"People born in Northern Ireland are legally British, unless they register a change in citizenship, even if they identify as Irish under rights granted in the Good Friday agreement, a UK court has ruled."
UK OK
Good Friday Agreement pretty much defunked now. Time for the shinners to pick up their rifles again and we can get back to business as usual.
Perhaps your ridiculous comments might have more credibility if your spelling didn't suggest you are not too smart.
Ironically I am quite clever - just not great at spelling.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?
As Scotland clearly voted No to independence just 5 years ago and Boris will block the SNP trying to overturn that vote anytime soon
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
Are you seriously suggesting there will be no negotiations about access to fishing grounds etc etc. The negotiations would be long and arduous and the EU would have Scotland over a barrel. Only a moron would be incapable of seeing that.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.
Nothing is going to stop you Separatists until you get what you want. Nationalism isn't based on logic. We're just playing the smart game and living for the moment. It was supposed to be "once in a generation" after all.
Miss Cyclefree, from memory, it was available during the recent(ish) trial run of ID at polling stations, with a large range (a dozen, maybe?) other options.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It's new as there hasn't been a requirement for ID in the past.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
They should be forced to identify a maximum number of people without ID before the change comes into pass.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.
The second Quebec referendum was held 15 years after the first, not 5 years after the first ie a whole generation later
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
Don't forget the bookmakers of Gib turning it into a second Stalingrad! That must be giving Johnny Spaniard pause for thought.
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It would consist of the same thing NI has used for three decades and was rolled out at trials across the country in the past.
Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Weird question, as you appear to be implying that drinking and ordering by mail are metropolitan elitist signifiers.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
As long as the legislation also does all it can to eliminate postal vote fraud, we will have a better system at the end of the process than we do now.
No we won't. There's not a smidgeon of a scintilla of evidence that personation is a problem in Britain today (unlike in Ireland a century ago where it was rife).
But there's ample evidence modern Brits are reluctant to vote, compared with 50 years ago.
So wasting time trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and using a solution that will inevitably further discourage voting, is an utter misuse of legislative and officialdom's time.
Not as great a waste as the whole Brexit delusion - but still irresponsible misgovernment on a scale only Johnson could get someone to dream up.
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Weird question, as you appear to be implying that drinking and ordering by mail are metropolitan elitist signifiers.
Is it Cristal champagne in the parcel?
I was actually worried there was some practice in the shires I wasn't familiar with.
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
Are you seriously suggesting there will be no negotiations about access to fishing grounds etc etc. The negotiations would be long and arduous and the EU would have Scotland over a barrel. Only a moron would be incapable of seeing that.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Confected outrage.
Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.
Yet desperate not to allow a democratic vote they insist they will win, says it all.
I am too tired to argue but that must rank as one of the stupidest ways of deciding something so important.
You don’t even know what the fucking deal is let alone its implications. It would probably take 5 hours to read let alone understand the legal text and any Bill implementing it. But hey let’s vote on it on the basis of total ignorance and screw those who are affected by it.
Jesus wept.
Cyclefree, you know I respect you. However, pretty much everyone is in entrenched positions and it will not take much more than a nano second for everyone to decide which side of the fence they sit on.
The more I research the issue of dealing with risk in complex adaptive systems, them more I appreciate the damage of analysis paralysis. Surely, we've been past that point in the UK where inaction and uncertainty is what is causing the bulk of the damage for at least a year, perhaps more like two.
There is a growing body of management science and systems science saying that the best way forward in complex adaptive systems is simply to act, and then react to what the action results in, rather than seek to analyze and plan in detail. We may well be riven as to what action should be taken, but we may also be at a point where any action is better than continued paralysis.
Well I respect you too. But with the greatest respect that sounds like the stupidest way possible to decide something complex with far-reaching implications for us all.
The alternative is not paralysis. It is to take time to read and understand properly the implications of whatever new deal is arrived to and then explain it to the voters and then take a decision and explain that to the voters.
It is precisely because the country is divided that this effort, however hard and time-consuming it may be, is essential.
That is what politics is - an attempt to find the ground on which a decision can be made. It is precisely the opposite of what May’s government did and doubling down on what she did - trying to bully something through on the basis of exhaustion and exasperation is catastrophically stupid. All that means is that at the first whiff of a problem any consent for it will vanish.
And your last sentence is why many people believe if we crash out without a deal we will eventually rejoin and were we to revoke we would eventually end up leaving (probably in a hurry without a deal).
We really do need someone to explain to an exasperated public why leaving is proving far more difficult than they were told it would be and get them to decide what to do.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
An amphibious invasion in the Basque country to take them by surprise.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.
Yet desperate not to allow a democratic vote they insist they will win, says it all.
We heard the "once in a generation" rant one too many times in that famously non-divisive referendum campaign. Sorry, your not getting another one.
You could try a drink to commiserate if you can afford the fun tax.
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Well if you look about 90 I doubt you will be asked for ID for alcohol. Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.
To those seeking a second referendum, could you please tell us the answers to the following. 1. What will the question be? 2.What level of turnout will validate the result? 2016- 72pc 3.What margin of victory will validate the result? 2016-4pc 4.How long will the enabling legislation take?2016-7 months 5.How long will it be from passing the Act to the referendum itself? 2016-6 months 6.Why should the losers consent to the outcome this time? 7.Wil we all be driven insane in the meantime?
1. Whatever the Government support vs Remain. I'd previously supported a 3 option AV vote with No Deal but I've changed my mind as No Deal would have to specify exactly what it meant in terms of future arrangements and compromises, and doesn't get us any further forward. Unless of course the Government position is full no deal.
2. Any. Those who don't vote are letting others decide.
3. Legally 50% + 1. Practically and morally, a far clearer vote than in 2016 will help everyone to move on whichever way it goes.
4. If there's a majority for legislation, there is far more urgency than in 2016. Main delay will be Electoral Commission canvassing the question. 3 months or so? I'm envious of the Greeks who announced a referendum one week and held it the next with no legitimacy issues as far as I heard.
5. 6 months probably in total - so 3 months for legislation and 3 for the campaign. .
6. Referendum can be binding. But I think you've misunderstood losers consent - it's about the winners acting in a way to govern the whole country not just the winning faction. And making the action as acceptable as possible to the people on the losing side. Otherwise it'll just be reopened again and again.
7. Most probably. But it might just break the impasse in a less head-banging way than we've managed until now.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
HYUFD has already demonstrated his comprehension of military matters during the discussion about Syria. There's no need to embarrass him further.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It would consist of the same thing NI has used for three decades and was rolled out at trials across the country in the past.
Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?
Northern Ireland has a long tradition of personation. The mainland has not. Therefore, this is not designed to cure the problem we do not have. It is probably intended to suppress the Labour vote. However, the Yougov graphs linked earlier suggest it might actually be the Leaver vote that is most impacted.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
As long as the legislation also does all it can to eliminate postal vote fraud, we will have a better system at the end of the process than we do now.
No we won't. There's not a smidgeon of a scintilla of evidence that personation is a problem in Britain today (unlike in Ireland a century ago where it was rife).
But there's ample evidence modern Brits are reluctant to vote, compared with 50 years ago.
So wasting time trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and using a solution that will inevitably further discourage voting, is an utter misuse of legislative and officialdom's time.
Not as great a waste as the whole Brexit delusion - but still irresponsible misgovernment on a scale only Johnson could get someone to dream up.
Why is the system of voter registration that is used - successfully - in NI so wrong for the rest of the UK? There is no evidence that it has discouraged voter participation in NI - so why do you think that the rest of us won't be able to cope with it?
Ensuring that those who are entitled to vote are the ones that are actually voting is at the heart of what I want in an electoral system.
We have, in recent years, moved to individual rather than household based voter registration - which was a step in the right direction.
We should always be striving to have the best systems in place.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Well if you look about 90 I doubt you will be asked for ID for alcohol. Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.
RM will accept utility bills, poll tax letter from the council, passport, name on the credit card, etc. etc.
I am too tired to argue but that must rank as one of the stupidest ways of deciding something so important.
You don’t even know what the fucking deal is let alone its implications. It would probably take 5 hours to read let alone understand the legal text and any Bill implementing it. But hey let’s vote on it on the basis of total ignorance and screw those who are affected by it.
Jesus wept.
Cyclefree, you know I respect you. Howe continued paralysis.
Well I respect you too. But with the greatest respect that sounds like the stupidest way possible to decide something complex with far-reaching implications for us all.
The alternative is not paralysis. It is to take time to read and understand properly the implications of whatever new deal is arrived to and then explain it to the voters and then take a decision and explain that to the voters.
It is precisely because the country is divided that this effort, however hard and time-consuming it may be, is essential.
That is what politics is - an attempt to find the ground on which a decision can be made. It is precisely the opposite of what May’s government did and doubling down on what she did - trying to bully something through on the basis of exhaustion and exasperation is catastrophically stupid. All that means is that at the first whiff of a problem any consent for it will vanish.
Parliament has simply run out of road on Brexit.
Your approach was valid in 2016 but the splits, the deeply dug trecnhes and the personal emnities in today's Parliamnet mean there is no chance of taking the considered view working. The Parliament is dysfunctional and there will be no unified consensus to explain x y or z to voters. All we have atm is a series of factions advancing their own agenda and a jaded electorate looking the deed done.
There is little voter appetite for more time and no guarantee that more time will give an answer. the time for doing all the correct things has been squandered. Too late.
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
of seeing that.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Confected outrage.
Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.
I think the issue is that a lot of small towns on the coast have fishing at the heart of them and don't have much reason for existence if the industry dies. So it is inevitably going to have more political salience than a retail store in the middle of booming London.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.
The second Quebec referendum was held 15 years after the first, not 5 years after the first ie a whole generation later
I hate to think what housing estate you live on ...
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It would consist of the same thing NI has used for three decades and was rolled out at trials across the country in the past.
Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?
Northern Ireland has a long tradition of personation. The mainland has not. Therefore, this is not designed to cure the problem we do not have. It is probably intended to suppress the Labour vote. However, the Yougov graphs linked earlier suggest it might actually be the Leaver vote that is most impacted.
There have been increasing reports of personation and other problems with postal ballots etc with IIRC judicial reviews showing flaws that 'would shame a banana republic'. Plus given there are no checks to prevent personation we won't actually know how big a problem it is.
It won't suppress any vote since anyone can get the necessary ID free of charge. Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
HYUFD has already demonstrated his comprehension of military matters during the discussion about Syria. There's no need to embarrass him further.
The Syrian Army have already arrived in Kurdish towns close to the Turkish border after an agreement between Assad and the Kurds so much for the oncoming collapse and massacre of the Kurds after the US withdrawal!
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Disorganised enough not to enrol on the electoral register, and annually renew, in the first place?
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
The voter ID cards in NI are free to everyone. This sort of system works - within the UK. It has done since the 80s.
And there is no evidence from NI that it has created disenfranchisement along the lines that people have been claiming will happen if it were applied to the rest of the UK
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
**** me! Are you, Cummings and Boris planning a military intervention to bolster Brexit now?
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
I knew Kinnock had lost in '92 on GE day, when I was told by two mate's wives separately that they had voted Tory. Both absolute swing voters. Both worried about mortgage and tax.
Which struck me as odd, since Major had managed to get interest rates to something like 15% at one point. But there you go.
The 15% interest rates came a few months later in September 1992 in Major's failed attempt to keep Sterling inside the ERM.
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
of seeing that.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on heree.
Confected outrage.
Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.
I think the issue is that a lot of small towns on the coast have fishing at the heart of them and don't have much reason for existence if the industry dies. So it is inevitably going to have more political salience than a retail store in the middle of booming London.
Though inshore fishermen often do a lot of shellfish for export.
One bonus of Brexit is that the loss of the EU shellfish markets will be good for those of us who like shellfish, and sea bottom conservation. Scallop rakes are quite destructive.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It would consist of the same thing NI has used for three decades and was rolled out at trials across the country in the past.
Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?
Northern Ireland has a long tradition of personation. The mainland has not. Therefore, this is not designed to cure the problem we do not have. It is probably intended to suppress the Labour vote. However, the Yougov graphs linked earlier suggest it might actually be the Leaver vote that is most impacted.
There have been increasing reports of personation and other problems with postal ballots etc with IIRC judicial reviews showing flaws that 'would shame a banana republic'. Plus given there are no checks to prevent personation we won't actually know how big a problem it is.
It won't suppress any vote since anyone can get the necessary ID free of charge. Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Classic muddying of waters. The flaws you describe were in cases dealing with postal voting not voting in person which these proposals target.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
LOL!!
You're nothing if not game!
Not quite sure what would be left of Gibraltar after all that 😂
I knew Kinnock had lost in '92 on GE day, when I was told by two mate's wives separately that they had voted Tory. Both absolute swing voters. Both worried about mortgage and tax.
Which struck me as odd, since Major had managed to get interest rates to something like 15% at one point. But there you go.
The 15% was on Black Wednesday 4 months after the 1992 Election.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
of seeing that.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on heree.
Confected outrage.
Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.
I think the issue is that a lot of small towns on the coast have fishing at the heart of them and don't have much reason for existence if the industry dies. So it is inevitably going to have more political salience than a retail store in the middle of booming London.
Though inshore fishermen often do a lot of shellfish for export.
One bonus of Brexit is that the loss of the EU shellfish markets will be good for those of us who like shellfish, and sea bottom conservation. Scallop rakes are quite destructive.
we need to create more marine reserve areas. nows the chance to do it.
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.
And precisely what is this identity document?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
Hear hear.
Just in case you miss it - here is the link that explains it very clearly.
It looks very straightforward to me. It doesn't need to be renewed - as long as the photo still looks enough like you. It is free. And it is not a difficult thing to manage
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
**** me! Are you, Cummings and Boris planning a military intervention to bolster Brexit now?
I don't remember any stories about invading Francoist Spain in my old Commando and Victor comics. Do you?
I knew Kinnock had lost in '92 on GE day, when I was told by two mate's wives separately that they had voted Tory. Both absolute swing voters. Both worried about mortgage and tax.
Which struck me as odd, since Major had managed to get interest rates to something like 15% at one point. But there you go.
The 15% interest rates came a few months later in September 1992 in Major's failed attempt to keep Sterling inside the ERM.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Booze: dunno. Parcels: bank card or other non-photo ID.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
of seeing that.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Confected outrage.
Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.
I think the issue is that a lot of small towns on the coast have fishing at the heart of them and don't have much reason for existence if the industry dies. So it is inevitably going to have more political salience than a retail store in the middle of booming London.
Yes I can see that. But everything in perspective.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
Good luck to any young person nowadays with Challenge 25 in trying to buy alcohol. I'm 37 and still get asked sometimes. Ironically I got asked more when I was over 25 than I did when I was 18 as that's when companies [and the government] seemed to get arsey about Challenge 25.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical. The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.
Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.
Does that make me an honorary Nit?
I agree.
The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing. This will not end well.
But surely the civilising, progressive, open and democratising EU, vanguard of human rights and freedom of speech will ensure such sentences are swiftly condemned and overturned.
Remember that this is the same Kingdom of Spain which will have a veto over the conditions that an independent Scotland would have once it entered negotiations to re-enter the EU. Wonder if that has been wargamed at the NatFest?
You moron , the Spanish Government has already stated many times that it is none of their business and that they would NOT veto Scotland joining EU if it met the joining rules.
of seeing that.
fish
Confected outrage.
Harrods employs more people than work in the UK fishing industry.
I think the issue is that a lot of small towns on the coast have fishing at the heart of them and don't have much reason for existence if the industry dies. So it is inevitably going to have more political salience than a retail store in the middle of booming London.
That all said, only 8,000 people or so in the UK are employed full-time as fishermen (about 3,000 part time) – it really is an absolutely tiny number: the industry receives vastly more focus than its numbers would suggest.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
Surprising. Many City offices require (very irritatingly) ID.
Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Well if you look about 90 I doubt you will be asked for ID for alcohol. Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.
Very true - Royal Mail don't insist on photo ID.
There are still a lot of people who don't have parcels to collect either - maybe just a few percent, but that adds up to millions of people.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
Why don't we just attack Cadiz with fire ships?
That's the middle ages version of a tactical nuke on Bilbao port
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
Why don't we just attack Cadiz with fire ships?
I hate to disappoint HYUFD further, but rather suspect that the fixed cannon of the fortificatioins (a) point out to sea and (b) are rather hard to supply with ammunition - being of such obsolete calibres as 5.25" and 17.2".
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Funny, it's not in rugby, football, golf, cricket, the legal system, healthcare, education, the list goes on.
I think you are confusing 'country' with 'nation state'.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
The taskforce would comprise a nuke aimed at Madrid. Next.
I've been coming to the conclusion that people who are still in favour of Brexit are a strong distillation of people who don't understand why processes are important. It's a strong overlap with the traditional right-wing approach to things: criminals? Hang em! Baddies in foreign lands? Nuke em! Don't like the ECJ? Leave without a deal! Complex issues, simple answers that don't work. And if it's shown to not* be working, fuck it, go faster.
* split infinitive especially for LuckyGuy1883
I'm honoured.
As I am sure I am one of the people you've offered this crude generalisation analysis of, let me give you an additional insight. I have no problem with people saying that issues are complex and require complex and potentially protracted discussion before they can be solved, IF they can be solved. However, that needs to come *after* the simple solution has been applied and found to be lacking, not before. Human beings have not changed much over epochs, and our behaviour is largely based on the consequences we anticipate. To take law and order - it we want to stop people breaking the law, as a first step, breaking the law should be made a less attractive option than not breaking the law. That may work - it has usually been found to work in the past. If it doesn't work, then a more complex solution should of course be looked at. But too say it's all too difficult and we don't understand the problem, before this has been applied, is a nonsense.
By the same token, it is utterly absurd that Theresa May negotiated our withdrawal from the EU without being prepared (literally and figuratively) to take the country out of the EU without an agreement being ratified. The human dynamics of that situation could be explained to (and by) a five year old. Does that mean the EU negotiations would have gone swimmingly if No Deal had been on the table? No. But again, at least put the basics in place before you complain that it's all just too difficult and complex.
I am too tired to argue but that must rank as one of the stupidest ways of deciding something so important.
You don’t even know what the fucking deal is let alone its implications. It would probably take 5 hours to read let alone understand the legal text and any Bill implementing it. But hey let’s vote on it on the basis of total ignorance and screw those who are affected by it.
Jesus wept.
Cyclefree, you know I respect you. However, pretty much everyone is in entrenched positions and it will not take much more than a nano second for everyone to decide which side of the fence they sit on.
The more I research the issue of dealing with risk in complex adaptive systems, them more I appreciate the damage of analysis paralysis. Surely, we've been past that point in the UK where inaction and uncertainty is what is causing the bulk of the damage for at least a year, perhaps more like two.
There is a growing body of management science and systems science saying that the best way forward in complex adaptive systems is simply to act, and then react to what the action results in, rather than seek to analyze and plan in detail. We may well be riven as to what action should be taken, but we may also be at a point where any action is better than continued paralysis.
Well I respect you too. But with the greatest respect that sounds like the stupidest way possible to decide something complex with far-reaching implications for us all.
The alternative is not paralysis. It is to take time to read and understand properly the implications of whatever new deal is arrived to and then explain it to the voters and then take a decision and explain that to the voters.
It is precisely because the country is divided that this effort, however hard and time-consuming it may be, is essential.
That is what politics is - an attempt to find the ground on which a decision can be made. It is precisely the opposite of what May’s government did and doubling down on what she did - trying to bully something through on the basis of exhaustion and exasperation is catastrophically stupid. All that means is that at the first whiff of a problem any consent for it will vanish.
"take time to read and understand properly the implications of whatever new deal"
That is where we start to part company - you are assuming that we can understand properly all the implications of a new deal. I don't believe we can, or indeed understand all the implications of staying. There are simply too many variables and feedback loops.
This is precisely the domain in which decision-making ceases to be consciously analytical and becomes based more on subconscious feel and emotion.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical. The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
The taskforce would comprise a nuke aimed at Madrid. Next.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
No it is the United Kingdom.
On an international level our country by international law is the United Kingdom. Scotland could have been an independent country had it voted to do so, but it did not.
EG ISO 3166-1 which defines countries codes etc has codes for the United Kingdom but not AFAIK for Scotland, England etc which are not legally independent countries.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
Binkov's battlegrounds is definitive (until @Dura_Ace shows up).
UK vs Spain total war www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeh-PtHZh0
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
Good luck to any young person nowadays with Challenge 25 in trying to buy alcohol. I'm 37 and still get asked sometimes. Ironically I got asked more when I was over 25 than I did when I was 18 as that's when companies [and the government] seemed to get arsey about Challenge 25.
You're 37?????
Really? No. I thought all this was an A-level project for you!
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Funny, it's not in rugby, football, golf, cricket, the legal system, healthcare, education, the list goes on.
I think you are confusing 'country' with 'nation state'.
Given the terms nation state and country are interchangeable you're only really confusing matters.
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
Binkov's battlegrounds is definitive (until @Dura_Ace shows up).
UK vs Spain total war www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeh-PtHZh0
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.
LOL!!
You're nothing if not game!
Best yo be prepared for any eventuality
Who do you think you are kidding Mr Sanchez if you think old England's done?
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore Sturgeon
Gibraltar?
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soon
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
You do know -
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
Our country is the United Kingdom.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
Oh god. Fish. Again. Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
fish
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?
fish
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.
Comments
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-gives-job-as-campaign-chief-to-leftwinger-guilty-of-voter-fraud-a3684296.html Corbyn's reward to an electoral fraudster, promotion.
Corbyn then deserts the moral high ground by promoting the wretch.
Why is there no outrage at NI requiring this but the idea England, Wales and Scotland will too is outrageous?
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/john-mcdonnell/news/107251/excl-john-mcdonnell-and-len
Is it Cristal champagne in the parcel?
We really do need someone to explain to an exasperated public why leaving is proving far more difficult than they were told it would be and get them to decide what to do.
You could try a drink to commiserate if you can afford the fun tax.
Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.
2. Any. Those who don't vote are letting others decide.
3. Legally 50% + 1. Practically and morally, a far clearer vote than in 2016 will help everyone to move on whichever way it goes.
4. If there's a majority for legislation, there is far more urgency than in 2016. Main delay will be Electoral Commission canvassing the question. 3 months or so? I'm envious of the Greeks who announced a referendum one week and held it the next with no legitimacy issues as far as I heard.
5. 6 months probably in total - so 3 months for legislation and 3 for the campaign. .
6. Referendum can be binding. But I think you've misunderstood losers consent - it's about the winners acting in a way to govern the whole country not just the winning faction. And making the action as acceptable as possible to the people on the losing side. Otherwise it'll just be reopened again and again.
7. Most probably. But it might just break the impasse in a less head-banging way than we've managed until now.
There's no need to embarrass him further.
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
Ensuring that those who are entitled to vote are the ones that are actually voting is at the heart of what I want in an electoral system.
We have, in recent years, moved to individual rather than household based voter registration - which was a step in the right direction.
We should always be striving to have the best systems in place.
Snp fully behind an election.
Your approach was valid in 2016 but the splits, the deeply dug trecnhes and the personal emnities in today's Parliamnet mean there is no chance of taking the considered view working. The Parliament is dysfunctional and there will be no unified consensus to explain x y or z to voters. All we have atm is a series of factions advancing their own agenda and a jaded electorate looking the deed done.
There is little voter appetite for more time and no guarantee that more time will give an answer. the time for doing all the correct things has been squandered. Too late.
https://twitter.com/pearswick/status/1183625488830353408
Between this and Blizzard's craven approach recently, I do wonder how extensive this influence is.
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
It won't suppress any vote since anyone can get the necessary ID free of charge. Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50039106
And there is no evidence from NI that it has created disenfranchisement along the lines that people have been claiming will happen if it were applied to the rest of the UK
You're nothing if not game!
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
One bonus of Brexit is that the loss of the EU shellfish markets will be good for those of us who like shellfish, and sea bottom conservation. Scallop rakes are quite destructive.
It hasn't been used before - it is still in use in NI. It works.
That's quite carefully worded, because the producer and chief writer behind Goldie Lookin Chain is P Xain... who was a Labour councillor.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2012/may/07/rapper-became-labour-councillor
Can't we just stop all the silly games and-
Lock Her Up
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQs
It looks very straightforward to me. It doesn't need to be renewed - as long as the photo still looks enough like you. It is free. And it is not a difficult thing to manage
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
There are still a lot of people who don't have parcels to collect either - maybe just a few percent, but that adds up to millions of people.
Funny, it's not in rugby, football, golf, cricket, the legal system, healthcare, education, the list goes on.
I think you are confusing 'country' with 'nation state'.
As I am sure I am one of the people you've offered this
crude generalisationanalysis of, let me give you an additional insight. I have no problem with people saying that issues are complex and require complex and potentially protracted discussion before they can be solved, IF they can be solved. However, that needs to come *after* the simple solution has been applied and found to be lacking, not before. Human beings have not changed much over epochs, and our behaviour is largely based on the consequences we anticipate. To take law and order - it we want to stop people breaking the law, as a first step, breaking the law should be made a less attractive option than not breaking the law. That may work - it has usually been found to work in the past. If it doesn't work, then a more complex solution should of course be looked at. But too say it's all too difficult and we don't understand the problem, before this has been applied, is a nonsense.By the same token, it is utterly absurd that Theresa May negotiated our withdrawal from the EU without being prepared (literally and figuratively) to take the country out of the EU without an agreement being ratified. The human dynamics of that situation could be explained to (and by) a five year old. Does that mean the EU negotiations would have gone swimmingly if No Deal had been on the table? No. But again, at least put the basics in place before you complain that it's all just too difficult and complex.
That is where we start to part company - you are assuming that we can understand properly all the implications of a new deal. I don't believe we can, or indeed understand all the implications of staying. There are simply too many variables and feedback loops.
This is precisely the domain in which decision-making ceases to be consciously analytical and becomes based more on subconscious feel and emotion.
On an international level our country by international law is the United Kingdom. Scotland could have been an independent country had it voted to do so, but it did not.
EG ISO 3166-1 which defines countries codes etc has codes for the United Kingdom but not AFAIK for Scotland, England etc which are not legally independent countries.
UK vs Spain total war
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeh-PtHZh0
Spain invades Gibraltar
www.youtube.com/watch?v=heNh3t76YAs
Armed forces comparison, UK vs Spain
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjq5_8gU5w
Really? No. I thought all this was an A-level project for you!
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1183774744061104129
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.
It's an island.