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Working class voters want tax cuts here in the US, Trump is actually a bigger spender than Tea Party Republicans would like and the working class like tighter immigration controls here as in the US too as well as lots of patriotism.IanB2 said:
The Tories would then have the same challenge that the US Republicans have - how to win over the working classes to vote against their own economic interest. In the US they have religion an a host of cultural issues to use as levers. I can’t see the same approach working as well in the UK once Brexit itself drops down the agenda.SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
That is how0 -
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It's vital that he avoids prison. We know what happens to pretty boys like Boris when they go inside.Philip_Thompson said:
If he's not going to deny royal assent, this is the next best option IMO.Scott_P said:
If the Supreme Court rule in his favour so be it. If the Supreme Court rules against him he has no choice but to follow the law. Either way the law is honoured and he has done everything in his power.0 -
It goes beyond Cameron...Major needed to kick out the swivel eyed loonies, and lance the boil. Now the management of the asylum has effectively changed to a new group....ThomasNashe said:David Cameron first saved the Tory Party, and then destroyed it.
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Nicky Morgan, Monday morning, I reckon.WhisperingOracle said:I wonder who else will follow. There's an awful lot of people who could go in the Lords.
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Boris failed - what else matters.Philip_Thompson said:
The problem with these hypotheticals is it doesn't say why the election is post-Halloween or how people acted between now and then.Gallowgate said:0 -
Yet we are assured it will make no difference by philip thompson and others. Pollsters will look foolish if he is right.Gallowgate said:0 -
Oh how exciting. No doubt leavers will be spluttering into their pints tonight as the Surrey Advertiser breaks the devastating news.Scott_P said:0 -
What a numpty. You can't have your cake and eat it, you plank.Scott_P said:0 -
That's very surprising to me, as I thought grassroots Labour was moving to an even greater Remain position. What's going on there ?beentheredonethat said:
This is very interesting. Will this sort of thing trigger Labour MP desertions to LDs?Gallowgate said:
To lose Starmer would be massive. He has been a driving force against the Momentum invasion.0 -
So 3% lead current VI poll from ComRes. Pollsters are all over the place.0
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Proceed to the exit Phil you twat.Scott_P said:1 -
I would say that only in America were the original goals of the revolutionaries achieved. The other countries all descended very quickly into civil war.Byronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/
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Which is why Boris will not extend himself and the departures of anti Brexiteers like Rudd and Hammond and Clark and Lee and Grieve is painful for some but necessaryGallowgate said:1 -
Angela Smith was the MP who got into trouble for allegedly using the phrase "funny tinge", although she apologised almost immediately.0
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Realistically these totals no longer matter. There is no majority and that is unsustainable, there needs to be an election and the government recognises this.AndyJS said:Number of government MPs drops to 288, (when this is updated).
https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/
Whether it is 289, 288, 270 or 260 is rather moot now. What matters is how many post-election.0 -
He's almost gotten the Labour party to victory (on the remain front at any rate). I think he can put up with momentum shenanigans rather than self destruct the party at the same time as the Tories.beentheredonethat said:
This is very interesting. Will this sort of thing trigger Labour MP desertions to LDs?Gallowgate said:
To lose Starmer would be massive. He has been a driving force against the Momentum invasion.0 -
Why not? Boris Johnson did.KentRising said:
What a numpty. You can't have your cake and eat it, you plank.Scott_P said:0 -
Corbyn and his mates finally getting sick of Starmer's die hard remainerism?beentheredonethat said:
This is very interesting. Will this sort of thing trigger Labour MP desertions to LDs?Gallowgate said:
To lose Starmer would be massive. He has been a driving force against the Momentum invasion.0 -
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.ydoethur said:
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.Sunil_Prasannan said:Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert.
Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines)
Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness
Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland)
Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen
And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
EDIT: I wonder if anyone out there is trying to yellow line the network entirely on rail replacement buses?1 -
I think they're interesting, but far from conclusive.Philip_Thompson said:
The problem with these hypotheticals is it doesn't say why the election is post-Halloween or how people acted between now and then.Gallowgate said:0 -
These polls are virtually worthless, and voodoo, as they will seriously confuse 70% of voters.Scott_P said:0 -
We feel your pain.GIN1138 said:Amber Rudd was a very bizarre cabinet appointment.
Suspect she just took the position so she'd be able to resign and go out in a blaze of glory?0 -
Zimbabwe ... failed stateByronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/
Venezuala ... failed state
Nicaragua ... revolution failed
Jacobite rebellion failed
The peasants revolt
Cromwell
Hungary 1956
Prague Spring
etc, etc
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edit0
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BREAKING NEWS: Tory MP retains whip.4
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Boris failed because the Remainers in Parliament frustrated him. That is why its critical every Leaver backs the Tories so that the Remainers don't win again.eek said:
Boris failed - what else matters.Philip_Thompson said:
The problem with these hypotheticals is it doesn't say why the election is post-Halloween or how people acted between now and then.Gallowgate said:
Easy sales pitch.0 -
Evening all
Fascinating ComRes numbers:
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170441862060154881
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/11704421135462563870 -
If he gets an election - how would you feel if it's April, Boris is still a minority PM unable to get anything through Parliament being forced to ask for a 3rd extension.Philip_Thompson said:
Realistically these totals no longer matter. There is no majority and that is unsustainable, there needs to be an election and the government recognises this.AndyJS said:Number of government MPs drops to 288, (when this is updated).
https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/
Whether it is 289, 288, 270 or 260 is rather moot now. What matters is how many post-election.0 -
I've always thought parties can do as they like in such matters, so long as they follow their own rules, and if the rules say the party can kick you out for defying a three line whip/confidence vote, what does he have to argue?Scott_P said:
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I've updated the thread with the BritainElects/ComRes polling.
New defection - I'm defecting to bed.0 -
I’d love a Greater London GE VI poll. Could see some serious churn there.0
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I have to say that I tend to agree with Byronic here. The achievement of a significant change of system is one that can be fairly objectively measured, whereas how far that change is in character with its earliest goals could be described as a question that's more subjective.SouthamObserver said:
I would say that only in America were the original goals of the revolutionaries achieved. The other countries all descended very quickly into civil war.Byronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/0 -
As did America less than a century laterSouthamObserver said:
I would say that only in America were the original goals of the revolutionaries achieved. The other countries all descended very quickly into civil war.Byronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/0 -
Very debatable history there. The best you can say is that many revolutions sow seeds that eventually bear fruit (or alternatively that the pressures that led to the revolution ensure and eventually lead to more sustainable change). The French Revolution led to an Emperor and then back to the restoration of the monarchy. The English Civil War led to the restoration of the monarchy. The Glorious wasnt a revolution at all, but a successful invasion and takeover by the Dutch that was subsequently re-written in history to airbrush out this inconvenience. Russia hardly succeeded against any objective assessment of the aspirations of those who participated. Etc.Byronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/0 -
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I'm baffled by a list that includes the Russian and French revolutions as successes. On their own terms they were abject failures.Beibheirli_C said:
Zimbabwe ... failed stateByronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/
Venezuala ... failed state
Nicaragua ... revolution failed
Jacobite rebellion failed
The peasants revolt
Cromwell
Hungary 1956
Prague Spring
etc, etc0 -
0
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Like the Millar cases they become law and if Boris won then the whole system of parliamentary legislation is in real trouble, as is everybodysurbiton19 said:
If the Supreme Court says he can, what will be the difference between the UK, Russia, North Korea etc.Scott_P said:0 -
Question for Brexiteers. Is this poll:Scott_P said:
(1) Good for Boris?
(2) Outstanding for Boris?
(3) [Can't reply because I died and went to heaven when I saw it.]0 -
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.0 -
Did Comres not have a traditional comparable VI poll?0
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Labour has been completely taken over by middle class Marxism, and North London is the epicentre of middle class Marxism. The ideologically impure will be purged!WhisperingOracle said:
That's very surprising to me, as I thought grassroots Labour was moving to an even greater Remain position. What's going on there ?beentheredonethat said:
This is very interesting. Will this sort of thing trigger Labour MP desertions to LDs?Gallowgate said:
To lose Starmer would be massive. He has been a driving force against the Momentum invasion.0 -
Beginning to think a GONU (probably time-limited to allow enough time for a referendum, but possibly, alternatively, running until 2022) is inevitable. It's the only way out of this.0
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The problem is Boris has the polling numbers and is desperate for a GE but the opposition, who can read the same polls and know they will lose, have the numbers to prevent a GE.Philip_Thompson said:
Realistically these totals no longer matter. There is no majority and that is unsustainable, there needs to be an election and the government recognises this.
Whether it is 289, 288, 270 or 260 is rather moot now. What matters is how many post-election.
Boris is therefore trapped - he can't take us out of the EU on 31/10 and he can't call a GE.
I suspect an alternative non-Corbyn led Government would be far more stable, successful and ultimately popular than many on here realise.0 -
Is it a good idea for the Daily Mail to publicise this ?Scott_P said:
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That's worrying for Boris and suggests he's very much on probation. If he screws Brexit up then the will of the people seems prepared to let Jezza have a go. Boris must, must, must hit that 31 October deadline, preferably with No Deal to shoot Nigel's fox.Scott_P said:0 -
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.Pro_Rata said:
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.ydoethur said:
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.Sunil_Prasannan said:Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert.
Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines)
Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness
Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland)
Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen
And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
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Yes, and fifty virgins await you in heaven.Monkeys said:
And if only one side grasps this fact and tries to gain ground....the balance shifts in their favour, which is all it will take to win. The Tory party will be reshaped. We're going to No-Deal.Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
You’re all fanatics. Totally brainwashed. Bin Laden and HItler loved morons like you. You’d be buckling up suicide belts if you thought it would ensure the ecstasy of Brexit.0 -
I think anger at opposition gameplaying and refusing an election while Boris is constantly campaigning would be at boiling point and Boris's Tories could be on 45% not 40% by then.eek said:
If he gets an election - how would you feel if it's April, Boris is still a minority PM unable to get anything through Parliament being forced to ask for a 3rd extension.Philip_Thompson said:
Realistically these totals no longer matter. There is no majority and that is unsustainable, there needs to be an election and the government recognises this.AndyJS said:Number of government MPs drops to 288, (when this is updated).
https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/
Whether it is 289, 288, 270 or 260 is rather moot now. What matters is how many post-election.0 -
Yep. The party had a rule, you broke it you're out on your ear, as simple as that. Grow a pair.kle4 said:
I've always thought parties can do as they like in such matters, so long as they follow their own rules, and if the rules say the party can kick you out for defying a three line whip/confidence vote, what does he have to argue?Scott_P said:0 -
Gallowgate said:
So 3% lead current VI poll from ComRes. Pollsters are all over the place.
Not really. The direction of travel is pretty clear which is what pollsters measure best - Tory lead increasing. Labour in decline. MPs (and increasingly voters) switching to LDs.0 -
That ‘500,000 Britons hooked on opioids’ story in the Sunday Times is pretty scary.0
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And the public are sick of Brexit.kle4 said:
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.
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Revolutions aren't a good historical analogy. It feels more like a descent in to Civil war.Beibheirli_C said:
Zimbabwe ... failed stateByronic said:
Revolutions nearly always fail?!SouthamObserver said:
The problem with revolutions is that they almost always fail. Having won in Grimsby, how does a hard right Tory party that dreams of Singapore and the smallest of states retain it?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
How do you arrive at such an ahistoricity?
What are the most famous revolutions? Off the top of my head:
France: succeeded
America: succeeded
England (Civil War and Glorious): both succeeded
Russia: succeeded
Ireland: (eventually succeeded)...
Even the revolutions that do fail often achieve their aims some way down the line/
Venezuala ... failed state
Nicaragua ... revolution failed
Jacobite rebellion failed
The peasants revolt
Cromwell
Hungary 1956
Prague Spring
etc, etc0 -
It would probably be something like this:Gallowgate said:I’d love a Greater London GE VI poll. Could see some serious churn there.
Lab 30%
LD 27%
Con 20%
BRX 12%
Green 10%0 -
I fear you may be right. However, apart from Britain......or more likely England, plus perhaps Wales and for the moment N Ireland..... against the world, what policies does this revolutionary party have?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
0 -
Someone has been at the buckfastStuartDickson said:
Yes, and fifty virgins await you in heaven.Monkeys said:
And if only one side grasps this fact and tries to gain ground....the balance shifts in their favour, which is all it will take to win. The Tory party will be reshaped. We're going to No-Deal.Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
You’re all fanatics. Totally brainwashed. Bin Laden and HItler loved morons like you. You’d be buckling up suicide belts if you thought it would ensure the ecstasy of Brexit.0 -
Meanwhile the party is being ruined. Go figure.kle4 said:
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.0 -
It's still something that I would think can be easily answered by the courts so let the case be broughtBig_G_NorthWales said:
Like the Millar cases they become law and if Boris won then the whole system of parliamentary legislation is in real trouble, as is everybodysurbiton19 said:
If the Supreme Court says he can, what will be the difference between the UK, Russia, North Korea etc.Scott_P said:0 -
Interesting. Perhaps things are too fluid to be able to draw any really firm conclusions. Still on balance though, if I were Dominic Cummings I would be reasonably happy at tonight's polls.Scott_P said:
A large part of the public's interpretation of Boris's week of troubles has clearly not been the same as the media's, or what it was expecting, and the opposition to Brexit is much more split than its support.1 -
We surely live in interesting times.....Black_Rook said:
Labour has been completely taken over by middle class Marxism, and North London is the epicentre of middle class Marxism. The ideologically impure will be purged!WhisperingOracle said:
That's very surprising to me, as I thought grassroots Labour was moving to an even greater Remain position. What's going on there ?beentheredonethat said:
This is very interesting. Will this sort of thing trigger Labour MP desertions to LDs?Gallowgate said:
To lose Starmer would be massive. He has been a driving force against the Momentum invasion.0 -
A strange comment. As a scot that is very much how i would describe the Nats in my part of the world.StuartDickson said:
Yes, and fifty virgins await you in heaven.Monkeys said:
And if only one side grasps this fact and tries to gain ground....the balance shifts in their favour, which is all it will take to win. The Tory party will be reshaped. We're going to No-Deal.Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
You’re all fanatics. Totally brainwashed. Bin Laden and HItler loved morons like you. You’d be buckling up suicide belts if you thought it would ensure the ecstasy of Brexit.0 -
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.TGOHF said:
And the public are sick of Brexit.kle4 said:
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.0 -
Loss of composure evident in this post. Polls rattling you?StuartDickson said:
Yes, and fifty virgins await you in heaven.Monkeys said:
And if only one side grasps this fact and tries to gain ground....the balance shifts in their favour, which is all it will take to win. The Tory party will be reshaped. We're going to No-Deal.Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
You’re all fanatics. Totally brainwashed. Bin Laden and HItler loved morons like you. You’d be buckling up suicide belts if you thought it would ensure the ecstasy of Brexit.0 -
Ruined ? Flakey inept careerists are flouncing out ?Dadge said:
Meanwhile the party is being ruined. Go figure.kle4 said:
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.0 -
It's all going to Dominic Cummings' plan. Total chaos.0
-
And very reminiscent of the US.Gallowgate said:That ‘500,000 Britons hooked on opioids’ story in the Sunday Times is pretty scary.
1 -
Off topic, a plug for the Finger Lakes, which I read somewhere are an under-appreciated destination within the US in terms of visitor numbers. The scenery is attractive (like Lake Windermere but with deciduous trees on the hills), there are gorges and waterfalls and long and short hikes everywhere, tons of state parks, dozens of wineries and breweries with tastings and tours, Ithaca and Watkins Glen aren’t as ugly as many US towns and Ithaca has Cornell University so a youthful and lively place, fishing and boating on the lakes, a huge choice of eating, and various tourist attractions including the renowned Corning Glass Museum.
Just four hours north west of New York, so an easy add on to a holiday in the Big Apple. And for a longer day out Niagara Falls is a just over a couple of hours away.0 -
What the hell do you know about the attitudes to Brexit in old working class areas of England then?basicbridge said:
A strange comment. As a scot that is very much how i would describe the Nats in my part of the world.StuartDickson said:
Yes, and fifty virgins await you in heaven.Monkeys said:
And if only one side grasps this fact and tries to gain ground....the balance shifts in their favour, which is all it will take to win. The Tory party will be reshaped. We're going to No-Deal.Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
You’re all fanatics. Totally brainwashed. Bin Laden and HItler loved morons like you. You’d be buckling up suicide belts if you thought it would ensure the ecstasy of Brexit.0 -
No true Brexiteer would say a thing like that.Philip_Thompson said:0 -
He's a Nat. Im afraid that's just what they do,steve_garner said:
Loss of composure evident in this post. Polls rattling you?StuartDickson said:
Yes, and fifty virgins await you in heaven.Monkeys said:
And if only one side grasps this fact and tries to gain ground....the balance shifts in their favour, which is all it will take to win. The Tory party will be reshaped. We're going to No-Deal.Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
You’re all fanatics. Totally brainwashed. Bin Laden and HItler loved morons like you. You’d be buckling up suicide belts if you thought it would ensure the ecstasy of Brexit.
In our part of Scotland people are very bored with it.0 -
There you have me stumped. My analysis ends at the "it's a revolution" stage.OldKingCole said:
I fear you may be right. However, apart from Britain......or more likely England, plus perhaps Wales and for the moment N Ireland..... against the world, what policies does this revolutionary party have?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.0 -
Con Maj drifting:
Best prices - Next UK GE
NOM 5/7
Con Maj 2/1
Lab Maj 11/1
LD Maj 50/1
Bxp Maj 100/10 -
Did the ST story say if the addicted were leavers or remainers? Or indeed if Brexit has driven them to opioids?WhisperingOracle said:
And very reminiscent of the US.Gallowgate said:That ‘500,000 Britons hooked on opioids’ story in the Sunday Times is pretty scary.
0 -
I think it's more the surrender / retreat from the centre ground to a very right wing position.TGOHF said:
Ruined ? Flakey inept careerists are flouncing out ?Dadge said:
Meanwhile the party is being ruined. Go figure.kle4 said:
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.0 -
Fair comment.Peter_the_Punter said:
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.TGOHF said:
And the public are sick of Brexit.kle4 said:
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.glw said:
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.Peter_the_Punter said:It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
All else flows from that.0 -
This poll is a nonsense sadly.....surbiton19 said:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170442113546256387
WTF ? HYUFD will have a heart attack.
However, in all the polls the most important factor will be to look at the pro and anti Brexit party totals.....because this election will be about one thing...Britain elects put this at 52%/44%: YouGov at 40%/47%....
0 -
It depends why he wins. The Supreme Court would have to have a good reason and logic for the victory, just as it required one for Miller's.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Like the Millar cases they become law and if Boris won then the whole system of parliamentary legislation is in real trouble, as is everybodysurbiton19 said:
If the Supreme Court says he can, what will be the difference between the UK, Russia, North Korea etc.Scott_P said:
If the challenge is based on for example Queen's Consent and Bercow gave a biased and a false instruction in saying it wasn't required then comparable to the doctrine of "fruit of the poisoned tree" the legislation should be invalid.
If the Court rules strictly that Queen's Consent was required and strikes out the law on that basis, then no law will have ever been broken except Bercow giving bad instructions and that will have been put right. If Bercow resigned and was replaced by say Hoyle who then returned to an era of a truly neutral Speaker giving impartial advice that could help repair some of the damage of the last couple of years.1 -
Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.1
-
As “planned” as the sinking of the Titanic.AndyJS said:It's all going to Dominic Cummings' plan. Total chaos.
1 -
Sorry to hear that.ExiledInScotland said:Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.
63 is far too young.0 -
We all are. I give up trying to make sense of thisGallowgate said:So 3% lead current VI poll from ComRes. Pollsters are all over the place.
0 -
Sad to hear and condolonces to you and your motherExiledInScotland said:Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.
0 -
No. All polls show roughly 53:47 or 54:46 Remain:Leave. Labour Leavers have left and Tory Remainers are also leaving.tyson said:
This poll is a nonsense sadly.....surbiton19 said:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170442113546256387
WTF ? HYUFD will have a heart attack.
However, in all the polls the most important factor will be to look at the pro and anti Brexit party totals.....because this election will be about one thing...Britain elects put this at 52%/44%: YouGov at 40%/47%....
0 -
Please accept my condolencesExiledInScotland said:Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.
0 -
I’m very sorry to hear that. My sympathies.ExiledInScotland said:Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.
0 -
You do know how the French Revolution ended up, don’t you?Byronic said:
There you have me stumped. My analysis ends at the "it's a revolution" stage.OldKingCole said:
I fear you may be right. However, apart from Britain......or more likely England, plus perhaps Wales and for the moment N Ireland..... against the world, what policies does this revolutionary party have?Byronic said:
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeksnoisywinter said:
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall orderChris said:So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation:
(1) Quite good for Boris
(2) Very good for Boris or
(3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
The Clown’s head will be under a guillotine in no time.0 -
Why? I have always said Boris must not extend under any circumstances whatsoever and better to go into opposition on a hard Brexit ticket than do so and this poll confirms my viewsurbiton19 said:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170442113546256387
WTF ? HYUFD will have a heart attack.0 -
I’m sorry to hear that, awful news.ExiledInScotland said:Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.
0 -
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven0 -
Ok - so with this and a couple of previous comments, you really are deranged. PB's biggest cock, but not in a good way.Philip_Thompson said:
It depends why he wins. The Supreme Court would have to have a good reason and logic for the victory, just as it required one for Miller's.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Like the Millar cases they become law and if Boris won then the whole system of parliamentary legislation is in real trouble, as is everybodysurbiton19 said:
If the Supreme Court says he can, what will be the difference between the UK, Russia, North Korea etc.Scott_P said:
If the challenge is based on for example Queen's Consent and Bercow gave a biased and a false instruction in saying it wasn't required then comparable to the doctrine of "fruit of the poisoned tree" the legislation should be invalid.
If the Court rules strictly that Queen's Consent was required and strikes out the law on that basis, then no law will have ever been broken except Bercow giving bad instructions and that will have been put right. If Bercow resigned and was replaced by say Hoyle who then returned to an era of a truly neutral Speaker giving impartial advice that could help repair some of the damage of the last couple of years.0 -
That's not a current VI poll, the question is phrased different to normal. Have they done a standard VI poll?Gallowgate said:So 3% lead current VI poll from ComRes. Pollsters are all over the place.
0 -
Honestly, now- anyone betting on these polls and the next UK election is like my annual strategy at the Grand National--I read the names on the horses and bet on the ones that have a certain ring to them....StuartDickson said:Con Maj drifting:
Best prices - Next UK GE
NOM 5/7
Con Maj 2/1
Lab Maj 11/1
LD Maj 50/1
Bxp Maj 100/1
No one has the first fucking clue what's going to happen with all due respect. Maybe Cummings or Hyfud perhaps...0 -
You have to wonder how many MPs there will actually be left in the Parliamentary Conservative Party by the end of next week.
Of course, if they do properly start to disintegrate then they may not be the last party to do so. At the rate things are going you can imagine Labour actually winning an election, and then all their centre Left MPs having to vote for and justify all sorts of madcap policies.
God alone knows where this is all going to end.1
This discussion has been closed.