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  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    The goal is to fling a lot of shit, and hope that some of it sticks.

    It's not a bad strategy.

    In fact, it's an excellent strategy.

    But it's also one that strikes at the heart of the democratic system. When you can spread falsehoods with impunity, everyone's trust in the system diminishes. And when trust in the system is gone, things rarely turn out well.

    (Which, I would note, is true of the UK as well.)
    Oh absolutely, which is why simply setting fire to the Benn Act might not be so terminal for Boris Johnson's career as some commentators assume.

    When respect for politicians is as badly eroded as it is in Britain, and it's the politicians that make the laws, then it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to understand why a substantial fraction of the population may not be perturbed by, and might even actively cheer, a Prime Minister who disregards statute.

    If you don't respect MPs, then why respect the laws that they pass?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Byronic said:

    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,411
    On the subject of ignored referendum, eleven months ago the people of California voted overwhelmingly to get rid of winter time.

    And what's happened next?

    Bugger all. Washington is refusing to let it happen.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,411
    Scott_P said:
    That's a rather good picture of the Donald.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    rcs1000 said:

    Switzerland reran the referendum because they broke the previous question into two dependent ones:

    (1) Would you like a Ferrari?
    (2) Would you like to hand over £200,000?

    The point is that Pi did not become a law that was ignored.
    If the 2016 referendum had been ignored it would have caused a political meltdown but no law would have been ignored as, technically, as has been pointed out ad nausium here, it was advisory.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    When respect for politicians is as badly eroded as it is in Britain, and it's the politicians that make the laws, then it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to understand why a substantial fraction of the population may not be perturbed by, and might even actively cheer, a Prime Minister who disregards statute.

    If you don't respect MPs, then why respect the laws that they pass?

    As other commentators have noted, if you set yourself as "the people versus Parliament' to win an election, after the election you are the parliament the people are against...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,305
    I used to quite like him. Then I used to have respect for his political skills. Now I just give up. Overeducated, undersmart, badly overpaid, a silly person in a government of silly people.


  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    isam said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo06pb1hXbU
    This is the sort of interview that makes me regret us leaving :/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Byronic said:

    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
  • DougSeal said:

    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
  • Scott_P said:
    So whose pocket is Boris in ?

    It can't be Donald's as Trump wears red ties.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    rcs1000 said:

    There may only be five *federal* refendums a year, but aren't there a reasonable number of *canton* level ones too?
    Yes, for some value of "reasonable." I think. But it is a hybrid - a representative democracy with strong direct elements. And anyway it is a one off and therefore not good evidence that the system is generally workable, or desirable.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,305
    Byronic said:

    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Inded. A crossdressing international male model transitioning to be a woman with a small cottage in Greece would be a fine, fine Lord Protector of the New Republic of the United Kingdom. A life story so inspiring it cries out for an author to write it down and put it into print.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    edited October 2019
    Charles said:

    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    What a total cock.
  • Charles said:

    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Because she wants to damage Biden as well as Trump ?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    viewcode said:

    I used to quite like him. Then I used to have respect for his political skills. Now I just give up. Overeducated, undersmart, badly overpaid, a silly person in a government of silly people.


    Look at the twitter feed of this twonk ‘PeterRNeumann’. He’s utterly obsessed with Brexit, and with fighting Brexit. Valueless lunatic.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    I guess the only consolation at a time of yet more national humiliation is that he did not say what he might have said had he been on what he was on last week in Parliament.

    "Whatever you do, don't mention the war! I did, but I think I got away with it....."

    Where is Basil when you need him?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,765
    viewcode said:

    Inded. A crossdressing international male model transitioning to be a woman with a small cottage in Greece would be a fine, fine Lord Protector of the New Republic of the United Kingdom. A life story so inspiring it cries out for an author to write it down and put it into print.
    United ?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Byronic said:

    Look at the twitter feed of this twonk ‘PeterRNeumann’. He’s utterly obsessed with Brexit, and with fighting Brexit. Valueless lunatic.
    Irony is not dead.
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    The red throbbing phallus shape is a classic trope of patriarchal iconography.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    DougSeal said:

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    “You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it.”
    Like the Brexit referendum you mean? Absolutely agree with you. Glad we’ve got that cleared up.
  • Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,305
    Nigelb said:

    United ?
    Fair point
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.

    Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
    Where does parliament derive its authority from?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2019
    DougSeal said:

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Oh give it a rest! We didn't steal anything and you seem to want to rip up the GFA completely.

    The GFA recognises that NI is currently British and puts it on the people of NI to change that if they want to, while recognising that the people of NI can consider themselves Irish if they want to and having special arrangements etc, etc, etc - but you just want to say a giant "f**k you" to the unionists, rip that up completely, turn us back 40 years and fight it out.

    Not for me thanks. I'm a democrat and believe in self-determination and I'm happy for the voters to decide what they want. Hopefully you will respect democracy and the rule of law one day.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited October 2019
    Ladies and gentlemen, I think PB has cracked it. The answer has been hiding in plain sight. As @DougSeal and @rcs1000 have discussed, the precedent is the Indiana Pi Bill, and the way forward on Brexit is for parliament to follow the lead of the Speaker of the Indiana House of Representatives, and refer the whole matter to the Committee on Swamplands.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    “You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it.”
    Like the Brexit referendum you mean? Absolutely agree with you. Glad we’ve got that cleared up.
    I agree. I think we should try as hard as possible to leave on the terms set out in the leave manifesto and as it becomes increasingly clear that departure on those terms promised is impossible then another democratic vote is legitimate. Apparently that makes me a Nazi. Oh well.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Byronic said:


    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Your bot would be you, and it would recreate itself and so on.
    This is not a future I want.
  • DougSeal said:

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884

    Oh give it a rest! We didn't steal anything and you seem to want to rip up the GFA completely.

    The GFA recognises that NI is currently British and puts it on the people of NI to change that if they want to, while recognising that the people of NI can consider themselves Irish if they want to and having special arrangements etc, etc, etc - but you just want to say a giant "f**k you" to the unionists, rip that up completely, turn us back 40 years and fight it out.

    Not for me thanks. I'm a democrat and believe in self-determination and I'm happy for the voters to decide what they want. Hopefully you will respect democracy and the rule of law one day.
    The issue is not whether Northern Irish have the self determination to be either or British or Irish. It's whether the UK government protects the interests of a constituent nation of the United Kingdom. Manifestly the Johnson regime is not doing that.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    I agree with Doug Seal. You really cannot disrespect the peoples vote and then expect them to do nothing about it. Well said sir.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100

    Ladies and gentlemen, I think PB has cracked it. The answer has been hiding in plain sight. As @DougSeal and @rcs1000 have discussed, the precedent is the Indiana Pi Bill, and the way forward on Brexit is for parliament to follow the lead of the Speaker of the Indiana House of Representatives, and refer the whole matter to the Committee on Swamplands.

    Swampland Elite Remoaners. No way!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    Oh give it a rest! We didn't steal anything and you seem to want to rip up the GFA completely.

    The GFA recognises that NI is currently British and puts it on the people of NI to change that if they want to, while recognising that the people of NI can consider themselves Irish if they want to and having special arrangements etc, etc, etc - but you just want to say a giant "f**k you" to the unionists, rip that up completely, turn us back 40 years and fight it out.

    Not for me thanks. I'm a democrat and believe in self-determination and I'm happy for the voters to decide what they want. Hopefully you will respect democracy and the rule of law one day.
    Northern Ireland is a fact on the ground. I wholeheartedly support the GFA. However you seem to think it should be treated as any other part of the UK. I’m sorry but the messy history we have there means we can’t do that and we have to respect Ireland’s interest in the matter - also part of the GFA but one you blithely dismiss as “imperialism” when it is nothing of the sort.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,556
    Byronic said:


    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Your third idea will be done before we Brexit.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2019
    Byronic said:


    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,556

    "Whatever you do, don't mention the war! I did, but I think I got away with it....."

    Where is Basil when you need him?
    Dunno. But I am pretty sure the Major is heading up one of our government departments.
  • Noo said:

    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
  • On other issues I asked this morning if the Conservative conference had had anything to say about student debt.

    As the ONS are now including expected unpaid student debt in the government borrowing it means there is over £10bn available each year to reduce tuition fees by.

    Have the Conservatives realised this or are they still pretending that the issue doesn't exist ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Noo said:
    Smash up the country and pay for the damage, albeit with someone else’s money.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,556
    Noo said:
    :lol:

    Cripes. We've smashed your peace agreement to pieces, will you accept £5billion by way of an apology.
  • Scott_P said:
    Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Scott_P said:
    Intriguing. Varadkar calling for a 2nd Brexit referendum feels like the EU dangerously overplaying its hand.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,920
    How does anyone so stupid and insensitive make it through life to his age without giving fatal offence to someone?
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
  • DougSeal said:

    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    edited October 2019
    Danny565 said:

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Danny565 said:

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
    Absolutely. All that matters now is leaving. We can sort out the other shit down the line. But to save the country and it’s democracy we really DO have to leave.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Byronic said:

    Absolutely. All that matters now is leaving. We can sort out the other shit down the line. But to save the country and it’s democracy we really DO have to leave.
    Nah. There are options either way.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,411
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Yes, for some value of "reasonable." I think. But it is a hybrid - a representative democracy with strong direct elements. And anyway it is a one off and therefore not good evidence that the system is generally workable, or desirable.
    That's right: it's definitely representative democracy, with some direct elements.

    My view, FWIW, is that the Swiss model works because it allows politicians to be alerted to strong views before they bubble over. It allows for the tiller of state to make small movements, rather than big ones. (Which, if you want to prosper, is a good thing.)
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Naah, the Swiss vote in about 5 referendums a year. Governing Switzerland requires >5 executive decisions a year. Plus they are such a weird nation that if it works there, that is actually evidence that it *doesn't* work in general.
    Switzerland averages 10 National referendums a year and dozens of Canton and municipal referendums.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
    No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    Details of the latest YouGov yesterday are now out and see the LDs now comfortably ahead of Corbyn Labour with middle class ABC1 voters on 27% to 21% for Labour with the Tories ahead on 34%. With C2DE working class voters the Tories are also on 34% with Labour second on 22%.

    Some dramatic changes in the regional figures too, with the Tories now tied in London with Labour on 32% each with the LDs up to 24% and in Scotland the SNP vote has fallen to 35% (even below the 37% they got in 2017) with the Scottish LDs surging to 20% only 1% behind the Scottish Tories on 21% and with Scottish Labour collapsing to just 11%.

    In the South the Tories lead on 40% with the LDs second on 29% and in the Midlands and Wales the Tories also lead on 36% to 21% for Labour. Labour only lead in the North on 31% to 28% for the Tories

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mgv6oms6dw/TheTimes_191001_VI_Trackers_w.pdf
  • Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
    It must the easiest deal in history. Why on earth is it all taking so long?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
    It was a border dispute which are very common. The whole point was that they disagreed with the border. It’s not illegal to have a dispute over something. Also, their constitution explicitly said, that the state’s jurisdiction only extended to the 26 counties.pending reintegration of the whole national territory.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Chris said:

    How does anyone so stupid and insensitive make it through life to his age without giving fatal offence to someone?
    Ask Corbyn. He’s much older.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited October 2019
    "....that was then, this is now...."

    = if you don't like the result of direct democracy, just play lip service while prevaricating and delaying, then eventually try claiming that due to the passage of time the result no longer applies and it's time to rerun the whole thing

    Imagine the reaction if, after a general election, the old government (which had lost) stayed in power then forced a general election 4 years later in the hope of being re-elected
  • How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,530
    edited October 2019
    Manchester Originals vs Northern Superchargers
    Birmingham Phoenix vs Trent Rockets
    Welsh Fire vs Southern Brave
    London Spirit vs Oval Invincibles

    Dearie me.

    I'm surprised that nobody's suggested that all ten fielders have to bowl ten deliveries each.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited October 2019
    DougSeal said:

    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
    Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
  • isamisam Posts: 41,335
    .

    "....that was then, this is now...."

    = if you don't like the result of direct democracy, just play lip service while prevaricating and delaying, then eventually try claiming that due to the passage of time the result no longer applies and it's time to rerun the whole thing

    Imagine the reaction if, after a general election, the old government (which had lost) stayed in power then forced a general election 4 years later in the hope of being re-elected

    Yes, the MPs have filibustered the public
  • isamisam Posts: 41,335
    Byronic said:

    Absolutely. All that matters now is leaving. We can sort out the other shit down the line. But to save the country and it’s democracy we really DO have to leave.
    Been saying this for three years and three months
  • Noo said:

    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    DougSeal said:

    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
    Me too.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    HYUFD said:

    Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
    When you look at your opinion polls, do you ever stop to notice that they sometimes move and are sometimes wrong? Try it. Whole new worlds will open up for you.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,092

    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    So he thought he could buy off the Irish and clearly doesn’t have a clue about the sensitivities surrounding the border . Peace isn’t for sale !

    Can this wretched government get any lower , they continue to destroy the UKs international reputation .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,335

    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)

    Well done for knowing her number! Doubt I know more than five that are in my phone
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    HYUFD said:

    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Of what possible relevance is that?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    HYUFD said:

    Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
    Boris' plan doesn't avoid a hard border. If it did then everyone (not just turncoats with no political integrity) would be praising it.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Scott_P said:
    Oh £350m a week for the Irish NHS.
  • DougSeal said:

    It was a border dispute which are very common. The whole point was that they disagreed with the border. It’s not illegal to have a dispute over something. Also, their constitution explicitly said, that the state’s jurisdiction only extended to the 26 counties.pending reintegration of the whole national territory.
    There are lots of disputes around the world but I think the territorial claim may have been illegal. In any case it was certainly undiplomatic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited October 2019
    DougSeal said:

    Of what possible relevance is that?
    Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
  • isam said:


    Well done for knowing her number! Doubt I know more than five that are in my phone
    Off by heart I know my own, my wife's and my dad's numbers. That is it, the rest are saved on my phone and bizarrely my wife's since somehow a while back my contacts merged with hers - we're not sure why! I'm presuming I logged onto something on hers but I don't know what or how.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
    Yes, the EU is steering Britain to a very bad place where, in the end, we will just say fuck it, we’re not destroying our democracy. We’re out. And if that means a hard border, so be it.

    Can they see this? I hope so. They can be forgiven for frustration at our wankiness.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    HYUFD said:

    Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
    It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
    Except that we have basically been fucking with them for centuries, and all they have done is try to make sure we comply with an international treaty that we signed. But otherwise yes I see your point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    HYUFD said:

    Details of the latest YouGov yesterday are now out and see the LDs now comfortably ahead of Corbyn Labour with middle class ABC1 voters on 27% to 21% for Labour with the Tories ahead on 34%. With C2DE working class voters the Tories are also on 34% with Labour second on 22%.

    Some dramatic changes in the regional figures too, with the Tories now tied in London with Labour on 32% each with the LDs up to 24% and in Scotland the SNP vote has fallen to 35% (even below the 37% they got in 2017) with the Scottish LDs surging to 20% only 1% behind the Scottish Tories on 21% and with Scottish Labour collapsing to just 11%.

    In the South the Tories lead on 40% with the LDs second on 29% and in the Midlands and Wales the Tories also lead on 36% to 21% for Labour. Labour only lead in the North on 31% to 28% for the Tories

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mgv6oms6dw/TheTimes_191001_VI_Trackers_w.pdf

    So why the change on wanting an election, Mr Corbyn?
  • Except that we have basically been fucking with them for centuries, and all they have done is try to make sure we comply with an international treaty that we signed. But otherwise yes I see your point.
    No they're not, nothing in the treaty prevents even a hard no deal Brexit as the courts have already ruled.
  • rpjs said:

    No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
    Perhaps it was European law then - territorial claims against fellow members upsetting the brotherhood of nations blah and blah.

    I really don't know but I do vaguely recall it was a point of contention and it was changed.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Yes but 44% were opposed IIRC. Those two numbers are interesting the 44% and the 46%. If that is a reflection of the popular vote, then it is all about the ground game in the EC & voter turnout in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. Biden might be able to bank those states whereas HC lost them.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,335

    Off by heart I know my own, my wife's and my dad's numbers. That is it, the rest are saved on my phone and bizarrely my wife's since somehow a while back my contacts merged with hers - we're not sure why! I'm presuming I logged onto something on hers but I don't know what or how.
    I know the parents of my schoolmates house phone numbers! But only a couple of mobiles other than my own, not even my parents or girlfriends which is quite poor actually.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    There are lots of disputes around the world but I think the territorial claim may have been illegal. In any case it was certainly undiplomatic.
    The claim was in the Irish Constitution from 1938 onwards. Given the passions surrounding the partition of Ireland I think diplomacy was the last thing on anyone’s mind. Under our Ireland Act 1922 we implicitly claimed the right to legislate for the whole of Ireland, That wasn’t repealed until the GFA in 1998 either
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    DougSeal said:

    It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
    When 79% of Democrats support impeaching the President and only 12% of Republicans support impeaching the President they largely are the same thing
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Are Leavers having a comedown tonight after the narcotic thrills earlier of the sketch of a phantasm of a deal?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    So why the change on wanting an election, Mr Corbyn?
    As he knows he faces a 1983 style trouncing
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    It must the easiest deal in history. Why on earth is it all taking so long?
    Because talking bullsh*t is not the same as actually knowing stuff?

    Is there a course at Eton and other "public" schools called "How to talk complete cr*p about anything"? They all seem to be very skilled at it.
  • isam said:

    I know the parents of my schoolmates house phone numbers! But only a couple of mobiles other than my own, not even my parents or girlfriends which is quite poor actually.
    I only know my wife's and my dad's because they've had the same number for years (as have I). I've had the same phone number since 2004. My mum's changed hers a number of times when she's swapped phones so I couldn't tell you hers.

    Other than that I know a few landlines like work's number, but that's different to people's mobiles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    Yes but 44% were opposed IIRC. Those two numbers are interesting the 44% and the 46%. If that is a reflection of the popular vote, then it is all about the ground game in the EC & voter turnout in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. Biden might be able to bank those states whereas HC lost them.
    Biden might, Warren would not and she is now the likely nominee for the Dems
This discussion has been closed.