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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A key GE19 battleground: The GE2017 Tories who voted Remain

One sizeable group of the electorate who could make a difference on December 12th are those who have voted Conservative in the past who at the referendum went for remain. It’s estimated that this segment accounted for more than a quarter of the Conservative vote at the last general election.

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asjohnstone

"What is very noticeable about Jo Swinson is the ongoing repetition of the line that she would never back Corbyn for Prime Minister because he is unfit for the office."

Yeah, that's fine but she needs to be asked if there is anyone in labour leadership she would back.

Saying no to Corbyn, but enabling Corbynism by other means is duplicitous

NorthCadboll

Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.

If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.

Nigelb

asjohnstone said:

"What is very noticeable about Jo Swinson is the ongoing repetition of the line that she would never back Corbyn for Prime Minister because he is unfit for the office."

Yeah, that's fine but she needs to be asked if there is anyone in labour leadership she would back.

Saying no to Corbyn, but enabling Corbynism by other means is duplicitous

Don’t be silly.

AlastairMeeks

One question I would like answered is how evenly distributed this group is geographically.

felix

Nigelb said:

asjohnstone said:

"What is very noticeable about Jo Swinson is the ongoing repetition of the line that she would never back Corbyn for Prime Minister because he is unfit for the office."

Yeah, that's fine but she needs to be asked if there is anyone in labour leadership she would back.

Saying no to Corbyn, but enabling Corbynism by other means is duplicitous

Don’t be silly.

Not silly at all. I may lend the LD my vote in Lewisham but solely to defeat the incumbent Labour MP. I think the 'Revoke Brexit' idea is madness at worst and confusing at best. I think she was a bad choice as their leader and the fact that they already seem to be shedding support to both main parties suggests the tone and messaging is wrong. The 'I'm a woman line re the debates' is deeply patronising and will do nothing to encourage otherwise sympathetic people to vote for the party

Nigelb

NorthCadboll said:

Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.

If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.

I see you’ve adopted the Johnson style in talking about women.

Nigelb

AlastairMeeks said:

One question I would like answered is how evenly distributed this group is geographically.

An interesting question, but probably not polled.
Mike writes that Opinium ‘regularly provides a breakdown’ - has there been much change in the figures over time ?

OldKingCole

No 'Will not vote' sector?'

Gardenwalker

Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.

It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.

MarqueeMark

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those Remainers who have a history of having voted Conservative, maybe with a break to vote once or twice for Blair - by definition the over 40s - I'm finding a marked reluctance to want to leave the Conservatives and commit to another Party.

That reluctance might be down to the disatisfaction with the choices nationally on offer to a naturally-inclined Conservative. These voters are naturally cautious and suspicious of change - as demonstrated by their aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are seen by these voters as offering nothing other than the twin impossibilities of Revoke and Prime Minister Swinson. Corbyn's anti-semitic, Marxist Labour is beyond the pale as an option. Brexit Party is a no. Green? Will they even have a candidate in Totnes?

The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year? (Incidentally, a concern shared by many natural LibDems and tactical-voting inclined Labour supporters you chat to.)

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

MarqueeMark

OldKingCole said:

No 'Will not vote' sector?'

Those uncertain former Tories who I talk to generally still want to vote.

AlastairMeeks

https://twitter.com/abridgen/status/1191961820204032005?s=21

AlastairMeeks

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those Remainers who have a history of having voted Conservative, maybe with a break to vote once or twice for Blair - by definition the over 40s - I'm finding a marked reluctance to want to leave the Conservatives and commit to another Party.

That reluctance might be down to the disatisfaction with the choices nationally on offer to a naturally-inclined Conservative. These voters are naturally cautious and suspicious of change - as demonstrated by their aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are seen by these voters as offering nothing other than the twin impossibilities of Revoke and Prime Minister Swinson. Corbyn's anti-semitic, Marxist Labour is beyond the pale as an option. Brexit Party is a no. Green? Will they even have a candidate in Totnes?

The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year? (Incidentally, a concern shared by many natural LibDems and tactical-voting inclined Labour supporters you chat to.)

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

IanB2

It is a segment of the electorate over-represented on PB, so we do at least have some anecdotes to work on.

AlastairMeeks

More generally, Boris Johnson is trashing everything about the Conservative party (with the full backing of the zealots he leads) that these Conservatives value: respect for law; sound money; sceptical conservatism.

MarqueeMark

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those Remainers who have a history of having voted Conservative, maybe with a break to vote once or twice for Blair - by definition the over 40s - I'm finding a marked reluctance to want to leave the Conservatives and commit to another Party.

That reluctance might be down to the disatisfaction with the choices nationally on offer to a naturally-inclined Conservative. These voters are naturally cautious and suspicious of change - as demonstrated by their aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are seen by these voters as offering nothing other than the twin impossibilities of Revoke and Prime Minister Swinson. Corbyn's anti-semitic, Marxist Labour is beyond the pale as an option. Brexit Party is a no. Green? Will they even have a candidate in Totnes?

The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year? (Incidentally, a concern shared by many natural LibDems and tactical-voting inclined Labour supporters you chat to.)

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

DavidL

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

AlastairMeeks

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those Remainers who have a history of having voted Conservative, maybe with a break to vote once or twice for Blair - by definition the over 40s - I'm finding a marked reluctance to want to leave the Conservatives and commit to another Party.

That reluctance might be down to the disatisfaction with the choices nationally on offer to a naturally-inclined Conservative. These voters are naturally cautious and suspicious of change - as demonstrated by their aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are seen by these voters as offering nothing other than the twin impossibilities of Revoke and Prime Minister Swinson. Corbyn's anti-semitic, Marxist Labour is beyond the pale as an option. Brexit Party is a no. Green? Will they even have a candidate in Totnes?

The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year? (Incidentally, a concern shared by many natural LibDems and tactical-voting inclined Labour supporters you chat to.)

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

AlastairMeeks

Andrew Bridgen’s morning after:

https://twitter.com/abridgen/status/1191961820204032005?s=21

Roger

Gardenwalker said:

Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.

It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.

'Campaign' have just run an article on the 'Led By Donkeys' poster campaign. I didn't realise it was conceived by a group of creatives who got the work crowd funded. Their first poster was headlined 'They Say 96% of the Creative Industry Support Remain So Where The Fuck Were You?' They've now developed a simple formula and the posters are coming thick and fast.

This election was sudden and I doubt the Lib Dems have had time to sort out a direction yet but within the next week or so we should discover who they've appointed what their messaging will be and how they intend to present it. One thing for sure they'll have no shortage of creative help.

Jonathan

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

IanB2

Conservative candidates are apparently being told not to sign any pledges on the environment or health service, but are allowed to give their backing to people who enjoy shooting birds and animals for fun.

MarqueeMark

AlastairMeeks said:

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

Bring it up...better out than in.....

You see, my insights shared here are based on talking to lots of voters.

In a seat that voted Remain.

Yours?

Gardenwalker

Roger said:

Gardenwalker said:

Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.

It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.

'Campaign' have just run an article on the 'Led By Donkeys' poster campaign. I didn't realise it was conceived by a group of creatives who got the work crowd funded. Their first poster was headlined 'They Say 96% of the Creative Industry Support Remain So Where The Fuck Were You!' They've now developed a simple formula and the posters are coming thick and fast.

This election was sudden and I doubt the Lib Dems have had time to sort out a direction yet but within the next week or so we should discover who they've appointed and what their messaging will be and how they intend to present it. One thing for sure they'll have no shortage of creative help.

The Led by Donkeys stuff is fine but limited in reach and effect.
Adam and Eve - and others - worked on the Remain campaign but ultimately it underwhelmed.

There’s so substitute for clear positioning from the top.

Let’s see. Perhaps it is early days.

DavidL

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

AlastairMeeks

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

Bring it up...better out than in.....

You see, my insights shared here are based on talking to lots of voters.

In a seat that voted Remain.

Yours?

The ability to read.

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

Remember, you actually want Brexit. There isn’t a single thing this government is doing that the group in question wants.

Gardenwalker

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

This doesn’t explain why you’re not voting Lib Dem given, as you say, the distinct lack of Toryism on offer from the Tories.

Fysics_Teacher

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Foxy

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

Remainer Tories are not often located in the inner cities and university towns held by Labour. They are substantially in the Shires and suburbs where the Lib Dems are the alternative to the Brexiteers. The number of Tory to LD defectors makes the LDs more palatable, as well as the Lab defectors driven out by Corbyn's antisemitism.

It is not just Jo that would refuse to back Corbyn and his acolytes but also those who have defected from either party. Neither are they going to back a Brexiteer. LDs are poised to pick up the None of the Above vote, and not just from former Tories.

Jonathan

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

NorthCadboll

Nigelb said:

NorthCadboll said:

Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.

If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.

I see you’ve adopted the Johnson style in talking about women.

Indeed no I am far less polite about the men I hold in low esteem as politicians!

DavidL

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

This doesn’t explain why you’re not voting Lib Dem given, as you say, the distinct lack of Toryism on offer from the Tories.

Voting Lib Dem is an indulgence. It might let Corbyn in. It threatens a continuation of the lack of governance we have suffered since 2017. We need to get Brexit done but in a sensible way with good relations with the EU and clear and simple terms of trade. Revoke is just a bizarre policy. There are lots of reasons, not just for me but for this group to rationalise their choice.

CarlottaVance

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1191968943029784576?s=20

Fysics_Teacher

Jonathan said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

I see your point. Would describing him as a Stalinist have been better?

Also: how many people out there will know what a kulak was?

TOPPING

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those Remainers who have a history of having voted Conservative, maybe with a break to vote once or twice for Blair - by definition the over 40s - I'm finding a marked reluctance to want to leave the Conservatives and commit to another Party.

That reluctance might be down to the disatisfaction with the choices nationally on offer to a naturally-inclined Conservative. These voters are naturally cautious and suspicious of change - as demonstrated by their aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are seen by these voters as offering nothing other than the twin impossibilities of Revoke and Prime Minister Swinson. Corbyn's anti-semitic, Marxist Labour is beyond the pale as an option. Brexit Party is a no. Green? Will they even have a candidate in Totnes?

The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year? (Incidentally, a concern shared by many natural LibDems and tactical-voting inclined Labour supporters you chat to.)

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

Very good post. We still need some warm, sensible assurances on Brexit though. And a counterbalance to some of the extremists.

The thought of a Cummings/Bridgen Conservative Party driving us all off a cliff is a severe, perhaps overwhelming disincentive.

DavidL

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

Remember, you actually want Brexit. There isn’t a single thing this government is doing that the group in question wants.

What I think that they want is a government that can govern. I have sympathy with the idea that you have expressed before that it is about time our politicians grew up and learned how to work coalitions and consensus but the fact is the current generation are absolutely crap at it. We have not had a government worthy of the name since 2017, arguably since 2015 given the level of internal opposition Cameron faced. Enough.

IanB2

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

I see your point. Would describing him as a Stalinist have been better?

Bozo is very good at finding legs for any story. Indeed it’s probably his core competence. But there’s a good chance he’ll find three legs for the wrong story before this campaign is done.

AlastairMeeks

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1191968943029784576?s=20

I doubt this is doing the Conservatives any significant harm at all. The crassness of the Tory right is priced in and it’s eating up airtime for other parties to get their messages through.

Jonathan

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

I see your point. Would describing him as a Stalinist have been better?

Nope. No politician should go near anywhere near this stuff. The last thing we need is more fuel on the fire of social media.

OblitusSumMe

Nigelb said:

AlastairMeeks said:

One question I would like answered is how evenly distributed this group is geographically.

An interesting question, but probably not polled.
Mike writes that Opinium ‘regularly provides a breakdown’ - has there been much change in the figures over time ?

I looked a little bit at the YouGov figures for 2017 Conservative voters who switched to the Lib Dems (which is probably closely aligned to this group) and the proportion doing so roughly doubled at the time Johnson became leader, but has otherwise been stable - there didn't seem to be any additional movement when the 21 lost the whip, or when Johnson reached his deal.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Johnstone, I saw a tiny bit of her answering press questions yesterday, and one reply seems relevant to the point you raise.

Swinson was asked why the Lib Dems wouldn't stand aside (on a Remain basis) for Remain-type Labour MPs and she answered that Labour was not 'trustworthy' (or words to that effect) on the subject and implied that it wasn't only Corbyn but a lot of the frontbench to blame. Can't recall her precise words but the implication was that Labour as a whole had changed.

Of course, maybe she would go into coalition with someone like Cooper, but it sounded like a rejection of Corbynism as much as Corbyn.

TOPPING

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Roger

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Johnson's Tories seem to have airbrushed the Cameron years and reassembled as the nasty party. Very good news for the opposition particularly the Lib Dems if they can organise themselves and start speaking with one voice.

AlastairMeeks

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

The current Conservative party is in no meaningful way conservative. It is reckless and has set itself in opposition to order, good governance and the rule of law. So what’s the appeal of it to you?

Jonathan

Roger said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Johnson's Tories seem to have airbrushed the Cameron years and reassembled as the nasty party. Very good news for the opposition particularly the Lib Dems if they can organise themselves and start speaking with one voice.

Boris is entirely cynical. He benefits from polarising the debate and creating chaos. If people are shouting at each other he avoids scrutiny and analysis.

Foxy

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

nichomar

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

This doesn’t explain why you’re not voting Lib Dem given, as you say, the distinct lack of Toryism on offer from the Tories.

I do find David the most reasoned of our regular posting tories and is not a shouty cheerleader for the cause. He may eventually come round but if he wants to leave the EU you can’t blame him.

TOPPING

AlastairMeeks said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

The current Conservative party is in no meaningful way conservative. It is reckless and has set itself in opposition to order, good governance and the rule of law. So what’s the appeal of it to you?

It is on the spectrum of Conservative. The party is still, just, bigger than its current constituents. And Jeremy Corbyn. That is unconscionable.

Give me another Labour leader and outlook and we have a discussion.

Foxy

nichomar said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Just as the biggest driver for Labour voters is to keep the distorted parody of the evil Tory out so the biggest driver for at least this group of Tories is to keep the thick, anti-Semitic and economically illiterate Corbyn out of office. They are not going to be enthusiasts for Boris or his Brexit policy but the alternative will drive them to the polls. I will be very surprised if this group does not consolidate for the Tories over the election campaign and many conclude that voting Lib Dem is just self indulgent when facing such a threat, even if they are sympathetic to their position on Brexit.

Boris is lucky in his opponent and it is key to his election strategy that he exploits that to the full. No wonder he jumped at a head to head with Corbyn. That's exactly the way that he wants his own supporters to be thinking.

Well that’s at least more realistic than the absurd idea that @MarqueeMark has that these are people yearning to vote for the Johnson prospectus of government. But it rather assumes that Jeremy Corbyn looks a realistic prospect for Downing Street. If he doesn’t, these people have no reason at all to vote for the Conservatives and many reasons to look to place restraints on the manner of government of what is a wild and unprincipled government that has already seriously threatened Britain’s democracy.

I think that after 2017 it will not be difficult to sell the idea that there is a real risk of Corbyn being elected, possibly with a coalition of chaos to add piquancy to the brew.

For me this doesn't look a particularly Conservative government. Although Hammond was dull and unimaginative he could at least be relied upon to watch the pennies. Javid and Boris seem profligate and undisciplined. The conduct of Boris over the prorogation was deeply unconservative and alarmingly casual about constitutional propriety. I get this group because I frankly share a lot of their concerns but I will (pointlessly in Dundee West) be voting Tory. I think that the vast bulk of them will do the same.

This doesn’t explain why you’re not voting Lib Dem given, as you say, the distinct lack of Toryism on offer from the Tories.

I do find David the most reasoned of our regular posting tories and is not a shouty cheerleader for the cause. He may eventually come round but if he wants to leave the EU you can’t blame him.

It may be the last UK GE that he votes in. After that Indy Scotland, so let him have his solace.

Roger

Gardenwalker said:

Roger said:

Gardenwalker said:

Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.

It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.

'Campaign' have just run an article on the 'Led By Donkeys' poster campaign. I didn't realise it was conceived by a group of creatives who got the work crowd funded. Their first poster was headlined 'They Say 96% of the Creative Industry Support Remain So Where The Fuck Were You!' They've now developed a simple formula and the posters are coming thick and fast.

This election was sudden and I doubt the Lib Dems have had time to sort out a direction yet but within the next week or so we should discover who they've appointed and what their messaging will be and how they intend to present it. One thing for sure they'll have no shortage of creative help.

The Led by Donkeys stuff is fine but limited in reach and effect.
Adam and Eve - and others - worked on the Remain campaign but ultimately it underwhelmed.

There’s so substitute for clear positioning from the top.

Let’s see. Perhaps it is early days.

Adam and Eve had their hands tied. If you've ever worked for the COI you'll know why.

MarqueeMark

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

Bring it up...better out than in.....

You see, my insights shared here are based on talking to lots of voters.

In a seat that voted Remain.

Yours?

The ability to read.

Looking at words does not require comprehension....

DavidL

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

ydoethur

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

I see your point. Would describing him as a Stalinist have been better?

Also: how many people out there will know what a kulak was?

Probably none. It’s a fist.

(Yes, yes, I know it was also a slang term for a rich peasant.)

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

I’m taken by the way that you think an unfettered Boris Johnson is acceptable.

AlastairMeeks

ydoethur said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

I see your point. Would describing him as a Stalinist have been better?

Also: how many people out there will know what a kulak was?

Probably none. It’s a fist.

(Yes, yes, I know it was also a slang term for a rich peasant.)

https://twitter.com/thhamilton/status/1191842136112672770?s=21

ydoethur

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Ratters

AlastairMeeks said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1191968943029784576?s=20

I doubt this is doing the Conservatives any significant harm at all. The crassness of the Tory right is priced in and it’s eating up airtime for other parties to get their messages through.

I can see it putting off the working class vote that is considering voting Tory to get Brexit done. It's a reminder of why they haven't voted Conservative in the past - out of touch with normal people.

ydoethur

AlastairMeeks said:

ydoethur said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Where did he do that?

Front page of today’s telegraph.

I see your point. Would describing him as a Stalinist have been better?

Also: how many people out there will know what a kulak was?

Probably none. It’s a fist.

(Yes, yes, I know it was also a slang term for a rich peasant.)

https://twitter.com/thhamilton/status/1191842136112672770?s=21

I’m assuming that’s a parody.

If not, then it’s too many donkeys rather than too many cows that are the problem in Somerset NE.

Dura_Ace

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those Remainers who have a history of having voted Conservative, maybe with a break to vote once or twice for Blair - by definition the over 40s - I'm finding a marked reluctance to want to leave the Conservatives and commit to another Party.

That reluctance might be down to the disatisfaction with the choices nationally on offer to a naturally-inclined Conservative. These voters are naturally cautious and suspicious of change - as demonstrated by their aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are seen by these voters as offering nothing other than the twin impossibilities of Revoke and Prime Minister Swinson. Corbyn's anti-semitic, Marxist Labour is beyond the pale as an option. Brexit Party is a no. Green? Will they even have a candidate in Totnes?

The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year? (Incidentally, a concern shared by many natural LibDems and tactical-voting inclined Labour supporters you chat to.)

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

HYUFD, but in dire need of an editor.

DavidL

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

DavidL

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

I’m taken by the way that you think an unfettered Boris Johnson is acceptable.

Acceptable is a high standard. Better than the alternatives.

Alanbrooke

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

I saw Nicola Sturgeon on TV the other night and was struck by how much she had aged since becoming FM. I dont thin the job is doing her health much good, Salmond seemed to take it all in his stride.

Nigelb

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

Stocky

MarqueeMark said:

"The reluctance here might be down to the LibDem candidate - having voted Conservatve for Dr. Wollaston in 2015, perhaps with some misgivings about her saying she would implement Brexit in 2017, they find her eventual conversion to the LibDems, via several other parties this year, somewhat baffling and unnerving. What does she still stand for - and will she still stand for it next year?"


Thank you for your posts MarqueeMark - I always look out for them.

Were I to live in such a constituency I would struggle to vote for a candidate that had changed party. I vote LibDem but if the local candidate was Wollaston or Umunna or Smith etc I would either not vote or spoil my paper.

I think that a lot of people feel the same as me about this.

DavidL

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

I saw Nicola Sturgeon on TV the other night and was struck by how much she had aged since becoming FM. I dont thin the job is doing her health much good, Salmond seemed to take it all in his stride.

Maybe he had more interesting hobbies.

Banterman

Roger said:

Jonathan said:

Boris lowering the temperature didn’t last long.

Comparing any current British politician to Hitler or Stalin is wrong. It wrong when people do it on social media, it’s doubly wrong when politicians do it. When the PM does it, he sets a bad precedent and gives permission to every nutter and extremist out there.

Johnson's Tories seem to have airbrushed the Cameron years and reassembled as the nasty party. Very good news for the opposition particularly the Lib Dems if they can organise themselves and start speaking with one voice.

The Stalin comparison is useful provided the general public know how terrible Stalin actually was.

If it drifts away into the ether as Corbyn's IRA support did in 2017, its pointless.

Let's hope Boris's team have learned the lesson from then.

Alanbrooke

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an electio remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

what makes you think Swinson is acceptable ?

DavidL

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

Agreed. That was my original point but you've put it more succinctly.

MarqueeMark

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an electio remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

what makes you think Swinson is acceptable ?

Perhaps he meant Farage?

Foxy

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

I am a current member of the LDs, and former member of the Lab party. I moved over after the Iraq war mongering.

To me, the depiction of Corbyn as a stalinist is bizarre. It is Johnson's party that is ruthlessly purging dissenters, dictating top down policy, and persuing ideological policies regardless of economic consequences.

Johnson and Stalin also share youthful womanising, a sense of humour and a ruthless lust for power.

Nigelb

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an electio remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

what makes you think Swinson is acceptable ?

One can start with knowledge that she would countenance neither Corbyn nor Johnson as PM.

Banterman

Alanbrooke said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

I saw Nicola Sturgeon on TV the other night and was struck by how much she had aged since becoming FM. I dont thin the job is doing her health much good, Salmond seemed to take it all in his stride.

When you see pictures of her without the political slap on, you can see it's a major effort to present the Nicola FM look. It must be extremely hard to sustain it over the years as she is of course getting older.

Streeter

Cleverly car crash on BBC Breakfast. Trying and failing to defend the indefensible.

Alanbrooke

Nigelb said:

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement igovernment.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of deathparty has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an electio remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Torie seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

what makes you think Swinson is acceptable ?

One can start with knowledge that she would countenance neither Corbyn nor Johnson as PM.

she currently comes across as nanny whip who wants to tell us all how to lead our lives. Shes appealing to the self righteous middle classes and I doubt there are enough of them to get her elected.

Jonathan

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Speak for yourself. Given the chaos of the past few years with a proven unlawful, ‘fuck business’ PM, my priority is to vote to get them out.

Foxy

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

I have voted in every GE since 1983, but never in a seat that has changed hands. Only for about 20% of us is there a realistic chance of this, the other 80% of us might as well sit it out. One reason for the high turnout for the referendums was that every vote counts in a way that FPTP doesn't.

ydoethur

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

That rather presupposes I want the Tories to have a large overall majority. Which I don’t. Six would be plenty, twenty far too many.

Therefore votes leaking from Corbyn to the Liberal Democrats to damage Labour while not significantly helping the Tories sounds pretty good to me.

Alistair

https://twitter.com/danpfeiffer/status/1191906593786363904?s=19

Foxy

Jonathan said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement in the polls in this election, it could come about from two directions: Brexit Party supporters realising that a vote for the Brexit Party kills Brexit; and previous Tories realising that, once we get beyond Brexit - and boy do they want us to get beyond Brexit - their best interests are still served by a Conservative government.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Speak for yourself. Given the chaos of the past few years with a proven unlawful, ‘fuck business’ PM, my priority is to vote to get them out.

Oh to be a fly on the wall today when BoZo meets the Queen....

Stocky

Foxy said:

"Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."

I can`t help thinking that the LDs are dogging a hole for themselves by promising that they would never back Corbyn to become PM in any circumstances.

If the Tories fail to get a majority and a Lab/LD/SNP coalition or C&S would be the only way to enable a 2nd referendum then LDs will come under stong pressure to recant on their promise. Tuition fees?

Nigel_Foremain

Mr Alanbrooke, I find Swinson acceptable, as she seems eminently more acceptable than the other two. I am not sure I need to do a hatchet job on Johnson and Corbyn's dreadful reputations as they are both a matter of record. I accept that my vote switch to the LDs is a risk, but I consider it a moral duty to vote and a moral duty not to vote for Labour or Conservatives while they are in the grip of their extremist fringes.

Jonathan

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

That rather presupposes I want the Tories to have a large overall majority. Which I don’t. Six would be plenty, twenty far too many.

Therefore votes leaking from Corbyn to the Liberal Democrats to damage Labour while not significantly helping the Tories sounds pretty good to me.

That is the quickest route to a Tory landslide.

Alanbrooke

Nigel_Foremain said:

Mr Alanbrooke, I find Swinson acceptable, as she seems eminently more acceptable than the other two. I am not sure I need to do a hatchet job on Johnson and Corbyn's dreadful reputations as they are both a matter of record. I accept that my vote switch to the LDs is a risk, but I consider it a moral duty to vote and a moral duty not to vote for Labour or Conservatives while they are in the grip of their extremist fringes.

well good luck with it Mr F, but I find her hectoring and authoritarian so really not my cup of tea

NickPalmer

NorthCadboll said:

Good morning and I would simply point out that remain voting Tories who voted Tory in 2017 soon after the Referendum are far less likely to defect to the Liberals than the Liberals on here think. For all the girl guide from Dunbartonshire says she wont support a Corbyn government, they will realise that installing LibDem MPs makes a Corbyn government more likely.

If she is going to parade around the country for the next 5 weeks screeching at everyone like Violet Elizabeth, who is going to ensure she remains an MP? It would be somewhat ironic if she presides over an increase in Liberal MPs and loses her own seat. It would make Chris Patten's defeat in 1992 look less like a Greek tragedy.

I'm not a fan of Swinson and thought her launch was astonishingly weak (I'm gonna be PM+we hate Brexit+we hate Corbyn, and er that's it), but can we skip the sexist derision ("girl guide", "screeching", "Violet Elizabeth")? There are plenty of reasons not to vote LibDem, but the fact that the leader is female is not one of them.

Nigel_Foremain

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Tories are looking for a reason to stay with the party. Brexit doesn't define who they are politically. A campaign that says yes, we will get Brexit delivered, but look, these are the reasons beyond Brexit to vote for us is a campaign that can still have considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement igovernment.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of deathparty has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an electio remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Torie seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much supporters of Johnson and Corbyn have in common in their insistence that there is no alternative to a binary choice that large parts of the electorate deem unacceptable.

what makes you think Swinson is acceptable ?

One can start with knowledge that she would countenance neither Corbyn nor Johnson as PM.

she currently comes across as nanny whip who wants to tell us all how to lead our lives. Shes appealing to the self righteous middle classes and I doubt there are enough of them to get her elected.

Nice sexist post there Mr Alanbrooke. Maybe some of us are self righteous and middle class. Some would say it is called having values. That means being repulsed by a party that makes excuses for the views of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the behaviour of Boris Johnson, and equally being repulsed by the idea of having a crypto-Communist for PM. Our vote needs to go somewhere.

Paristonda

30% going LD seems high. I suspect as polling day approaches a chunk of that will go back to the tories as the choice becomes a clearer Corbyn or Johnson question.with Johnson's deal he is now offering a similar brexit to what May was talking about in 2017 and if it was enough for these people to vote tory then it will be now. Of course some will be put off by the character of Johnson, but that won't be the decider for most people.

The LDs need some sort of cleggmania breakthrough at this point or else they will suffer the familiar FPTP squeeze effect from both sides. They will still increase their seats and votes from 2017 but not by enough.

So far the campaign hasn't felt very much about Brexit. It's still in the Phoney War stage so that could change but it could be a sign that this won't really be a brexit election after all.

ydoethur

Foxy said:

I am a current member of the LDs, and former member of the Lab party. I moved over after the Iraq war mongering.

To me, the depiction of Corbyn as a stalinist is bizarre. It is Johnson's party that is ruthlessly purging dissenters, dictating top down policy, and persuing ideological policies regardless of economic consequences.

Johnson and Stalin also share youthful womanising, a sense of humour and a ruthless lust for power.

Well, it’s fair to say that Corbyn only shares the first one (btw, I think ‘youthful’ was an unnecessary addition to that sentence).

I would be OK with describing Corbyn as a Stalinist, because he is one. He believes in state control of industry, the confiscation of private assets without compensation, and a top-down economy run for the benefit of its workforce rather than its users, not to mention all the issues around antisemitism. Just I see nothing wrong in calling Macdonnell a Maoist, Milne a liar, Johnson a fool or Cummings an imbecile.

Comparing him to Stalin personally however, if that is what Johnson has done, is going much too far. Just as I criticise that nutter on here who lightly compares everyone to Hitler, so I’m quite happy to call that out.

Have a good morning.

Foxy

It does look as if Trump is good at getting out the vote for the Dems:

https://twitter.com/tbonier/status/1191894324025405441?s=19

President Warren incoming...

ydoethur

Jonathan said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

That rather presupposes I want the Tories to have a large overall majority. Which I don’t. Six would be plenty, twenty far too many.

Therefore votes leaking from Corbyn to the Liberal Democrats to damage Labour while not significantly helping the Tories sounds pretty good to me.

That is the quickest route to a Tory landslide.

Except I live in a Tory seat.

TTFN.

edmundintokyo

Stocky said:

Foxy said:

"Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."

I can`t help thinking that the LDs are dogging a hole for themselves by promising that they would never back Corbyn to become PM in any circumstances.

If the Tories fail to get a majority and a Lab/LD/SNP coalition or C&S would be the only way to enable a 2nd referendum then LDs will come under stong pressure to recant on their promise. Tuition fees?

Good chance for Corbyn to stitch up the Labour succession though, isn't it?

Alistair

Did HYUFD make any turnout predictions for Kentucky?

https://twitter.com/tbonier/status/1191894324025405441?s=19

Alanbrooke

Nigel_Foremain said:

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

Alanbrooke said:

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

The Conservatives will undoubtedly lose some Remainer votes. That's a given. But in terms of those aversion to Brexit. The LibDems are

But I get the strong impression these Remain Torie considerable traction with them.

If you are looking for late movement igovernment.

“We hate you and despise you, you treacherous quislings, now vote for us” is unlikely to be a viable election slogan for the Conservatives.

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of deathparty has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an electio remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Torie seat they define it.

It’s remarkable how much suptable.

what makes you think Swinson is acceptable ?

One can start with knowledge that she would countenance neither Corbyn nor Johnson as PM.

she currently comes across as nanny whip who wants to tell us all how to lead our lives. Shes appealing to the self righteous middle classes and I doubt there are enough of them to get her elected.

Nice sexist post there Mr Alanbrooke. Maybe some of us are self righteous and middle class. Some would say it is called having values. That means being repulsed by a party that makes excuses for the views of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the behaviour of Boris Johnson, and equally being repulsed by the idea of having a crypto-Communist for PM. Our vote needs to go somewhere.

theres nothing wrong with having values, everyone has them, its the forcing your values on other people which causes the problems.

Nigel_Foremain

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

AlastairMeeks said:

MarqueeMark said:

Some of us actually bother to make detailed reasoned post on here. Whilst some just keep regurgitating their vomit.

Every time your coterie of death cultists celebrate the expulsion of another Conservative MP for failing to collude in chaos and the imposition of a policy that no one voted for, you reinforce the message that the Conservative party has become a narrow sect.

And now, having spent years spitting venom at anyone who does not submit completely to your obsession, you ask for their votes.

You might not see their problem. But they do.

I see the problem but we have an election where the offer is before us. With all the cuteness of tactical voting we are nevertheless faced with Corbyn vs the Conservatives.

The party has changed significantly but these people were always there albeit in the background. If they can convince that there are some sensible heads then 2017 Remain Conservatives might well remain 2019 Conservatives.

Because as @MarqueeMark notes we are Conservatives, oh and also Jeremy Corbyn.

Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD.

It's really not. If Corbyn is to be held at bay the Tories need to win the Shires and small towns consistently. Lib Dems picking up seats increases the risk of the unacceptable. Even when Labour are not in the race for a particular seat they define it.

Foxy’s a Lib voter with Labour sympathies.

To the rest of us, it’s safe to vote Liberal Democrat in a LABOUR held seat.

Unless it is a Tory target (and there are about 60 of them). Its the same in Scotland where I would vote for any Unionist party that had a chance of defeating the SNP, even Labour. As none of them do in my seat I can simply express my preference.

I have voted in every GE since 1983, but never in a seat that has changed hands. Only for about 20% of us is there a realistic chance of this, the other 80% of us might as well sit it out. One reason for the high turnout for the referendums was that every vote counts in a way that FPTP doesn't.

Indeed. It is bizarre that that many make the audacious claim that the EU is undemocratic, while we have a system where in practicality 80% of us our votes count for nothing. It is a system that would make a banana republic blush.

Jonathan

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

I am a current member of the LDs, and former member of the Lab party. I moved over after the Iraq war mongering.

To me, the depiction of Corbyn as a stalinist is bizarre. It is Johnson's party that is ruthlessly purging dissenters, dictating top down policy, and persuing ideological policies regardless of economic consequences.

Johnson and Stalin also share youthful womanising, a sense of humour and a ruthless lust for power.

Well, it’s fair to say that Corbyn only shares the first one (btw, I think ‘youthful’ was an unnecessary addition to that sentence).

I would be OK with describing Corbyn as a Stalinist, because he is one. He believes in state control of industry, the confiscation of private assets without compensation, and a top-down economy run for the benefit of its workforce rather than its users, not to mention all the issues around antisemitism. Just I see nothing wrong in calling Macdonnell a Maoist, Milne a liar, Johnson a fool or Cummings an imbecile.

Comparing him to Stalin personally however, if that is what Johnson has done, is going much too far. Just as I criticise that nutter on here who lightly compares everyone to Hitler, so I’m quite happy to call that out.

Have a good morning.

Johnson is prime minister not just a nutter on the net. Totally cynical and out of order in equal measure.

Foxy

Stocky said:

Foxy said:

"Reject that false choice. It is not Corbyn vs Johnson. Outside Lab held seats it is perfectly safe to vote LD."

I can`t help thinking that the LDs are dogging a hole for themselves by promising that they would never back Corbyn to become PM in any circumstances.

If the Tories fail to get a majority and a Lab/LD/SNP coalition or C&S would be the only way to enable a 2nd referendum then LDs will come under stong pressure to recant on their promise. Tuition fees?

In such a parliament, Lab could form a minority government and get support for individual Bill's, but without a formal arrangement. That is as far as it would go.

Alistair

For those keeping score and hat takes us to 8 states that voted Trump having now elected a Democratic governor.

Alanbrooke

Jonathan said:

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

I am a current member of the LDs, and former member of the Lab party. I moved over after the Iraq war mongering.

To me, the depiction of Corbyn as a stalinist is bizarre. It is Johnson's party that is ruthlessly purging dissenters, dictating top down policy, and persuing ideological policies regardless of economic consequences.

Johnson and Stalin also share youthful womanising, a sense of humour and a ruthless lust for power.

Well, it’s fair to say that Corbyn only shares the first one (btw, I think ‘youthful’ was an unnecessary addition to that sentence).

I would be OK with describing Corbyn as a Stalinist, because he is one. He believes in state control of industry, the confiscation of private assets without compensation, and a top-down economy run for the benefit of its workforce rather than its users, not to mention all the issues around antisemitism. Just I see nothing wrong in calling Macdonnell a Maoist, Milne a liar, Johnson a fool or Cummings an imbecile.

Comparing him to Stalin personally however, if that is what Johnson has done, is going much too far. Just as I criticise that nutter on here who lightly compares everyone to Hitler, so I’m quite happy to call that out.

Have a good morning.

Johnson is prime minister not just a nutter on the net. Totally cynical and out of order in equal measure.

like Blair

kle4

Gardenwalker said:

Early days of course, but so far the Lib Dems seem to be flunking the air war. They lack a positive message, while their attack lines seem contrived.

It’s a crying shame because there are ample reasons to distrust Johnson, fear Corbyn, and to get excited about the economic bonanza that would follow the cancellation of Brexit.

Yes, they've gotten attention but early signs are mixed at best.