Just heard a quote on 5 Live news headline one of the 'rebel alliance' (didn't hear who, female) saying they have a chance to "bring down Boris and bring down Brexit".
The mask slips. We can all see and hear what is going on. This next election is a referendum by proxy - if you want Brexit vote Boris's Conservatives. If you don't vote Lib Dem/Labour/SNP/Plaid/Greens/Independents.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.
They have swollowed their own spin that Leavers are all thick and stupid and can be played by them... It will blow up up in theior faces spectacularly.
Exactly, they're treating us and the public as a whole as idiots. We're not idiots.
Mr DougSeal, HYUFD is a pathetic little pipsqueak who is not fit to lick the boots of many of the people he is insulting. They are not traitors to anything . People who disagree with a course of action are not obliged to fall in behind any foolhardy position that a small majority believes in. What if 52% wanted a return to slavery, or some such other savagery? The minority would have every right to try and demonstrate it was wrong. Difficult to remonstrate with someone who blindly follows Boris Johnson with the devotion of a particularly stupid puppydog I guess!
I know. He is the classic university Conservative Association chairman. Which is why I don't let him get on my nerves if I can help it. We had a debate about the tyranny of the majority with Philip Thompson on here last night and I agree with your point entirely. My view of Brexit has always been let them try. They've tried. Look where we are.
Boris resigns as PM, as an MP and also resigns from the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party and Parliament is in turmoil. Boris then joins the Brexit Party and takes Cummings with him, to fight the next GE alongside Farage.
Impossible? You couldn't make it up?
Cummings could make it up and it might just work!
No chance. The Tory brand, whilst not as powerful in my opinion as the Labour one has way too much latent support for that to happen. Also Farage is God Emperor of that particular cabal.
Like Trump best to fight the insurgent cause whilst wearing the colours of one of the big parties.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
It’s not entirely clear - in that bit - what happens if Boris refuses to ask for an extension. It does clearly say the EU can then offer an extension of their devising, and either Boris can accept, or he can delegate it to parliament (who will accept )
So, again, I think I’m right.
No, because the wording is "If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 ..."
Perhaps it would indeed have been better to say "decides to offer," but evidently the bill wasn't drafted to accommodate a prime ministerial refusal to comply with statute law.
Ah, you’re just a bit dim. Got it. The word ‘agree’ simply means agree within the European Council, where we have no say or veto.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
Hence why Boris' strategy is the _only_ strategy that can work to prevent that by consolidating the right. I don't understand Conservatives (especially Leave-voting Conservatives) who don't recognize that this is the devil's bargain that we were committed to the moment Leave won. I voted Remain because I knew a Leave victory would drag the party into some dark and uncomfortable places if it wished to survive in the new reality, but now that we're here, we have to either embrace it, or face scoring ~25% to Labour's ~35% at the next GE.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
The truth is that politics has polarised further this week. Each side of this conflict (it is no longer a debate) can point to real problems with the other position.
There is no clear right or wrong, good or bad here any more. We need to accept that.
Agreed. The nation is endangered. Enough, now.
Parliament is acting like a lawyer defending a paedophile or a terrorist who is guilty, but looks like getting off on a technicality, Boris is saying he should be hanged, and the progressives are more angry at him than the lawyer.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
The two calendar days is a huge potential logistical problem as I have said before. No sensible lawyer would have agreed it in a commercial agreement. It is way too short and is symptomatic of the whole cavalier and undemocratic way this ridiculous bill has been pushed through.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
chill out. Far worse stuff said on this forum than traitor.
I agree. He called me "anti-British" and nearly went off on one before I remembered I had described one poster here as looking like a stuffed toy after an ancounter with the customs officers looking for drugs. Motes and beams and all that - so I bit my tongue
He even accused me of being a lib dem and keeps repeating it, bless him
Yes, really very sad. While I don't approve of violence, I might imagine that it could be amusing to see him accuse a couple of the ex Army lads I know of being "traitors" for supporting remain.
I am really not sure refusing the election is smart politics. We now have a floundering parliament with a zombie government, whose feet are being held to the fire. Sure it’s all very entertaining watching Boris squirm but will the public see it as being in any way productive?
My anecdote today sits alongside other conversations and the general feeling that is out there of outrage. You would never normally hear politics spoken so much in public areas like Asda or the High Street.
I am beginning to feel it is a mistake of enormous proportions and labour in particular are going to pay a big price. Mind you if that results in the end of Corbyn as leader that would be a bonus
Personally I'm seeing a Labour minority Government as being very much on the cards after an election, but if you turn out to be correct and that minority is very small then that can only be a good thing. If we really are going to have PM Corbyn inflicted upon us then the greater the curtailing influence of his coalition (or, more likely, confidence-and-supply) partners, the better.
Mr DougSeal, HYUFD is a pathetic little pipsqueak who is not fit to lick the boots of many of the people he is insulting. They are not traitors to anything . People who disagree with a course of action are not obliged to fall in behind any foolhardy position that a small majority believes in. What if 52% wanted a return to slavery, or some such other savagery? The minority would have every right to try and demonstrate it was wrong. Difficult to remonstrate with someone who blindly follows Boris Johnson with the devotion of a particularly stupid puppydog I guess!
I know. He is the classic university Conservative Association chairman. Which is why I don't let him get on my nerves if I can help it. We had a debate about the tyranny of the majority with Philip Thompson on here last night and I agree with your point entirely. My view of Brexit has always been let them try. They've tried. Look where we are.
I didn't get involved in the tyranny of the majority debate.
On the savagery question I will point out that our system led to the abolition of slavery. We were a leading proponent of abolishing slavery, before others. We have led the way time after time on improving human rights.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
The truth is that politics has polarised further this week. Each side of this conflict (it is no longer a debate) can point to real problems with the other position.
There is no clear right or wrong, good or bad here any more. We need to accept that.
Agreed. The nation is endangered. Enough, now.
Parliament is acting like a lawyer defending a paedophile or a terrorist who is guilty, but looks like getting off on a technicality, Boris is saying he should be hanged, and the progressives are more angry at him than the lawyer.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the same
You called me a traitor to my country or, more precisely, "anti-British" which is essentially the same thing.
As you refused to condemn an image of the burning of the Union Jack
You're confusing me with someone else. I did, and do, so comdemn - for all sorts of reasons not all of which you would agree with. You called me anti-British when we were talking about the origins of the troubles in NI. Nothing to do with flag burning. Even if it had been I can assure you I have done more for my country than you. We will leave it there.
Through Cummins master strategising we now have Corbyn the leader of the largest party of a sizeable anti-govt block (and so majority) in the House of Commons. It would be madness of Corbyn to throw away this position in an immediate election- go for a VONC and install an anti-no deal coalition Govt now. It can stay in power for nearly 3 years if required in the national interest.
Corbyn does not have to lead it....merely by acting sensibly in a coalition he can detoxify himself from the worst excesses of Tory scaremongering.....
It is a set of circumstances that he cannot afford to waste...go Jezza
Three years? With the SNP triumphantly front and centre I think that coalition will have issues in three months. At some point there must be an election, and when you think about it, it might not be the worst thing for leave if it’s the insurgent case coming off the back of an SNP backed government struck by the recession early next year.
There have been stranger coalitions in Europe....a national unity Govt led by Ken Clarke with the likes of Jo Swinson, Rory Stewart, John McDonnell and Ian Blandford sitting in the cabinet to get us through the Brexit impasse is now within the gift of Jeremy Corbyn.
It would have the added benefit of detoxifying him.....
Rory Stewart, ex SIS, is going to serve in a cabinet under
Boris Johnson stood for the Tory party leadership in a bid "to get Brexit done." He doesn't want an election, the public don't want an election and now it's clear the opposition doesn't want an election.
Let's see how this piece of sh*t proceeds. Has the retarded moron Cummings war-gamed this? Watching the lying disingenuous fat slob stew in his own mess will be deliciously fun!!!
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
chill out. Far worse stuff said on this forum than traitor.
I disagree, but maybe I am old-fashioned. It is cowardly in the extreme to make such accusations from the safety of a keyboard.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
It’s not entirely clear - in that bit - what happens if Boris refuses to ask for an extension. It does clearly say the EU can then offer an extension of their devising, and either Boris can accept, or he can delegate it to parliament (who will accept )
So, again, I think I’m right.
No, because the wording is "If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 ..."
Perhaps it would indeed have been better to say "decides to offer," but evidently the bill wasn't drafted to accommodate a prime ministerial refusal to comply with statute law.
Ah, you’re just a bit dim. Got it. The word ‘agree’ simply means agree within the European Council, where we have no say or veto.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
It’s not entirely clear - in that bit - what happens if Boris refuses to ask for an extension. It does clearly say the EU can then offer an extension of their devising, and either Boris can accept, or he can delegate it to parliament (who will accept )
So, again, I think I’m right.
No, because the wording is "If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 ..."
Perhaps it would indeed have been better to say "decides to offer," but evidently the bill wasn't drafted to accommodate a prime ministerial refusal to comply with statute law.
Ah, you’re just a bit dim. Got it. The word ‘agree’ simply means agree within the European Council, where we have no say or veto.
It seems far more likely to mean 'agree' with the PMs request given that is what is entirely about
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Parliament/Westminster is playing a very, very dangerous game and I'm unsure what is is they think they are going to achieve - if they think the electorate will blame Boris for their game playing they are deluded (but then Remainers never have understood Leavers and have never made any attempt to do so - that's been half the problem)
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
However little can be said for Cromwell 'Yokel' is not the right term for graduates of Sidney Sussex and sons of gentlemen.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
It’s not entirely clear - in that bit - what happens if Boris refuses to ask for an extension. It does clearly say the EU can then offer an extension of their devising, and either Boris can accept, or he can delegate it to parliament (who will accept )
So, again, I think I’m right.
No, because the wording is "If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 ..."
Perhaps it would indeed have been better to say "decides to offer," but evidently the bill wasn't drafted to accommodate a prime ministerial refusal to comply with statute law.
Ah, you’re just a bit dim. Got it. The word ‘agree’ simply means agree within the European Council, where we have no say or veto.
Don't talk nonsense.
It is what it means.
Under Article 50 we don't sit on the European Council for this and the European Council will reach an agreement without us.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
Are you still a Conservative these days?
I resigned from the party on the expulsion of 21 good decent conservative mps.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Parliament/Westminster is playing a very, very dangerous game and I'm unsure what is is they think they are going to achieve - if they think the electorate will blame Boris for their game playing they are deluded (but then Remainers never have understood Leavers and have never made any attempt to do so - that's been half the problem)
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
Slightly different society nowadays matey. I may have sometimes used a little bit of hyperbole, but we are not there thankfully. More worrying is that we may be doing the bidding of Putin through allowing such cretins as Johnson and Corbyn near the leavers of power. He must ne pissing himself.
There's no such thing as a "bloc" for these purposes. There's confidence in individuals and no confidence in individuals.
I suggest that HM the Queen would call for the person Boris advised upon his resignation and no-one else. That looks like Corbyn unless something changed.
The crisis would be if Boris named no-one.
That's been fairly well done over here, hasn't it?
My understanding is that the Queen speaks to her advisers and they suggest somebody. If they cannot, or those they recommend also say they cannot command the confidence of the House, Boris remains PM.
One would expect a GE to follow pretty quickly in these circumstances, or at the expiry of the term under the FTPA.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
Its not a long or complicated document and as I read it the 'offer' of an extension relates specifically to responding to the PMs request, they "decide to *agree* an extension" because they have been asked for one.
They can do that in one of two ways accept the date requested in the letter or offer another one. In either case they are responding - 'agreeing' - to the request by the PM. In the latter case Parliament can validate the alternative date. This doesn't cope with the PM not offering it in the first place.
Hmm. The Act says the prime minister ‘must’ ask for an extension. In that light, Boris is suggesting he will resign, I think, or face the courts - rather than request to extend.
There's no such thing as a "bloc" for these purposes. There's confidence in individuals and no confidence in individuals.
I suggest that HM the Queen would call for the person Boris advised upon his resignation and no-one else. That looks like Corbyn unless something changed.
The crisis would be if Boris named no-one.
That's been fairly well done over here, hasn't it?
My understanding is that the Queen speaks to her advisers and they suggest somebody. If they cannot, or those they recommend also say they cannot command the confidence of the House, Boris remains PM.
One would expect a GE to follow pretty quickly in these circumstances, or at the expiry of the term under the FTPA.
It surely can't be right that Boris opposes a policy, is legally obliged to do it, and isn't allowed to resign?
Mr DougSeal, HYUFD is a pathetic little pipsqueak who is not fit to lick the boots of many of the people he is insulting. They are not traitors to anything . People who disagree with a course of action are not obliged to fall in behind any foolhardy position that a small majority believes in. What if 52% wanted a return to slavery, or some such other savagery? The minority would have every right to try and demonstrate it was wrong. Difficult to remonstrate with someone who blindly follows Boris Johnson with the devotion of a particularly stupid puppydog I guess!
I know. He is the classic university Conservative Association chairman. Which is why I don't let him get on my nerves if I can help it. We had a debate about the tyranny of the majority with Philip Thompson on here last night and I agree with your point entirely. My view of Brexit has always been let them try. They've tried. Look where we are.
I didn't get involved in the tyranny of the majority debate.
On the savagery question I will point out that our system led to the abolition of slavery. We were a leading proponent of abolishing slavery, before others. We have led the way time after time on improving human rights.
I trust our system. I trust our people.
Are you taking the piss? Our system led to the North Atlantic Slave trade and millions of deaths before abolishing it. That's like wanting credit for putting out a fire you yourself started.
You don't trust a major part of the system, the Commons, which the people voted for. You're also not a big fan of the judiciary. You trust what you think the people want - that's about it. When they don't behave exactly as you like, in electing the current parliament for example. You like *bits* of the system. Indeed you most like a bit of the system, referenda, that has not historically been part of it.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
Are you still a Conservative these days?
I resigned from the party on the expulsion of 21 good decent conservative mps.
If Boris does not want them he does not want me
Would you have resigned in 1993 if Major had expelled Cash, Redwood, IDS and 18 others if they'd rebelled on the Maastricht Confidence vote?
Ken Clarke was in the cabinet that agreed to that punishment being meted out to anyone who rebelled. Was he wrong to do so?
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Parliament/Westminster is playing a very, very dangerous game and I'm unsure what is is they think they are going to achieve - if they think the electorate will blame Boris for their game playing they are deluded (but then Remainers never have understood Leavers and have never made any attempt to do so - that's been half the problem)
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
However little can be said for Cromwell 'Yokel' is not the right term for graduates of Sidney Sussex and sons of gentlemen.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Parliament/Westminster is playing a very, very dangerous game and I'm unsure what is is they think they are going to achieve - if they think the electorate will blame Boris for their game playing they are deluded (but then Remainers never have understood Leavers and have never made any attempt to do so - that's been half the problem)
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
I agree. People are not going to take to the streets with pikes today but the damage to the institutions which underpin the current democratic system is profound.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
chill out. Far worse stuff said on this forum than traitor.
I agree. He called me "anti-British" and nearly went off on one before I remembered I had described one poster here as looking like a stuffed toy after an ancounter with the customs officers looking for drugs. Motes and beams and all that - so I bit my tongue
He even accused me of being a lib dem and keeps repeating it, bless him
Yes, really very sad. While I don't approve of violence, I might imagine that it could be amusing to see him accuse a couple of the ex Army lads I know of being "traitors" for supporting remain.
I myself voted Remain so what an idiotic argument but I also respect democracy unlike most MPs
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
Its not a long or complicated document and as I read it the 'offer' of an extension relates specifically to responding to the PMs request, they "decide to *agree* an extension" because they have been asked for one.
They can do that in one of two ways accept the date requested in the letter or offer another one. In either case they are responding - 'agreeing' - to the request by the PM. In the latter case Parliament can validate the alternative date. This doesn't cope with the PM not offering it in the first place.
Hmm. The Act says the prime minister ‘must’ ask for an extension. In that light, Boris is suggesting he will resign, I think, or face the courts - rather than request to extend.
Yep I think that is the nub of it, if he doesn't resign and doesn't ask, he is breaking the law but since 31st Oct will come and go while the lawyers squeal, I am not sure how it plays out. There would be a few days after Oct 19th when he is in breach that Parliament could hatch something else I suppose and allow someone else to make the request...but who else represents the Govt...or panic based Revoke and go around it all again post the election
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Parliament/Westminster is playing a very, very dangerous game and I'm unsure what is is they think they are going to achieve - if they think the electorate will blame Boris for their game playing they are deluded (but then Remainers never have understood Leavers and have never made any attempt to do so - that's been half the problem)
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
Not sure they'd have been that amazed tbh. Less than a hundred years previously they'd had a king who'd beheaded two of his queens and executed advisors, nobles & prelates, a usurper queen beheaded, a queen who beheaded the grandmother of their current king, a serious attempt at regicide & the destruction of parliament and a steady flow of burnings and disembowellings of sundry individuals for praying a bit differently to whatever was the current mode.
Mr DougSeal, HYUFD is a pathetic little pipsqueak who is not fit to lick the boots of many of the people he is insulting. They are not traitors to anything . People who disagree with a course of action are not obliged to fall in behind any foolhardy position that a small majority believes in. What if 52% wanted a return to slavery, or some such other savagery? The minority would have every right to try and demonstrate it was wrong. Difficult to remonstrate with someone who blindly follows Boris Johnson with the devotion of a particularly stupid puppydog I guess!
I know. He is the classic university Conservative Association chairman. Which is why I don't let him get on my nerves if I can help it. We had a debate about the tyranny of the majority with Philip Thompson on here last night and I agree with your point entirely. My view of Brexit has always been let them try. They've tried. Look where we are.
I didn't get involved in the tyranny of the majority debate.
On the savagery question I will point out that our system led to the abolition of slavery. We were a leading proponent of abolishing slavery, before others. We have led the way time after time on improving human rights.
I trust our system. I trust our people.
Are you taking the piss? Our system led to the North Atlantic Slave trade and millions of deaths before abolishing it. That's like wanting credit for putting out a fire you yourself started.
You don't trust a major part of the system, the Commons, which the people voted for. You're also not a big fan of the judiciary. You trust what you think the people want - that's about it. When they don't behave exactly as you like, in electing the current parliament for example. You like *bits* of the system. Indeed you most like a bit of the system, referenda, that has not historically been part of it.
As Billy Joel sang "we didn't start the fire".
The slave trade existed for as long as recorded humanity existed as far as I know. The Bible even gives details on slavery and its rules under religion.
We didn't start slavery or the slave trade. We did end it.
I do trust the Commons and especially the Commons being held to account at General Elections. I do trust the judiciary, where have I ever said otherwise?
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
chill out. Far worse stuff said on this forum than traitor.
I agree. He called me "anti-British" and nearly went off on one before I remembered I had described one poster here as looking like a stuffed toy after an ancounter with the customs officers looking for drugs. Motes and beams and all that - so I bit my tongue
He even accused me of being a lib dem and keeps repeating it, bless him
Yes, really very sad. While I don't approve of violence, I might imagine that it could be amusing to see him accuse a couple of the ex Army lads I know of being "traitors" for supporting remain.
Impliedly threatening me with violence also does you no credit
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
Are you still a Conservative these days?
I resigned from the party on the expulsion of 21 good decent conservative mps.
If Boris does not want them he does not want me
Would you have resigned in 1993 if Major had expelled Cash, Redwood, IDS and 18 others if they'd rebelled on the Maastricht Confidence vote?
Ken Clarke was in the cabinet that agreed to that punishment being meted out to anyone who rebelled. Was he wrong to do so?
I was not a member then.
I will not condone Boris ( Cummings) treatment of 21 conservative mps, most of whom voted for TM which I endorse, and are one nation conservatives like myself
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
It’s not entirely clear - in that bit - what happens if Boris refuses to ask for an extension. It does clearly say the EU can then offer an extension of their devising, and either Boris can accept, or he can delegate it to parliament (who will accept )
So, again, I think I’m right.
No, because the wording is "If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 ..."
Perhaps it would indeed have been better to say "decides to offer," but evidently the bill wasn't drafted to accommodate a prime ministerial refusal to comply with statute law.
Ah, you’re just a bit dim. Got it. The word ‘agree’ simply means agree within the European Council, where we have no say or veto.
It seems far more likely to mean 'agree' with the PMs request given that is what is entirely about
It’s quite poorly drafted, it seems to me. Far from the masterpiece of legislating that some have described. But IANAL
Nontheless I’m pretty sure ‘agree’ here, means ‘agree within the EU Council’. Not ‘agree with the UK PM’. The second interpretation renders the whole thing useless.
‘If by the end of 19 October the House of Commons has done neither of these things, the Prime Minister must then have sought from the European Council an extension of Article 50 for a further four months – until 31 January 2020.
If at any time after 19 October a withdrawal agreement is approved by the Commons, or the Commons decides the UK should leave without a deal, the Prime Minister can withdraw or modify his Article 50 extension request.
What happens if the European Council offers an extension? If the European Council offers a further extension until 31 January 2020, subsection 3(1) of this Bill compels the Prime Minister to inform the European Council that the UK agrees to the extension. This compulsion was not explicit in the Cooper-Letwin Bill back in April.
If the European Council offers a further extension, but to a date other than 31 January 2020, under subsections 3(2-3) the Prime Minister has two choices. Either he can:
(a) agree to that extension, or
(b) ask the House of Commons (within two calendar days) whether it wishes to approve that extension.
If the House of Commons “decides not to pass” a specifically-worded motion approving the extension, the Prime Minister then has a free choice whether or not to agree to the extension under subsection 3(4).’
That's exactly what I've been telling you!
Good God.
Its not a long or complicated document and as I read it the 'offer' of an extension relates specifically to responding to the PMs request, they "decide to *agree* an extension" because they have been asked for one.
They can do that in one of two ways accept the date requested in the letter or offer another one. In either case they are responding - 'agreeing' - to the request by the PM. In the latter case Parliament can validate the alternative date. This doesn't cope with the PM not offering it in the first place.
Hmm. The Act says the prime minister ‘must’ ask for an extension. In that light, Boris is suggesting he will resign, I think, or face the courts - rather than request to extend.
Yes, Cummings will have gamed that having Boris direct an election campaign from a prison cell will conjure up romantic images of the glorious martyr amongst the adoring masses. If the Remoaner traitors can somehow conspire to make him drag a wooden cross up Pall Mall then all the better!
Yes, really very sad. While I don't approve of violence, I might imagine that it could be amusing to see him accuse a couple of the ex Army lads I know of being "traitors" for supporting remain.
Not appropriate to bring that up tbh.
I am a one such ex army lad who voted remain and I don't wish to slap @HYUFD. I want to help him. Hug would be going a bit far but I'd happily buy him a cinzano.
Because as he is a diehard remainer he is evidently having a huge problem realising that the Conservative party no longer wants him. He believes their Brexit policy is deeply misguided and disagrees with it but has not yet got to the point of self-confidence whereby he can let go.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
Are you still a Conservative these days?
I resigned from the party on the expulsion of 21 good decent conservative mps.
If Boris does not want them he does not want me
Would you have resigned in 1993 if Major had expelled Cash, Redwood, IDS and 18 others if they'd rebelled on the Maastricht Confidence vote?
Ken Clarke was in the cabinet that agreed to that punishment being meted out to anyone who rebelled. Was he wrong to do so?
I was not a member then.
I will not condone Boris ( Cummings) treatment of 21 conservative mps, most of whom voted for TM which I endorse, and are one nation conservatives like myself
No offence but you are old enough to remember those days politically though aren't you?
At the time did you think Major was being outrageous? You may not condone that action but Ken Clarke condoned it when he was in the cabinet. You disagree with Ken Clarke over this?
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
chill out. Far worse stuff said on this forum than traitor.
I disagree, but maybe I am old-fashioned. It is cowardly in the extreme to make such accusations from the safety of a keyboard.
It is libel. But worse, it is what lazy people do when their strong feelings are untethered to any firm realities. They escalate because their egos can't face the reality that they are sometimes wrong.
Yes, really very sad. While I don't approve of violence, I might imagine that it could be amusing to see him accuse a couple of the ex Army lads I know of being "traitors" for supporting remain.
I myself voted Remain so what an idiotic argument but I also respect democracy unlike most MPs
I don't mind your views, you are often proved right, but your use of violent language and imagery is (for those who have experienced *actual* violence and conflict especially) off-putting and detracts from your points - of which you have many good ones. It's a shame that you wrap them up in juvenile language from the pages of "Commando" magazine. (is that still a thing?)
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
The truth is that politics has polarised further this week. Each side of this conflict (it is no longer a debate) can point to real problems with the other position.
There is no clear right or wrong, good or bad here any more. We need to accept that.
Agreed. The nation is endangered. Enough, now.
Parliament is acting like a lawyer defending a paedophile or a terrorist who is guilty, but looks like getting off on a technicality, Boris is saying he should be hanged, and the progressives are more angry at him than the lawyer.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
Are you still a Conservative these days?
I resigned from the party on the expulsion of 21 good decent conservative mps.
If Boris does not want them he does not want me
Would you have resigned in 1993 if Major had expelled Cash, Redwood, IDS and 18 others if they'd rebelled on the Maastricht Confidence vote?
Ken Clarke was in the cabinet that agreed to that punishment being meted out to anyone who rebelled. Was he wrong to do so?
I was not a member then.
I will not condone Boris ( Cummings) treatment of 21 conservative mps, most of whom voted for TM which I endorse, and are one nation conservatives like myself
Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman (father and mother of the house) dream ticket.
Could quite possibly command the confidence of the house.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the same
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
So, who are they going to vote for? Plaid?
Conwy/Colwyn was a Leave area in 2016. It appears to still be a Leave area
Not labour for sure but it is a very marginal con-labour seat.
Of course Colwyn Bay is held by David Jones, a huge brexiteer
Are you still a Conservative these days?
I resigned from the party on the expulsion of 21 good decent conservative mps.
If Boris does not want them he does not want me
Would you have resigned in 1993 if Major had expelled Cash, Redwood, IDS and 18 others if they'd rebelled on the Maastricht Confidence vote?
Ken Clarke was in the cabinet that agreed to that punishment being meted out to anyone who rebelled. Was he wrong to do so?
I was not a member then.
I will not condone Boris ( Cummings) treatment of 21 conservative mps, most of whom voted for TM which I endorse, and are one nation conservatives like myself
No offence but you are old enough to remember those days politically though aren't you?
At the time did you think Major was being outrageous? You may not condone that action but Ken Clarke condoned it when he was in the cabinet. You disagree with Ken Clarke over this?
Yes but I was not as politically involved as I was running my business and politics were I suppose much like most people today something that was of passing interest
Alastair explains this better than i can but if Parliament is prorogued until 14th October and then needs to re-convene and vote through an early GE that takes a minimum of 5 weeks then it has a very narrow window to successfully land at the end of November.
It’s really a bet on proroguation being cancelled or curtailed. VoNC shenanigans or even a new bill to terminate the session notwithstanding the FTPA wouldn’t make it any faster.
The only day in November it could realistically be is 28th. EU Summit is on 17th/18th October, earliest Parliament would be dissolved is week beginning 21st, and 25 working days takes us to week beginning 25th. Could theoretically not be a Thursday, but why bother when the immediate deadline is gone?
Yes, I'd bet against November. Particularly given he might try to tart up May's deal a bit at the summit, and have a last ditch attempt to make 31st, "do or die".
It seems far more likely to mean 'agree' with the PMs request given that is what is entirely about
It’s quite poorly drafted, it seems to me. Far from the masterpiece of legislating that some have described. But IANAL
Nontheless I’m pretty sure ‘agree’ here, means ‘agree within the EU Council’. Not ‘agree with the UK PM’. The second interpretation renders the whole thing useless.
I agree the drafting isn't great - it should refer back to the request clearly, so who knows what the courts would decide. but if the *agree* does relate to the request, then its only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
Yep I think that is the nub of it, if he doesn't resign and doesn't ask, he is breaking the law but since 31st Oct will come and go while the lawyers squeal, I am not sure how it plays out. There would be a few days after Oct 19th when he is in breach that Parliament could hatch something else …..
That's exactly what will happen.
The EU is carefully agnostic on which element of the state is responsible for notification - as long as there's a law saying that X has the authority, they'll go along with it.
Alastair explains this better than i can but if Parliament is prorogued until 14th October and then needs to re-convene and vote through an early GE that takes a minimum of 5 weeks then it has a very narrow window to successfully land at the end of November.
It’s really a bet on proroguation being cancelled or curtailed. VoNC shenanigans or even a new bill to terminate the session notwithstanding the FTPA wouldn’t make it any faster.
We know that the opposition parties are opposed to a pre-Halloween election, I wonder whether they want an election soon thereafter, or in March, or seven weeks after the Tories have lost their poll lead...?
Alastair explains this better than i can but if Parliament is prorogued until 14th October and then needs to re-convene and vote through an early GE that takes a minimum of 5 weeks then it has a very narrow window to successfully land at the end of November.
It’s really a bet on proroguation being cancelled or curtailed. VoNC shenanigans or even a new bill to terminate the session notwithstanding the FTPA wouldn’t make it any faster.
We know that the opposition parties are opposed to a pre-Halloween election, I wonder whether they want an election soon thereafter, or in March, or seven weeks after the Tories have lost their poll lead...?
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
Richard Tice on QT was very clear where the blame would lie if we don't leave on 31st October and it wasn't with Boris who I noted he was very supportative of.
Sooner or later cowardly Corbyn will have to stop cowering from behind the sofa and actually face the voters and when he does I suspect the voters verdict will be merciless.
This is correct. Ordinary law abiding citizens are starting to use language about our parliamentary system and MPs which should cause parliamentarians to sit up and think.
The echoes of the Civil War are, once again, profound. If you’d asked parliamentarians in the 1630s whether they’d end up beheading the king, they would have called you mad. Back then, Oliver Cromwell was an obscure yokel.
But what started with arcane disputes about money ended up with the overthrow of the entire system, and with Cromwell as Lord Protector.
Not sure they'd have been that amazed tbh. Less than a hundred years previously they'd had a king who'd beheaded two of his queens and executed advisors, nobles & prelates, a usurper queen beheaded, a queen who beheaded the grandmother of their current king, a serious attempt at regicide & the destruction of parliament and a steady flow of burnings and disembowellings of sundry individuals for praying a bit differently to whatever was the current mode.
Good times.
True enough. But I’ve read a lot of Civil War history. No one but the crazies envisaged killing the King, not when the agitations in parliament began. But then things became more polarised...
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.
Well, someone needs to tell the electorate then because the opinion polls show a spike in BXP support and fall for the Tories if Brexit is delayed again post 31st October.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.
Well, someone needs to tell the electorate then because the opinion polls show a spike in BXP support and fall for the Tories if Brexit is delayed again post 31st October.
Though even then ICM still has Labour only tied with the Tories on 28% each and the Brexit Party on 18%.
However as said Boris will refuse to extend himself
Mr DougSeal, HYUFD is a pathetic little pipsqueak who is not fit to lick the boots of many of the people he is insulting. They are not traitors to anything . People who disagree with a course of action are not obliged to fall in behind any foolhardy position that a small majority believes in. What if 52% wanted a return to slavery, or some such other savagery? The minority would have every right to try and demonstrate it was wrong. Difficult to remonstrate with someone who blindly follows Boris Johnson with the devotion of a particularly stupid puppydog I guess!
I know. He is the classic university Conservative Association chairman. Which is why I don't let him get on my nerves if I can help it. We had a debate about the tyranny of the majority with Philip Thompson on here last night and I agree with your point entirely. My view of Brexit has always been let them try. They've tried. Look where we are.
I didn't get involved in the tyranny of the majority debate.
On the savagery question I will point out that our system led to the abolition of slavery. We were a leading proponent of abolishing slavery, before others. We have led the way time after time on improving human rights.
I trust our system. I trust our people.
Are you taking the piss? Our system led to the North Atlantic Slave trade and millions of deaths before abolishing it. That's like wanting credit for putting out a fire you yourself started.
(Snip)
You are both right. Britain (England, really) were a key force in internationalising and industrialising the existing slave trade. It is a hideous stain on our past.
However, there is the other side of the equation: when we decided to abolish slavery, we not only abolished it for ourselves, but tried abolishing it when it was done by others - aided by our Navy. We had no reason to do this: we could just have 'banned' it and let the slavers get on with their evil work.
Some people say the costs of the latter more than offset the profits from the former. Not just in money: in 1829, over a quarter of the men serving in the squadron died of illness.
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the same
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted against
Hmm. The Act says the prime minister ‘must’ ask for an extension. In that light, Boris is suggesting he will resign, I think, or face the courts - rather than request to extend.
Yep I think that is the nub of it, if he doesn't resign and doesn't ask, he is breaking the law but since 31st Oct will come and go while the lawyers squeal, I am not sure how it plays out. There would be a few days after Oct 19th when he is in breach that Parliament could hatch something else I suppose and allow someone else to make the request...but who else represents the Govt...or panic based Revoke and go around it all again post the election
Surely Boris will resign,probably very close to The EU council meeting . He won't risk being prosecuted and/or sued personally.The question is who becomes the PM to make the surrender request and achieve Neville Chamberlain status.
Has anyone got a graphic for falling over a cliff?
Yes it would indeed. A majority Tory government could resolve this quite simply.
A majority government would not change attitudes in the EU so we would leave without a deal. You disagree I know but it won't change the fundamentals over in Dublin, Brussels or elsewhere in the EU. It's not Tory weakness in Parliament that is stopping a deal it's a refusal to accept the backstop. And that will not be removed.
This debate is silly the people will get their election in November so what if it is three weeks later than Johnson wants. During that election parties set out their stalls and the people vote. The winner gets to decide what happens next what is wrong with that at worst it is a 10% extension of the time since the referendum took place why is anyone getting so wound up?
Just heard a quote on 5 Live news headline one of the 'rebel alliance' (didn't hear who, female) saying they have a chance to "bring down Boris and bring down Brexit".
The mask slips. We can all see and hear what is going on. This next election is a referendum by proxy - if you want Brexit vote Boris's Conservatives. If you don't vote Lib Dem/Labour/SNP/Plaid/Greens/Independents.
It's true buy I'm not sure referring to it as ref by proxy is a good idea as while Tories might win the vote share will favour remain slightly. Obviously that means nothing for parliamentary seats but if you call it s ref by proxy the comparison if remain parties get more votes will be inevitable
There's no such thing as a "bloc" for these purposes. There's confidence in individuals and no confidence in individuals.
I suggest that HM the Queen would call for the person Boris advised upon his resignation and no-one else. That looks like Corbyn unless something changed.
The crisis would be if Boris named no-one.
That's been fairly well done over here, hasn't it?
My understanding is that the Queen speaks to her advisers and they suggest somebody. If they cannot, or those they recommend also say they cannot command the confidence of the House, Boris remains PM.
One would expect a GE to follow pretty quickly in these circumstances, or at the expiry of the term under the FTPA.
It surely can't be right that Boris opposes a policy, is legally obliged to do it, and isn't allowed to resign?
I think that must be right; but also that someone must be PM. Another circle to square.
Alastair explains this better than i can but if Parliament is prorogued until 14th October and then needs to re-convene and vote through an early GE that takes a minimum of 5 weeks then it has a very narrow window to successfully land at the end of November.
It’s really a bet on proroguation being cancelled or curtailed. VoNC shenanigans or even a new bill to terminate the session notwithstanding the FTPA wouldn’t make it any faster.
The only day in November it could realistically be is 28th. EU Summit is on 17th/18th October, earliest Parliament would be dissolved is week beginning 21st, and 25 working days takes us to week beginning 25th. Could theoretically not be a Thursday, but why bother when the immediate deadline is gone?
Yes, I'd bet against November. Particularly given he might try to tart up May's deal a bit at the summit, and have a last ditch attempt to make 31st, "do or die".
Fair points very well made by Casino and Sir Norfolk.
Regarding December, are we really going to have an election in the thick dark, possibly rain, sleet and snow of winter?? Somehow, I can't see it. There are only two possible dates in any case – 4 and 11 Dec – on 18 Dec the schools break up and many people will be travelling/away.
Surely Boris will resign,probably very close to The EU council meeting . He won't risk being prosecuted and/or sued personally.The question is who becomes the PM to make the surrender request and achieve Neville Chamberlain status.
Just heard a quote on 5 Live news headline one of the 'rebel alliance' (didn't hear who, female) saying they have a chance to "bring down Boris and bring down Brexit".
The mask slips. We can all see and hear what is going on. This next election is a referendum by proxy - if you want Brexit vote Boris's Conservatives. If you don't vote Lib Dem/Labour/SNP/Plaid/Greens/Independents.
Why "the mask slips" - was anyone pretending different?
Dom and Dommer are clearly gearing up to re-fight the referendum, hence the lets give £1bn a month which goes to Brussels, to the police, and the risible police-themed speech of yesterday.
Mr DougSeal, HYUFD is a pathetic little pipsqueak who is not fit to lick the boots of many of the people he is insulting. They are not traitors to anything . People who disagree with a course of action are not obliged to fall in behind any foolhardy position that a small majority believes in. What if 52% wanted a return to slavery, or some such other savagery? The minority would have every right to try and demonstrate it was wrong. Difficult to remonstrate with someone who blindly follows Boris Johnson with the devotion of a particularly stupid puppydog I guess!
I know. He is the classic university Conservative Association chairman. Which is why I don't let him get on my nerves if I can help it. We had a debate about the tyranny of the majority with Philip Thompson on here last night and I agree with your point entirely. My view of Brexit has always been let them try. They've tried. Look where we are.
I didn't get involved in the tyranny of the majority debate.
On the savagery question I will point out that our system led to the abolition of slavery. We were a leading proponent of abolishing slavery, before others. We have led the way time after time on improving human rights.
I trust our system. I trust our people.
Are you taking the piss? Our system led to the North Atlantic Slave trade and millions of deaths before abolishing it. That's like wanting credit for putting out a fire you yourself started.
(Snip)
You are both right. Britain (England, really) were a key force in internationalising and industrialising the existing slave trade. It is a hideous stain on our past.
However, there is the other side of the equation: when we decided to abolish slavery, we not only abolished it for ourselves, but tried abolishing it when it was done by others - aided by our Navy. We had no reason to do this: we could just have 'banned' it and let the slavers get on with their evil work.
Some people say the costs of the latter more than offset the profits from the former. Not just in money: in 1829, over a quarter of the men serving in the squadron died of illness.
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
"You started that fire, but here's a medal for putting it out"
It seems far more likely to mean 'agree' with the PMs request given that is what is entirely about
It’s quite poorly drafted, it seems to me. Far from the masterpiece of legislating that some have described. But IANAL
Nontheless I’m pretty sure ‘agree’ here, means ‘agree within the EU Council’. Not ‘agree with the UK PM’. The second interpretation renders the whole thing useless.
I agree the drafting isn't great - it should refer back to the request clearly, so who knows what the courts would decide. but if the *agree* does relate to the request, then its only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
We need to ask Grieve and Letwin WTAF their silly law means. Incredible that vital words are open to dispute, and crucial points are left vague. I thought it was watertight?!
Don’t understand why Boris doesn’t play the finance angle - this bill doesn’t authorise the Uk to hand over £3Bn - cut off the fee and there won’t be an extension.
only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
Well the opposition has repeatedly said it doesn't trust Johnson. Surely if you don't trust him you'll try and remove him at the first opportunity ?
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
Sorry that is not true. I think many remain voting MPs share the view that is similar to mine. We cannot revoke. Most supported the WA. Compromise is needed but not being offered by this idiot PM
PS HYUFD completely destroyed any shred of cred he had when he started using the word "traitor". I have many friends and family who are remain sympathetic and have served their country in the armed forces. What the fuck has this idiot done for his country I would like to know?
I never said traitors to country, I said traitors to democracy, which they undoubtedly are having refused to respect the winning Leave vote despite voting to have the referendum and invoke Article 50 and most of the country feels the same
The majority of voters backed parties that specifically opposed a No Deal Brexit in the 2017 General Election. They did so again in the 2019 European Elections.
Leaving, with a deal, is the thing voters consistently have voted for, and MPs have consistently voted against
Yep - so we need to get to a deal that most voters and MPs would accept. That involves EEA/EFTA, but is politically impossible for the Tories to support becaue it would destroy them.
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.
Well, someone needs to tell the electorate then because the opinion polls show a spike in BXP support and fall for the Tories if Brexit is delayed again post 31st October.
Voters don't tell until they tell John Curtice on the day
I have just returned from town having met a colleague from years ago and she has always been non political. Not this morning, she is furious with the mps for attempting to stop brexit and wants them gone
Later in Asda I overheard a group discussing brexit and they too were very angry and the target of that anger was Corbyn
Now we have a rebel alliance refusing the legitimate request to put it to the people until they think no deal is off the table, which of course it is not if Boris wins a GE on the basis of deal or no deal
Also does Gina Millar and John Major think they are winning the ordinary voters over with their elite attitude and pots of money attempts through the High and Supreme Courts decision on proroguing parliament. Most people have no idea about the detail but just see a group of the privileged colluding with the EU to stop brexit
Boris is a fool, but I am beginning to think the public are looking elswhere at the fools resisting brexit by any means possible
I don't think Boris is a fool. I think Boris could be heading for the biggest landslide victory since 1931.
Telling the British public they voted the wrong way 3 years ago is one thing, telling them they voted the wrong way then and you don't trust them to vote again now is . . . incredible!
That’s not the plan, at least not for the opposition parties. It’s to fuck the Conservatives.
If the Brexit vote splits between TBXP and the Tories then it does no good whatsoever in a GE.
Boris has done everything he needs to neuter BXP.
In March May wanted an extension, she voted for an extension on a free vote prior to Europe agreeing to it. Extension was her choice. As a result Brexiteers abandoned her.
Boris isn't doing that. Even if there's an extension its going to be clear who is to blame. I have lifelong Labour voters on Facebook outraged at Parliament and sharing Leave.EU stuff saying BXP and Boris need to work together.
The idea Parliament can frustrate an election, frustrate Brexit and the voters will blame Boris is too clever by half. We can see right through it. You don't even need to be politically engaged to see through it.
Well, someone needs to tell the electorate then because the opinion polls show a spike in BXP support and fall for the Tories if Brexit is delayed again post 31st October.
I think somebody needs to give the electorate a good talking to. "I'm not angry. Just very disappointed....
Thats what MV3 was attempting to do. It didnt work. Some labour mps are promising that this time theyd back it but thats not enough. Some of the expelled Tories backed it but might not again.
I think it's too big a risk for Boris. Theoretically since he promised brexit do or die that must include being willing to try the WA again, if tweaked. But theres no guarantee it passes and then hes ripped to shreds by Farage and the Spartans. And even if he gets it through BXP surge to some extent, then labour agree to take him down and hes out of office.
Surely Boris will resign,probably very close to The EU council meeting . He won't risk being prosecuted and/or sued personally.The question is who becomes the PM to make the surrender request and achieve Neville Chamberlain status.
This means resignation. Corbyn in No.10, massively legitimised.
Corbyn in No 10 for 10 seconds purely to extend as Neville Chamberlain 2, Tories then sweep through Labour Leave seats at the subsequent general election with Boris campaigning as Winston Churchill (while rightly telling Tory Remainers vote LD you get Corbyn)
You are such a prat, not even funny anymore. What has happened to you? You used to make some sensible comment. Now it is all war comic references and referring to decent British citizens as "traitors" for not agreeing with your myopic view. I am beginning to think you are actually a bot from Moscow.
Calm down. HYUFD can be strident, but he and Big G might well be right. We could be looking at a seismic shift in public opinion, as anger at parliament grows.
That anger is justified. MPs are spineless narcissists. We all know they want to Remain. But they are too scared to admit it. Well then, grow some fucking hairy bollocks and Revoke, if that’s what you want. Or call a new referendum. Just stop this wretched, self-serving pantomime of ‘delay’.
We. Need. Polls.
The truth is that politics has polarised further this week. Each side of this conflict (it is no longer a debate) can point to real problems with the other position.
There is no clear right or wrong, good or bad here any more. We need to accept that.
Agreed. The nation is endangered. Enough, now.
While our politicians are refusing to allow the 2016 referendum to be implemented and refusing to allow an election that could resolve the impasse nothing will change.
Comments
The mask slips. We can all see and hear what is going on. This next election is a referendum by proxy - if you want Brexit vote Boris's Conservatives. If you don't vote Lib Dem/Labour/SNP/Plaid/Greens/Independents.
Also Farage is God Emperor of that particular cabal.
Like Trump best to fight the insurgent cause whilst wearing the colours of one of the big parties.
My long-predicted Chris Grayling/Williamson co-premiership creeps ever closer.
On the savagery question I will point out that our system led to the abolition of slavery. We were a leading proponent of abolishing slavery, before others. We have led the way time after time on improving human rights.
I trust our system. I trust our people.
Under Article 50 we don't sit on the European Council for this and the European Council will reach an agreement without us.
If Boris does not want them he does not want me
More worrying is that we may be doing the bidding of Putin through allowing such cretins as Johnson and Corbyn near the leavers of power. He must ne pissing himself.
My understanding is that the Queen speaks to her advisers and they suggest somebody. If they cannot, or those they recommend also say they cannot command the confidence of the House, Boris remains PM.
One would expect a GE to follow pretty quickly in these circumstances, or at the expiry of the term under the FTPA.
Hmm. The Act says the prime minister ‘must’ ask for an extension. In that light, Boris is suggesting he will resign, I think, or face the courts - rather than request to extend.
Shy Leavers is a thing. I know several...
You don't trust a major part of the system, the Commons, which the people voted for. You're also not a big fan of the judiciary. You trust what you think the people want - that's about it. When they don't behave exactly as you like, in electing the current parliament for example. You like *bits* of the system. Indeed you most like a bit of the system, referenda, that has not historically been part of it.
Ken Clarke was in the cabinet that agreed to that punishment being meted out to anyone who rebelled. Was he wrong to do so?
Good times.
The slave trade existed for as long as recorded humanity existed as far as I know. The Bible even gives details on slavery and its rules under religion.
We didn't start slavery or the slave trade. We did end it.
I do trust the Commons and especially the Commons being held to account at General Elections. I do trust the judiciary, where have I ever said otherwise?
I will not condone Boris ( Cummings) treatment of 21 conservative mps, most of whom voted for TM which I endorse, and are one nation conservatives like myself
Nontheless I’m pretty sure ‘agree’ here, means ‘agree within the EU Council’. Not ‘agree with the UK PM’. The second interpretation renders the whole thing useless.
https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1169902266230304770?s=20
I am a one such ex army lad who voted remain and I don't wish to slap @HYUFD. I want to help him. Hug would be going a bit far but I'd happily buy him a cinzano.
Because as he is a diehard remainer he is evidently having a huge problem realising that the Conservative party no longer wants him. He believes their Brexit policy is deeply misguided and disagrees with it but has not yet got to the point of self-confidence whereby he can let go.
At the time did you think Major was being outrageous? You may not condone that action but Ken Clarke condoned it when he was in the cabinet. You disagree with Ken Clarke over this?
Has anyone got a graphic for falling over a cliff?
Could quite possibly command the confidence of the house.
Yes, I'd bet against November. Particularly given he might try to tart up May's deal a bit at the summit, and have a last ditch attempt to make 31st, "do or die".
It seems far more likely to mean 'agree' with the PMs request given that is what is entirely about
It’s quite poorly drafted, it seems to me. Far from the masterpiece of legislating that some have described. But IANAL
Nontheless I’m pretty sure ‘agree’ here, means ‘agree within the EU Council’. Not ‘agree with the UK PM’. The second interpretation renders the whole thing useless.
I agree the drafting isn't great - it should refer back to the request clearly, so who knows what the courts would decide. but if the *agree* does relate to the request, then its only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
He torched it.
The EU is carefully agnostic on which element of the state is responsible for notification - as long as there's a law saying that X has the authority, they'll go along with it.
I’m neutral on December.
However as said Boris will refuse to extend himself
However, there is the other side of the equation: when we decided to abolish slavery, we not only abolished it for ourselves, but tried abolishing it when it was done by others - aided by our Navy. We had no reason to do this: we could just have 'banned' it and let the slavers get on with their evil work.
The West Africa Squadron patrolled the African coast, intercepting slaving ships of many countries, not just our own, and freeing the slaves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron
Some people say the costs of the latter more than offset the profits from the former. Not just in money: in 1829, over a quarter of the men serving in the squadron died of illness.
So whilst we should never forget our role in a hideous trade (and one that we were not alone in doing), we can also take some pride that we eventually fought against it.
Regarding December, are we really going to have an election in the thick dark, possibly rain, sleet and snow of winter?? Somehow, I can't see it. There are only two possible dates in any case – 4 and 11 Dec – on 18 Dec the schools break up and many people will be travelling/away.
So perhaps Casino's 2020 play is the right one?
Fairly confident Cummings wargamed that one. Campaigning isn’t his problem.
Dom and Dommer are clearly gearing up to re-fight the referendum, hence the lets give £1bn a month which goes to Brussels, to the police, and the risible police-themed speech of yesterday.
It is also utter garbage.
If you think exiting the EU under this rabble will be simple, I have several bridges to sell you.
Nontheless I’m pretty sure ‘agree’ here, means ‘agree within the EU Council’. Not ‘agree with the UK PM’. The second interpretation renders the whole thing useless.
I agree the drafting isn't great - it should refer back to the request clearly, so who knows what the courts would decide. but if the *agree* does relate to the request, then its only 'useless' in the context that the Prime Minister is prepared to break the law with intent. Which I suppose in normal times is not something you tend to consider likely.
We need to ask Grieve and Letwin WTAF their silly law means. Incredible that vital words are open to dispute, and crucial points are left vague. I thought it was watertight?!
Bit miffed to see two McLarens in the top three of practice. Ah well.
Fuel Cummings up with cheap plonk and set him loose on Geoffrey Cox until he decides that his advice is that Johnson's fig-leaf changes everything.
Barring that, change the font.
I think it's too big a risk for Boris. Theoretically since he promised brexit do or die that must include being willing to try the WA again, if tweaked. But theres no guarantee it passes and then hes ripped to shreds by Farage and the Spartans. And even if he gets it through BXP surge to some extent, then labour agree to take him down and hes out of office.
He fired a lot MPs
He now has a "majority" of -44
Spin it any way you like....
In fact it will get even worse from here.