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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » “Honouring” the referendum should apply to not just to the out

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,266
    TOPPING said:

    If you are less academically gifted and get an opportunity to a) kick the dog; and b) stick it to the man then who wouldn't motivate themselves to get down the road to the library to do so.

    It was of course a huge failing of the Remain campaign not to allow for and address the fact that morons will act moronically.
    Sticking it to the Man is now stick it to the Leavers, should we have another referendum.

    Watching Boris And JRM revoke A50 would be a great result.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    eek said:

    See the thread I've just posted - Labour really don't want an election - they need a new leader first
    Maybe - but it is worth recalling that 3% Tory leads only started to appear in the final week of the 2017 campaign. Governments also tend to lose ground in the main campaign period.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    and what of it ? If the system doesnt work for them why wouldnt they kick it ?

    Of course but the difficulty with that is that the system is about to get a lot more not workingy for them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Honouring the Good Friday Agreement should take priority.
    No: honouring the objectives of the Belfast Agreement, not the treaty per se.

    The purpose was to established a settled peace between two communities with a complex history based on a consociationalist approach.

    It was structured based on the overall constitutional arrangements at the time: i.e. that both Ireland and the UK were in the EU

    That assumption is no longer valid, as the UK electorate has decided that the country should leave the EU. The Protestant community, as represented by the DUP, believes that NI should remain indelibly linked to the UK. (The proportion voting to Leave or Remain in NI doesn't matter, as consociationalism requires the consent of the representatives of both communities)

    Your approach is to say "The Belfast Agreement cannot change! It must be imposed on one community despite the fact that it requires a breach of their fundamental principal of linkage to the UK"

    My approach is to say "Sophisticated politicians should seek for a new solution to address the problem that the Belfast Agreement was designed to solve"

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    isam said:

    The last three and a bit years on here have been like entries for a 6th form essay contest titled

    "Imagine you are someone with a highly strung temperament who has had the good fortune to have got their own way for most of their life, but just lost an argument with a person less academically able and financially well off than them"

    I don't get this argument. Most Remain voters were Labour or Lib Dem supporters, who are very well aquainted with losing arguments and elections!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    Wealthy people had the luxury to vote on values, it is undoubtedly true - and that applies to both the Leave and Remain votes. But what is objecting to large scale EU immigration because it drives down salaries and makes housing less affordable if it is not an economic argument?

    you told me consistently it was racism. Are you now changing your mind ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,266
    Stocky said:

    Re: Corbyn: as we know he only became leader due to influx of members voting for him. Reports recently state that the Labour Party has lost a lot of members. Does anyone know whether these recent leavers are Corbyn supporters or disullusioned Blairites?

    If the latter, surely Corbyn is in a stronger position that ever - at least with regard to the menbership?

    In the 2015 Leadership contest Jezza didn't win on the three quidders, he won with existing members.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,295
    Danny565 said:

    I do love the idea of an election being prevented because primary schools refuse to call off their nativity plays :D
    If only there were a precedent for there being no room at the inn at December... :)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787
    TOPPING said:

    If you are less academically gifted and get an opportunity to a) kick the dog; and b) stick it to the man then who wouldn't motivate themselves to get down the road to the library to do so.

    It was of course a huge failing of the Remain campaign not to allow for and address the fact that morons will act moronically.
    one would have thought the gifted might have done enough not to make the hoi polloi kick the dog.

    I assume you second comment refers to Osborne;s camapign management ?
  • I was open to persuasion. Then it became apparent that all Leave had to campaign on was an anti-immigration message and at that point it was apparent that Remain was the less bad choice.
    I remember your postings long before the referendum campaign started when you were still posting as Antifrank. You were never anything other than completely opposed to leaving. Not least because at the time you had a place in Hungary.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738

    lol

    but youre still meant to be smarter.

    ever heard of postal votes :smiley:
    I have one as I'm never sure where I will be...

  • Its not hard to understand, its simply you want to ignore that the economy was the big big message from Remain, practically its only message and it didnt convince enough people because it wasnt switched on to what they were thinking.
    Nor, crucially did it come from people who could convince.

    I give up. It's such a simple point.
  • I'm enjoying this latest Leave meme that the referendum vote was presented to us, fully formed, immanent and unblemished by external influences.

    Another Meeks lie.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I remember your postings long before the referendum campaign started when you were still posting as Antifrank. You were never anything other than completely opposed to leaving. Not least because at the time you had a place in Hungary.
    I wrote this a long time back. Others can judge whether you are accurately summarising my position:

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html?m=0
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    The can must be getting quite dented now.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    “For us as a business, obviously the main challenge isn’t from Brexit itself, it’s from the uncertainty. The number one requirement is that there is certainty about what happens. Equally, that uncertainty is not unhelpful from a reader perspective,” he said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/oct/15/daily-telegraph-drops-bottled-water-promo-wh-smith-pre-tax-profits-fall

    brave of the guardian to throw stones
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    I give up. It's such a simple point.
    Its the killer app to you as a remainer. its a point of interest to me as a leaver, It simply shows why there is such a gulf between the sides. You cant get your head round a view that says theres more to life than money
  • Danny565 said:

    The transition is much more than just staying in the Single Market. We'd be technically outside the EU structures, but we'd still remain subject to every EU law/rule/regulation that we are currently, as well as full contributions to the EU Budget. Not even fisheries policy changes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO_Fg6R0i5w

    Again, I'd be fine with that carrying on indefinitely, but I'm surprised you would be.
    No I would not.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    one would have thought the gifted might have done enough not to make the hoi polloi kick the dog.

    I assume you second comment refers to Osborne;s camapign management ?
    The gifted tried to explain that really, the EU was not responsible for the woes that hoi polloi were facing and that the root cause of their problems were home grown. But, being academically less able, the academically less able were unable to understand this.

    As that sage of our times put it: "That would be like arguing with a pigeon. You can tell it that you are right and it is wrong, but it's still going to shit in your hair."
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329

    I don't get this argument. Most Remain voters were Labour or Lib Dem supporters, who are very well aquainted with losing arguments and elections!
    I dont know about that, Only one of the previous five governments didn't feature one of those parties, and there was very little between their leaderships view on the EU and immigration from 1991 until 2015, so even if your party lost, the rules of the game were those you favoured.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012

    Well perhaps, just perhaps, such a person should have been vehemently calling out the xenophobic lies before the referendum result to have a debate about how a Leave vote were to be implemented. But such Leavers were conspicuous by their silence on the point. They just cast their vote, obviously content to do so on the basis of the campaign fought.

    After the referendum result, they crept out from behind the curtain to announce that they were open to a compromise (mysteriously on exactly the terms they wanted). But by that point, the option of such a way forward had been closed off.
    Thanks for this, but your polemic does not quite deal with the point.
  • you told me consistently it was racism. Are you now changing your mind ?

    I very specifically never said that, though I can see why you would have wanted me to. So, what kind of argument is high EU immigration reduces wages and makes housing kess affordable if it is not an economic one?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787
    TOPPING said:

    The gifted tried to explain that really, the EU was not responsible for the woes that hoi polloi were facing and that the root cause of their problems were home grown. But, being academically less able, the academically less able were unable to understand this.

    As that sage of our times put it: "That would be like arguing with a pigeon. You can tell it that you are right and it is wrong, but it's still going to shit in your hair."
    "the root cause of their problems were home grown"

    so the gifted in effect said were fking you vote for us :smiley:

    Im beginning to wonder who the gifted are in this scenario.
  • I don't get this argument. Most Remain voters were Labour or Lib Dem supporters, who are very well aquainted with losing arguments and elections!

    Indeed, I have pretty much lost every time I have voted since 2005!

  • isamisam Posts: 41,329

    I wrote this a long time back. Others can judge whether you are accurately summarising my position:

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html?m=0
    I got a couple of thousand words but immigration aint one of 'em
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738

    Its the killer app to you as a remainer. its a point of interest to me as a leaver, It simply shows why there is such a gulf between the sides. You cant get your head round a view that says theres more to life than money
    If we assume your typical leaver is from "the not doing that well" side of the economy then economics isn't something they really care about.

    I was chatting to some people in Nissan and they said the letter from Management did them no favours and actually encouraged people to vote Leave. When I suggest it would have been better to ask people to think about who bought the left hand drive cars they agreed it would have been a simply and easier message to sell.

    As I've learnt over the years you don't tell people what to do you ask them questions to get them to make the decision you want them to make.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    "the root cause of their problems were home grown"

    so the gifted in effect said were fking you vote for us :smiley:

    Im beginning to wonder who the gifted are in this scenario.
    Well given that "the political class" has been in power in the UK for centuries the alternative was a different political system but I'm not sure voting Leave was ever going to achieve that. That would have required some other form, perhaps of direct action and was certainly nothing to do with an in/out EU referendum.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,076
    justin124 said:

    Maybe - but it is worth recalling that 3% Tory leads only started to appear in the final week of the 2017 campaign. Governments also tend to lose ground in the main campaign period.
    I don't think that last sentence is true in general.
    For the most of a government's term that party drops in the polls, partly because any government needs to make some unpopular decisions, and partly because people like complaining about the government.

    When the election comes the voters start to look at the comparison, between the two main parties and many who voted for the government last time start to think that that lot aren't so bad after all. That and the government tends to give away some swing voter friendly sweeteners.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Danny565 said:

    I do love the idea of an election being prevented because primary schools refuse to call off their nativity plays :D
    The calling off of dull and repetitive nativity plays is probably the only GOOD thing about having an election at Christmas.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    I very specifically never said that, though I can see why you would have wanted me to. So, what kind of argument is high EU immigration reduces wages and makes housing kess affordable if it is not an economic one?

    its both social and economic a point I made many times . And I do rather recall you were big on this xenophobia thing.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329

    Indeed, I have pretty much lost every time I have voted since 2005!

    Me too!

    And the one time I won, I didnt get paid out
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    algarkirk said:

    Thanks for this, but your polemic does not quite deal with the point.
    Given the campaign fought (and acquiesced to by such voters) such a voter would need to choose between Leaving on the anti-immigration prospectus put forward by both Leave campaigns or Remaining on the renegotiated terms secured by David Cameron.

    Expecting a compromise that satisfied you completely in such circumstances would be fanciful. And, given the way in which the referendum was fought, would show a reckless disregard for democracy.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787
    eek said:

    If we assume your typical leaver is from "the not doing that well" side of the economy then economics isn't something they really care about.

    I was chatting to some people in Nissan and they said the letter from Management did them no favours and actually encouraged people to vote Leave. When I suggest it would have been better to ask people to think about who bought the left hand drive cars they agreed it would have been a simply and easier message to sell.

    As I've learnt over the years you don't tell people what to do you ask them questions to get them to make the decision you want them to make.
    precisely

    plase dont do any advisory work if theres a second referendum :smile:
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867
    edited October 2019
    justin124 said:

    Not necessarily. An election could be announced in mid- December with Polling Day set for 23rd or 30th January.
    I can't see people wanting to risk the last two weeks of January and first two weeks of February (traditionally the coldest four weeks of the year) on an election.

    If an election doesn't happen by 5th December I really think the window closes until end of February/early March or more likely next Spring.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Scott_P said:
    New waves of refugees from the Middle East is the last thing we need when pushing for a soft Brexit. How damn depressing.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329
    edited October 2019

    The calling off of dull and repetitive nativity plays is probably the only GOOD thing about having an election at Christmas.
    There is a Viz cartoon which casts Dads at a Nativity Play as wannabe escapees from a POW camp. Very very funny
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,266

    I very specifically never said that, though I can see why you would have wanted me to. So, what kind of argument is high EU immigration reduces wages and makes housing kess affordable if it is not an economic one?

    Though by and large those were spurious reasons. With the exception of the Fens, Leave voting areas were very often ones with low EU immigration and low house prices. Places like Copeland and the Welsh valleys. Less so the older Shire home owning Leaver demographic, but by and large those are not communities under economic strain.

    Areas with high EU immigration and high house prices were often strongly Remain. This is because immigration, house prices and Remain voting all correlate with economic success.



  • Well perhaps, just perhaps, such a person should have been vehemently calling out the xenophobic lies before the referendum result to have a debate about how a Leave vote were to be implemented. But such Leavers were conspicuous by their silence on the point. They just cast their vote, obviously content to do so on the basis of the campaign fought.

    After the referendum result, they crept out from behind the curtain to announce that they were open to a compromise (mysteriously on exactly the terms they wanted). But by that point, the option of such a way forward had been closed off.
    Yet more Meeks lies. You are on a roll today.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    isam said:

    The last three and a bit years on here have been like entries for a 6th form essay contest titled

    "Imagine you are someone with a highly strung temperament who has had the good fortune to have got their own way for most of their life, but just lost an argument with a person less academically able and financially well off than them"

    Wealth is a very poor predictor of whether someone voted for Brexit.

    Age is the only good predictor.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787
    TOPPING said:

    Well given that "the political class" has been in power in the UK for centuries the alternative was a different political system but I'm not sure voting Leave was ever going to achieve that. That would have required some other form, perhaps of direct action and was certainly nothing to do with an in/out EU referendum.
    We'll still end up wth the same political class, all the vote will do is make them recalibrate whats important but that in its own way is progress. The pissed off factor as you have pointed out was left to build up for far too long and there was no way of releasing pressure.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That would be remarkably convenient for Leavers. Unfortunately there isn't the slightest evidence to support that.
    From memory I thought there was reasonable academic evidence that campaigns don't make much difference to elections.

    (Based on a thirty second google it looks like things may have moved on in the 20 years since I studied psephology

    Early research suggested that such campaigns were not very important but subsequent research shows that they are influential both in increasing turnout and changing the party choices that individual electors make.

    https://oxfordre.com/politics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190228637.001.0001/acrefore-9780190228637-e-224
  • its both social and economic a point I made many times . And I do rather recall you were big on this xenophobia thing.

    So, it was principles informed by economics? That, I would suggest, is pretty much how most Remain voters saw things, too. And, no, I did not ever accuse Leave voters of xenophobia. I would certainly have accused specific Leave voters of that and would doubtless have accused certain Leave politicians of seeking to appeal to xenophobes.

  • Charles said:

    From memory I thought there was reasonable academic evidence that campaigns don't make much difference to elections.

    (Based on a thirty second google it looks like things may have moved on in the 20 years since I studied psephology

    Early research suggested that such campaigns were not very important but subsequent research shows that they are influential both in increasing turnout and changing the party choices that individual electors make.

    https://oxfordre.com/politics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190228637.001.0001/acrefore-9780190228637-e-224
    Even if it is largely true that GE campaigns make little difference, that's presumably because the arguments are well rehearsed and the politicians making them are familiar. The finding wouldn't necessarily carry over to a one-off referendum.
  • Foxy said:

    Though by and large those were spurious reasons. With the exception of the Fens, Leave voting areas were very often ones with low EU immigration and low house prices. Places like Copeland and the Welsh valleys. Less so the older Shire home owning Leaver demographic, but by and large those are not communities under economic strain.

    Areas with high EU immigration and high house prices were often strongly Remain. This is because immigration, house prices and Remain voting all correlate with economic success.

    Yep, I agree.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852

    We'll still end up wth the same political class, all the vote will do is make them recalibrate whats important but that in its own way is progress.
    Where you come from the effect of Brexit could be to get a different political class with D4 accents.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    Alistair said:

    Wealth is a very poor predictor of whether someone voted for Brexit.

    Age is the only good predictor.
    Equally I've seen a paper that shows that the impact of austerity on an area also had a material impact.
  • I wrote this a long time back. Others can judge whether you are accurately summarising my position:

    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html?m=0
    As we have often said before there is a big diffrence between the Meeks headers snd what you post below the line.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    edited October 2019
    As someone who has spent almost all their life in London I can assure you there are numerous boroughs in London with high house prices, high immigration and limited success. The same applies to many Major UK Cities. The home counties are a more desirable place to live than London on many measurements and yet had a majority leave vote.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    Gabs2 said:

    New waves of refugees from the Middle East is the last thing we need when pushing for a soft Brexit. How damn depressing.
    A new wave of refugees is coming.

    As I stated last Sunday as the Kurd issue kicked off Erdogan needs the Syrian refugees out of Istanbul and Turkey so needed somewhere for them to go.

    The Syrians don't want to go to a part of Syria they didn't come from so are desperately trying to find another place to go to.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    So, it was principles informed by economics? That, I would suggest, is pretty much how most Remain voters saw things, too. And, no, I did not ever accuse Leave voters of xenophobia. I would certainly have accused specific Leave voters of that and would doubtless have accused certain Leave politicians of seeking to appeal to xenophobes.

    hmm

    we will have to agree to differ on that

    as for economics the Remian arguments were all for telling voters how much they would lose and how we'd all have to live on grass for the rest of our lives.

    None of them addressed the impacts of immigration or accepted it as a valid concern. The only people I can recall grasping this nettle were John Harris of the Guardian who wrote some splendid articles on life in the provinces and John Denham who understood what was afoot. For the rest immigration and its impact were simply name calling exercises,
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    isam said:

    I dont know about that, Only one of the previous five governments didn't feature one of those parties, and there was very little between their leaderships view on the EU and immigration from 1991 until 2015, so even if your party lost, the rules of the game were those you favoured.
    That's a weird reply. If you were a Lib Dem voter your party has been in govt for 5 years of your life. If you are a middle aged Labour voter like me your party has been in power for 13 years out of the 40 or so you can remember. And the fact that Tory govts up until May's favoured EU membership is pretty immaterial given they did a shed load of other stuff that I hated. We're not all obsessed with the EU. My point stands: most Remain voters have lost more political arguments than they have won, and so it's not like Brexit represents a sudden shock to our dignity, merely one more stage in things going to shit.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    isam said:

    The last three and a bit years on here have been like entries for a 6th form essay contest titled

    "Imagine you are someone with a highly strung temperament who has had the good fortune to have got their own way for most of their life, but just lost an argument with a person less academically able and financially well off than them"

    That's brilliant.

    *applauds*
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    Where you come from the effect of Brexit could be to get a different political class with D4 accents.
    Right. Is that meant to rile me or something, because really it just looks stupid.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329
    Foxy said:

    Though by and large those were spurious reasons. With the exception of the Fens, Leave voting areas were very often ones with low EU immigration and low house prices. Places like Copeland and the Welsh valleys. Less so the older Shire home owning Leaver demographic, but by and large those are not communities under economic strain.

    Areas with high EU immigration and high house prices were often strongly Remain. This is because immigration, house prices and Remain voting all correlate with economic success.



    Where are the figures for EU immigration by town/borough or constituency?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    Brom said:

    As someone who has spent almost all their life in London I can assure you there are numerous boroughs in London with high house prices, high immigration and limited success. The same applies to many Major UK Cities. The home counties are a more desirable place to live than London on many measurements and yet had a majority leave vote.

    The home counties are nice places for a walk and a pub lunch but I'd rather live in Wigan than Surrey.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see people wanting to risk the last two weeks of January and first two weeks of February (traditionally the coldest four weeks of the year) on an election.

    If an election doesn't happen by 5th December I really think the window closes until end of February/early March or more likely next Spring.
    Whats the earliest date of a GE i.e. if a vote in parliament were held today? I think i have read 5 weeks is the minimum length of campaign? I find FTPA and all that flows from it is in need of clarification.
  • Go Nicola!

    I've heard bits of pieces of her speech going in and out of the car on the school run, but her speech I've heard has been excellent and except for the cutting the military section I'd agree with what I've heard despite her being a lefty.

    Go for independence Scotland, we can do it, you can do it! Good luck.

    Scotland 2020. Go for it :smiley:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    Scott_P said:
    I don't know why there is all this kerfuffle. The EU is not going to agree to any hardening of the border in NI. It just isn't. And Boris knows it and in all probability (because he is a c**t and one can't be sure) agrees also. So it is all a grand strategy to try to...to...er...I'm not sure what but the EU ain't caving and agreeing to a hardening of the border in NI any time soon.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738

    Whats the earliest date of a GE i.e. if a vote in parliament were held today? I think i have read 5 weeks is the minimum length of campaign? I find FTPA and all that flows from it is in need of clarification.
    19th November or more realistically the 21st.

    You need 25 working days minimum so Bank Holidays may be an issue.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Scott_P said:
    I doubt a deal will be made. I would welcome one, if the deal could be validated by a confirmatory referendum between deal and remain.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,705
    Scott_P said:
    Is that the big bad EU bullying poor little Boris?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329

    That's a weird reply. If you were a Lib Dem voter your party has been in govt for 5 years of your life. If you are a middle aged Labour voter like me your party has been in power for 13 years out of the 40 or so you can remember. And the fact that Tory govts up until May's favoured EU membership is pretty immaterial given they did a shed load of other stuff that I hated. We're not all obsessed with the EU. My point stands: most Remain voters have lost more political arguments than they have won, and so it's not like Brexit represents a sudden shock to our dignity, merely one more stage in things going to shit.
    "My point stands: most Remain voters have lost more political arguments than they have won,"

    I don't know that you can categorically state that as fact.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    isam said:



    Where are the figures for EU immigration by town/borough or constituency?

    I suspect it's all anecdotes until we get a census. There was a report a couple of years ago that supermarket sales pointed to a population millions more than the government was reporting but 10 seconds of googling can't find it.,
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829
    If I had voted on the expectation of a cushiony soft Brexit, where little changed except law making was more controlled by Westminster, less by Brussels, the closest thing resembling my choice would still be Leave, of any hue.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    TOPPING said:

    "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. "
    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html Viewed today.

    No ifs, no buts, no "suggest". Gove, Johnson, Cummings and all the other gobshites put their name to this promise and are now refusing to respect it.
  • hmm

    we will have to agree to differ on that

    as for economics the Remian arguments were all for telling voters how much they would lose and how we'd all have to live on grass for the rest of our lives.

    None of them addressed the impacts of immigration or accepted it as a valid concern. The only people I can recall grasping this nettle were John Harris of the Guardian who wrote some splendid articles on life in the provinces and John Denham who understood what was afoot. For the rest immigration and its impact were simply name calling exercises,

    We hear what we want to hear I guess.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,705

    I doubt a deal will be made. I would welcome one, if the deal could be validated by a confirmatory referendum between deal and remain.
    It is the role of Parliament to make the decision as to the type of Brexit that is implemented. A second referendum poses more risk, the possibility of anger, delay and public unrest than almost any other option.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    If I had voted on the expectation of a cushiony soft Brexit, where little changed except law making was more controlled by Westminster, less by Brussels, the closest thing resembling my choice would still be Leave, of any hue.

    I think that's what a lot of people thought they were voting for.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2019
    Guardian says Boris has agreed "in principle" to a Customs border between NI and the British mainland.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,218

    Whats the earliest date of a GE i.e. if a vote in parliament were held today? I think i have read 5 weeks is the minimum length of campaign? I find FTPA and all that flows from it is in need of clarification.
    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1184110807543635971?s=20
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Brexiteers going into number 10, varadkar about to do a presser.........
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    I doubt a deal will be made. I would welcome one, if the deal could be validated by a confirmatory referendum between deal and remain.
    I'd settle for that as a compromise.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Danny565 said:

    Guardian says Boris has agreed "in principle" to a Customs border between NI and the British mainland.

    Lol.
    Lol and lol again.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    We hear what we want to hear I guess.

    fraid so but twas ever thus
  • So according to Wee Jimmie Krankie there will be no fracking in Scotland, because fossil fuels are bad.

    Wow it will be interesting to see how an independent Scotland manages without North Sea Oil when she logically closes that industry down for the same reasons...

    FFS what a joke
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    eek said:

    19th November or more realistically the 21st.

    You need 25 working days minimum so Bank Holidays may be an issue.
    Thanks, I was worried as i have a holiday booked but that time frame although hypothetical leaves me alright. Just have to worry No Deal might collapse the airline i am flying with! Although it should be alright, to start with anyway. I worry about everything!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329

    We hear what we want to hear I guess.

    and see what we want to see
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    Danny565 said:

    Guardian says Boris has agreed "in principle" to a Customs border between NI and the British mainland.

    That's the DUP votes gone.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    CatMan said:

    https://twitter.com/ian_a_jones/status/1184110807543635971?s=20
    Thanks for that. It helps crystalise it in my mind. Not a great time of year for an election but Jan/Feb could be worse!
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    eek said:

    That's the DUP votes gone.
    They were in number 10 last night, he will know how much room for manouvere he has
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329
    Byronic said:

    That's brilliant.

    *applauds*
    Thank you :)
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    So according to Wee Jimmie Krankie there will be no fracking in Scotland, because fossil fuels are bad.

    Wow it will be interesting to see how an independent Scotland manages without North Sea Oil when she logically closes that industry down for the same reasons...

    FFS what a joke

    So you think that the right way to ramp down fossil fuel use is.. to start to exploit extra sources? :D
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400
    viewcode said:

    If only there were a precedent for there being no room at the inn at December... :)
    So, what you're saying is that a Brexit Christmas election presages the second coming?
  • isam said:

    and see what we want to see

    Unfortunately, though, we cannot smell what we want to smell.

  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,218
    rcs1000 said:

    So, what you're saying is that a Brexit Christmas election presages the second coming?
    Don't the DUP think the EU is mentioned in Revelations? Or something like that anyway :neutral:
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829
    TOPPING said:

    The gifted tried to explain that really, the EU was not responsible for the woes that hoi polloi were facing and that the root cause of their problems were home grown. But, being academically less able, the academically less able were unable to understand this.

    As that sage of our times put it: "That would be like arguing with a pigeon. You can tell it that you are right and it is wrong, but it's still going to shit in your hair."
    Actually, the 'less gifted' were right to take the opportunity that came. You're correct, the problem was mainly due to our own politicians - elsewhere in the EU, national interests are fiercely defended, irksome regulations are quietly ignored etc. And even Juncker himself offered the UK semi-detached status. Cameron ignored the offer because he thought he could permanently tether the UK to the EU, hook line and sinker.

    But the public weren't given the opportunity to vote in a referendum with an option to rid the UK of supine, venal, elitist politicians, and replace them with hardworking, patriotic, democratic (basically Swiss) ones. They were given the opportunity to take the ball away and leave the EU. And in the circumstances, that was the right response.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    Flanner said:


    "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. "
    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html Viewed today.

    No ifs, no buts, no "suggest". Gove, Johnson, Cummings and all the other gobshites put their name to this promise and are now refusing to respect it.

    Yeah I know but I'm being generous on the point of principle that it was a manifesto aspiration. And that is all.
  • Danny565 said:

    Guardian says Boris has agreed "in principle" to a Customs border between NI and the British mainland.

    If that is the case, we have wasted close to two years on absolutely nothing!! Still, if it gets a deal done that is the main thing.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,329

    Unfortunately, though, we cannot smell what we want to smell.

    All three are subjective
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101
    Scott_P said:
    I will say again, Boris will throw NI under the bus and go with the rest of WA
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited October 2019
    Noo said:

    So you think that the right way to ramp down fossil fuel use is.. to start to exploit extra sources? :D
    A lot of people live in the fracking target areas, broadly defined - not surprisingly, as the Carboniferous strata powered the Industrial Revolution. Interestingly, thsi seems to include at least part of the constituency of Ms Swinson, who appears to have supported fracking [possibly as a Coalition member, but hey ...] and (edit: reportedly) to have financial support from that quarter.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    If I had voted on the expectation of a cushiony soft Brexit, where little changed except law making was more controlled by Westminster, less by Brussels, the closest thing resembling my choice would still be Leave, of any hue.

    Yes I think that is reasonable. And if we get some cushiony soft Brexit you won't be complaining. The @Richard_Tyndall Leave which I get completely.

    I mean there is the whole what's the fucking point thing but that's a discussion for another day.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Actually, the 'less gifted' were right to take the opportunity that came. You're correct, the problem was mainly due to our own politicians - elsewhere in the EU, national interests are fiercely defended, irksome regulations are quietly ignored etc. And even Juncker himself offered the UK semi-detached status. Cameron ignored the offer because he thought he could permanently tether the UK to the EU, hook line and sinker.

    But the public weren't given the opportunity to vote in a referendum with an option to rid the UK of supine, venal, elitist politicians, and replace them with hardworking, patriotic, democratic (basically Swiss) ones. They were given the opportunity to take the ball away and leave the EU. And in the circumstances, that was the right response.
    Why did the UK choose to elect "supine, venal, elitist politicians" and then to kick them a year later?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,548
    Alistair said:

    Lol.
    Lol and lol again.
    Can't see anyone else reporting this, unless I have missed them.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829
    Noo said:

    I think that's what a lot of people thought they were voting for.
    I'm sure you're right, but I'm puzzled at the suggestion that remain is a closer facsimile of their choice than leave.
  • Actually, the 'less gifted' were right to take the opportunity that came. You're correct, the problem was mainly due to our own politicians - elsewhere in the EU, national interests are fiercely defended, irksome regulations are quietly ignored etc. And even Juncker himself offered the UK semi-detached status. Cameron ignored the offer because he thought he could permanently tether the UK to the EU, hook line and sinker.

    But the public weren't given the opportunity to vote in a referendum with an option to rid the UK of supine, venal, elitist politicians, and replace them with hardworking, patriotic, democratic (basically Swiss) ones. They were given the opportunity to take the ball away and leave the EU. And in the circumstances, that was the right response.
    Even under the circumstance it was still a very dumb response. Self harm may gain attention, but it is never a great way of improving your general conditions.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,101

    So according to Wee Jimmie Krankie there will be no fracking in Scotland, because fossil fuels are bad.

    Wow it will be interesting to see how an independent Scotland manages without North Sea Oil when she logically closes that industry down for the same reasons...

    FFS what a joke

    YOU half witted cretin , we don't get a penny from North Sea Oil , it was all stolen by Westminster and the shysters tell us it is losing money now. You morons might be happy with tremors, shit water supplies etc, we are happy to have no fracking ever.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,266
    isam said:

    Where are the figures for EU immigration by town/borough or constituency?
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/migrationwithintheuk/datasets/localareamigrationindicatorsunitedkingdom

    So in 2016 there were 6046 new NI numbers issued to migrants in Brighton and Hove (pop 16-64 of 203,119) compared to
    202 for 57,674 in Hartlepool,
    5053 for 88,476 in Cambridge,
    63 for 42,509 in Copeland etc etc
This discussion has been closed.