That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.
If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
International law IIRC.
Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
Perhaps it was European law then - territorial claims against fellow members upsetting the brotherhood of nations blah and blah.
I really don't know but I do vaguely recall it was a point of contention and it was changed.
It was changed as a result of the GFA and the referendum that followed. Spain still claims Gibraltar to this day as you know.
If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.
Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.
Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
Just for sake of balance, I would like to tell the world the consensus on Pb.com is there are also other reputable polling companies that can quoted from time to time on here.
Has there been any “like/or not” on “The Boris Deal” yet?
PS that impeach trump figure looks quite high for this stage of the game. It’s nothing but muffled transcript and hearsay at the moment. Bits of solid evidence will be like gasoline on a flame.
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.
So why did Pelosi switch?
Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
Quite. I thinkox.
Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.
Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
Of what possible relevance is that?
Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
When 79% of Democrats support impeaching the President and only 12% of Republicans support impeaching the President they largely are the same thing
Not everyone in the US is registered to one of the big political parties. Roughly a third of the electorate are independents. So no, it is not the same thing at all.
That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.
If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
International law IIRC.
Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
Perhaps it was European law then - territorial claims against fellow members upsetting the brotherhood of nations blah and blah.
I really don't know but I do vaguely recall it was a point of contention and it was changed.
It was changed as a result of the GFA and the referendum that followed. Spain still claims Gibraltar to this day as you know.
Doesn't Spain get 'first refusal' on Gibraltar under the Treaty of Utecht ?
That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.
If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
International law IIRC.
Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
Perhaps it was European law then - territorial claims against fellow members upsetting the brotherhood of nations blah and blah.
I really don't know but I do vaguely recall it was a point of contention and it was changed.
It was changed as a result of the GFA and the referendum that followed. Spain still claims Gibraltar to this day as you know.
Doesn't Spain get 'first refusal' on Gibraltar under the Treaty of Utecht ?
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.
So why did Pelosi switch?
Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
Quite. I thinkox.
Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.
Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
Of what possible relevance is that?
Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
When 79% of Democrats support impeaching the President and only 12% of Republicans support impeaching the President they largely are the same thing
Not everyone in the US is registered to one of the big political parties. Roughly a third of the electorate are independents. So no, it is not the same thing at all.
Plus, nobody expects those figure to remain stable once impeachment proceedings are happening. There will be competing "it's worse than we thought" / "it's a nothing burger" narratives, and one or the other will have more gravity.
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.
So why did Pelosi switch?
Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
Quite. I thinkox.
Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.
Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
Of what possible relevance is that?
Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
When 79% of Democrats support impeaching the President and only 12% of Republicans support impeaching the President they largely are the same thing
Not everyone in the US is registered to one of the big political parties. Roughly a third of the electorate are independents. So no, it is not the same thing at all.
And 42% of Independents support impeachment, about midway between the GOP and Democrats support for it, so yes it is the same thing
Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.
If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.
Not a game changer.
Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.
In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.
Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.
From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.
I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.
Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).
Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
I'm afraid that's because the Leave position is bankrupt. There are no specific, tangible things to get out of Brexit. There never were any. All they have is a democratic vote which they want to make sure never gets overturned in an equally democratic second vote. And they have a threat of violence if they don't get their way. That's it. In short, Brexit was a mistake and, putting it bluntly, Leavers did make the wrong choice. At some point we have to face up to it.
Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
It must the easiest deal in history. Why on earth is it all taking so long?
Because talking bullsh*t is not the same as actually knowing stuff?
Is there a course at Eton and other "public" schools called "How to talk complete cr*p about anything"? They all seem to be very skilled at it.
Its called PPE but its taught at Oxford not Eton.
The common factor isn’t PPE (May did Geography and BJ Classics) but membership of the Oxford Union where you can home your debating skills without the results having any effect on the outside world whatsoever, you can plot and backstab to your hearts content without any real world repercussions. Then they get unleashed on the rest of us and it all goes to pieces.
Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
It must the easiest deal in history. Why on earth is it all taking so long?
Because talking bullsh*t is not the same as actually knowing stuff?
Is there a course at Eton and other "public" schools called "How to talk complete cr*p about anything"? They all seem to be very skilled at it.
Its called PPE but its taught at Oxford not Eton.
The common factor isn’t PPE (May did Geography and BJ Classics) but membership of the Oxford Union where you can home your debating skills without the results having any effect on the outside world whatsoever, you can plot and backstab to your hearts content without any real world repercussions. Then they get unleashed on the rest of us and it all goes to pieces.
Boris is the first Oxford Union President who became PM since Ted Heath (though Philip May was too), Blair and Cameron were not even Oxford Union members despite attending the university
At least Gove didn't mention punishment beatings at Nazi prison camps, unlike a certain former foreign minister. So we can mark this up as a diplomatic triumph, I guess.
I guess the only consolation at a time of yet more national humiliation is that he did not say what he might have said had he been on what he was on last week in Parliament.
Not quite sure about that. An acquaintance of my daughter attended the event and told her verbatim "he looked and sounded coked out".
Comments
Has there been any “like/or not” on “The Boris Deal” yet?
PS that impeach trump figure looks quite high for this stage of the game. It’s nothing but muffled transcript and hearsay at the moment. Bits of solid evidence will be like gasoline on a flame.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/10/28/the-persistence-of-lack-of-memory-how-the-state-retirement-age-was-changed-and-communicated/
Dead Fred
To me its quite shocking that they're willing to support a vast wealth transfer from the young just to get a few votes.