So according to Wee Jimmie Krankie there will be no fracking in Scotland, because fossil fuels are bad.
Wow it will be interesting to see how an independent Scotland manages without North Sea Oil when she logically closes that industry down for the same reasons...
FFS what a joke
YOU half witted cretin , we don't get a penny from North Sea Oil , it was all stolen by Westminster and the shysters tell us it is losing money now. You morons might be happy with tremors, shit water supplies etc, we are happy to have no fracking ever.
Yes, but...an essential part of the economic case for Indy is North sea oil and gas. Thousands in the NE are employed in the sector. SNP are hopelessly conflicted on whether to support it or not. Patrick Harvie's Greens - who SNP rely on - are adamantly against the sector. Banning fracking on fossil fuel grounds is sending a message to a lot of people who don't want to hear it and will vote against it. Its a conundrum.
Not at all. It's like the difference between quarrying Arthur's Seat [big hill in central Edinburgh, though I'm pretty sure you know it, and yes they tried to do it] and quarrying somewhere out in the Lothian countryside. Doesn't bear on the pros and cons of quarrying in general.
Not really following that analogy. The problem, surely, is whether burnishing green credentials is worth throwing a hugely important business sector under the bus. May not play well in NE which is already unimpressed by the possibility of a sell-out of the fishermen to the EU (in the event of IndyRef).
Fracking is a crap business, it should be banned. It would be a disaster for Scotland given the amount of mines right across the central belt we would have disastrous environmental issues.
Don't altogether disagree with that, as it happens. But if the argument extends to oil & gas then its curtains for the yellows in the NE.
Imagine, we might go back to a sweeter, more innocent time when we *didn't have to talk about Brexit all day every day*
It will be like the end of a terrible world war.
Please let it happen.
Do you think people might miss the constant drama ? Personally as a political junkie it’s been compulsive viewing but I think it’s time now to move on .
If the ERG are happy, then presumably the DUP are happy.
Can Boris do this?!?!
If Baker is satisfied, then Boris has done some interesting squaring of circles. It must surely be more refined than the May deal.
Secret of sales. It’s not what you are selling, but how you sell it.
No, the secret of sales is to believe in the product. Without that it is impossible to convince anyone else.
The existence of the timeshare and ppi industries rather disproves your point.
In my 40 years in a sales dominated business I did not need to believe in the product at all and anyone having spent years selling for their living would be astonished if believing in the product was a pre condition for being successful.
An excellent example is Gerard Ratner until he blew it
So according to Wee Jimmie Krankie there will be no fracking in Scotland, because fossil fuels are bad.
Wow it will be interesting to see how an independent Scotland manages without North Sea Oil when she logically closes that industry down for the same reasons...
FFS what a joke
YOU half witted cretin , we don't get a penny from North Sea Oil , it was all stolen by Westminster and the shysters tell us it is losing money now. You morons might be happy with tremors, shit water supplies etc, we are happy to have no fracking ever.
Yes, but...an essential part of the economic case for Indy is North sea oil and gas. Thousands in the NE are employed in the sector. SNP are hopelessly conflicted on whether to support it or not. Patrick Harvie's Greens - who SNP rely on - are adamantly against the sector. Banning fracking on fossil fuel grounds is sending a message to a lot of people who don't want to hear it and will vote against it. Its a conundrum.
Rubbish, the majority are against fracking , we will see what help the Tories give their pals in Aberdeen. Also in what world do you exist if you think the SNP rely on the Greens, they are a bunch of list losers.
SNP rely on the Greens for a pro-Indy majority in Holyrood. Do you even live in Scotland?
Away you halfwit of course I live in Scotland. They do not depend on the Greens you are havering.
Huh? Who do they depend on then? Without the Greens they would be outnumbered 67-62.
Malc can't count. Another sad indictment of the failing Scottish education system. A subject, which, incidentally, was not mentioned by La Sturgeon once in her address to the saltire wavers at the conference today.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Jeez. Give over.
The vote was in 2016. Now we do Brexit. And we move ON.
Exactly. There was no confirmatory referendum for the terms of the SEA or Maastricht or Rome or Nice. And there should be no confirmatory referendum when we win a Rejoin referendum. Accession terms should be left to parliament.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
The British don’t like a bad loser.
Remain could get hammered in a second referendum, provided there is a credible sensible deal on the table.
We can still inisist on an effective date of October 31st.
"I'll pay you next month, but I'll backdate the cheque so it looks like I paid you on time. Is that OK?"
"No"
(Incidentally the date of Charles II's reign is deemed to be from the moment of his father's execution, despite the fact that Cromwell had ruled for about 17 years after. Yes, we literally rewrote legal history)
Effective dates are a very common concept.
"Really??? My entire understanding of temporal space has been transformed! Four-dimensional Euclidean geometry has been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death! My grasp of the universal constants of temporal reality has been changed...forever."
Pause.
"Sorry... I've always wanted to see that done properly..."
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
So according to Wee Jimmie Krankie there will be no fracking in Scotland, because fossil fuels are bad.
Wow it will be interesting to see how an independent Scotland manages without North Sea Oil when she logically closes that industry down for the same reasons...
FFS what a joke
YOU half witted cretin , we don't get a penny from North Sea Oil , it was all stolen by Westminster and the shysters tell us it is losing money now. You morons might be happy with tremors, shit water supplies etc, we are happy to have no fracking ever.
Yes, but...an essential part of the economic case for Indy is North sea oil and gas. Thousands in the NE are employed in the sector. SNP are hopelessly conflicted on whether to support it or not. Patrick Harvie's Greens - who SNP rely on - are adamantly against the sector. Banning fracking on fossil fuel grounds is sending a message to a lot of people who don't want to hear it and will vote against it. Its a conundrum.
Rubbish, the majority are against fracking , we will see what help the Tories give their pals in Aberdeen. Also in what world do you exist if you think the SNP rely on the Greens, they are a bunch of list losers.
SNP rely on the Greens for a pro-Indy majority in Holyrood. Do you even live in Scotland?
Away you halfwit of course I live in Scotland. They do not depend on the Greens you are havering.
Huh? Who do they depend on then? Without the Greens they would be outnumbered 67-62.
Malc can't count. Another sad indictment of the failing Scottish education system. A subject, which, incidentally, was not mentioned by La Sturgeon once in her address to the saltire wavers at the conference today.
Now that Nicola has made Indy 2 this years project it will be interesting to see how the conservatives, labour and the Lib Dems perform in the polls, all of whom are pro Union
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Yes. There is a perfectly sane route to EU membership for the UK. It's called Rejoin.
We exit, we don't like it, the next Labour/LD govt promises a new vote. They win.
We could be back in, inside less than a decade, with no terminal and horrible damage done to UK democracy.
If there is a deal but Brexit is delayed beyone the 31st, Johnson will just say "I got Brexit *done* by the 31st, that's what I said would happen all along".
Call me an old cynic if you like, but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the government is saying one thing to the ERG in London and something completely different to the EU in Brussels. This is pretty much what May did, of course. At some point, though, the shit has to hit the fan. The difficulty for the ERG is that if they say no to this deal they are waving goodbye to Brexit. That is less of an issue for the DUP, of course.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Yes. There is a perfectly sane route to EU membership for the UK. It's called Rejoin.
We exit, we don't like it, the next Labour/LD govt promises a new vote. They win.
We could be back in, inside less than a decade, with no terminal and horrible damage done to UK democracy.
Only provided it is signed off with the DUP and ERG too
Looks like the ERG are on board. So that leaves the DUP
It all depends on figleaves from here - and, of course, that the government has not been saying one thing in London and another in Brussels!
If I'm not entirely mistaken, Mr Johnson will point out to the DUP that they're at liberty to choose between supporting an identified solution now or campaining against it in a NI-only referendum.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
I doubt we will rejoin. It will be too much hassle for all concerned. After a coupole of years, though, you'd expect things to get quite cuddly.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
I doubt we will rejoin. It will be too much hassle for all concerned. After a coupole of years, though, you'd expect things to get quite cuddly.
Yes, quite. And of course the UK's return to the SM and maybe even CU, in an EFTA type deal, has the enormous advantage of *Not requiring a referendum*
I can easily see the next left government campaigning on this, and winning. And in we go. Could happen within 5 years. Remainers need to calm down, accept the loss of the 2016 vote, and get working on EEA status.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
That all depends surely on the EU itself flourishing and growing - economically and politically. Which is far from certain.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I agree . I think rejoin would be very unlikely. Perhaps well into the future but the EU won’t want to know unless there’s a big majority for that in the UK.
As an ardent Remainer I couldn’t sign upto the Euro , I am as pro EU as you can get but totally against the Euro if that makes any sense !
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
I doubt we will rejoin. It will be too much hassle for all concerned. After a coupole of years, though, you'd expect things to get quite cuddly.
Yes, quite. And of course the UK's return to the SM and maybe even CU, in an EFTA type deal, has the enormous advantage of *Not requiring a referendum*
I can easily see the next left government campaigning on this, and winning. And in we go. Could happen within 5 years. Remainers need to calm down, accept the loss of the 2016 vote, and get working on EEA status.
That will depend on what line the new Johnson administraiton takes on an FTA post-election. As I say down below, with Brexit delivered and the BXP neutered, it could just be that the Tories feel able to return to being the party of business. If that is the case, they will do most of the EFTA/EEA heavy lifting. Johnson's problem may be that his party has turned well to the right and so he may not be able to move away from the course he has set.
Good evening all. Had the pleasure of listening to Ed Balls speak for half an hour or so earlier today. Perceptive, entertaining and self deprecating much like his book. The contrast between him and the current Labour leadership is marked, and decidedly in his favour.
Do I detect a whiff of desperation from Remainers on here this afternoon?
Certainly my opinion of Balls has grown since he left office. He pushed for Labour to adopt different positions to those adopted by Miliband, all of which with hindsight turn out to have been prescient. He described as "stupid" the idea that Labour would fight a general election opposed to the generally popular view that there should be an in-out referendum on EU membership. He wanted the party to avoid committing to HS2 and instead use the £50bn so released on commitments to more popular priorities of the general public. It's now also known that Balls was concerned at Miliband's timid (and self-defeating) attempts to convince the public that Labour would rigidly conform to Conservative borrowing plans. He wanted Labour to make its warning of further Conservative cuts such as those planned to welfare benefits a more central feature of the 2015 campaign, judging that the public had no appetite for another 5 years of austerity, an insight born out by developments since.
I am not going to get into an argument with those on this site who consider such policies to be wrong. I happen to I think they would have been right - but that is beside the point. The point is that those more populist stances would have helped Labour a great deal in 2015 and could well have made the difference between winning and losing then.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
The £12 billion only becomes a factor if the economy performs in a way that allows current expenditure to be sustained without extra borrowing or higher taxes. If GDP suffers, then the £12 billion will be plugging holes.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Yes. There is a perfectly sane route to EU membership for the UK. It's called Rejoin.
We exit, we don't like it, the next Labour/LD govt promises a new vote. They win.
We could be back in, inside less than a decade, with no terminal and horrible damage done to UK democracy.
Failing to leave would be catastrophic for our democracy.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
I thought the UK had no veto over what the eurozone countries did?
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
I doubt we will rejoin. It will be too much hassle for all concerned. After a coupole of years, though, you'd expect things to get quite cuddly.
Yes, quite. And of course the UK's return to the SM and maybe even CU, in an EFTA type deal, has the enormous advantage of *Not requiring a referendum*
I can easily see the next left government campaigning on this, and winning. And in we go. Could happen within 5 years. Remainers need to calm down, accept the loss of the 2016 vote, and get working on EEA status.
So long as we can get free movement back, although, of course, no-one can ‘free move’ without a job to go to!
Apparently the DUP might be going back to no 10 later this evening for another meeting .
Not sure whether this is good or bad news for a deal.
What time? I've been moving out of Euros into GBP recently (see previous posts) and I wasn't intending to move more tonight, but if DUP add or withdraw their imprimatur, it'll affect the price.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
lol. I wish the Europeans well - a growing Europe is good for Britain - but NOTHING they have done indicates the political will is in place to fix the eurozone's problems. Indeed they may be unfixable: they are in the DNA of the project.
IF we get a deal and if Boris wins a big majority on he back of it (and 5 years in power) I'd offer good money that Britain would grow faster than the big EU three in those years.
Boris will cut taxes and boost the economy, like Trump.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
lol. I wish the Europeans well - a growing Europe is good for Britain - but NOTHING they have done indicates the political will is in place to fix the eurozone's problems. Indeed they may be unfixable: they are in the DNA of the project.
IF we get a deal and if Boris wins a big majority on he back of it (and 5 years in power) I'd offer good money that Britain would grow faster than the big EU three in those years.
Boris will cut taxes and boost the economy, like Trump.
Manufacturing in the US is already in recession. Tax cuts are a sugar high that dies out quickly, as Trump is now finding. Eurosceptics have claimed the demise of the Euro is just around the corner for almost a decade. They haven't been right yet.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
And their friends the racists of Bulgaria?
I am a Jewish football fan. Are you trying to convince me we don't have racism among English crowds?
Apparently the DUP might be going back to no 10 later this evening for another meeting .
Not sure whether this is good or bad news for a deal.
What time? I've been moving out of Euros into GBP recently (see previous posts) and I wasn't intending to move more tonight, but if DUP add or withdraw their imprimatur, it'll affect the price.
It’s on polhome , not confirmed yet . It might not happen .
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just thinuo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
lol. I wish the economy, like Trump.
Manufacturing in the US is already in recession. Tax cuts are a sugar high that dies out quickly, as Trump is now finding. Eurosceptics have claimed the demise of the Euro is just around the corner for almost a decade. They haven't been right yet.
I've always said the sceptics were delusional about the euro collapsing.
The problem is a mirror image of Brussels' misunderstanding of Britain.
The British don't comprehend how much the euro means to the elites across the continent. It is the guarantor of EU unity and peace. No one can leave the currency, so they are all locked in it together (sometimes nightmarishly so). it is now the primary symbol of European-ness.
It would take a major global war to change that. Maybe not even then. Alien invasion maybe.
And now I have to go and pack for New Orleans. Bon soir.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
I doubt we will rejoin. It will be too much hassle for all concerned. After a coupole of years, though, you'd expect things to get quite cuddly.
Yes, quite. And of course the UK's return to the SM and maybe even CU, in an EFTA type deal, has the enormous advantage of *Not requiring a referendum*
I can easily see the next left government campaigning on this, and winning. And in we go. Could happen within 5 years. Remainers need to calm down, accept the loss of the 2016 vote, and get working on EEA status.
The Customs Union will be a non starter for reasons I have explained on here too many times before
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
No. We will just spend a proportion of the billions we get from extra GDP on that, plus have a huge amount leftover for the NHS.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
lol. I wish the Europeans well - a growing Europe is good for Britain - but NOTHING they have done indicates the political will is in place to fix the eurozone's problems. Indeed they may be unfixable: they are in the DNA of the project.
IF we get a deal and if Boris wins a big majority on he back of it (and 5 years in power) I'd offer good money that Britain would grow faster than the big EU three in those years.
Boris will cut taxes and boost the economy, like Trump.
Manufacturing in the US is already in recession. Tax cuts are a sugar high that dies out quickly, as Trump is now finding. Eurosceptics have claimed the demise of the Euro is just around the corner for almost a decade. They haven't been right yet.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
And their friends the racists of Bulgaria?
I am a Jewish football fan. Are you trying to convince me we don't have racism among English crowds?
Of course we do. Shamefully.
What we don’t have (thankfully) is England fans at Wembley giving the Nazi salute in international qualifiers.
What is this wonderful deal that people are coalescing around? It is a disgrace that anybody signs up for a deal which is worse than the one we currently have. Supporting any deal just to get it over is insane and close to criminal.
Good evening all. Had the pleasure of listening to Ed Balls speak for half an hour or so earlier today. Perceptive, entertaining and self deprecating much like his book. The contrast between him and the current Labour leadership is marked, and decidedly in his favour.
Do I detect a whiff of desperation from Remainers on here this afternoon?
Certainly my opinion of Balls has grown since he left office. He pushed for Labour to adopt different positions to those adopted by Miliband, all of which with hindsight turn out to have been prescient. He described as "stupid" the idea that Labour would fight a general election opposed to the generally popular view that there should be an in-out referendum on EU membership. He wanted the party to avoid committing to HS2 and instead use the £50bn so released on commitments to more popular priorities of the general public. It's now also known that Balls was concerned at Miliband's timid (and self-defeating) attempts to convince the public that Labour would rigidly conform to Conservative borrowing plans. He wanted Labour to make its warning of further Conservative cuts such as those planned to welfare benefits a more central feature of the 2015 campaign, judging that the public had no appetite for another 5 years of austerity, an insight born out by developments since.
I am not going to get into an argument with those on this site who consider such policies to be wrong. I happen to I think they would have been right - but that is beside the point. The point is that those more populist stances would have helped Labour a great deal in 2015 and could well have made the difference between winning and losing then.
He made a number of interesting observations. Clearly he's very proud of the role he played in keeping the UK out of the Euro and in achieving BOE independence and the minimum wage. Those comments were in the context of reforms/views which are now more or less embedded in the national consensus. He mentioned the Trade Union reforms of the 1970's in the same section!
One of his main themes was around the huge benefits of achieving consensus between the 2 main parties. I found this rather ironic given that his mentor, Gordon Brown, was intent on destroying the Tory party.
He's a good listen, and although I'd be most unlikely to vote Labour I'd welcome him back into politics. He speaks enthusiastically about the power of politicians to do good and I sensed we've not seen the last of him on the political stage.
What is this wonderful deal that people are coalescing around? It is a disgrace that anybody signs up for a deal which is worse than the one we currently have. Supporting any deal just to get it over is insane and close to criminal.
The current one was rejected in a referendum. Perhaps you missed it?
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
No. We will just spend a proportion of the billions we get from extra GDP on that, plus have a huge amount leftover for the NHS.
Sure everyone knows raising taxes to send to Albania raises GDP.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
And their friends the racists of Bulgaria?
I am a Jewish football fan. Are you trying to convince me we don't have racism among English crowds?
That’s the problem with going to Spurs away games. It’s sometimes surprising what people can find offensive in the away teams or fans.
What is this wonderful deal that people are coalescing around? It is a disgrace that anybody signs up for a deal which is worse than the one we currently have. Supporting any deal just to get it over is insane and close to criminal.
The current one was rejected in a referendum. Perhaps you missed it?
Reading the tea leaves, the question arises: will 20 Labour MPs hand Johnson a landslide victory at the next GE ?
The main thing killing the Labour Party right now is Brexit. The Party is standing in the middle of the road and getting hit by cars going both ways. Taking Brexit off the table forces the politics back onto economics, public services and inequality, where the Tories are much, much weaker.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
Manufacturing in the US is already in recession. Tax cuts are a sugar high that dies out quickly, as Trump is now finding. Eurosceptics have claimed the demise of the Euro is just around the corner for almost a decade. They haven't been right yet.
“Tax cuts are a sugar high”
Er...
And, of course, QE and negative interest rates are such a sustainable diet for an economy.
What is this wonderful deal that people are coalescing around? It is a disgrace that anybody signs up for a deal which is worse than the one we currently have. Supporting any deal just to get it over is insane and close to criminal.
The deal is crap compared to anything we have now and likely the FTA won’t be up to much if the Tories stay in charge but as a Remainer the choices on offer are either a deal and orderly exit with an election deciding what the future relationship might look like or a no deal catastrophe.
Because sorry to say my faith in the public not voting for the Tories on a no deal platform isn’t great .
Reading the tea leaves, the question arises: will 20 Labour MPs hand Johnson a landslide victory at the next GE ?
The main thing killing the Labour Party right now is Brexit. The Party is standing in the middle of the road and getting hit by cars going both ways. Taking Brexit off the table forces the politics back onto economics, public services and inequality, where the Tories are much, much weaker.
On that basis, Labour would vote for any deal. No brainer.
Reading the tea leaves, the question arises: will 20 Labour MPs hand Johnson a landslide victory at the next GE ?
The main thing killing the Labour Party right now is Brexit. The Party is standing in the middle of the road and getting hit by cars going both ways. Taking Brexit off the table forces the politics back onto economics, public services and inequality, where the Tories are much, much weaker.
Having an utterly useless and despised leader doesn’t help either.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
No. We will just spend a proportion of the billions we get from extra GDP on that, plus have a huge amount leftover for the NHS.
Sure everyone knows raising taxes to send to Albania raises GDP.
Why don't you compare UK exports to the A10 economies now to 20 years ago?
What is this wonderful deal that people are coalescing around? It is a disgrace that anybody signs up for a deal which is worse than the one we currently have. Supporting any deal just to get it over is insane and close to criminal.
The current one was rejected in a referendum. Perhaps you missed it?
What is this wonderful deal that people are coalescing around? It is a disgrace that anybody signs up for a deal which is worse than the one we currently have. Supporting any deal just to get it over is insane and close to criminal.
The current one was rejected in a referendum. Perhaps you missed it?
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
No. We will just spend a proportion of the billions we get from extra GDP on that, plus have a huge amount leftover for the NHS.
Sure everyone knows raising taxes to send to Albania raises GDP.
Why don't you compare UK exports to the A10 economies now to 20 years ago?
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
I think we are all tempted to think others see the world through our own prism. On that basis, I may Be wrong, but I don’t think you’re describing the views of plumbing apprentices, car mechanics, junior soldiers, or my local hairdressers. I don’t think most of those “ younger Brits” feel particularly European. I don’t disagree there’s a group who feel as you suggest; but I think it’s a subset. I think most won’t want to think about Europe again for a long time.
Reading the tea leaves, the question arises: will 20 Labour MPs hand Johnson a landslide victory at the next GE ?
The main thing killing the Labour Party right now is Brexit. The Party is standing in the middle of the road and getting hit by cars going both ways. Taking Brexit off the table forces the politics back onto economics, public services and inequality, where the Tories are much, much weaker.
If Johnson really gets this done, he can look forward to 400 Tory MPs at the next GE. Even the ERG will be neutered.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
No. We will just spend a proportion of the billions we get from extra GDP on that, plus have a huge amount leftover for the NHS.
Sure everyone knows raising taxes to send to Albania raises GDP.
Why don't you compare UK exports to the A10 economies now to 20 years ago?
Anyone able to tell us how long the transition is in their wonderful deal? I think it’s still 31/21/2020 so we now have 14 months to negotiate the next stage, over.... it hasn’t even begun.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
I think we are all tempted to think others see the world through our own prism. On that basis, I may Be wrong, but I don’t think you’re describing the views of plumbing apprentices, car mechanics, junior soldiers, or my local hairdressers. I don’t think most of those “ younger Brits” feel particularly European. I don’t disagree there’s a group who feel as you suggest; but I think it’s a subset. I think most won’t want to think about Europe again for a long time.
You will increasingly find Lithuanians and Romanians work side by side with young working class Brits in those barber shops and garages. I hear more and more Poles displaying features of cockney accents. Eastern Europeans are integrating into the British working class, just as Afro-Caribbean people did before them. They will intermingle and intermarry and increasingly have in-laws from Tallinn and Naples.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
But we will have adjusted to not paying £12Bn per annum - that will be spent elsewhere.
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
"Which hospitals would you close in order to go back into the EU, Rejoiners?"
I can see the slogans now... "We spend £350mn/week on our NHS. Let's spend it on Eastern Europe instead."
No. We will just spend a proportion of the billions we get from extra GDP on that, plus have a huge amount leftover for the NHS.
Sure everyone knows raising taxes to send to Albania raises GDP.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Yes. There is a perfectly sane route to EU membership for the UK. It's called Rejoin.
We exit, we don't like it, the next Labour/LD govt promises a new vote. They win.
We could be back in, inside less than a decade, with no terminal and horrible damage done to UK democracy.
Failing to leave would be catastrophic for our democracy.
I've heard so much about "our democracy" on this site over the last few years. I'm hoping that when this Brexit stuff is over we might actually get one of these democracy things. You know, with votes that actually count no matter where you live.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
I think the opposite is true. All the data shows that populism is more popular with younger age groups in most countries. Older voters are most likely to believe in forging consensus.
Reading the tea leaves, the question arises: will 20 Labour MPs hand Johnson a landslide victory at the next GE ?
The main thing killing the Labour Party right now is Brexit. The Party is standing in the middle of the road and getting hit by cars going both ways. Taking Brexit off the table forces the politics back onto economics, public services and inequality, where the Tories are much, much weaker.
If Johnson really gets this done, he can look forward to 400 Tory MPs at the next GE. Even the ERG will be neutered.
Nope. The public never give credit for what is done. They want to focus on what is next. Ask Winston Churchill. The question for Labour is if they want Brexit to be the pressing general election decision or public services.
Boris can call a vote on an amendment to the FTPA and a simple majority with the SNP and no doubt Lib Dems would cook Corbyn's goose
I think about a 25% chance of that route working without Labour's support.
1) SNP v unlikely to vote for it - they'll say they're in favour of an election in principle, but when it comes down to it will have a phobia of being seen to help the Tories - remember they didn't even support May's motion for an early election in 2017 because "Scotland will never dance to a Tory PM's tune"
2) The Lib Dems might vote for it, but even then a majority in the Commons wouldn't be certain, AND the Lib Dems would also support amendments to the motion that would harm the Tories in an election (votes at 16, votes for EU nationals)
3) Even if it does get through the Commons, the Lords could vote it down.
1) - The SNP will never have a better time for a GE
2) - The Lib Dems may try amendments but any change would not be possible without legislation that would not have time
3) - As has been said the cross benchers would see it pass
But do you not think for one minute how this would portay labour, the official opposition doing everything possible to prevent facing the electorate
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
The British don’t like a bad loser.
Remain could get hammered in a second referendum, provided there is a credible sensible deal on the table.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Yes. There is a perfectly sane route to EU membership for the UK. It's called Rejoin.
We exit, we don't like it, the next Labour/LD govt promises a new vote. They win.
We could be back in, inside less than a decade, with no terminal and horrible damage done to UK democracy.
Failing to leave would be catastrophic for our democracy.
I've heard so much about "our democracy" on this site over the last few years. I'm hoping that when this Brexit stuff is over we might actually get one of these democracy things. You know, with votes that actually count no matter where you live.
Any deal of course should be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
Agreed
Do you realise how mad this sounds?
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
Losses are temporary. Demographics are on our side.
Just think about that. Rejoining means a very different proposition to the one today, and argued from (probably) the position of a secure trade deal with the EU that requires none of that. A large chunk of the current remain vote is more of a vote for the status quo/don’t rock the boat vote. I think, if we leave, we’re unlikely to rejoin.
But time will tell.
I disagree. I think this is fundamentally a matter of identity. And younger Brits are far more likely to see themselves as akin to their friends from Poland, Sweden and France. If Brexit Britain turns out to be a slower growing country, pressure will build and build for Rejoin.
Britain doesn't have to grow very fast to grow faster than Germany, France and Italy, as things stand.
Once Britain is out, the Euro countries will be able to get through the necessary reforms to make the Eurozone work better. Then growth will return. And look at the UK economic performance pre- and post-1973.
I think that throughout the EU including the UK, we are entering a period with long term anaemic growth compared to previous decades. This is due to a mix of demographics and of temporal trends. Long term trend growth of 1-1.5% will be fairly typical. Growing out of debt and slowdowns will be difficult.
Really reliable unbiased source then, can she tell us what the deal is rather than spout shit?
It’s an astonishing claim and totally implausible.
Does anyone really believe Nadine Dorries is on speaking terms with any Labour MPs?
However, it wouldn’t surprise me if she was right. When Labour reject heir own proposals as meaningless drivel you know all they care about is themselves, as befits a bunch of third rate fat cat stooges who got here by family wealth and contacts.
Reading the tea leaves, the question arises: will 20 Labour MPs hand Johnson a landslide victory at the next GE ?
The main thing killing the Labour Party right now is Brexit. The Party is standing in the middle of the road and getting hit by cars going both ways. Taking Brexit off the table forces the politics back onto economics, public services and inequality, where the Tories are much, much weaker.
If Johnson really gets this done, he can look forward to 400 Tory MPs at the next GE. Even the ERG will be neutered.
I'm far from sure about that.
If Boris gets the deal done and gets parliament to agree then it is a big achievement. Someone here pointed out that the country didn't rally behind Churchill post ww2. The well known 'very effective' response to Clem.
He will have done well though, and all but the ghasts will accept that. The Queen's Speech was interesting - there was good stuff. It's what's there that'll probably count most.
Labour, as exemplared by the wibbling Kinnock Jnr on the BBC at the moment have been total fuckwits in all of this.
Comments
An excellent example is Gerard Ratner until he blew it
We've coming to the end - maybe - of a three year national nightmare. Suddenly there is light at the end of the night.
You really want to start it all over again, with added bile, poison and democracy-cancelling, with ANOTHER crazy, divisive referendum, which sends everyone madder than ever??
This is the famous definition of insanity.
No, if we are lucky enough to get a deal that parliament can accept, then for fuck's sake we all need to seize it, and draw a line, at long last.
Remain lost. And there it is.
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh, no
Remain could get hammered in a second referendum, provided there is a credible sensible deal on the table.
Pause.
"Sorry... I've always wanted to see that done properly..."
We exit, we don't like it, the next Labour/LD govt promises a new vote. They win.
We could be back in, inside less than a decade, with no terminal and horrible damage done to UK democracy.
But time will tell.
Not sure whether this is good or bad news for a deal.
I can easily see the next left government campaigning on this, and winning. And in we go. Could happen within 5 years. Remainers need to calm down, accept the loss of the 2016 vote, and get working on EEA status.
As an ardent Remainer I couldn’t sign upto the Euro , I am as pro EU as you can get but totally against the Euro if that makes any sense !
Taxes will have to rise or cuts made.
Plus re employing troughing MEPs.
Tough sell.
I am not going to get into an argument with those on this site who consider such policies to be wrong. I happen to I think they would have been right - but that is beside the point. The point is that those more populist stances would have helped Labour a great deal in 2015 and could well have made the difference between winning and losing then.
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1184161694412607488?s=21
I will support any Deal 100%. To the hilt.
IF we get a deal and if Boris wins a big majority on he back of it (and 5 years in power) I'd offer good money that Britain would grow faster than the big EU three in those years.
Boris will cut taxes and boost the economy, like Trump.
The problem is a mirror image of Brussels' misunderstanding of Britain.
The British don't comprehend how much the euro means to the elites across the continent. It is the guarantor of EU unity and peace. No one can leave the currency, so they are all locked in it together (sometimes nightmarishly so). it is now the primary symbol of European-ness.
It would take a major global war to change that. Maybe not even then. Alien invasion maybe.
And now I have to go and pack for New Orleans. Bon soir.
https://www.tes.com/news/aqas-gcse-and-level-blunders
Er...
What we don’t have (thankfully) is England fans at Wembley giving the Nazi salute in international qualifiers.
One of his main themes was around the huge benefits of achieving consensus between the 2 main parties. I found this rather ironic given that his mentor, Gordon Brown, was intent on destroying the Tory party.
He's a good listen, and although I'd be most unlikely to vote Labour I'd welcome him back into politics. He speaks enthusiastically about the power of politicians to do good and I sensed we've not seen the last of him on the political stage.
There’s no need for nineteen of them. Jeremy Corbyn’s doing perfectly well on his own.
Manufacturing in the US is already in recession. Tax cuts are a sugar high that dies out quickly, as Trump is now finding. Eurosceptics have claimed the demise of the Euro is just around the corner for almost a decade. They haven't been right yet.
“Tax cuts are a sugar high”
Er...
And, of course, QE and negative interest rates are such a sustainable diet for an economy.
Because sorry to say my faith in the public not voting for the Tories on a no deal platform isn’t great .
Yet......
(i) If 20 Labour MPs help the deal over the line, who will be able to force a GE and when will they be able to do this?
(ii) If Mr Johnson is being perceived by many to have sacrificed NI to neverending vassaldom, will he really win in a landslide?
https://twitter.com/futureidentity/status/1180802882339254272?s=20
Does anyone really believe Nadine Dorries is on speaking terms with any Labour MPs?
However, it wouldn’t surprise me if she was right. When Labour reject heir own proposals as meaningless drivel you know all they care about is themselves, as befits a bunch of third rate fat cat stooges who got here by family wealth and contacts.
If Boris gets the deal done and gets parliament to agree then it is a big achievement. Someone here pointed out that the country didn't rally behind Churchill post ww2. The well known 'very effective' response to Clem.
He will have done well though, and all but the ghasts will accept that. The Queen's Speech was interesting - there was good stuff. It's what's there that'll probably count most.
Labour, as exemplared by the wibbling Kinnock Jnr on the BBC at the moment have been total fuckwits in all of this.