Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Funny, it's not in rugby, football, golf, cricket, the legal system, healthcare, education, the list goes on.
I think you are confusing 'country' with 'nation state'.
No I mean sovereign country which has a definition under international law and what the UK is and what Scotland would have been had it voted for independence. Which is why it was the question.
Why would the referendum ask "Should Scotland be an independent country?" if it already was one. Scotland is a country within a country but under international law our country is the United Kingdom.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
I think you would end up with the modern equivalent of the Lines of Torres Vedras - only not so successful (imagine what Napoleon's generals could do with a battery of MLRS against a fixed fortified position).
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Well if you look about 90 I doubt you will be asked for ID for alcohol. Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.
Very true - Royal Mail don't insist on photo ID.
There are still a lot of people who don't have parcels to collect either - maybe just a few percent, but that adds up to millions of people.
Last time I tried to pick up a bloody parcel from Royal Mail they actually REFUSED to accept my driving licence. They insisted on the bloody red card which I had left at home. Maybe they have now changed that deranged policy.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
I wouldn't get too excited. It's not as if the bill is going to pass the current parliament.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
Surprising. Many City offices require (very irritatingly) ID.
Work ID, sure. A pass to get into a building. But ID to do normal stuff - no. And when I don’t go into an office regularly - which is most of the time - I need no ID at all.
And in any case I don’t have to prove my identity at all. Just hand over a business card and they give me a pass. I could announce my name as Meghan Markle and they’d hand over a pass.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical. The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
They might be forced to eat British expat, if it wasn't for that long border with France...
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
No - you are wrong in that.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be g.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.
Said ships now have said planes.
The problem of attacking the Spanish base at Rota nrl Cadiz is that it is the European base for the US Navy.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
fish
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
fish
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
My country is Great Britain.
That's neither a country nor a nation state.
It's an island.
England is but a combination of Wessex, Mercia, Anglia , Northumbria , Cornwall etc - a range of ancestries .Anglia has a great deal of Scandinavian heritage.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical. The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.
Said ships now have said planes.
Er, no. QE hasn't had the ops trials for the F-35Bs yet (fide MoD (RN)) and PoW hasn't even got to Pompey yet to finish her sea trials yet, has she, never mind embark her aviastion wing?
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be g.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.
Said ships now have said planes.
The problem of attacking the Spanish base at Rota nrl Cadiz is that it is the European base for the US Navy.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
They might be forced to eat British expat, if it wasn't for that long border with France...
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
No - you are wrong in that.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden
So if you are already on the electoral register you don’t need a card or do you?
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be g.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.
Said ships now have said planes.
The problem of attacking the Spanish base at Rota nrl Cadiz is that it is the European base for the US Navy.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..
The UK military is bigger than the Spanish and Irish militaries combined (not that Ireland is going to invade County Antrim anyway), Spain would be having a Catalan insurrection too
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
No - you are wrong in that.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden
So if you are already on the electoral register you don’t need a card or do you?
This really isn't difficult to understand. You need a card only if you don't have one of the other forms of approved ID. And as long as the photo still looks like you, the ID doesn't have to be currently valid. So you can use an expired one - without having to apply for a new card.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal Navy
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical. The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.
Said ships now have said planes.
Keep up, one of said ships does, but 'Queen Elizabeth is expected to reach initial operational capability by 2020', other said ship does not and will 'be fully ready for front-line duties around the globe from 2023'. PB chickenhawks should be on top of this stuff.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.
Still doesn’t explain why there are no proposals to address a very real problem. Curious that.
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invaders
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
No - you are wrong in that.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden
So if you are already on the electoral register you don’t need a card or do you?
This really isn't difficult to understand. You need a card only if you don't have one of the other forms of approved ID. And as long as the photo still looks like you, the ID doesn't have to be currently valid. So you can use an expired one - without having to apply for a new card.
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invaders
They might hold out quite long, though, given that they've got mountains of Serrano ham maturing, and more than one pig per head of population to replenish the hams.
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
Sorry, I forgot that. My apologies.
We are in perfect agreement! Well, nearly perfect,,
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?
From the Guardian- 'David Howarth, a Cambridge law professor and former Lib Dem MP, has been in touch to say losing a vote on the Queen’s speech does have at least one practical effect. He explains:
You might be interested to know that there would be a practical consequence for the government of losing the motion on the address completely (as opposed to losing on an amendment to it).
Standing order 51 says that the government can’t move a ways and means resolution without notice unless the address has been agreed to. What this means is that if the government fails to get the address through the house, it can’t bring in emergency tax changes, e.g. to beat avoidance schemes, without letting the world know first, which might be very inconvenient in current circumstances.
Perhaps more important, that standing order could be amended by the house to say that the government can’t bring in a budget at all until the address has been passed, something it might do if Boris Johnson loses a vote on the Queen’s speech and then refuses to follow the convention that prime ministers defeated on the Queen’s speech should resign.'
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
Of course! We’ll recapture Gibraltar from those dastardly Spaniards by nuking it.
I guess it’s a strategy consistent with No Deal...
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.
Still doesn’t explain why there are no proposals to address a very real problem. Curious that.
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.
Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
This worries me. There shouldn't be extraneous hoops that people need to jump through to vote. We need to have the fewest barriers to exercising our democratic rights possible, while also guarding our system against fraud.
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.
Still, we want to avoid the risk of personation. So, the solution is simple. If you don't have photo ID you can still vote, but you will get your photo snapped. This can be done in a gloriously low tech initially (i.e. a polaroid, a voter's number and a signature from the polling clerk), but could be become more sophisticated in time.
The consequence of this is to remove the "vote tax", but to also effectively stamp our personation.
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.
Postal voting is generally believed to help the Conservatives, presumably because elderly people lean that way. Ask any activist about "granny farming". Labour made it easier for anyone at all to vote by post, which ironically also probably helped the Tories more because richer voters take longer holidays.
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invaders
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.
Postal voting is generally believed to help the Conservatives, presumably because elderly people lean that way. Ask any activist about "granny farming". Labour made it easier for anyone at all to vote by post, which ironically also probably helped the Tories more because richer voters take longer holidays.
I believe the Tory advantage in postal voting has been greatly reduced since it became more readily available.
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invaders
So you're planning to go to war with France too?
Violence and Leavers seem to go together like strawberries and cream.
Of course, farmers are complaining again that the strawberries are unpicked due to lack of European labour. Nobody wants to come to xenophobic, Brexit-loving Britain.
I've always quite liked the fact that you can vote in this country without any form of identification whatsoever, because it shows how honest most people are and how there's a high level of trust between people. It would be kind of depressing if we have to resort to ID checks like every other country just because of problems in a tiny number of areas.
I am not at all sure there are even problems in a tiny number of areas. I can't even devise a way to defraud the vote if I wanted to.
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.
I would not mind neo-Thatcherite rule. At least she was competent, honest and had ability. You might not have liked her, but at least you could respect her.
Compared to the current dishonest, talentless, incompetent shower....
Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.
If, as looks likely, we broaden the NI Electoral card system to the rest of the UK - you will not need to fill in a form to get a card in person. You turn up, show you are on the electoral register, hand over your National Insurance number and they do all the work for you.
Yes - that will take time - but it no more so than getting a library card or a bus pass. And a bus pass with a photograph will mean you don't need any additional ID.
Look at the reality of how the system works in NI and you will see that it does work. It needs a few tweaks - as I have spoken about already - but it does work.
There’s no evidence of any large amount of voter fraud in the UK.
The Tory policy is just an attempt to increase their election chances . Let’s be honest would they be putting this policy forward if it harmed their chances .
The facts speak for themselves , those more likely to be disenfranchised are all within demographics that are less likely to vote Tory.
The attempts to deflect from this by some who point out the Labour change to postal voting miss two key things.
That policy was to get more people voting not less and older people are more likely to make use of that which doesn’t help Labour .
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
There’s no evidence of any large amount of voter fraud in the UK.
The Tory policy is just an attempt to increase their election chances . Let’s be honest would they be putting this policy forward if it harmed their chances .
The facts speak for themselves , those more likely to be disenfranchised are all within demographics that are less likely to vote Tory.
The attempts to deflect from this by some who point out the Labour change to postal voting miss two key things.
That policy was to get more people voting not less and older people are more likely to make use of that which doesn’t help Labour .
Have you actually researched the NI experience of moving to a photo ID for voting system?
Can you show me the evidence that this has created the sort of widespread disenfranchisement that you are claiming will happen if that system were applied to the rest of the UK? You can't - because it doesn't exist.
That system has been working in NI for more than 30 years.
I want a voter registration system that is as robust as possible. Those people entitled to vote should be the only ones allowed to vote.
Yes, we need major reform of the postal vote system - that is beyond question.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
If a deal is actually agreed and Parliament rejects it because it's not the deal they (i.e. the serried ranks of anti-no-dealers from all parties) want, why would the EU offer any extension?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
That may well be the case, and I am instinctively against this plan as disproportionate to the problems it is meant to tackle. However, if they do intend a solution which will not cost individuals, then it will be the case that one common objection will fall away. I'd still be generally opposed to it, but if someone's objection is cost related then countering that is a smart move politically.
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.
If the DUP are opposed I don’t think it will be that close.
I'm not sure, the ERGers seem to have put a lot faith in Boris and they've also somewhat hoist themselves on the petard of losing the whip if they rebel. Perhaps more likely is that it won't be put to a vote if the DUP aren't on board.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports in
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invaders
So you're planning to go to war with France too?
The Franco Spanish border is basically the Pyrenees
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.
Still holding out! Good luck!
I don't accept that the choice has to be between Neo-Thatcherite and Corbyn. John Smith's approach would have been fine - bar Devolution.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports in
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports in
How will we deal with Portugal? Our oldest ally. Spanish resistance can easily be supplied through their ports.
Will they remain neutral or should we occupy them too?
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
That's an interesting suggestion, as a common complaint is that some truly execrable people get treated as acceptable for some reason because they are marxist - see Stalin flags at rallys - in a way that would rightly cause outrage if it was a fascist being displayed, so if he is saying comparing with those two is ok, is he as you suggest inviting reasonable comparison with horrible people on the other side? I think that probably depends on whether Corbyn or McDonnell would object to being compared to Trostsky or Lenin.
Comments
Why would the referendum ask "Should Scotland be an independent country?" if it already was one. Scotland is a country within a country but under international law our country is the United Kingdom.
Last time I tried to pick up a bloody parcel from Royal Mail they actually REFUSED to accept my driving licence. They insisted on the bloody red card which I had left at home. Maybe they have now changed that deranged policy.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
And in any case I don’t have to prove my identity at all. Just hand over a business card and they give me a pass. I could announce my name as Meghan Markle and they’d hand over a pass.
Said ships now have said planes.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden
If the opposition want him out they should vote for a General Election.
Winds up his adoring fans even more.
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/465684-trump-calls-for-votes-for-spicer-on-dancing-with-the-stars
I'm reaching for the disinfectant eyedrops.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-2006
But I imagine a general election would have to follow very rapidly after QS is voted down.
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
I think most of us have priced that one in. Nationalists be Nationalists.
We are in perfect agreement! Well, nearly perfect,,
'David Howarth, a Cambridge law professor and former Lib Dem MP, has been in touch to say losing a vote on the Queen’s speech does have at least one practical effect. He explains:
You might be interested to know that there would be a practical consequence for the government of losing the motion on the address completely (as opposed to losing on an amendment to it).
Standing order 51 says that the government can’t move a ways and means resolution without notice unless the address has been agreed to. What this means is that if the government fails to get the address through the house, it can’t bring in emergency tax changes, e.g. to beat avoidance schemes, without letting the world know first, which might be very inconvenient in current circumstances.
Perhaps more important, that standing order could be amended by the house to say that the government can’t bring in a budget at all until the address has been passed, something it might do if Boris Johnson loses a vote on the Queen’s speech and then refuses to follow the convention that prime ministers defeated on the Queen’s speech should resign.'
I guess it’s a strategy consistent with No Deal...
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.
Still, we want to avoid the risk of personation. So, the solution is simple. If you don't have photo ID you can still vote, but you will get your photo snapped. This can be done in a gloriously low tech initially (i.e. a polaroid, a voter's number and a signature from the polling clerk), but could be become more sophisticated in time.
The consequence of this is to remove the "vote tax", but to also effectively stamp our personation.
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183752172737040385
Of course, farmers are complaining again that the strawberries are unpicked due to lack of European labour. Nobody wants to come to xenophobic, Brexit-loving Britain.
Compared to the current dishonest, talentless, incompetent shower....
Yes - that will take time - but it no more so than getting a library card or a bus pass. And a bus pass with a photograph will mean you don't need any additional ID.
Look at the reality of how the system works in NI and you will see that it does work. It needs a few tweaks - as I have spoken about already - but it does work.
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.
The Tory policy is just an attempt to increase their election chances . Let’s be honest would they be putting this policy forward if it harmed their chances .
The facts speak for themselves , those more likely to be disenfranchised are all within demographics that are less likely to vote Tory.
The attempts to deflect from this by some who point out the Labour change to postal voting miss two key things.
That policy was to get more people voting not less and older people are more likely to make use of that which doesn’t help Labour .
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
https://twitter.com/10downingstreet/status/1183777183149547525?s=21
Can you show me the evidence that this has created the sort of widespread disenfranchisement that you are claiming will happen if that system were applied to the rest of the UK? You can't - because it doesn't exist.
That system has been working in NI for more than 30 years.
I want a voter registration system that is as robust as possible. Those people entitled to vote should be the only ones allowed to vote.
Yes, we need major reform of the postal vote system - that is beyond question.
Plus, party politics make it advantageous for pretty much everybody except the Conservatives for any deal to be thwarted.
Anyway, I must be off. Play nicely, everyone.
If the DUP object it's a big ask.
Will they remain neutral or should we occupy them too?
The new voter ID is a solution looking for a problem .