Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds firm backing for final Brexit decisio

124

Comments

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    We’re going full on conspiracy theory now...

    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/03/trump-drug-industry-impeachment-026123
    President Donald Trump charged Thursday without evidence that the pharmaceutical industry was behind House Democrats' impeachment proceedings, suggesting it was payback for his administration's effort to lower drug costs....

    The goal is to fling a lot of shit, and hope that some of it sticks.

    It's not a bad strategy.

    In fact, it's an excellent strategy.

    But it's also one that strikes at the heart of the democratic system. When you can spread falsehoods with impunity, everyone's trust in the system diminishes. And when trust in the system is gone, things rarely turn out well.

    (Which, I would note, is true of the UK as well.)
    Oh absolutely, which is why simply setting fire to the Benn Act might not be so terminal for Boris Johnson's career as some commentators assume.

    When respect for politicians is as badly eroded as it is in Britain, and it's the politicians that make the laws, then it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to understand why a substantial fraction of the population may not be perturbed by, and might even actively cheer, a Prime Minister who disregards statute.

    If you don't respect MPs, then why respect the laws that they pass?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,236
    On the subject of ignored referendum, eleven months ago the people of California voted overwhelmingly to get rid of winter time.

    And what's happened next?

    Bugger all. Washington is refusing to let it happen.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,236
    Scott_P said:
    That's a rather good picture of the Donald.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:



    Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.

    If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.

    In 1897 the democratically elected Indiana General Assembly voted to fix the value of pi at 3.2. That was of course impossible so it was not respected. In 2016 the British public voted on a manifesto that turned out to be so inherently contradictory they may as well have been voting to re-establish the Raj. I don’t advocate overturning the result without a supervening democratic vote, be it another referendum or an LD majority after a GE, but there is nothing undemocratic about that position.

    I know you disagree. It’s been done to death. We differ. I’m a cretin and a moron etc etc etc. Save your breath.
    The Indiana Bill never became law, so your example is incorrect.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
    That’s the point. It was never implemented. Neither has Brexit yet. Nor has the Easter Act 1928. Switzerland reran a referendum this year because the voters in 2016 were not given the full facts. South Dakota legislators unilaterally decided to overturn a statewide ballot passed in 2016. None of these has destroyed democracy. Although I am a Lib Dem I am uneasy at the prospect of straight revoke and would prefer another referendum. Either way I think it is fair to say I am some way from being the Nazi described by Mr Tyndall.
    Switzerland reran the referendum because they broke the previous question into two dependent ones:

    (1) Would you like a Ferrari?
    (2) Would you like to hand over £200,000?

    The point is that Pi did not become a law that was ignored.
    If the 2016 referendum had been ignored it would have caused a political meltdown but no law would have been ignored as, technically, as has been pointed out ad nausium here, it was advisory.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    When respect for politicians is as badly eroded as it is in Britain, and it's the politicians that make the laws, then it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to understand why a substantial fraction of the population may not be perturbed by, and might even actively cheer, a Prime Minister who disregards statute.

    If you don't respect MPs, then why respect the laws that they pass?

    As other commentators have noted, if you set yourself as "the people versus Parliament' to win an election, after the election you are the parliament the people are against...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    I used to quite like him. Then I used to have respect for his political skills. Now I just give up. Overeducated, undersmart, badly overpaid, a silly person in a government of silly people.


  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,215
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:
    That fellow did great interviews with James O'Brien & Emily Maitlis, which saw them dying to treat him like they do "Stupid Brexiteers" but not sure if attacking a clever Eastern European was a good look
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo06pb1hXbU
    This is the sort of interview that makes me regret us leaving :/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
  • DougSeal said:

    FF43 said:

    Northstar said:

    That may be their logic. Seems to me though that the choice is between some variant of the Johnson deal (a softish border now that may get softer under a future FTA), no deal (a hard border now that may get softer under a future FTA), and their preferred option which is Ref2/Revoke etc.

    Johnson's deal doesn't offer a softish border, unlike May's Deal. The NI business forum said it was worse than No Deal in fact. I am not sure Johnson's proposition is even a deal beyond the short term, because the suggested FTA is unlikely to happen for many years if at all and there's no built in Plan B. On its current trajectory, the Boris Deal is a transition to No Deal later.

    The Irish would also be happy with SM+CU+VAT area.
    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.
    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
  • Scott_P said:
    So whose pocket is Boris in ?

    It can't be Donald's as Trump wears red ties.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Byronic said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gabs2 said:



    Yes, it does. Direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy.

    And so what? Does that make it better? Can you point us to any current or historical polities successfully run as direct democracies, and if not, can you think why that might be? Do you campaign ceaselessly, or at all, for the introduction of more direct democracy in general in our constitution? Are you happy that a referendum on the death penalty would certainly reintroduce it?
    Switzerland
    Naah, the Swiss vote in about 5 referendums a year. Governing Switzerland requires >5 executive decisions a year. Plus they are such a weird nation that if it works there, that is actually evidence that it *doesn't* work in general.
    There may only be five *federal* refendums a year, but aren't there a reasonable number of *canton* level ones too?
    Yes, for some value of "reasonable." I think. But it is a hybrid - a representative democracy with strong direct elements. And anyway it is a one off and therefore not good evidence that the system is generally workable, or desirable.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Inded. A crossdressing international male model transitioning to be a woman with a small cottage in Greece would be a fine, fine Lord Protector of the New Republic of the United Kingdom. A life story so inspiring it cries out for an author to write it down and put it into print.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    edited October 2019
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    What a total cock.
  • Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Because she wants to damage Biden as well as Trump ?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    viewcode said:

    I used to quite like him. Then I used to have respect for his political skills. Now I just give up. Overeducated, undersmart, badly overpaid, a silly person in a government of silly people.


    Look at the twitter feed of this twonk ‘PeterRNeumann’. He’s utterly obsessed with Brexit, and with fighting Brexit. Valueless lunatic.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    FF43 said:

    At least Gove didn't mention punishment beatings at Nazi prison camps, unlike a certain former foreign minister. So we can mark this up as a diplomatic triumph, I guess.

    https://twitter.com/PeterRNeumann/status/1179824942021566468

    I guess the only consolation at a time of yet more national humiliation is that he did not say what he might have said had he been on what he was on last week in Parliament.

    "Whatever you do, don't mention the war! I did, but I think I got away with it....."

    Where is Basil when you need him?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    viewcode said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Inded. A crossdressing international male model transitioning to be a woman with a small cottage in Greece would be a fine, fine Lord Protector of the New Republic of the United Kingdom. A life story so inspiring it cries out for an author to write it down and put it into print.
    United ?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    FF43 said:

    Northstar said:

    That may be their logic. Seems to me though that the choice is between some variant of the Johnson deal (a softish border now that may get softer under a future FTA), no deal (a hard border now that may get softer under a future FTA), and their preferred option which is Ref2/Revoke etc.

    Johnson's deal doesn't offer a softish border, unlike May's Deal. The NI business forum said it was worse than No Deal in fact. I am not sure Johnson's proposition is even a deal beyond the short term, because the suggested FTA is unlikely to happen for many years if at all and there's no built in Plan B. On its current trajectory, the Boris Deal is a transition to No Deal later.

    The Irish would also be happy with SM+CU+VAT area.
    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.
    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Byronic said:

    viewcode said:

    I used to quite like him. Then I used to have respect for his political skills. Now I just give up. Overeducated, undersmart, badly overpaid, a silly person in a government of silly people.


    Look at the twitter feed of this twonk ‘PeterRNeumann’. He’s utterly obsessed with Brexit, and with fighting Brexit. Valueless lunatic.
    Irony is not dead.
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Useful information: if and when you use a phone box, be aware than none of them take the new £1 coins. You have to use 50, 20 and 10 pence coins.

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    The red throbbing phallus shape is a classic trope of patriarchal iconography.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    FF43 said:

    Northstar said:

    That may be their logic. Seems to me though that the choice is between some variant of the Johnson deal (a softish border now that may get softer under a future FTA), no deal (a hard border now that may get softer under a future FTA), and their preferred option which is Ref2/Revoke etc.

    Johnson's deal doesn't offer a softish border, unlike May's Deal. The NI business forum said it was worse than No Deal in fact. I am not sure Johnson's proposition is even a deal beyond the short term, because the suggested FTA is unlikely to happen for many years if at all and there's no built in Plan B. On its current trajectory, the Boris Deal is a transition to No Deal later.

    The Irish would also be happy with SM+CU+VAT area.
    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.
    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    “You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it.”
    Like the Brexit referendum you mean? Absolutely agree with you. Glad we’ve got that cleared up.
  • AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Useful information: if and when you use a phone box, be aware than none of them take the new £1 coins. You have to use 50, 20 and 10 pence coins.

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Inded. A crossdressing international male model transitioning to be a woman with a small cottage in Greece would be a fine, fine Lord Protector of the New Republic of the United Kingdom. A life story so inspiring it cries out for an author to write it down and put it into print.
    United ?
    Fair point
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    It wouldn't actually as most Tories are

    If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.

    I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.

    If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
    Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
    Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
    We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.

    So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
    No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violence
    Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
    Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.

    If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
    It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.

    Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
    Where does parliament derive its authority from?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2019
    DougSeal said:

    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Oh give it a rest! We didn't steal anything and you seem to want to rip up the GFA completely.

    The GFA recognises that NI is currently British and puts it on the people of NI to change that if they want to, while recognising that the people of NI can consider themselves Irish if they want to and having special arrangements etc, etc, etc - but you just want to say a giant "f**k you" to the unionists, rip that up completely, turn us back 40 years and fight it out.

    Not for me thanks. I'm a democrat and believe in self-determination and I'm happy for the voters to decide what they want. Hopefully you will respect democracy and the rule of law one day.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2019
    Ladies and gentlemen, I think PB has cracked it. The answer has been hiding in plain sight. As @DougSeal and @rcs1000 have discussed, the precedent is the Indiana Pi Bill, and the way forward on Brexit is for parliament to follow the lead of the Speaker of the Indiana House of Representatives, and refer the whole matter to the Committee on Swamplands.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:



    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    “You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it.”
    Like the Brexit referendum you mean? Absolutely agree with you. Glad we’ve got that cleared up.
    I agree. I think we should try as hard as possible to leave on the terms set out in the leave manifesto and as it becomes increasingly clear that departure on those terms promised is impossible then another democratic vote is legitimate. Apparently that makes me a Nazi. Oh well.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Your bot would be you, and it would recreate itself and so on.
    This is not a future I want.
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    FF43 said:

    Northstar said:

    That may be their logic. Seems to me though that the choice is between some variant of the Johnson deal (a softish border now that may get softer under a future FTA), no deal (a hard border now that may get softer under a future FTA), and their preferred option which is Ref2/Revoke etc.

    Johnson's deal doesn't offer a softish border, unlike May's Deal. The NI business forum said it was worse than No Deal in fact. I am not sure Johnson's proposition is even a deal beyond the short term, because the suggested FTA is unlikely to happen for many years if at all and there's no built in Plan B. On its current trajectory, the Boris Deal is a transition to No Deal later.

    The Irish would also be happy with SM+CU+VAT area.
    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.
    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    DougSeal said:

    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Oh give it a rest! We didn't steal anything and you seem to want to rip up the GFA completely.

    The GFA recognises that NI is currently British and puts it on the people of NI to change that if they want to, while recognising that the people of NI can consider themselves Irish if they want to and having special arrangements etc, etc, etc - but you just want to say a giant "f**k you" to the unionists, rip that up completely, turn us back 40 years and fight it out.

    Not for me thanks. I'm a democrat and believe in self-determination and I'm happy for the voters to decide what they want. Hopefully you will respect democracy and the rule of law one day.
    The issue is not whether Northern Irish have the self determination to be either or British or Irish. It's whether the UK government protects the interests of a constituent nation of the United Kingdom. Manifestly the Johnson regime is not doing that.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    I agree with Doug Seal. You really cannot disrespect the peoples vote and then expect them to do nothing about it. Well said sir.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Ladies and gentlemen, I think PB has cracked it. The answer has been hiding in plain sight. As @DougSeal and @rcs1000 have discussed, the precedent is the Indiana Pi Bill, and the way forward on Brexit is for parliament to follow the lead of the Speaker of the Indiana House of Representatives, and refer the whole matter to the Committee on Swamplands.

    Swampland Elite Remoaners. No way!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.

    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Oh give it a rest! We didn't steal anything and you seem to want to rip up the GFA completely.

    The GFA recognises that NI is currently British and puts it on the people of NI to change that if they want to, while recognising that the people of NI can consider themselves Irish if they want to and having special arrangements etc, etc, etc - but you just want to say a giant "f**k you" to the unionists, rip that up completely, turn us back 40 years and fight it out.

    Not for me thanks. I'm a democrat and believe in self-determination and I'm happy for the voters to decide what they want. Hopefully you will respect democracy and the rule of law one day.
    Northern Ireland is a fact on the ground. I wholeheartedly support the GFA. However you seem to think it should be treated as any other part of the UK. I’m sorry but the messy history we have there means we can’t do that and we have to respect Ireland’s interest in the matter - also part of the GFA but one you blithely dismiss as “imperialism” when it is nothing of the sort.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Your third idea will be done before we Brexit.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    FF43 said:

    Northstar said:

    That may be their logic. Seems to me though that the choice is between some variant of the Johnson deal (a softish border now that may get softer under a future FTA), no deal (a hard border now that may get softer under a future FTA), and their preferred option which is Ref2/Revoke etc.

    Johnson's deal doesn't offer a softish border, unlike May's Deal. The NI business forum said it was worse than No Deal in fact. I am not sure Johnson's proposition is even a deal beyond the short term, because the suggested FTA is unlikely to happen for many years if at all and there's no built in Plan B. On its current trajectory, the Boris Deal is a transition to No Deal later.

    The Irish would also be happy with SM+CU+VAT area.
    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.
    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2019
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    FF43 said:

    At least Gove didn't mention punishment beatings at Nazi prison camps, unlike a certain former foreign minister. So we can mark this up as a diplomatic triumph, I guess.

    https://twitter.com/PeterRNeumann/status/1179824942021566468

    I guess the only consolation at a time of yet more national humiliation is that he did not say what he might have said had he been on what he was on last week in Parliament.

    "Whatever you do, don't mention the war! I did, but I think I got away with it....."

    Where is Basil when you need him?
    Dunno. But I am pretty sure the Major is heading up one of our government departments.
  • Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
  • On other issues I asked this morning if the Conservative conference had had anything to say about student debt.

    As the ONS are now including expected unpaid student debt in the government borrowing it means there is over £10bn available each year to reduce tuition fees by.

    Have the Conservatives realised this or are they still pretending that the issue doesn't exist ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Noo said:
    Smash up the country and pay for the damage, albeit with someone else’s money.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Noo said:
    :lol:

    Cripes. We've smashed your peace agreement to pieces, will you accept £5billion by way of an apology.
  • Scott_P said:
    Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Scott_P said:
    Intriguing. Varadkar calling for a 2nd Brexit referendum feels like the EU dangerously overplaying its hand.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    What a total cock.
    How does anyone so stupid and insensitive make it through life to his age without giving fatal offence to someone?
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.

    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited October 2019
    Danny565 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Danny565 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
    Absolutely. All that matters now is leaving. We can sort out the other shit down the line. But to save the country and it’s democracy we really DO have to leave.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Byronic said:

    Danny565 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
    Absolutely. All that matters now is leaving. We can sort out the other shit down the line. But to save the country and it’s democracy we really DO have to leave.
    Nah. There are options either way.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,236
    Ishmael_Z said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Byronic said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gabs2 said:



    Yes, it does. Direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy.

    And so what? Does that make it better? Can you point us to any current or historical polities successfully run as direct democracies, and if not, can you think why that might be? Do you campaign ceaselessly, or at all, for the introduction of more direct democracy in general in our constitution? Are you happy that a referendum on the death penalty would certainly reintroduce it?
    Switzerland
    Naah, the Swiss vote in about 5 referendums a year. Governing Switzerland requires >5 executive decisions a year. Plus they are such a weird nation that if it works there, that is actually evidence that it *doesn't* work in general.
    There may only be five *federal* refendums a year, but aren't there a reasonable number of *canton* level ones too?
    Yes, for some value of "reasonable." I think. But it is a hybrid - a representative democracy with strong direct elements. And anyway it is a one off and therefore not good evidence that the system is generally workable, or desirable.
    That's right: it's definitely representative democracy, with some direct elements.

    My view, FWIW, is that the Swiss model works because it allows politicians to be alerted to strong views before they bubble over. It allows for the tiller of state to make small movements, rather than big ones. (Which, if you want to prosper, is a good thing.)
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Byronic said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gabs2 said:



    Yes, it does. Direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy.

    And so what? Does that make it better? Can you point us to any current or historical polities successfully run as direct democracies, and if not, can you think why that might be? Do you campaign ceaselessly, or at all, for the introduction of more direct democracy in general in our constitution? Are you happy that a referendum on the death penalty would certainly reintroduce it?
    Switzerland
    Naah, the Swiss vote in about 5 referendums a year. Governing Switzerland requires >5 executive decisions a year. Plus they are such a weird nation that if it works there, that is actually evidence that it *doesn't* work in general.
    Switzerland averages 10 National referendums a year and dozens of Canton and municipal referendums.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.

    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
    No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    Details of the latest YouGov yesterday are now out and see the LDs now comfortably ahead of Corbyn Labour with middle class ABC1 voters on 27% to 21% for Labour with the Tories ahead on 34%. With C2DE working class voters the Tories are also on 34% with Labour second on 22%.

    Some dramatic changes in the regional figures too, with the Tories now tied in London with Labour on 32% each with the LDs up to 24% and in Scotland the SNP vote has fallen to 35% (even below the 37% they got in 2017) with the Scottish LDs surging to 20% only 1% behind the Scottish Tories on 21% and with Scottish Labour collapsing to just 11%.

    In the South the Tories lead on 40% with the LDs second on 29% and in the Midlands and Wales the Tories also lead on 36% to 21% for Labour. Labour only lead in the North on 31% to 28% for the Tories

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mgv6oms6dw/TheTimes_191001_VI_Trackers_w.pdf
  • Scott_P said:
    Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
    It must the easiest deal in history. Why on earth is it all taking so long?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.

    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
    It was a border dispute which are very common. The whole point was that they disagreed with the border. It’s not illegal to have a dispute over something. Also, their constitution explicitly said, that the state’s jurisdiction only extended to the 26 counties.pending reintegration of the whole national territory.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Chris said:

    What a total cock.
    How does anyone so stupid and insensitive make it through life to his age without giving fatal offence to someone?
    Ask Corbyn. He’s much older.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited October 2019
    "....that was then, this is now...."

    = if you don't like the result of direct democracy, just play lip service while prevaricating and delaying, then eventually try claiming that due to the passage of time the result no longer applies and it's time to rerun the whole thing

    Imagine the reaction if, after a general election, the old government (which had lost) stayed in power then forced a general election 4 years later in the hope of being re-elected
  • Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,622
    edited October 2019
    Manchester Originals vs Northern Superchargers
    Birmingham Phoenix vs Trent Rockets
    Welsh Fire vs Southern Brave
    London Spirit vs Oval Invincibles

    Dearie me.

    I'm surprised that nobody's suggested that all ten fielders have to bowl ten deliveries each.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
    Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    .

    "....that was then, this is now...."

    = if you don't like the result of direct democracy, just play lip service while prevaricating and delaying, then eventually try claiming that due to the passage of time the result no longer applies and it's time to rerun the whole thing

    Imagine the reaction if, after a general election, the old government (which had lost) stayed in power then forced a general election 4 years later in the hope of being re-elected

    Yes, the MPs have filibustered the public
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Byronic said:

    Danny565 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    Wages are rising fast, employment is still near record levels, inflation has dived, interest rates are zero.

    If we are entering recession (like many other countries) it will (at least so far) be relatively painless.

    Not a game changer.
    Says the guy who has absolutely nothing to worry about in a recession.
    That makes me even more oracular. I have no inner bias.
    But it means your tolerance to risk is much higher.
    Agreed. I can take the longer view, because male modelling is so well paid.

    In all probability, and setting vanity aside, I should be the Lord Protector of the new UK republic.
    Rather you than Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good. I would seek immediate entry into EFTA/EEA with temporary membership of the Customs Union. Thus solving all our immediate problems, and salvaging our economy and our democracy.

    From there I would seek a long term max fac solution to the Irish border issue, and slow divergence and deregulation away from the EU, pending our likely departure from the EEA, over time. 5-15 years.

    I would also invest billions in voice cloning sex bots, that recreate your first love.

    Honestly, I do feel that if we'd left the EU in March, but stayed in the Single Market and Customs Union, almost the entire country would be satisfied enough now. I think most Leave voters are really past the point of caring about specific, tangible things they want out of Brexit; they just don't want to feel politicians are slapping them in the face by rejecting the referendum result outright (or having to admit to themselves that they made the wrong choice back in 2016).

    Unfortunately, most politicians are too self-interested to go with the obvious compromise.
    Absolutely. All that matters now is leaving. We can sort out the other shit down the line. But to save the country and it’s democracy we really DO have to leave.
    Been saying this for three years and three months
  • Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
    Me too.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
    Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
    When you look at your opinion polls, do you ever stop to notice that they sometimes move and are sometimes wrong? Try it. Whole new worlds will open up for you.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    So he thought he could buy off the Irish and clearly doesn’t have a clue about the sensitivities surrounding the border . Peace isn’t for sale !

    Can this wretched government get any lower , they continue to destroy the UKs international reputation .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Useful information: if and when you use a phone box, be aware than none of them take the new £1 coins. You have to use 50, 20 and 10 pence coins.

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)

    Well done for knowing her number! Doubt I know more than five that are in my phone
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Of what possible relevance is that?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    If the choice on the ballot had been Remain vs EEA I would have taken EEA. Today it’s the best way to respect the result of the referendum. But it’s not on anyone’s agenda so I reluctantly have come to support a second referendum. I know my party’s policy is to simply revoke but the odds on us getting a majority to do that are vanishingly small. If it were to come to pass I would be in a difficult position I admit but I’ll cross that bridge in the unlikely event I come to it.

    Even I would accept EEA and I am probably as die-hard a Remainer as they come.

    Ironically, pre-Brexit, I was something of a Leaver.
    Me too. Seriously, if a credible, worked out leave proposal had been on the table I would have taken it, as I have real doubts as to where the EU is going. But there wasn’t and still isn’t. Remain is the only credible option that preserves 5he economy and the Union.
    Wrong, SNP down to just 35% with YouGov this week despite Brexit while in NI Boris' plan avoids a hard border
    Boris' plan doesn't avoid a hard border. If it did then everyone (not just turncoats with no political integrity) would be praising it.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Scott_P said:
    Oh £350m a week for the Irish NHS.
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.

    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
    It was a border dispute which are very common. The whole point was that they disagreed with the border. It’s not illegal to have a dispute over something. Also, their constitution explicitly said, that the state’s jurisdiction only extended to the 26 counties.pending reintegration of the whole national territory.
    There are lots of disputes around the world but I think the territorial claim may have been illegal. In any case it was certainly undiplomatic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    edited October 2019
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Of what possible relevance is that?
    Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
  • isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Useful information: if and when you use a phone box, be aware than none of them take the new £1 coins. You have to use 50, 20 and 10 pence coins.

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)

    Well done for knowing her number! Doubt I know more than five that are in my phone
    Off by heart I know my own, my wife's and my dad's numbers. That is it, the rest are saved on my phone and bizarrely my wife's since somehow a while back my contacts merged with hers - we're not sure why! I'm presuming I logged onto something on hers but I don't know what or how.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
    Yes, the EU is steering Britain to a very bad place where, in the end, we will just say fuck it, we’re not destroying our democracy. We’re out. And if that means a hard border, so be it.

    Can they see this? I hope so. They can be forgiven for frustration at our wankiness.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Of what possible relevance is that?
    Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
    It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
    Except that we have basically been fucking with them for centuries, and all they have done is try to make sure we comply with an international treaty that we signed. But otherwise yes I see your point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,616
    HYUFD said:

    Details of the latest YouGov yesterday are now out and see the LDs now comfortably ahead of Corbyn Labour with middle class ABC1 voters on 27% to 21% for Labour with the Tories ahead on 34%. With C2DE working class voters the Tories are also on 34% with Labour second on 22%.

    Some dramatic changes in the regional figures too, with the Tories now tied in London with Labour on 32% each with the LDs up to 24% and in Scotland the SNP vote has fallen to 35% (even below the 37% they got in 2017) with the Scottish LDs surging to 20% only 1% behind the Scottish Tories on 21% and with Scottish Labour collapsing to just 11%.

    In the South the Tories lead on 40% with the LDs second on 29% and in the Midlands and Wales the Tories also lead on 36% to 21% for Labour. Labour only lead in the North on 31% to 28% for the Tories

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mgv6oms6dw/TheTimes_191001_VI_Trackers_w.pdf

    So why the change on wanting an election, Mr Corbyn?
  • Scott_P said:
    How have the Irish not just told the British to go fuck themselves by now? They must be doing some kind of serious yoga or something, I would have really lost my shit by now the way we are carrying on.
    The feeling's mutual.

    Hopefully if the EU reject this deal pending an election we actually have one, Boris comes back with a stonking majority and says the whole country is leaving, there's no Irish Sea Border, you rejected that old deal now talk to us before we say goodbye.
    Except that we have basically been fucking with them for centuries, and all they have done is try to make sure we comply with an international treaty that we signed. But otherwise yes I see your point.
    No they're not, nothing in the treaty prevents even a hard no deal Brexit as the courts have already ruled.
  • rpjs said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    If the Irish wish to be in the SM+CU+VAT area then good luck to them, they should be in it.

    We on the other hand get to control what we be in. They don't get to control that. Trying to force stuff on other countries is called imperialism.

    That’s beyond parody. The Irish are not trying to force us to do anything. The only imperialism round these parts is arguably that we are sitting in 6 of their 32 counties. If we had respected the democratic vote of the jurisdiction of Ireland in 1919 that ratified the all-Ireland republic declared in 1916 we would not be having this problem. It’s our own imperialism that has caused this mess. They are trying to find a solution that lets us keep NI. You should be thankful.
    The 6 counties aren't theirs they are British.

    If the residents there wish to become Irish they are free to do so. Other than that I couldn't care less and am not thankfully. If they want an open border then let them negotiate and make concessions, otherwise we should just walk away and ask where they want the border posts if they're not giving us a deal on terms we can accept.
    Views differ. You cannot disrespect the vote of a people and then expect those people to do nothing about it. That is what happened and we stole part of their land. The existence of Northern Ireland is a historical injustice - you can’t just say to people you have stolen from, however long ago, just “suck it up”. They have a right to insist on the preservation of the compromises they made to give up their constitutional claim. We are, as we have through history, behaving appallingly.
    Wasn't the Irish territorial claim on Northern Ireland illegal ?
    Under which law? It was part of their constitution.
    International law IIRC.

    Claiming that part of another country is rightfully yours being likely to cause offence sort of thing.
    No, it's not against international law to claim territory belonging to another. Most countries have some sort of ongoing boundary dispute with one or more neighbours. It's the doing stuff to enforce the claim that can be illegal under international law, such as military action, blockades etc.
    Perhaps it was European law then - territorial claims against fellow members upsetting the brotherhood of nations blah and blah.

    I really don't know but I do vaguely recall it was a point of contention and it was changed.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Yes but 44% were opposed IIRC. Those two numbers are interesting the 44% and the 46%. If that is a reflection of the popular vote, then it is all about the ground game in the EC & voter turnout in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. Biden might be able to bank those states whereas HC lost them.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Useful information: if and when you use a phone box, be aware than none of them take the new £1 coins. You have to use 50, 20 and 10 pence coins.

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)

    Well done for knowing her number! Doubt I know more than five that are in my phone
    Off by heart I know my own, my wife's and my dad's numbers. That is it, the rest are saved on my phone and bizarrely my wife's since somehow a while back my contacts merged with hers - we're not sure why! I'm presuming I logged onto something on hers but I don't know what or how.
    I know the parents of my schoolmates house phone numbers! But only a couple of mobiles other than my own, not even my parents or girlfriends which is quite poor actually.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:



    It was a border dispute which are very common. The whole point was that they disagreed with the border. It’s not illegal to have a dispute over something. Also, their constitution explicitly said, that the state’s jurisdiction only extended to the 26 counties.pending reintegration of the whole national territory.

    There are lots of disputes around the world but I think the territorial claim may have been illegal. In any case it was certainly undiplomatic.
    The claim was in the Irish Constitution from 1938 onwards. Given the passions surrounding the partition of Ireland I think diplomacy was the last thing on anyone’s mind. Under our Ireland Act 1922 we implicitly claimed the right to legislate for the whole of Ireland, That wasn’t repealed until the GFA in 1998 either
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I thinkox.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Of what possible relevance is that?
    Everything as Trump won a comfortable Electoral College victory in 2016 despite losing the popular vote nationally by 2%, as long as he keeps support for impeachment under 50% he is likely re elected
    It’s an opinion poll about impeachment, not voting intention. The two are not the same thing
    When 79% of Democrats support impeaching the President and only 12% of Republicans support impeaching the President they largely are the same thing
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Are Leavers having a comedown tonight after the narcotic thrills earlier of the sketch of a phantasm of a deal?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    HYUFD said:

    Details of the latest YouGov yesterday are now out and see the LDs now comfortably ahead of Corbyn Labour with middle class ABC1 voters on 27% to 21% for Labour with the Tories ahead on 34%. With C2DE working class voters the Tories are also on 34% with Labour second on 22%.

    Some dramatic changes in the regional figures too, with the Tories now tied in London with Labour on 32% each with the LDs up to 24% and in Scotland the SNP vote has fallen to 35% (even below the 37% they got in 2017) with the Scottish LDs surging to 20% only 1% behind the Scottish Tories on 21% and with Scottish Labour collapsing to just 11%.

    In the South the Tories lead on 40% with the LDs second on 29% and in the Midlands and Wales the Tories also lead on 36% to 21% for Labour. Labour only lead in the North on 31% to 28% for the Tories

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mgv6oms6dw/TheTimes_191001_VI_Trackers_w.pdf

    So why the change on wanting an election, Mr Corbyn?
    As he knows he faces a 1983 style trouncing
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Scott_P said:
    Pah! What's the problem? We still have a couple of weeks to sort out minor adminstrative details like that.
    It must the easiest deal in history. Why on earth is it all taking so long?
    Because talking bullsh*t is not the same as actually knowing stuff?

    Is there a course at Eton and other "public" schools called "How to talk complete cr*p about anything"? They all seem to be very skilled at it.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    Useful information: if and when you use a phone box, be aware than none of them take the new £1 coins. You have to use 50, 20 and 10 pence coins.

    Does anyone use phone boxes anymore? Do they still exist?
    Yes, I used one in Lincoln city centre a few weeks back. My mobile died on me and I was due to meet a friend for lunch so I popped into a phone box and called her to let her know that my mobile wasn't working. :)

    Well done for knowing her number! Doubt I know more than five that are in my phone
    Off by heart I know my own, my wife's and my dad's numbers. That is it, the rest are saved on my phone and bizarrely my wife's since somehow a while back my contacts merged with hers - we're not sure why! I'm presuming I logged onto something on hers but I don't know what or how.
    I know the parents of my schoolmates house phone numbers! But only a couple of mobiles other than my own, not even my parents or girlfriends which is quite poor actually.
    I only know my wife's and my dad's because they've had the same number for years (as have I). I've had the same phone number since 2004. My mum's changed hers a number of times when she's swapped phones so I couldn't tell you hers.

    Other than that I know a few landlines like work's number, but that's different to people's mobiles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,151

    HYUFD said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.

    Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.

    That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.
    That is plausible in that it seems a crazy thing to try and impeach on. It hurts Biden almost as much as Trump.

    So why did Pelosi switch?
    Pelosi switched because she suddenly realised that Trump was trying to subvert the election. She should have noticed earlier, to be frank, but once you get to the point where you believe the president is trying to stop you being able to remove him via the ballot box, you have to go all in.
    There were sound legal grounds for impeachment after Mueller but she made the political judgement that it might well backfire on the Democrats. Ukraine however made it impossible for her not to act. If an opposition Party does not act on something like Ukraine, it may as well disband.
    Quite. I think she was wrong not to dive in straight after the Mueller Report. Still, they're basically in the right place albeit 6 months behind where they should have been. It should be enough to expose Trump's hideous corruption and smash him at the ballot box.
    Public support is needed if impeachment is to succeed. It has increased a lot in the past week or so. Nate Silver's mob are tracking it here.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/

    Of course Trump's base will want a lot of shifting but it's the independents you need to watch. They are about 41% in favour of impeachment. If it gets to 50%, he's probably toast, whatever his base may say.
    Only 46% still support impeaching Trump, less than the 48% who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    Yes but 44% were opposed IIRC. Those two numbers are interesting the 44% and the 46%. If that is a reflection of the popular vote, then it is all about the ground game in the EC & voter turnout in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. Biden might be able to bank those states whereas HC lost them.
    Biden might, Warren would not and she is now the likely nominee for the Dems
This discussion has been closed.