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The first recommendation is Boris's, and there is plenty of evidence that Corbyn could not command the House (statements from Swinson and Independents). Of course that might change.Pulpstar said:A mind from Merseyside
who has won far more than me betting on politics reckons it has to be Corbyn btw...0 -
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.0 -
There's a bit of a question mark about this "we" business. Nobody alive then is around now. The nature of our state is very different, both in composition and constitution. Very many of the descendants of the British then live in other countries and very many of the population today are descendants of people who were not British then.JosiasJessop said:
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
The continuity linking us to them, linking today's Britain to the Britain of then is faded to the extent that it only exists as a story. It's like pouring a cup of tea into a river and trying to follow where it goes. You can for a while, but in the end it's both everywhere and nowhere.
I feel no shame at the Atlantic slave trade, nor any pride in Britain's efforts to curtail it. Nor should any of you, really.0 -
You cannot make up for a great wrong like that, but action to do what you can is worth more than words even if the scales are never balanced.JosiasJessop said:
I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're wrong to so blithely disregard the point.DougSeal said:"You started that fire, but here's a medal for putting it out"
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Of course it is garbage. That is not the point, simple messages cut through and that is why the next GE will beAnabobazina said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is quite poweful as it is simple to understandScott_P said:https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1169944667061915649
Has anyone got a graphic for falling over a cliff?
It is also utter garbage.
If you think exiting the EU under this rabble will be simple, I have several bridges to sell you.
Conservatives - leave
Lib Dems - remain
Labour - we haven't a clue but we will get a deal, put it to the people, and then campaign against our own deal so we remain2 -
The ERG are in the same bind as Boris - they have made such vociferous statements about "The Deal" that they have no way back.Gallowgate said:
How’s he going to tweak it when he hasn’t made any proposals?Scott_P said:
Also, recall that Boris has a very minority govt at the moment. May had +10 and could not get it through. Boris has -44.0 -
If there’s no GE this year then it’ll be my second biggest political bet winner - ever.Anabobazina said:
Presume this is the very same Nick Palmer ex-MP, of PB? Great tweet/photo.HYUFD said:Our very own Nick Palmer with Jeremy Hunt this morning
https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1169902266230304770?s=20
Fair points very well made by Casino and Sir Norfolk.SirNorfolkPassmore said:
The only day in November it could realistically be is 28th. EU Summit is on 17th/18th October, earliest Parliament would be dissolved is week beginning 21st, and 25 working days takes us to week beginning 25th. Could theoretically not be a Thursday, but why bother when the immediate deadline is gone?Casino_Royale said:November is inexplicably now odds-on.
Alastair explains this better than i can but if Parliament is prorogued until 14th October and then needs to re-convene and vote through an early GE that takes a minimum of 5 weeks then it has a very narrow window to successfully land at the end of November.
It’s really a bet on proroguation being cancelled or curtailed. VoNC shenanigans or even a new bill to terminate the session notwithstanding the FTPA wouldn’t make it any faster.
Yes, I'd bet against November. Particularly given he might try to tart up May's deal a bit at the summit, and have a last ditch attempt to make 31st, "do or die".
Regarding December, are we really going to have an election in the thick dark, possibly rain, sleet and snow of winter?? Somehow, I can't see it. There are only two possible dates in any case – 4 and 11 Dec – on 18 Dec the schools break up and many people will be travelling/away.
So perhaps Casino's 2020 play is the right one?
You can currently lay GE2019 at 1.16 on Betfair, which seems as obvious as lays get.0 -
I guess so... well actually at the first opportunity that you can do so without risking him finding a way to do the thing you least want him to doPulpstar said:
Well the opposition has repeatedly said it doesn't trust Johnson. Surely if you don't trust him you'll try and remove him at the first opportunity ?rawzer said:only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
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An interesting what if scenario had Cox either had a different legal opinion last time or been willing to ignore his legal view under political pressure.SirNorfolkPassmore said:
Get fellow leaders to change a few meaningless words or give some sort of waffly "best endeavours" statement as a fig-leaf.Gallowgate said:
How’s he going to tweak it when he hasn’t made any proposals?Scott_P said:
Fuel Cummings up with cheap plonk and set him loose on Geoffrey Cox until he decides that his advice is that Johnson's fig-leaf changes everything.
Barring that, change the font.0 -
An obscure MP by the 1620s.Byronic said:
Fair dos. But he was ‘obscure’algarkirk said:
However little can be said for Cromwell 'Yokel' is not the right term for graduates of Sidney Sussex and sons of gentlemen.Byronic said:PrinceofTaranto said:
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.GIN1138 said:
Parliament/Westminster is playing a very, very dangerous game and I'm unsure what is is they think they are going to achieve - if they think the electorate will blame Boris for their game playing they are deluded (but then Remainers never have understood Leavers and have never made any attempt to do so - that's been half the problem)Big_G_NorthWales said:I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
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The WA can only come back post election if Johnson gets a big enough majority to surpass the Spartans...kle4 said:
Thats what MV3 was attempting to do. It didnt work. Some labour mps are promising that this time theyd back it but thats not enough. Some of the expelled Tories backed it but might not again.Scott_P said:
I think it's too big a risk for Boris. Theoretically since he promised brexit do or die that must include being willing to try the WA again, if tweaked. But theres no guarantee it passes and then hes ripped to shreds by Farage and the Spartans. And even if he gets it through BXP surge to some extent, then labour agree to take him down and hes out of office.
No chance he can back it before.0 -
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
Two wasn't it? Brecon was vacant.Beibheirli_C said:
When he became PM, he had a working majority of 1isam said:
No he didnt!Scott_P said:
BoZo had one.Philip_Thompson said:Yes it would indeed. A majority Tory government could resolve this quite simply.
He torched it.
He fired a lot MPs
He now has a "majority" of -44
Spin it any way you like....0 -
There is no Brexit until after a GE - May never had a Brexit or a deal majority. Neither did or does Boris.Beibheirli_C said:
The ERG are in the same bind as Boris - they have made such vociferous statements about "The Deal" that they have no way back.Gallowgate said:
How’s he going to tweak it when he hasn’t made any proposals?Scott_P said:
Also, recall that Boris has a very minority govt at the moment. May had +10 and could not get it through. Boris has -44.0 -
Can a British government move a motion of no confidence in itself?
If so I suspect that might be what gets tabled on Monday. Play the 14 day game. Might get Corbyn in Number 10 for a brief period but he would be the one extending. If not, Boris gets his election.0 -
21%. Will of the people.HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
True, but the tory government is dependent on not getting a backlash from BXP. So do we think the polling is not going to be borne out? Some are very confident of that, I'm not, what about you?algarkirk said:
Voters don't tell until they tell John Curtice on the dayCasino_Royale said:
Well, someone needs to tell the electorate then because the opinion polls show a spike in BXP support and fall for the Tories if Brexit is delayed again post 31st October.Philip_Thompson said:
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.Casino_Royale said:
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.0 -
Am I misreading that or are you misrepresenting it? So that's a 21% no deal vs 50% remain-y type situation/softer brexit?HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
Yet that option would likely win if we had a series of votes, eliminating the most-hated at each round. First to go would be No Deal, then Revoke. Etc.HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50Nigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
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If your primary aim is to vote to stop No Deal, then Labour's speific policy makes little difference. And a lot of people will vote to stop No Deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course it is garbage. That is not the point, simple messages cut through and that is why the next GE will beAnabobazina said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is quite poweful as it is simple to understandScott_P said:https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1169944667061915649
Has anyone got a graphic for falling over a cliff?
It is also utter garbage.
If you think exiting the EU under this rabble will be simple, I have several bridges to sell you.
Conservatives - leave
Lib Dems - remain
Labour - we haven't a clue but we will get a deal, put it to the people, and then campaign against our own deal so we remain
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Some are still pretending it's not about stopping Brexit entirely. The labour position is dependent on brexit being a possible goal.Ishmael_Z said:
Why "the mask slips" - was anyone pretending different?Philip_Thompson said:Just heard a quote on 5 Live news headline one of the 'rebel alliance' (didn't hear who, female) saying they have a chance to "bring down Boris and bring down Brexit".
The mask slips. We can all see and hear what is going on. This next election is a referendum by proxy - if you want Brexit vote Boris's Conservatives. If you don't vote Lib Dem/Labour/SNP/Plaid/Greens/Independents.
Dom and Dommer are clearly gearing up to re-fight the referendum, hence the lets give £1bn a month which goes to Brussels, to the police, and the risible police-themed speech of yesterday.0 -
TM and the EU agreed a deal. The fact that wasn't the end of the matter is possibly the biggest mistake in British political history.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:0 -
No only 29% for Remain or EUref2TOPPING said:
Am I misreading that or are you misrepresenting it? So that's a 21% no deal vs 50% remain-y type situation/softer brexit?HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
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Assuming he really wants a deal.Pulpstar said:
The WA can only come back post election if Johnson gets a big enough majority to surpass the Spartans...kle4 said:
Thats what MV3 was attempting to do. It didnt work. Some labour mps are promising that this time theyd back it but thats not enough. Some of the expelled Tories backed it but might not again.Scott_P said:
I think it's too big a risk for Boris. Theoretically since he promised brexit do or die that must include being willing to try the WA again, if tweaked. But theres no guarantee it passes and then hes ripped to shreds by Farage and the Spartans. And even if he gets it through BXP surge to some extent, then labour agree to take him down and hes out of office.
No chance he can back it before.0 -
If the “best” lunch available is a shit sandwich then you skip it altogether.algarkirk said:
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support therly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlainlection with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
A deal rejected 3 times.0 -
Not about a lack of trust in Boris, all about electoral advantage. T'was ever thus.rawzer said:
I guess so... well actually at the first opportunity that you can do so without risking him finding a way to do the thing you least want him to doPulpstar said:
Well the opposition has repeatedly said it doesn't trust Johnson. Surely if you don't trust him you'll try and remove him at the first opportunity ?rawzer said:only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
0 -
Maybe. It was a few dozen more than he has now...SirNorfolkPassmore said:
Two wasn't it? Brecon was vacant.Beibheirli_C said:
When he became PM, he had a working majority of 1isam said:
No he didnt!Scott_P said:
BoZo had one.Philip_Thompson said:Yes it would indeed. A majority Tory government could resolve this quite simply.
He torched it.
He fired a lot MPs
He now has a "majority" of -44
Spin it any way you like....0 -
In a decade after we have reduced EU migration EEA might be OK but at the moment it would only win as the least hated option not as the most popular and even that is arguable as 52% back Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop with SurvationByronic said:
Yet that option would likely win if we had a series of votes, eliminating the most-hated at each round. First to go would be No Deal, then Revoke. Etc.HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50Nigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he is idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to ers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
We are past that now, sadly. I think we need to experience No Deal before any semblence of sanity can return. The electorate needs to be confronted with reality.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
0 -
Precious few politicians care now.GIN1138 said:
While our politicians are refusing to allow the 2016 referendum to be implemented and refusing to allow an election that could resolve the impasse nothing will change.Byronic said:
Agreed. The nation is endangered. Enough, now.Jonathan said:
The truth is that politics has polarised further this week. Each side of this conflict (it is no longer a debate) can point to real problems with the other position.Byronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
There is no clear right or wrong, good or bad here any more. We need to accept that.
In fact it will get even worse from here.
Both sides are being utterly ruthless in pursuing absolute victory, and then responding with ruthlessness in kind.1 -
Or perhaps in Northern Irish political history?isam said:
TM and the EU agreed a deal. The fact that wasn't the end of the matter is possibly the biggest mistake in British political history.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:0 -
Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that0
-
I think entering the First World War and killing a million of our best young men was a slightly graver mistake than rejecting Theresa May’s Brexit deal.isam said:
TM and the EU agreed a deal. The fact that wasn't the end of the matter is possibly the biggest mistake in British political history.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
0 -
Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.HYUFD said:
as 52% back Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop with SurvationByronic said:
Yet that option would likely win if we had a series of votes, eliminating the most-hated at each round. First to go would be No Deal, then Revoke. Etc.HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50Nigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he is idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to ers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
That's true, nor did they envisage a republic. You kind of have to take the crazy options once you take certain actions.Byronic said:
True enough. But I’ve read a lot of Civil War history. No one but the crazies envisaged killing the King, not when the agitations in parliament began. But then things became more polarised...Theuniondivvie said:
Not sure they'd have been that amazed tbh. Less than a hundred years previously they'd had a king who'd beheaded two of his queens and executed advisors, nobles & prelates, a usurper queen beheaded, a queen who beheaded the grandmother of their current king, a serious attempt at regicide & the destruction of parliament and a steady flow of burnings and disembowellings of sundry individuals for praying a bit differently to whatever was the current mode.Byronic said:PrinceofTaranto said:
This is s which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.GIN1138 said:
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop iless.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
Good times.0 -
If MPs would support that why did they reject it in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.
0 -
I used to be Prime Minister you know.Theuniondivvie said:2 -
Corbyn remains PM for the election period...during which he could do an awful lot,nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
0 -
The Tories cannot back that now either. It would destroy them. They have to deliver No Deal. They have no other option.algarkirk said:
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the wo know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.0 -
Alliance victory on those numbers.HYUFD said:
Though even then ICM still has Labour only tied with the Tories on 28% each and the Brexit Party on 18%.Casino_Royale said:
Well, someone needs to tell the electorate then because the opinion polls show a spike in BXP support and fall for the Tories if Brexit is delayed again post 31st October.Philip_Thompson said:
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.Casino_Royale said:
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.0 -
But a majority for no no deal according to your figures.HYUFD said:
No only 29% for Remain or EUref2TOPPING said:
Am I misreading that or are you misrepresenting it? So that's a 21% no deal vs 50% remain-y type situation/softer brexit?HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had this idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and BigNigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
Because the government was whipped for god sake.Philip_Thompson said:
If MPs would support that why did they reject it in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.
0 -
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
1 -
But that misses the economic hit ... it should be more like: then sold the house and car and gave all the money to the local hospice. And economic hits brings us back to Brexit.Ishmael_Z said:
Understates the asymmetry. You mugged, raped, robbed and murdered several old ladies, but then gave 50p to a Big Issue seller on the way home.DougSeal said:
"You started that fire, but here's a medal for putting it out"0 -
And he doesnt get a majority if BXP think theres any chance he will bring it back in any form. Snookered.Pulpstar said:
The WA can only come back post election if Johnson gets a big enough majority to surpass the Spartans...kle4 said:
Thats what MV3 was attempting to do. It didnt work. Some labour mps are promising that this time theyd back it but thats not enough. Some of the expelled Tories backed it but might not again.Scott_P said:
I think it's too big a risk for Boris. Theoretically since he promised brexit do or die that must include being willing to try the WA again, if tweaked. But theres no guarantee it passes and then hes ripped to shreds by Farage and the Spartans. And even if he gets it through BXP surge to some extent, then labour agree to take him down and hes out of office.
No chance he can back it before.0 -
The government did not support EEA/EFTA, as far as I remember.Philip_Thompson said:
If MPs would support that why did they reject it in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.
0 -
Haven't we had enough of stupid questions giving stupid answers?Gallowgate said:
Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.HYUFD said:
as 52% back Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop with SurvationByronic said:
Yet that option would likely win if we had a series of votes, eliminating the most-hated at each round. First to go would be No Deal, then Revoke. Etc.HYUFD said:
Yougov yesterday had 21% with No Deal as first choice, 19% for Boris' renegotiated Withdrawal Agreement and 19% for Revoke and Remain but only 12% for Single Market and Customs UnionSouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50Nigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he is idiot done for his country I would like to know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? ow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to ers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
That anger is justified.
We. Need. Polls.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/05/what-do-public-think-can-still-realistically-happe0 -
Everything would work up tp 2/3 majority for a general election.nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
Once in power he'd take root there... Certainly through the Winter and possibly beyond.0 -
Idiocy. I'm still stunned nothing hot supported. Yes yes, payroll vote, but I think even the architects of the indicative votes were surprised.Philip_Thompson said:
If MPs would support that why did they reject it in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.
0 -
If enough go, there might be difficulty for the Tories to get candidates to stand.TOPPING said:
This could be HYUFD's big chance. Dunny-on-the-Wold might need a pure Tory....
Step forward HY 0 -
Conservative and Labour leaders are still yet to work out that brokering a Deal on Brexit is in both their interests in order for normal business to resume.
Instead, they seem happy to exhaust each other in a fight to the death over it, whilst insurgents nibble ever harder at their flanks.0 -
Yet being associated with Farage risks further tainting the Tories (although the damage from this diminishes as Bozo taints them himself), as Martin briefly recognises in his article. It’s a double edged sword that risks driving away what Remain support the Conservatives still have.Scott_P said:0 -
Convention dictates not taking major decisions in those circumstances. Most parliamentarians would abide by that, and I'm convinced Corbyn is one of them.Slackbladder said:
Corbyn remains PM for the election period...during which he could do an awful lot,nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
I can think of someone else who probably wouldn't.0 -
Moderators: I didn't write the "tough ask" post that was posted earlier by someone using my name. I never use that phrase. Someone must be trying to impersonate me. (Not sure why they'd want to).0
-
I got almost indignant on your behalf when someone conflated you with hyufd yesterday, but this point is borderline hyufd. Realistically: you are starving hungry, you have turned down three offers of a stale spam and branston pickle bap in the hope of something better. Something better turns out to be a shit sandwich. Spam baps suddenly look a great deal more attractive than they did.TGOHF said:
If the “best” lunch available is a shit sandwich then you skip it altogether.
A deal rejected 3 times.0 -
-
Are the electorate really the problem here?SouthamObserver said:
We are past that now, sadly. I think we need to experience No Deal before any semblence of sanity can return. The electorate needs to be confronted with reality.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the sameNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.0 -
Gambling with the country’s future is shameful.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
0 -
He didn't have a working majority of 1 as those MPs wouldn't back him.Beibheirli_C said:
When he became PM, he had a working majority of 1isam said:
No he didnt!Scott_P said:
BoZo had one.Philip_Thompson said:Yes it would indeed. A majority Tory government could resolve this quite simply.
He torched it.
He fired a lot MPs
He now has a "majority" of -44
Spin it any way you like....
Pretending they were on his side didn't make it so.0 -
And an amazing 87% back free sex, the moon on a stick, and pet unicorns for all, so let's go for that option.HYUFD said:
In a decade after we have reduced EU migration EEA might be OK but at the moment it would only win as the least hated option not as the most popular and even that is arguable as 52% back Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop with Survation0 -
SouthamObserver said:
The Tories cannot back that now either. It would destroy them. They have to deliver No Deal. They have no other option.algarkirk said:
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
meNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the wo know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You aring to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
It won’t be no deal. Boris would have to get a big majority and if he gets that he will have the time and power to do something else, avoiding No Deal.
0 -
Should have thought of that before the referendum.Gallowgate said:
Gambling with the country’s future is shameful.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
0 -
VONC is easily done.GIN1138 said:
Everything would work up tp 2/3 majority for a general election.nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
Once in power he'd take root there... Certainly through the Winter and possibly beyond.0 -
Shameful.Philip_Thompson said:
Should have thought of that before the referendum.Gallowgate said:
Gambling with the country’s future is shameful.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
0 -
Is Laura having a sly fag in that photo?slade said:
I used to be Prime Minister you know.Theuniondivvie said:
0 -
No somebody just broke the quote order.AndyJS said:Moderators: I didn't write the "tough ask" post that was posted earlier by someone using my name. I never use that phrase. Someone must be trying to impersonate me. (Not sure why they'd want to).
0 -
-
My impression (who knows ofc) is that the EU is intensely relaxed about no deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
Especially as they have issued us with a set of non-negotiable terms entirely at their own discretion under which no deal will operate.0 -
The nature of the MPs the Tories have post-election is going to be very different. They will be far more right-wing and far less willig to compromise on Brexit. There are 21 deselected MPs to replace and a number of other moderates who have annouced their retirements on top. You can pretty much take it for granted that those who replace them will be ERG/BXP, so there is no way they are going to vote for anything that looks like May's Deal.0
-
You think? When his cohort of MPs will all be far right nutjobsbByronic said:SouthamObserver said:
The Tories cannot back that now either. It would destroy them. They have to deliver No Deal. They have no other option.algarkirk said:
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
meNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the wo know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You aring to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
It won’t be no deal. Boris would have to get a big majority and if he gets that he will have the time and power to do something else, avoiding No Deal.0 -
Flanner said:dyedwoolie said:
But the LibDems polled over three times what the (real) Tories managed in Westminster at the Euros. And that was before Fields' thuggishness at the Guildhall, and before he switched from sanity to Johnsonism.AndyJS said:tough ask for the libs to go from 11 to 45% or so
Those voting with the Spiv will have to explain their treachery to their voters. In Field's case, he'll also have to explain his manifestly deranged political judgement.
This one.0 -
Of whom?Gallowgate said:
Shameful.Philip_Thompson said:
Should have thought of that before the referendum.Gallowgate said:
Gambling with the country’s future is shameful.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
Any time we change anything or have an election we gamble with the countries future.0 -
When you look at what’s coming out of the Brexit Party I’m starting to wonder if:
a) Farage has discovered that the other members care more about Brexit than their political careers; and
b) Farage has no desire to fail to win a seat for the 8th (?) time.
Because they do rather seem to be rowing in behind Boris. There’s a way to run a Brexit Party campaign which is more about damaging Labour.0 -
We'll see.TOPPING said:
My impression (who knows ofc) is that the EU is intensely relaxed about no deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
Especially as they have issued us with a set of non-negotiable terms entirely at their own discretion under which no deal will operate.
MRDA.0 -
I agree. However Philip Thompson was suggesting that we have a great system that stopped the Atlantic slave trade while ignoring the fact it started it as wellNoo said:
There's a bit of a question mark about this "we" business. Nobody alive then is around now. The nature of our state is very different, both in composition and constitution. Very many of the descendants of the British then live in other countries and very many of the population today are descendants of people who were not British then.JosiasJessop said:
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
The continuity linking us to them, linking today's Britain to the Britain of then is faded to the extent that it only exists as a story. It's like pouring a cup of tea into a river and trying to follow where it goes. You can for a while, but in the end it's both everywhere and nowhere.
I feel no shame at the Atlantic slave trade, nor any pride in Britain's efforts to curtail it. Nor should any of you, really.0 -
Turning to Farage is like turning to the bottle to solve your problems.IanB2 said:
Yet being associated with Farage risks further tainting the Tories (although the damage from this diminishes as Bozo taints them himself), as Martin briefly recognises in his article. It’s a double edged sword that risks driving away what Remain support the Conservatives still have.Scott_P said:0 -
Agreed. Everything is pinned on that, only absolute victories allowed as others have said. They might well end up dominating polling but unable to deliver the no deal that is swelling their numbers.SouthamObserver said:
The Tories cannot back that now either. It would destroy them. They have to deliver No Deal. They have no other option.algarkirk said:
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal t would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is , and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they eNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the wo know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
For what it's worth I know at least 1 former remainer who would reluctantly back no deal over Corbyn, but the country as a whole?0 -
He is going to be leading a far more uncompromising set of Tory MPs than those that were elected in 2017. The ERG will have 30-40 new members at a minimum. He will essentially be leading the Brexit party post-election.Byronic said:SouthamObserver said:
The Tories cannot back that now either. It would destroy them. They have to deliver No Deal. They have no other option.algarkirk said:
Agree. But TMs deal is the best available right now, and leaves various doors open.Byronic said:
It’s insane that no party in parliament - none of them - support the outcome you suggest, which is clearly the most sensible, and likely to enjoy the widest public support, and which saves our democracy and our economy. They’ve all gone mad on all sides.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.isam said:
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted againstSouthamObserver said:
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.HYUFD said:
meNigel_Foremain said:
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the wo know?Nigel_Foremain said:
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PMByronic said:Nigel_Foremain said:
You aring to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.HYUFD said:
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)KentRising said:
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.Scott_P said:
We. Need. Polls.
It won’t be no deal. Boris would have to get a big majority and if he gets that he will have the time and power to do something else, avoiding No Deal.
0 -
I think Farage knows if he tries to square up against Boris he'll just look silly and it could destroy his reputation.ab195 said:When you look at what’s coming out of the Brexit Party I’m starting to wonder if:
a) Farage has discovered that the other members care more about Brexit than their political careers; and
b) Farage has no desire to fail to win a seat for the 8th (?) time.
Because they do rather seem to be rowing in behind Boris. There’s a way to run a Brexit Party campaign which is more about damaging Labour.
The enemies of Brexit are clear. Its not Boris.0 -
We don't go the the polls in November, December, January or February. It just won't happen.Noo said:
VONC is easily done.GIN1138 said:
Everything would work up tp 2/3 majority for a general election.nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
Once in power he'd take root there... Certainly through the Winter and possibly beyond.
If Jezza is in power on 1st November he'll still be there on 1st April.
By that time who knows how the political siuation will look...0 -
And without wishing to drift the thread with too much history, it is quite possible to (mostly) argue the whole thing in terms of competitive economic self-interests, rather than morality, anyway.Noo said:
There's a bit of a question mark about this "we" business. Nobody alive then is around now. The nature of our state is very different, both in composition and constitution. Very many of the descendants of the British then live in other countries and very many of the population today are descendants of people who were not British then.JosiasJessop said:
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
The continuity linking us to them, linking today's Britain to the Britain of then is faded to the extent that it only exists as a story. It's like pouring a cup of tea into a river and trying to follow where it goes. You can for a while, but in the end it's both everywhere and nowhere.
I feel no shame at the Atlantic slave trade, nor any pride in Britain's efforts to curtail it. Nor should any of you, really.0 -
Tories don't need to turn to Farage, they need to run a Vote Leave Mk.II campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Turning to Farage is like turning to the bottle to solve your problems.IanB2 said:
Yet being associated with Farage risks further tainting the Tories (although the damage from this diminishes as Bozo taints them himself), as Martin briefly recognises in his article. It’s a double edged sword that risks driving away what Remain support the Conservatives still have.Scott_P said:
Let Vote Leave/Tories win the election, let Leave.EU/BXP attract anyone who viscerally hates the Tories so they don't go to Labour.0 -
We really didn’t start the Atlantic slave trade. The Portuguese did. Go to Lagos on the Algarve, and visit the slave market there. Which still stands. Harrowing and educationalDougSeal said:
I agree. However Philip Thompson was suggesting that we have a great system that stopped the Atlantic slave trade while ignoring the fact it started it as wellNoo said:
There's a bit of a question mark about this "we" business. Nobody alive then is around now. The nature of our state is very different, both in composition and constitution. Very many of the descendants of the British then live in other countries and very many of the population today are descendants of people who were not British then.JosiasJessop said:
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
The continuity linking us to them, linking today's Britain to the Britain of then is faded to the extent that it only exists as a story. It's like pouring a cup of tea into a river and trying to follow where it goes. You can for a while, but in the end it's both everywhere and nowhere.
I feel no shame at the Atlantic slave trade, nor any pride in Britain's efforts to curtail it. Nor should any of you, really.0 -
Well the proposals exist and the EU doesn't seem like the the kind of groovy, flexible, let's all hug kind of institution that would scare up another 400 page document over the next seven weeks.Philip_Thompson said:
We'll see.TOPPING said:
My impression (who knows ofc) is that the EU is intensely relaxed about no deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
Especially as they have issued us with a set of non-negotiable terms entirely at their own discretion under which no deal will operate.
MRDA.0 -
Nothing in itself, though without the support (or at least acquiescence) of virtually everyone else, he might be VONC'd before he gets to St Pancras*nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
I suppose a smart bunch of smaller parties might be "a bit busy with committee work" until he got home again, delaying them getting round to a VONC. That would help Jo Swinson avoid no deal without breaking her "not supporting PM Corbyn" stance.
*I'm assuming Jez will take the train? Apart from being greener, it's probably safer than asking the UK armed forces to fly him ("Yes sir.. if you want a coffee.. just press that button marked 'Ejector Seat'. We had it repurposed")0 -
We did not start the slave trade.DougSeal said:
I agree. However Philip Thompson was suggesting that we have a great system that stopped the Atlantic slave trade while ignoring the fact it started it as wellNoo said:
There's a bit of a question mark about this "we" business. Nobody alive then is around now. The nature of our state is very different, both in composition and constitution. Very many of the descendants of the British then live in other countries and very many of the population today are descendants of people who were not British then.JosiasJessop said:
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
The continuity linking us to them, linking today's Britain to the Britain of then is faded to the extent that it only exists as a story. It's like pouring a cup of tea into a river and trying to follow where it goes. You can for a while, but in the end it's both everywhere and nowhere.
I feel no shame at the Atlantic slave trade, nor any pride in Britain's efforts to curtail it. Nor should any of you, really.0 -
A) would be a fascinating development. What do they do if their new party says we dont trust boris so were standing, but some candidates are really worried that might stop Brexit? How many like that can bring farage to heel?ab195 said:When you look at what’s coming out of the Brexit Party I’m starting to wonder if:
a) Farage has discovered that the other members care more about Brexit than their political careers; and
b) Farage has no desire to fail to win a seat for the 8th (?) time.
Because they do rather seem to be rowing in behind Boris. There’s a way to run a Brexit Party campaign which is more about damaging Labour.0 -
Yes and all the new Cons MPs replacing the sacked ones will be hardline also. Else why bother applying to the Conservative party.SouthamObserver said:He is going to be leading a far more uncompromising set of Tory MPs than those that were elected in 2017. The ERG will have 30-40 new members at a minimum. He will essentially be leading the Brexit party post-election.
0 -
Yes they do. They are precisely the kind of institution that will fudge anything to get across the line when they have no other choice.TOPPING said:
Well the proposals exist and the EU doesn't seem like the the kind of groovy, flexible, let's all hug kind of institution that would scare up another 400 page document over the next seven weeks.Philip_Thompson said:
We'll see.TOPPING said:
My impression (who knows ofc) is that the EU is intensely relaxed about no deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not until we give the EU the forced choice between that, or no deal and no backstop.Gallowgate said:Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop does not exist for god sake.
Especially as they have issued us with a set of non-negotiable terms entirely at their own discretion under which no deal will operate.
MRDA.0 -
Virtually all Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with a technical solution for the Irish border rather than the backstop ie the Brady amendment so if Boris gets a Tory majority he can pass that if he agrees it with the EU.SouthamObserver said:The nature of the MPs the Tories have post-election is going to be very different. They will be far more right-wing and far less willig to compromise on Brexit. There are 21 deselected MPs to replace and a number of other moderates who have annouced their retirements on top. You can pretty much take it for granted that those who replace them will be ERG/BXP, so there is no way they are going to vote for anything that looks like May's Deal.
0 -
Only if he has the confidence of parliament. Which, if he does, is legitimate. If not, the LOTO (presumably the Conservative leader?) VONCs him and a new government or election follows.GIN1138 said:
We don't go the the polls in November, December, January or February. It just won't happen.Noo said:
VONC is easily done.GIN1138 said:
Everything would work up tp 2/3 majority for a general election.nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
Once in power he'd take root there... Certainly through the Winter and possibly beyond.
If Jezza is in power on 1st Novedmber he'll still be there on 1st April.
By that time who knows how the political siuation will look...
What other outcome could there possibly be?0 -
-
Then VONC yes?GIN1138 said:
Everything would work up tp 2/3 majority for a general election.nichomar said:Simple question Johnson resigns Queen invites corbyn to for government as PM no need to have support from anyone else. Goes to Brussels requests extension comes back and seeks 2/3 majority for GE. what is wrong with that
Once in power he'd take root there... Certainly through the Winter and possibly beyond.0 -
Letting facts enter the discussion. @DougSeal won't like that!Byronic said:
We really didn’t start the Atlantic slave trade. The Portuguese did. Go to Lagos on the Algarve, and visit the slave market there. Which still stands. Harrowing and educationalDougSeal said:
I agree. However Philip Thompson was suggesting that we have a great system that stopped the Atlantic slave trade while ignoring the fact it started it as wellNoo said:
There's a bit of a question mark about this "we" business. Nobody alive then is around now. The nature of our state is very different, both in composition and constitution. Very many of the descendants of the British then live in other countries and very many of the population today are descendants of people who were not British then.JosiasJessop said:
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
The continuity linking us to them, linking today's Britain to the Britain of then is faded to the extent that it only exists as a story. It's like pouring a cup of tea into a river and trying to follow where it goes. You can for a while, but in the end it's both everywhere and nowhere.
I feel no shame at the Atlantic slave trade, nor any pride in Britain's efforts to curtail it. Nor should any of you, really.0
This discussion has been closed.