politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make it 6/4 that there’ll be another Brexit referend

Morris_Dancer said:

On voter ID:
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1183722196117737478

And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?

I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?

Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?

Noo said:

Burgessian said:

malcolmg said:

Burgessian said:

ozymandias said:

Byronic said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.

Does that make me an honorary Nit?

I agree.

The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence

The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing.
This will not end well.

But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.

Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?

You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.

Are you seriously suggesting there will be no negotiations about access to fishing grounds etc etc. The negotiations would be long and arduous and the EU would have Scotland over a barrel. Only a moron would be incapable of seeing that.

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

Confected outrage.

If only there was no substantial electoral fraud.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-gives-job-as-campaign-chief-to-leftwinger-guilty-of-voter-fraud-a3684296.html Corbyn's reward to an electoral fraudster, promotion.

Corbyn then deserts the moral high ground by promoting the wretch.

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

Cyclefree said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On voter ID:
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1183722196117737478

And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?

I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?

Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?

It's new as there hasn't been a requirement for ID in the past.

Theuniondivvie said:

Noo said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?

It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.

The second Quebec referendum was held 15 years after the first, not 5 years after the first ie a whole generation later

Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.

One insider said: "It's like nothing I have ever experienced before. John McDonnell has really had his fill of a lot of the people around Jeremy."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/john-mcdonnell/news/107251/excl-john-mcdonnell-and-len

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

Anabobazina said:

Gabs2 said:

Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.

Weird question, as you appear to be implying that drinking and ordering by mail are metropolitan elitist signifiers.

Is it Cristal champagne in the parcel?

I was actually worried there was some practice in the shires I wasn't familiar with.

Theuniondivvie said:

Noo said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?

It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.

Yet desperate not to allow a democratic vote they insist they will win, says it all.

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

An amphibious invasion in the Basque country to take them by surprise.

Gabs2 said:

Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.

Well if you look about 90 I doubt you will be asked for ID for alcohol.
Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

HYUFD has already demonstrated his comprehension of military matters during the discussion about Syria.
There's no need to embarrass him further.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.

Flanner said:

oxfordsimon said:

As long as the legislation also does all it can to eliminate postal vote fraud, we will have a better system at the end of the process than we do now.

No we won't. There's not a smidgeon of a scintilla of evidence that personation is a problem in Britain today (unlike in Ireland a century ago where it was rife).

But there's ample evidence modern Brits are reluctant to vote, compared with 50 years ago.

So wasting time trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and using a solution that will inevitably further discourage voting, is an utter misuse of legislative and officialdom's time.

Not as great a waste as the whole Brexit delusion - but still irresponsible misgovernment on a scale only Johnson could get someone to dream up.

Why is the system of voter registration that is used - successfully - in NI so wrong for the rest of the UK? There is no evidence that it has discouraged voter participation in NI - so why do you think that the rest of us won't be able to cope with it?

Ensuring that those who are entitled to vote are the ones that are actually voting is at the heart of what I want in an electoral system.

We have, in recent years, moved to individual rather than household based voter registration - which was a step in the right direction.

We should always be striving to have the best systems in place.

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.

Cyclefree said:

MTimT said:

Cyclefree said:

I am too tired to argue but that must rank as one of the stupidest ways of deciding something so important.

You don’t even know what the fucking deal is let alone its implications. It would probably take 5 hours to read let alone understand the legal text and any Bill implementing it. But hey let’s vote on it on the basis of total ignorance and screw those who are affected by it.

Jesus wept.

Cyclefree, you know I respect you. Howe continued paralysis.

Well I respect you too. But with the greatest respect that sounds like the stupidest way possible to decide something complex with far-reaching implications for us all.

The alternative is not paralysis. It is to take time to read and understand properly the implications of whatever new deal is arrived to and then explain it to the voters and then take a decision and explain that to the voters.

It is precisely because the country is divided that this effort, however hard and time-consuming it may be, is essential.

That is what politics is - an attempt to find the ground on which a decision can be made. It is precisely the opposite of what May’s government did and doubling down on what she did - trying to bully something through on the basis of exhaustion and exasperation is catastrophically stupid. All that means is that at the first whiff of a problem any consent for it will vanish.

Parliament has simply run out of road on Brexit.

Your approach was valid in 2016 but the splits, the deeply dug trecnhes and the personal emnities in today's Parliamnet mean there is no chance of taking the considered view working. The Parliament is dysfunctional and there will be no unified consensus to explain x y or z to voters. All we have atm is a series of factions advancing their own agenda and a jaded electorate looking the deed done.

There is little voter appetite for more time and no guarantee that more time will give an answer. the time for doing all the correct things has been squandered. Too late.

Meanwhile, in actual propaganda news:
https://twitter.com/pearswick/status/1183625488830353408

Between this and Blizzard's craven approach recently, I do wonder how extensive this influence is.

oxfordsimon said:

Cyclefree said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On voter ID:
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1183722196117737478

And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?

I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?

Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?

It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.

And precisely what is this identity document?

Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.

DecrepitJohnL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On voter ID:
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1183722196117737478

And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?

I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?

Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?

It would consist of the same thing NI has used for three decades and was rolled out at trials across the country in the past.

Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?

Northern Ireland has a long tradition of personation. The mainland has not. Therefore, this is not designed to cure the problem we do not have. It is probably intended to suppress the Labour vote. However, the Yougov graphs linked earlier suggest it might actually be the Leaver vote that is most impacted.

There have been increasing reports of personation and other problems with postal ballots etc with IIRC judicial reviews showing flaws that 'would shame a banana republic'. Plus given there are no checks to prevent personation we won't actually know how big a problem it is.

It won't suppress any vote since anyone can get the necessary ID free of charge. Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?

Philip_Thompson said:

Noo said:

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?

Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?

Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?

Cyclefree said:

oxfordsimon said:

Cyclefree said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On voter ID:
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1183722196117737478

And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?

I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?

Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?

It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.

And precisely what is this identity document?

Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.

A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQs

NickPalmer said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.

I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)

The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.

There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.

If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.

It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.

The voter ID cards in NI are free to everyone. This sort of system works - within the UK. It has done since the 80s.

And there is no evidence from NI that it has created disenfranchisement along the lines that people have been claiming will happen if it were applied to the rest of the UK

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

**** me! Are you, Cummings and Boris planning a military intervention to bolster Brexit now?

Philip_Thompson said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On voter ID:
https://twitter.com/anthonyjwells/status/1183722196117737478

And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?

I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?

Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?

It would consist of the same thing NI has used for three decades and was rolled out at trials across the country in the past.

Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?

Northern Ireland has a long tradition of personation. The mainland has not. Therefore, this is not designed to cure the problem we do not have. It is probably intended to suppress the Labour vote. However, the Yougov graphs linked earlier suggest it might actually be the Leaver vote that is most impacted.

There have been increasing reports of personation and other problems with postal ballots etc with IIRC judicial reviews showing flaws that 'would shame a banana republic'. Plus given there are no checks to prevent personation we won't actually know how big a problem it is.

It won't suppress any vote since anyone can get the necessary ID free of charge. Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?

Classic muddying of waters. The flaws you describe were in cases dealing with postal voting not voting in person which these proposals target.

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.

LOL!!

You're nothing if not game!

Not quite sure what would be left of Gibraltar after all that 😂

NickPalmer said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.

I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)

The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.

There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.

If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.

It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.

Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.

Foxy said:

Gabs2 said:

TOPPING said:

Anabobazina said:

Noo said:

Burgessian said:

malcolmg said:

Burgessian said:

ozymandias said:

Byronic said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Casino_Royale said:

Theuniondivvie said:

When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.

Does that make me an honorary Nit?

I agree.

The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence

The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing.
This will not end well.

But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.

Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?

You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.

of seeing that.

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on heree.

Confected outrage.

Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.

I think the issue is that a lot of small towns on the coast have fishing at the heart of them and don't have much reason for existence if the industry dies. So it is inevitably going to have more political salience than a retail store in the middle of booming London.

Though inshore fishermen often do a lot of shellfish for export.

One bonus of Brexit is that the loss of the EU shellfish markets will be good for those of us who like shellfish, and sea bottom conservation. Scallop rakes are quite destructive.

we need to create more marine reserve areas. nows the chance to do it.

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

**** me! Are you, Cummings and Boris planning a military intervention to bolster Brexit now?

I don't remember any stories about invading Francoist Spain in my old Commando and Victor comics. Do you?

justin124 said:

rottenborough said:

Re: mortgage mums.

I knew Kinnock had lost in '92 on GE day, when I was told by two mate's wives separately that they had voted Tory. Both absolute swing voters. Both worried about mortgage and tax.

Which struck me as odd, since Major had managed to get interest rates to something like 15% at one point. But there you go.

The 15% interest rates came a few months later in September 1992 in Major's failed attempt to keep Sterling inside the ERM.

Oh yes. You are correct. Duh! Showing my age.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.

Why don't we just attack Cadiz with fire ships?

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Noo said:

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?

Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?

Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?

Our country is the United Kingdom.

I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.

In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.

Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.

UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000

UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1

Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical.
The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.

Cyclefree said:

NickPalmer said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.

I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)

The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.

There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.

If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.

It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.

Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.

Surprising. Many City offices require (very irritatingly) ID.

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.

Why don't we just attack Cadiz with fire ships?

That's the middle ages version of a tactical nuke on Bilbao port

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Noo said:

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?

Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?

Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?

Our country is the United Kingdom.

I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.

In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.

Funny, it's not in rugby, football, golf, cricket, the legal system, healthcare, education, the list goes on.

I think you are confusing 'country' with 'nation state'.

Noo said:

I've been coming to the conclusion that people who are still in favour of Brexit are a strong distillation of people who don't understand why processes are important. It's a strong overlap with the traditional right-wing approach to things: criminals? Hang em! Baddies in foreign lands? Nuke em! Don't like the ECJ? Leave without a deal!
Complex issues, simple answers that don't work. And if it's shown to not* be working, fuck it, go faster.

* split infinitive especially for LuckyGuy1883

I'm honoured.

As I am sure I am one of the people you've offered this crude generalisation analysis of, let me give you an additional insight. I have no problem with people saying that issues are complex and require complex and potentially protracted discussion before they can be solved, IF they can be solved. However, that needs to come *after* the simple solution has been applied and found to be lacking, not before. Human beings have not changed much over epochs, and our behaviour is largely based on the consequences we anticipate. To take law and order - it we want to stop people breaking the law, as a first step, breaking the law should be made a less attractive option than not breaking the law. That may work - it has usually been found to work in the past. If it doesn't work, then a more complex solution should of course be looked at. But too say it's all too difficult and we don't understand the problem, before this has been applied, is a nonsense.

By the same token, it is utterly absurd that Theresa May negotiated our withdrawal from the EU without being prepared (literally and figuratively) to take the country out of the EU without an agreement being ratified. The human dynamics of that situation could be explained to (and by) a five year old. Does that mean the EU negotiations would have gone swimmingly if No Deal had been on the table? No. But again, at least put the basics in place before you complain that it's all just too difficult and complex.

dyedwoolie said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.

UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000

UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1

Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical.
The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.

Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.

UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000

UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1

UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0

UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522

Binkov's battlegrounds is definitive (until @Dura_Ace shows up).

UK vs Spain total war
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeh-PtHZh0

Spain invades Gibraltar
www.youtube.com/watch?v=heNh3t76YAs

Armed forces comparison, UK vs Spain
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjq5_8gU5w

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

NickPalmer said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.

I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)

The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.

There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.

If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.

It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.

Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.

Good luck to any young person nowadays with Challenge 25 in trying to buy alcohol. I'm 37 and still get asked sometimes. Ironically I got asked more when I was over 25 than I did when I was 18 as that's when companies [and the government] seemed to get arsey about Challenge 25.

You're 37?????

Really? No. I thought all this was an A-level project for you!

I.D. for the few not the many.

https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1183774744061104129

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?

First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.

LOL!!

You're nothing if not game!

Best yo be prepared for any eventuality

Cyclefree said:

NickPalmer said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.

I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)

The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.

There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.

If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.

It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.

Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.

I always have to use it when picking up parcels

DecrepitJohnL said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Burgessian said:

HYUFD said:

WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/

If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either

The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.

Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon

Gibraltar?

The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon

You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.

UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000

UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1

UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0

UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522

Binkov's battlegrounds is definitive (until @Dura_Ace shows up).

UK vs Spain total war
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeh-PtHZh0

Spain invades Gibraltar
www.youtube.com/watch?v=heNh3t76YAs

Armed forces comparison, UK vs Spain
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjq5_8gU5w

Good grief!

HYUFD said:

UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000

UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1

UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0

UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522

All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...


Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Noo said:

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?

Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?

Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?

Our country is the United Kingdom.

I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.

In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.

So you don't know. Fair enough.

justin124 said:

Carnyx said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Noo said:

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?

Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?

Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?

Our country is the United Kingdom.

I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.

In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.

Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.

My country is Great Britain.

justin124 said:

Carnyx said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Noo said:

Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.

fish

Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?

fish

Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.

My country is Great Britain.

That's neither a country nor a nation state.

It's an island.