Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
The will of parliament is that the PM applies for an extension to avoid no-deal. Nothing here is bypassing that - the EU can approve or reject that as it likes.
Perhaps parliament should have ruled out no-deal in the three chances it already had ….. but it preferred to play silly games.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with Macron
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the Commonwealth
So more showboating by Bozo to put a deal before the Commons before the EU council meeting .
It would be hilarious if it was amended to include a second vote .
There will probably be an attempt
317 MPs voted for the Brady amendment and the Withdrawal Amendment minus the backstop ie close to the Boris Deal, only 280 MPs voted for a confirmatory referendum on any Deal in the second round of indicative votes
I see you’ve dug up the Brady corpse! Voting for a unicorn . I’m sure the Commons also would have voted for all the benefits and none of the obligations out of the EU.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with Macron
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the Commonwealth
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with Macron
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the Commonwealth
The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violence
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with Macron
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the Commonwealth
The Johnson Deal is BAD. The only good thing about it is that it will almost certainly never see light of day. The proposal retains the downsides of May's Deal, loses all of that deal's advantages, save one. It adds much more significant problems of its own, particularly for Northern Ireland. It's probably unworkable operationally and it misconceives the purpose of international treaties.
I get that Johnson's Deal is really a political manouevre for his domestic market. But it needs to be underpinned by a real deal.
Oh yes it's terrible.
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violence
No you don't. Your mistake is in thinking that things which have the same generic name must all be exactly the same thing. So football is all football whether it's association, rugby, gridiron, Gaelic or Aussie rules. The difference between our constitution, and one in which things are done by plebiscite, is much, much wider than the gap between association and rugby football, and it is trying to play under elements arbitrarily selected from either rulebook which has got us where we are now. Perhaps if we popularised the term "ochlocracy" for the thinking behind the Wilson and Cameron referendums (which is what it is) that would clear up the confusion, and save the "Did Magna Carta Die In Vain" crowd from bloviating itself to death.
The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with Macron
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the Commonwealth
The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respnoured.
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.
In the March 1933 elections the Nazis won 43% of the vote and 288 seats and with the 52 seats from the Nationalist Conservative DNVP crossed the 324 seats threshold needed for a majority.
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point
The Johnson Deal is BAD. The only good thing about it is that it will almost certainly never see light of day. The proposal retains the downsides of May's Deal, loses all of that deal's advantages, save one. It adds much more significant problems of its own, particularly for Northern Ireland. It's probably unworkable operationally and it misconceives the purpose of international treaties.
I get that Johnson's Deal is really a political manouevre for his domestic market. But it needs to be underpinned by a real deal.
Oh yes it's terrible.
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.
"Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers"?? How many of each of them are there?
No wonder they ran rings around May, Johnson and co.
The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violence
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violence
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respnoured.
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.
In the March 1933 elections the Nazis won 43% of the vote and 288 seats and with the 52 seats from the Nationalist Conservative DNVP crossed the 324 seats threshold needed for a majority.
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point
But they already had control of the levers of power by that time - Hitler having been Chancellor since 30th January. The last genuinely free elections were in Autumn 1932 when the Nazis lost ground compared with the Reichstag elections held earlier that year.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
The Johnson Deal is BAD. The only good thing about it is that it will almost certainly never see light of day. The proposal retains the downsides of May's Deal, loses all of that deal's advantages, save one. It adds much more significant problems of its own, particularly for Northern Ireland. It's probably unworkable operationally and it misconceives the purpose of international treaties.
I get that Johnson's Deal is really a political manouevre for his domestic market. But it needs to be underpinned by a real deal.
Oh yes it's terrible.
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.
Well this proposal is worse in every way than May's Deal that Johnson rejected. The deal was there and presumably still is. I'm not saying May's Deal is great. Simply that's it's better and available.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respnoured.
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.
In the March 1933 elections the Nazis won 43% of the vote and 288 seats and with the 52 seats from the Nationalist Conservative DNVP crossed the 324 seats threshold needed for a majority.
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point
You mean the March 1933 election that took place "after Nazi stormtroopers had unleashed a widespread campaign of violence against the Communist Party (KPD), left-wingers, trade unionists, the Social Democratic Party of Germany, and the Centre Party"?
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
Careful. Some people might take the... wrong lessons... from watching it.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
They just got their Commissioner vetoed by the European Parliament.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.
Exactly. As noted above, it is like livening up the Premier League by incorporating some of the choicer Aussie Rules rules, but without doing anything to integrate them.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
Careful. Some people might take the... wrong lessons... from watching it.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.
Where did the impression that remain represented the so called metropolitan elite? When leave was always the campaign behind which the real elite hid to further their own financial gains. That is why we have a parliamentary democracy so that people do not make decisions on gut feel reactions.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one option
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.
Where did the impression that remain represented the so called metropolitan elite? When leave was always the campaign behind which the real elite hid to further their own financial gains. That is why we have a parliamentary democracy so that people do not make decisions on gut feel reactions.
Not entirely sure about the financial gains bit but both campaigns thought they knew best. And their respective supporters agreed with them.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?
A fantastic free trade deal covering the very finest Tokaji?
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independent be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
HMG is the legitimate executive for foreign policy. Not random groups of MPs.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?
They’re a member of the European Union. With the same rights as any other member State.
Their domestic situation is irrelevant. The European Union ensures all member states comply with and honour the principles on which it was founded.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one option
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?
A fantastic free trade deal covering the very finest Tokaji?
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
Poor wee Leo - fucked his tin pot country for a decade.
You're an asset to this site IMO because you say out aloud what Johnson and his coterie clearly think. An attitude that the Irish must be all too conscious of.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independent be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
Ooops, did I mis-type there?
Episode 1: "2010 - Helped into Power"
Just out of interest who did you vote for in 2010?
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
But we would still have revoked!
So Boris stands on a platform of repealing the European Communities Act. Brexit vote goes to the Tory on a big turnout.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?
I don't think your opinion is illegitimate. I think you support an illegitimate position. Just as I think someone that wants to bring back absolutist monarchh supports an undemocratic, illegitimate position.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!
Not quite sure what you mean. All governments are “free”with other people’s money as they can only spend other people’s money.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one option
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter
Poor wee Leo - fucked his tin pot country for a decade.
You're an asset to this site IMO because you say out aloud what Johnson and his coterie clearly think. An attitude that the Irish must be all too conscious of.
You add insight. Thank you.
On a serious note getting caught between a UK focused on low tax/regulation post Brexit and an EU focused on the opposite would see Eire up shit creek, to put it mildly...
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
Yes but who knows what the outcome of such an election would be, or even what the party platforms would be going into it.
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracy
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independent be dishonoured.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
Ooops, did I mis-type there?
Episode 1: "2010 - Helped into Power"
Just out of interest who did you vote for in 2010?
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!
Labour were all about hosing other peoples money up the wall and you were ok with that until they turned hard left and embraced the lunatic anti semitic left.
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?
I don't think your opinion is illegitimate. I think you support an illegitimate position. Just as I think someone that wants to bring back absolutist monarchh supports an undemocratic, illegitimate position.
It's so nice to meet the arbiter of what legitimate positions are. Suppose I said to you that Brexit was an illegitimate, undemocratic position. Is that different because, well, I'm not you, the Chosen One?
The only solution is ctr alt del or pull the plug out what a waste of three year to decide how badly you destroy your future all because the Tory party was worried about ......ha ha ha UKIP well let them sort it out and live and die with the consequences but it will always be what’s best for the Tory party not the country. You don’t have to look too far for evidence to support that
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one option
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
Yes but who knows what the outcome of such an election would be, or even what the party platforms would be going into it.
Nobody can know for sure, but I strongly believe Boris would get 40%+ of the vote while neither the Lib Dems or Labour would get over 30%.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Genius...
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with Macron
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the Commonwealth
It is expressly the law of the land it is not @HYUFD That was the point of the Act. Ireland left the Commonwealth so a special provision was made. Look at section 2 -
People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!
Not quite sure what you mean. All governments are “free”with other people’s money as they can only spend other people’s money.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!
Labour were all about hosing other peoples money up the wall and you were ok with that until they turned hard left and embraced the lunatic anti semitic left.
And you opposed it until it was being done by a friend of xenophobes, bigots and white supremacists!
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?
I don't think your opinion is illegitimate. I think you support an illegitimate position. Just as I think someone that wants to bring back absolutist monarchh supports an undemocratic, illegitimate position.
It's so nice to meet the arbiter of what legitimate positions are. Suppose I said to you that Brexit was an illegitimate, undemocratic position. Is that different because, well, I'm not you, the Chosen One?
You are entitled to argue your case just as I am. Others can judge how compelling our cases are. That is the beauty of free speech and debate.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
But we would still have revoked!
So Boris stands on a platform of repealing the European Communities Act. Brexit vote goes to the Tory on a big turnout.
Yep - and then we spend another few years trying to get out of the European Union.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
It’s what I’m hearing.
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!
Not quite sure what you mean. All governments are “free”with other people’s money as they can only spend other people’s money.
Let's not spend billions on the NHS, let's give it to the DUP and Hungary instead. Catchy :-D
People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
Brexit is leaving the EU, nothing more, nothing less. The act of leaving, under any deal or no deal, has a mandate. The act of remaning is undenocratic. It is up to parliament whether they want to accompany the act of leaving with a deal.
People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
100% right, other than Johnson's deal is not a deal. It's a proposal. It's only a deal if both parties agree. At the moment, it's far from clear that either party agrees. The technical description for a proposal that neither side agrees with is a "you spaffed your time up the wall, you stupid blond gimp, what the fuck were you thinking, this is such total garbage". Or "garbage" for short.
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1179827411233447938?s=21 Feels like an accurate view of where we are at - if there’s enough wiggle room shown by Boris, we might see negotiators enter the fabled ‘tunnel’. Parliament and Ireland acting as bad cops in this negotiation, Junker as good cop (God help us)...
People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
Johnson's proposals cannot work without the consent of the majority of people in Northern Ireland.
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.
But we would still have revoked!
So Boris stands on a platform of repealing the European Communities Act. Brexit vote goes to the Tory on a big turnout.
Yep - and then we spend another few years trying to get out of the European Union.
With a massive Tory majority and all its Remainers deselected.
Comments
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.
Perhaps parliament should have ruled out no-deal in the three chances it already had ….. but it preferred to play silly games.
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point
No wonder they ran rings around May, Johnson and co.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Well that just about sums you up
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
I agree on gyms and mailing-lists though...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_electionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election
Simply astounding!
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter
Episode 1: "2010 - Helped into Power"
Their domestic situation is irrelevant. The European Union ensures all member states comply with and honour the principles on which it was founded.
Then again them's the rules of the EU so all's fair and all that.
You add insight. Thank you.
High stakes for all concerned.
But I voted Labour in 2015
Suppose I said to you that Brexit was an illegitimate, undemocratic position. Is that different because, well, I'm not you, the Chosen One?
Brexit really has driven some people mad.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/41/enacted
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
There are many battles they would like to have with the EU but Leavers are becoming desperate if they think they’re going to veto an extension .
What's the logic of that when we know more Leavers than Remainers will have passed away and the new under-22 voters are more Remain oriented?
It's only a deal if both parties agree. At the moment, it's far from clear that either party agrees. The technical description for a proposal that neither side agrees with is a "you spaffed your time up the wall, you stupid blond gimp, what the fuck were you thinking, this is such total garbage". Or "garbage" for short.
Feels like an accurate view of where we are at - if there’s enough wiggle room shown by Boris, we might see negotiators enter the fabled ‘tunnel’. Parliament and Ireland acting as bad cops in this negotiation, Junker as good cop (God help us)...