatives have largely made their peace with Brexit.
For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.
What I find really interesting about Kentucky, and also the earlier Senate election in Alabama, is that scandal does matter and will still bring down other Republican politicians.
This suggests that Trump is to some extent an exception, and may not be ushering in an era where objectivity dies completely.
Unfortunately, it looks like Johnson is also an exception, and we don't have the consolation of a term limit.
It takes a truly remarkable politician in our system to last much beyond 2 terms. Os that really Boris?
I know he was against Livingstone (but then that might not be a bad analogy to the Labour Party for the next while) but he did manage to win the London Mayoralty for a second time when the Conservatives trailed by ~10 points in mid-term.
Crucially, he seems impervious to criticism, ridicule or scandal. The Supreme Court judgment was brutal and should have ended his tenure. You can lay some of the blame for its failure to do so at the Opposition, but I believe it's largely that nothing bad sticks to him.
In themselves perhaps not, but a vote for the LibDems is a vote for a hung parliament, and the one we've just had has not exactly been a triumph of principled, sensible decision-making, on Brexit or on anything else.
I think if you imagine it had instead been Con Maj 20 it would have been worse? The ERG would still have been the ERG, the opposition would still have opposed, and there wouldn't have been the votes to stop some maniac crashing out with No Deal.
This is very true. John Major had a majority of exactly 20 and it caused him no end of trouble. Probably the most chaotic Government since WW2, until 2017.
I see Gavin Shuker is running as an independent in my seat. As the Conservatives have no hope of winning, I think I could vote for him, simply because it took courage to throw away his career by resigning the whip.
Luton South is an interesting seat. I can remember it being Tory, but now is way out of reach. That is partly a function of the complete collapse of the LibDem vote, from a regular 22% to 2.2% last time.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know. For the first time since 1964 (when I was a precocious 10 year old, who sent off for and carefully read the three main parties' manifestos), I don't know who to support. It's been the Conservatives every time since 1964, although obviously I couldn't actually vote until some years later, but now? Dunno.
If the election had been one where Boris had been standing on a Jan 31st No Deal as an option, then it would have been completely unambiguous: there was no way on earth I was going to vote for that, I'd definitely have voted LibDem.
Now that Boris seems to have belatedly come, or been forced, to his senses, it's less clear. I want to 'get Brexit done', for sure. But Boris has made, from my point of view, some spectacular errors since coming to his senses in late October. I will find it extremely hard, verging on impossible, to vote Tory now that the party has gone so bonkers that it doesn't have room for Ken Clarke, Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Amber Rudd, four politicians who epitomise exactly why I voted Tory in the first place. And I am extremely concerned by Boris repeating the same dumb mistake over an arbitrary date in respect of the extension of the transition: as Phil Hammond pointed out, what was the point of getting the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated to avoid No Deal, if you are then prepared to countenance No Deal months later? This is an absolute red line for me.
I really don't like the LibDems for multiple reasons, not least their Revoke policy, and, like Boris, Jo Swinson keeps putting me off more. I want to vote for a grown-up, serious party, not one that tries to tack votes for children on a bill setting the date for an election in a few weeks time (and then doesn't vote for the election which they'd asked for two days earlier).
I'm not particularly impressed by the 'vote Tory to keep Corbyn out' argument. Not letting the good be the enemy of the best is fine, indeed highly commendable. However, that does assume that the Tories are at least acceptable, which the present leadership are doing their best to tell me they are not. And in any case, a vote for the LibDems (depending on constituency) is not a vote which helps Corbyn.
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
My prediction: you will vote Tory in the end ("with a heavy heart"). Anyone who is still even considering voting Tory despite the long list of valid reasons not to (especially any Remainer) is basically too loyal to the brand to not ultimately revert to type. (A similar argument applies to all the former Labour voters currently in the "don't know" column in polls - who will inevitably "come home" as the election hoves into view).
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
As polling day approaches, there may well be fear of Corbyn, but there will also be fear of Brexit, and what the Tories might make of Brexit. Both will be in the minds of Tory remainers as they come to vote, and the balance between the two conflicting pressures will determine the election.
Conservatives who voted Remain who are still Conservatives have largely made their peace with Brexit.
They (we) have made peace with Brexit. But we are going to fight against no deal still.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know. For the first time since 1964 (when I was a precocious 10 year old, who sent off for and carefully read the three main parties' manifestos), I don't know who to support. It's been the Conservatives every time since 1964, although obviously I couldn't actually vote until some years later, but now? Dunno.
If the election had been one where Boris had been standing on a Jan 31st No Deal as an option, then it would have been completely unambiguous: there was no way on earth I was going to vote for that, I'd definitely have voted LibDem.
Now that Boris seems to have belatedly come, or been forced, to his senses, it's less clear. I want to 'get Brexit done', for sure. But Boris has made, from my point of view, some spectacular errors since coming to his senses in late October. I will find it extremely hard, verging on impossible, to vote Tory now that the party has gone so bonkers that it doesn't have room for Ken Clarke, Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Amber Rudd, four politicians who epitomise exactly why I voted Tory in the first place. And I am extremely concerned by Boris repeating the same dumb mistake over an arbitrary date in respect of the extension of the transition: as Phil Hammond pointed out, what was the point of getting the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated to avoid No Deal, if you are then prepared to countenance No Deal months later? This is an absolute red line for me.
I'm not particularly impressed by the 'vote Tory to keep Corbyn out' argument. Not letting the good be the enemy of the best is fine, indeed highly commendable. However, that does assume that the Tories are at least acceptable, which the present leadership are doing their best to tell me they are not. And in any case, a vote for the LibDems (depending on constituency) is not a vote which helps Corbyn.
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
My prediction: you will vote Tory in the end ("with a heavy heart"). Anyone who is still even considering voting Tory despite the long list of valid reasons not to (especially any Remainer) is basically too loyal to the brand to not ultimately revert to type. (A similar argument applies to all the former Labour voters currently in the "don't know" column in polls - who will inevitably "come home" as the election hoves into view).
I have a friend in a similar position and she will NOT vote Tory in the end with a heavy heart. She has been pulling her hair out but for the first time in her life she is now adamant she won't vote Cons.
She's just not at all sure who (if anyone) she does vote for.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
It's a Metro gossip article from July. If anything it's Nadine that is currently spooked not Labour.
Let's wait for the manifesto - I suspect the stupid bits will have been removed before then but as I said watch for comment on Council Tax reform (it needs to be reformed but could also be about a lot more)..
Yes. As my earlier posts indicated, there are still a few of us around. Actually, highlighted by this good header by OGH, there is a significant number.
I performed my self/soul-searching recently and decided that any flavour of Corbyn would be worse than what the Conservatives are offering. I had said, when you and others were resigning from the Party, that I would wait even to resign to see what happened by October 31st. In case there might be another leadership election, or...
As it turned out, I was amazed that the Cons let Boris off so lightly given he did as you pointed out from the very beginning he would do, by failing to honour his do or die pledge. So no leadership election, but a deal. Pretty much the same as May's as we all agree. Throws NI under the bus and I do not diminish the importance of the unionist community there, but if the people of NI are happy, I am happy, plus nominally they get to choose.
And then we come to the real world. A world of Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson. Of course we are in febrile times and there is no reason why there shouldn't be swings of 30% plus constituency by constituency but the basic calculus is that it's Lab vs Cons. We can mess around at the edges with voting LD (and I respect very much those who are going to do so) but every time someone in Leadership of the Labour Party opens their mouth, it confirms me in my view that I will vote Conservative.
Unfortunately that will be a vote that endorses the extreme move to the right that the party has undertaken. I respect your view, but I will be voting LD and not rejoining the Conservatives unless they move back to being a sensible broad church, right of centre and economically sensible party.
On topic: Speaking as one of those Mike is talking about, I literally don't know. For the first time since 1964 (when I was a precocious 10 year old, who sent off for and carefully read the three main parties' manifestos), I don't know who to support. It's been the Conservatives every time since 1964, although obviously I couldn't actually vote until some years later, but now? Dunno.
If the election had been one where Boris had been standing on a Jan 31st No Deal as an option, then it would have been completely unambiguous: there was no way on earth I was going to vote for that, I'd definitely have voted LibDem.
Now that Boris seems to have belatedly come, or been forced, to his senses, it's less clear. I want to 'get Brexit done', for sure. But Boris has made, from my point of view, some spectacular errors since coming to his senses in late October. I will find it extremely hard, verging on impossible, to vote Tory now that the party has gone so bonkers that it doesn't have room for Ken Clarke, Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Amber Rudd, four politicians who epitomise exactly why I voted Tory in the first place. And I am extremely concerned by Boris repeating the same dumb mistake over an arbitrary date in respect of the extension of the transition: as Phil Hammond pointed out, what was the point of getting the Withdrawal Agreement negotiated to avoid No Deal, if you are then prepared to countenance No Deal months later? This is an absolute red line for me.
I really don't like the LibDems for multiple rea
I'm not particularly impressed by the 'vote Tory to keep Corbyn out' argument. Not letting the good be the enemy of the best is fine, indeed highly commendable. However, that does assume that the Tories are at least acceptable, which the present leadership are doing their best to tell me they are not. And in any case, a vote for the LibDems (depending on constituency) is not a vote which helps Corbyn.
I might not vote at all, but that goes against all my principles: I strongly dislike the idea of not making a decision. 'To govern is to choose', and by extension, to have a vote is to choose.
My prediction: you will vote Tory in the end ("with a heavy heart"). Anyone who is still even considering voting Tory despite the long list of valid reasons not to (especially any Remainer) is basically too loyal to the brand to not ultimately revert to type. (A similar argument applies to all the former Labour voters currently in the "don't know" column in polls - who will inevitably "come home" as the election hoves into view).
As one such Tory I agree with this. That said, Labour have given us a get out of jail card. Take Jezza and his ridiculous statist policies out of the equation and we would have *real* soul searching to do.
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
Yes. As my earlier posts indicated, there are still a few of us around. Actually, highlighted by this good header by OGH, there is a significant number.
I performed my self/soul-searching recently and decided that any flavour of Corbyn would be worse than what the Conservatives are offering. I had said, when you and others were resigning from the Party, that I would wait even to resign to see what happened by October 31st. In case there might be another leadership election, or...
As it turned out, I was amazed that the Cons let Boris off so lightly given he did as you pointed out from the very beginning he would do, by failing to honour his do or die pledge. So no leadership election, but a deal. Pretty much the same as May's as we all agree. Throws NI under the bus and I do not diminish the importance of the unionist community there, but if the people of NI are happy, I am happy, plus nominally they get to choose.
And then we come to the real world. A world of Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson. Of course we are in febrile times and there is no reason why there shouldn't be swings of 30% plus constituency by constituency but the basic calculus is that it's Lab vs Cons. We can mess around at the edges with voting LD (and I respect very much those who are going to do so) but every time someone in Leadership of the Labour Party opens their mouth, it confirms me in my view that I will vote Conservative.
Unfortunately that will be a vote that endorses the extreme move to the right that the party has undertaken. I respect your view, but I will be voting LD and not rejoining the Conservatives unless they move back to being a sensible broad church, right of centre and economically sensible party.
The Cons PPC is a friend and I will be making my views known to him.
30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.
The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.
So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.
I can only comment from a personal view, and anecdotally a few family and friends. I chickened out of voting LD last time, even though I was strongly tempted. However, the Tory party is now a very different beast from then, and very very different to the party that I used to be an activist for. I will be voting LD on this occasion, and I won't be changing my mind. I hope for another hung parliament, with both the main parties losing enough support for them both to consider more moderate approaches to politics.
A vote for the LDs is a vote against extremism.
On Brexit we have
BXP - no deal Con - deal Lab - different deal LD - revoke
I put it to you that a vote for the Lib Dems (or BXP) is a vote for extremists
Extremism in defense of libdemery is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.
If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
Voting LD does not let Corbyn in.
Corbyn can't win a majority having lost Scotland it's really more a question of how few seats they lose..
It's why I'm happy to vote Labour - by the time they have enough votes in Parliament to do anything Corbyn and co will have been neutralised by the SNP and Lib Dems..
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
Really? We all risk getting dementia when we're old, and in middle age we all risk having a dementia affected parent.
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
MarquessMark said: "they must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so."
So Lab are doing badly as revealed by polling So Cons doing badly as they are gaff-prone So LibDems are doing badly due to Swinson persona and Revoke policy
Someones gotta pick up some votes. The survival of the shittest.
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.
If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
Voting LD does not let Corbyn in.
By Swinsons logic the SNP don't need Indyref2. They just need an overall majority to leave the UK.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
Really? We all risk getting dementia when we're old, and in middle age we all risk having a dementia affected parent.
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
My family are not poshos and just getting on with their life
Labour would lose each and all of their votes if they put this in place
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
I admire your ability to post that with a straight face.
Head office getting in early I see. First quick action theyve taken.
Its good theres been actual apologies not fake apologies, though I understand why some dont bother - a lot of people demand further action even if people apologise.
Bridgen is an oaf, and represents the New Tory Party as it sadly now is. The apology isn't good enough, and neither is Rees-Mogg's. Rees-Mogg should resign.
I hope he doesn't resign, I think he's a real liability for the tories. He's got the same ugly attitudes and politics as Johnson but more people see it, as he lacks Johnson's obscuring "humour".
I assume you don’t want him to resign because he is a liability to the tories.
Foxy said: "I am a fiscally dry as dust Orange Booker myself."
There is, of course, The Liberal Party as an alternative to the LibDems. They only stand in a few constituencies though. Looking at both parties` policies I prefer The Liberal Party in many ways. At least they make mention to JS Mill in a few places! I do worry about the Lib Dems veering leftwards at the moment - at times becoming unstuck from liberalism itself.
Yes. As my earlier posts indicated, there are still a few of us around. Actually, highlighted by this good header by OGH, there is a significant number.
I performed my self/soul-searching recently and decided that any flavour of Corbyn would be worse than what the Conservatives are offering. I had said, when you and others were resigning from the Party, that I would wait even to resign to see what happened by October 31st. In case there might be another leadership election, or...
As it turned out, I was amazed that the Cons let Boris off so lightly given he did as you pointed out from the very beginning he would do, by failing to honour his do or die pledge. So no leadership election, but a deal. Pretty much the same as May's as we all agree. Throws NI under the bus and I do not diminish the importance of the unionist community there, but if the people of NI are happy, I am happy, plus nominally they get to choose.
And then we come to the real world. A world of Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson. Of course we are in febrile times and there is no reason why there shouldn't be swings of 30% plus constituency by constituency but the basic calculus is that it's Lab vs Cons. We can mess around at the edges with voting LD (and I respect very much those who are going to do so) but every time someone in Leadership of the Labour Party opens their mouth, it confirms me in my view that I will vote Conservative.
The thread header talks about "those who have voted Conservative in the past"...
There is perhaps a distinction to be made between moderate, but nonetheless almost reflexive Conservative voters like Richard (and perhaps yourself ?), and those who have voted Conservative before, but do not have that visceral attachment to 'conservatism' ?
The former category might tip either way - as you and Richard demonstrate - but the latter is far less likely to vote Johnson for fear of Corbyn.
Re: Angela Smith`s letter to the Independent Parliamentary Authority.
She has realised that due to switching seats she will not be eligible for more taxpayer bunce should she fail to be re-elected. In her letter she complains that she will lose out by £22,000 tax free plus two months` pay.
She has been an MP for over 14 years (current earnings £80, 000 per annum plus plus (with self employed advantages) and employed her husband as her assistant (at £40,000 per annum) yet in her letter she says “I will not be able to meet my mortgage payments and many other bills I am liable for”). She`s also crap at money management then!
She was also embroiled in the expenses scandal - at one point voting to keep MP expenses secret.
I hope that the other candidates in her new constituency are making merry over this. A gift to Graham Brady surely?
She really said that?!
She also said:
"Given I had no option but to move to another party and then no option but to move to a vacant candidacy, I honestly consider I am being discriminated against."
The sheer brass neck is unbelievable.
Yes this is poor from Angela Smith. It was entirely her choice to change party and entirely her choice therefore to stand in a different seat. Bad look for the party too so I'm surprised they are letting her do it.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
You still know that when it's down to just both of them, they will still pick a fight and take mutually contradictory positions.
I mean, those who think the Tories have gone extreme - it's a fight about jam first or cream first, compared to the gulags of the left......
Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
In themselves perhaps not, but a vote for the LibDems is a vote for a hung parliament, and the one we've just had has not exactly been a triumph of principled, sensible decision-making, on Brexit or on anything else.
Jo has taken your advice about her hair. Shorter now and with a soft wave.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
I admire your ability to post that with a straight face.
Absolutely. Except, my support is on a knife edge and defined by the reality of the choice facing me rather than blind loyalty to the Conservatives, which is what Lab is on the way to ending up with. I would imagine that there are far more people such as me (waverers, needing some assurances) than blind followers of Corbyn.
I go into this election eyes wide open. Sure, I can go LDs, whose revoke policy I am forced to remind myself is absolutely democratic because it will have been voted for by the British public at the GE (or not), but which will actually in all likelihood enable the thing I have identified as being a greater threat than the current flavour of the Conservative Party. Or I can vote Green which frankly is the same as not voting.
So your LD or Green is fine (the latter is a waste of time, obvs). But the reality is that it will likely enable one of the things you don't want - ie Lab or Con (I don't know what your constituency is). Hiding behind the sofa isn't an option.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
Really? We all risk getting dementia when we're old, and in middle age we all risk having a dementia affected parent.
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
My family are not poshos and just getting on with their life
Labour would lose each and all of their votes if they put this in place
How many might otherwise have voted Labour, Big_G ? (A genuine rather than rhetorical question.)
Really? We all risk getting dementia when we're old, and in middle age we all risk having a dementia affected parent.
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
The policy (if it appears) is not to cut the IHT threshold. It is to abolish IHT and switch the tax to the recipient as income.
More generally, Boris Johnson is trashing everything about the Conservative party (with the full backing of the zealots he leads) that these Conservatives value: respect for law; sound money; sceptical conservatism.
His policy is a No Deal exit at the end of the transition period in December 2020, unless you believe that he can get an FTA agreed with the EU and implemented before then.
That is what the likes of @DavidL and other Tories voting for Johnson are voting for. It is the same policy as that of the ERG and all the others who wanted a departure on 31/10, deal or no deal, just with the date changed.
Quite why falling off a cliff into third country status is in the best interests of those people who fear chaos with Corbyn is unclear to me. It’s another form of chaos, though it has this to be said for it: all those companies and individuals who don’t what this hassle have a year to make plans to avoid it.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
I admire your ability to post that with a straight face.
Absolutely. Except, my support is on a knife edge and defined by the reality of the choice facing me rather than blind loyalty to the Conservatives, which is what Lab is on the way to ending up with. I would imagine that there are far more people such as me (waverers, needing some assurances) than blind followers of Corbyn.
I go into this election eyes wide open. Sure, I can go LDs, whose revoke policy I am forced to remind myself is absolutely democratic because it will have been voted for by the British public at the GE (or not), but which will actually in all likelihood enable the thing I have identified as being a greater threat than the current flavour of the Conservative Party. Or I can vote Green which frankly is the same as not voting.
So your LD or Green is fine (the latter is a waste of time, obvs). But the reality is that it will likely enable one of the things you don't want - ie Lab or Con (I don't know what your constituency is). Hiding behind the sofa isn't an option.
You don't think there will still be a large number of Labour voters voicing very similar thoughts ? Despite Corbyn's best efforts ?
In themselves perhaps not, but a vote for the LibDems is a vote for a hung parliament, and the one we've just had has not exactly been a triumph of principled, sensible decision-making, on Brexit or on anything else.
Jo has taken your advice about her hair. Shorter now and with a soft wave.
You must surely reciprocate by voting Lib Dem.
I know a few Lib Dems have been defensive about her implied sexism when it comes to critique of her voice and delivery but if you go on BBC News on facebook it seems most of the critical comments about Swinson are from women. Her speech yesterday was rather unnatural and at times unnerving, but maybe the party message will cut through enough for people to ignore this.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
Really? We all risk getting dementia when we're old, and in middle age we all risk having a dementia affected parent.
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
My family are not poshos and just getting on with their life
Labour would lose each and all of their votes if they put this in place
How many might otherwise have voted Labour, Big_G ? (A genuine rather than rhetorical question.)
My family includes their spouses/partners and their parents and family
In truth some may well have considered some part of Corbyns offer but attack their propects of receiving part or all of their family's legacy it just bad politics
Yes. As my earlier posts indicated, there are still a few of us around. Actually, highlighted by this good header by OGH, there is a significant number.
I performed my self/soul-searching recently and decided that any flavour of Corbyn would be worse than what the Conservatives are offering. I had said, when you and others were resigning from the Party, that I would wait even to resign to see what happened by October 31st. In case there might be another leadership election, or...
As it turned out, I was amazed that the Cons let Boris off so lightly given he did as you pointed out from the very beginning he would do, by failing to honour his do or die pledge. So no leadership election, but a deal. Pretty much the same as May's as we all agree. Throws NI under the bus and I do not diminish the importance of the unionist community there, but if the people of NI are happy, I am happy, plus nominally they get to choose.
And then we come to the real world. A world of Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson. Of course we are in febrile times and there is no reason why there shouldn't be swings of 30% plus constituency by constituency but the basic calculus is that it's Lab vs Cons. We can mess around at the edges with voting LD (and I respect very much those who are going to do so) but every time someone in Leadership of the Labour Party opens their mouth, it confirms me in my view that I will vote Conservative.
The thread header talks about "those who have voted Conservative in the past"...
There is perhaps a distinction to be made between moderate, but nonetheless almost reflexive Conservative voters like Richard (and perhaps yourself ?), and those who have voted Conservative before, but do not have that visceral attachment to 'conservatism' ?
The former category might tip either way - as you and Richard demonstrate - but the latter is far less likely to vote Johnson for fear of Corbyn.
That is true. Shall we call them pragmatists? In which case they might take a long hard look at the options on offer and indeed perhaps vote LD. But pragmatically? They are very likely to end up with Lab or Cons and that is the decision they must make. If they are politically involved enough and don't want to go off to buy a "Don't vote it only encourages them" t-shirt.
Key for Dems here was not only winning the two big cities by a huge increased margins and flipping g surburbn counties but also holding their own in rural counties. Beashear even won/flipped a few coal counties
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
If the do confirm it, they can wave goodbye to The Aspirationals - and it signals they are going for a core vote, class war campaign. They must be REALLY spooked by internal polling if so.
But think how unquestioning and loyal the remaining core will be.
Tories or Labour ?
This is the point @AlastairMeeks was making to me. Let's look at 1) domestic policies; and 2) Brexit.
On 1) I much prefer the Tories' policies, compared with those of Labour. On 2) well what exactly do Labour want? I'm not sure. We know Jezza is an unreconstructed Leaver, but we also know that the Lab Brexit plan is ludicrous, while on the Cons side we have a deal and a basis to move forward. That is fine for me.
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
Really? We all risk getting dementia when we're old, and in middle age we all risk having a dementia affected parent.
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
My family are not poshos and just getting on with their life
Labour would lose each and all of their votes if they put this in place
I love the way you consistently speak on behalf of other people's voting intentions without irony.
One Nation Tories are abandoning the former Conservative and Unionist Party as it becomes the party of Bridgen, Francois, Rees Mogg, Patel and Raab. Yep, they will win this coming election thanks to Mr Corbyn, but beyond that what do they have? There is no talent anywhere to be seen, just dull, leaden, hard right, English nationalist, empathy-free, automatons. Those sitting next to and behind Johnson in the next parliament will tell the story of what the Tories now are. The post-December future looks extremely bleak for them - and for the country.
Comments
This suggests that Trump is to some extent an exception, and may not be ushering in an era where objectivity dies completely.
Unfortunately, it looks like Johnson is also an exception, and we don't have the consolation of a term limit.
Revoke without a referendum is absolutely an extreme position.
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
Elsewhere, it's highly unlikely there are any Tory held seats where currently Labour (in second place at the last election) have any chance of winning the seat. Given that is the case voting Lib Dem may not result in the Tories losing the seat but it may consolidate the Lib Dems as the party most likely to beat the Tories in a subsequent election.
If she won a referendum by 52% to 48% supported by numerous bot-factories in Brussels, and then tried to shove the nation into joining the Euro with full Euro-federalism, then that might be extreme. But she isn't ,so you are talking, how should I put in parlance you might relate to, balderdash!
I am a fiscally dry as dust Orange Booker myself.
On the other hand, bearing in mind the likelihood of no deal with a Johnson government I think it's clear that a Lib Dem vote is your least worst option. They might be trying to do a lot to put you off from voting for them, but do they really stack up that bad compared to Johnson and Corbyn?
As I said I dont know why people get so worked up other than the fear that extreme means bad.
Yes. As my earlier posts indicated, there are still a few of us around. Actually, highlighted by this good header by OGH, there is a significant number.
I performed my self/soul-searching recently and decided that any flavour of Corbyn would be worse than what the Conservatives are offering. I had said, when you and others were resigning from the Party, that I would wait even to resign to see what happened by October 31st. In case there might be another leadership election, or...
As it turned out, I was amazed that the Cons let Boris off so lightly given he did as you pointed out from the very beginning he would do, by failing to honour his do or die pledge. So no leadership election, but a deal. Pretty much the same as May's as we all agree. Throws NI under the bus and I do not diminish the importance of the unionist community there, but if the people of NI are happy, I am happy, plus nominally they get to choose.
And then we come to the real world. A world of Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson. Of course we are in febrile times and there is no reason why there shouldn't be swings of 30% plus constituency by constituency but the basic calculus is that it's Lab vs Cons. We can mess around at the edges with voting LD (and I respect very much those who are going to do so) but every time someone in Leadership of the Labour Party opens their mouth, it confirms me in my view that I will vote Conservative.
https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1191920338424213504?s=20
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1192006836792315905
https://twitter.com/singharj/status/1192006707649679360
https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/596972985027801089?s=20
You need to wait the announcement but if Corbyn/McDonnell confirm this it is beyond stupid and is a 'dementia tax' moment
And it is typical of the kind of conservative (unfortunately the majority nowadays it seems, at least in parliament) who believes that rich people like him are rich because they deserve to be rich, and poor people are poor because they deserve to be poor.
PS. You'd be surprised how much you can transport with a Daihatsu Copen.
Laura Kuenssberg
Labour NEC meeting this morning has tricky agenda I hear too - discussing Chris Williamson who some are lobbying to let stand, Keith Vaz who a member of NEC tells me isn’t going without a fight - nerves too about Salma Yaqoob and Emma Lewell Buck
Crucially, he seems impervious to criticism, ridicule or scandal. The Supreme Court judgment was brutal and should have ended his tenure. You can lay some of the blame for its failure to do so at the Opposition, but I believe it's largely that nothing bad sticks to him.
Then in 18 months time they can introduce a land value tax and viola the job is done.
Anyone who is still even considering voting Tory despite the long list of valid reasons not to (especially any Remainer) is basically too loyal to the brand to not ultimately revert to type.
(A similar argument applies to all the former Labour voters currently in the "don't know" column in polls - who will inevitably "come home" as the election hoves into view).
She's just not at all sure who (if anyone) she does vote for.
Let's wait for the manifesto - I suspect the stupid bits will have been removed before then but as I said watch for comment on Council Tax reform (it needs to be reformed but could also be about a lot more)..
It says to all the people who voted in the referendum because they thought it mattered that their views are utterly irrelevant and that they should run along and let Jo and the other grown ups take care of things.If Jo Swinson wins a majority then Revoke will be the Will Of The People, and it would be undemocratic of you to protest. Is that how this thing works?
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
Voting LD does not let Corbyn in.
Haven't we?
Just those of us with soft-tops then....
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1192003392677261312
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1191888444890472448?s=19
As someone nearly said.
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
Voting LD does not let Corbyn in.
Corbyn can't win a majority having lost Scotland it's really more a question of how few seats they lose..
It's why I'm happy to vote Labour - by the time they have enough votes in Parliament to do anything Corbyn and co will have been neutralised by the SNP and Lib Dems..
The delusion that a significant number of voters will be affected by the IHT threshold dropping to £125k merely shows how isolated from the real world are poshos like Dorries ( there's nothing special about having gone to a state school, and back in Liverpool, an MP's salary looks astronomically high) and people well-heeled enough to bet on politics as a hobby.
So Lab are doing badly as revealed by polling
So Cons doing badly as they are gaff-prone
So LibDems are doing badly due to Swinson persona and Revoke policy
Someones gotta pick up some votes. The survival of the shittest.
Clearly IF the Liberals are either victorious or hold enough of a sword of damocles over the head of PM Corbyn to achieve a Parliamentary vote to revoke then that would be democratic. However I have just seen a herd of pink pigs fly across the Easter Ross sky as I type this. As the Liberals have refused to accept the majority decision in the EU referendum with a majority of 1.4 million votes but were happy to accept IndyRef1 in 2014 and more still the Welsh Assembly referendum where the majority was 6,000, I can no longer bring myself to use the word "Democrats" after the first word in their party name! Frankly any Tory remain voters who switch to the Liberals and enable Corbyn to enter No 10 deserve the high taxation which will make their lives miserable and reduce their chances of taking 3 foreign holidays a year.
Voting LD does not let Corbyn in.
By Swinsons logic the SNP don't need Indyref2.
They just need an overall majority to leave the UK.
Or use a bike. This is a dippy-doodah artisan mattress being delivered.
Labour would lose each and all of their votes if they put this in place
I assume you don’t want him to resign because he is a liability to the tories.
There is, of course, The Liberal Party as an alternative to the LibDems. They only stand in a few constituencies though. Looking at both parties` policies I prefer The Liberal Party in many ways. At least they make mention to JS Mill in a few places! I do worry about the Lib Dems veering leftwards at the moment - at times becoming unstuck from liberalism itself.
BMW (and Jag) Estates are not much cop; the 5 series will not even take a metric housedoor flat inside. Mercedes or Skoda.
There is perhaps a distinction to be made between moderate, but nonetheless almost reflexive Conservative voters like Richard (and perhaps yourself ?), and those who have voted Conservative before, but do not have that visceral attachment to 'conservatism' ?
The former category might tip either way - as you and Richard demonstrate - but the latter is far less likely to vote Johnson for fear of Corbyn.
I mean, those who think the Tories have gone extreme - it's a fight about jam first or cream first, compared to the gulags of the left......
Lock him up ?
No matter how GOP spin this, it is bad for them.
You must surely reciprocate by voting Lib Dem.
I go into this election eyes wide open. Sure, I can go LDs, whose revoke policy I am forced to remind myself is absolutely democratic because it will have been voted for by the British public at the GE (or not), but which will actually in all likelihood enable the thing I have identified as being a greater threat than the current flavour of the Conservative Party. Or I can vote Green which frankly is the same as not voting.
So your LD or Green is fine (the latter is a waste of time, obvs). But the reality is that it will likely enable one of the things you don't want - ie Lab or Con (I don't know what your constituency is). Hiding behind the sofa isn't an option.
(A genuine rather than rhetorical question.)
That is what the likes of @DavidL and other Tories voting for Johnson are voting for. It is the same policy as that of the ERG and all the others who wanted a departure on 31/10, deal or no deal, just with the date changed.
Quite why falling off a cliff into third country status is in the best interests of those people who fear chaos with Corbyn is unclear to me. It’s another form of chaos, though it has this to be said for it: all those companies and individuals who don’t what this hassle have a year to make plans to avoid it.
Despite Corbyn's best efforts ?
In truth some may well have considered some part of Corbyns offer but attack their propects of receiving part or all of their family's legacy it just bad politics
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1192019280684109825?s=20
Lib Dems Unveil First Battle Bus of the Election https://t.co/9R7vASqahT https://t.co/6YxD0c6jg1
On 1) I much prefer the Tories' policies, compared with those of Labour. On 2) well what exactly do Labour want? I'm not sure. We know Jezza is an unreconstructed Leaver, but we also know that the Lab Brexit plan is ludicrous, while on the Cons side we have a deal and a basis to move forward. That is fine for me.