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Jacob Rees-Mogg is posh and condescending. Everyone knows that so what is the point of attacking him for being posh and condescending? It did not work against Boris and did not work against Cameron. That's his shtick; it is priced in.0
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Do or Die.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think that will work, its too clever by half.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169186427906777088
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169188008513458176
as predicted here last night...
The public aren't fools, if Parliament forces an extension with Boris voting against [and expelling any Tories who vote in favour] then it will be the opposition who broke Boris's pledge not Boris.
Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority. And he'd be right.
The Conservative Conference would be an election rally.
I'd expect the Tories to be at least 40% by November if this happens.
He did neither.0 -
But we know the Government is not trying to do a deal. What's his problem?eek said:
All that shows is Masterton can't identify a known liar lying to him.AlastairMeeks said:
In fairness to him, he did as always take the time to set out his reasons in detail.Theuniondivvie said:
That's what's slightly odd, if Masterton had shown a bit of spine it might have given him a ghost of a chance of keeping his seat (admittedly extremely ghostly).Pulpstar said:
Masterton is likely to lose his seat in a GE. Rest are in safe seats.eek said:
Enough rebelled yesterday to win. The rest can rebel on another day.Benpointer said:Anyone else wondering why there were six signatories to Hammond's 'No to No Deal' letter who didn't rebel yesterday?
IIUIC they were:
* Alberto Costa
* Simon Hoare
* David Lidington
* Paul Masterton
* Caroline Spelman
* Tom Tugendhat
What a bunch of hypocrites!
https://twitter.com/PM4EastRen/status/1168960672786472961
As have others in the cowardy-custard camp:
https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/11691396437381447680 -
So long WarnerBig_G_NorthWales said:1 for 1
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Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
No. How do you get to that from my question?Gallowgate said:
You really think the Tories will stand aside in vast swathes of Northern seats?beentheredonethat said:
What makes you believe it hasn’t been done already?Gallowgate said:Looking at Twitter, Brexit Party supporters are going to be very disappointed when Boris doesn’t pick up the phone to Farage to organise an electoral pact.
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Costa on BBC Radio Leicester said that he was reassured by the PM that a Deal was nearly there. Gullible or a coward?eek said:
Enough rebelled yesterday to win. The rest can rebel on another day.Benpointer said:Anyone else wondering why there were six signatories to Hammond's 'No to No Deal' letter who didn't rebel yesterday?
IIUIC they were:
* Alberto Costa
* Simon Hoare
* David Lidington
* Paul Masterton
* Caroline Spelman
* Tom Tugendhat
What a bunch of hypocrites!0 -
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a destiny we are going to and they can decide if they want to be a part of that or not. If not its a free country but get off the train.0 -
In that case, we can expect Johnson to agree if Corbyn suggests an election date in November or December, then?Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think that will work, its too clever by half.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169186427906777088
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169188008513458176
as predicted here last night...
The public aren't fools, if Parliament forces an extension with Boris voting against [and expelling any Tories who vote in favour] then it will be the opposition who broke Boris's pledge not Boris.
Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority. And he'd be right.
The Conservative Conference would be an election rally.
I'd expect the Tories to be at least 40% by November if this happens.0 -
That’s the pact.beentheredonethat said:
No. How do you get to that from my question?Gallowgate said:
You really think the Tories will stand aside in vast swathes of Northern seats?beentheredonethat said:
What makes you believe it hasn’t been done already?Gallowgate said:Looking at Twitter, Brexit Party supporters are going to be very disappointed when Boris doesn’t pick up the phone to Farage to organise an electoral pact.
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He did. His majority died.TOPPING said:
Do or Die.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think that will work, its too clever by half.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169186427906777088
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169188008513458176
as predicted here last night...
The public aren't fools, if Parliament forces an extension with Boris voting against [and expelling any Tories who vote in favour] then it will be the opposition who broke Boris's pledge not Boris.
Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority. And he'd be right.
The Conservative Conference would be an election rally.
I'd expect the Tories to be at least 40% by November if this happens.
He did neither.
Now he needs a new majority. Simple.0 -
He had a majority.Philip_Thompson said:Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority
He threw it away and shut down Parliament.
He was in charge.
If he can't hack it, elect someone who can...0 -
These Tory Leaver chaps really are impressive. How do you satirise them? Rees-Mogg is comic fiction personified.Nigelb said:
'How dare you question my entitlement by making excuses for my behaviour ?'StuartDickson said:
Negates 100% of the sympathy he was getting on here last night (much of it from opponents).Scott_P said:Stark_Dawning said:It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1169177120515481600Slackbladder said:I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.0 -
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.0 -
Had a chat with a friend who is not particularly political on the JRM pose. Her view was that 'so what?'.DecrepitJohnL said:Jacob Rees-Mogg is posh and condescending. Everyone knows that so what is the point of attacking him for being posh and condescending? It did not work against Boris and did not work against Cameron. That's his shtick; it is priced in.
I think the only people who will get truly excised by this as those who didn't like JRM and BoJo anyway.0 -
I said about a fortnight ago that DC ought to start and deny a rumour that he'd just had dinner with Farage/Tice/other BXP bod. Doing so now looks panicked, though.Slackbladder said:IF I was Cummings and IF I had war-gamed this then the masterstroke would be a deal with Farage, bringing him into the foldgiving him a safe seat and a role in government, and going full on no-deal.
thats still possible.0 -
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It was disrespectful that irritated me.DecrepitJohnL said:Jacob Rees-Mogg is posh and condescending. Everyone knows that so what is the point of attacking him for being posh and condescending? It did not work against Boris and did not work against Cameron. That's his shtick; it is priced in.
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Gullible - completely Gullible as the word from various Governments in Europe is that we haven't said or offered anything.Foxy said:
Costa on BBC Radio Leicester said that he was reassured by the PM that a Deal was nearly there. Gullible or a coward?eek said:
Enough rebelled yesterday to win. The rest can rebel on another day.Benpointer said:Anyone else wondering why there were six signatories to Hammond's 'No to No Deal' letter who didn't rebel yesterday?
IIUIC they were:
* Alberto Costa
* Simon Hoare
* David Lidington
* Paul Masterton
* Caroline Spelman
* Tom Tugendhat
What a bunch of hypocrites!0 -
Do or Die is thankfully one of the less ambiguous phrases of the English language.Philip_Thompson said:
He did. His majority died.TOPPING said:
Do or Die.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think that will work, its too clever by half.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169186427906777088
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169188008513458176
as predicted here last night...
The public aren't fools, if Parliament forces an extension with Boris voting against [and expelling any Tories who vote in favour] then it will be the opposition who broke Boris's pledge not Boris.
Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority. And he'd be right.
The Conservative Conference would be an election rally.
I'd expect the Tories to be at least 40% by November if this happens.
He did neither.
Now he needs a new majority. Simple.
He neither did, nor did he die.0 -
Sir Cliff settles with BBC, his legal costs were well over a Lineker
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-495769400 -
Agree, the conservatives can withdraw the whip from whoever they want for whatever reason (just as May could, maybe should, have withdrawn the whip from Johnson and others when they voted against her government's most important bill). I'm just objecting to the argument that this has to happen to rebels on this occasion because the bill in parliament was "a matter of confidence".Charles said:
Important to distinguish between party and governmentkamski said:
if it was in any sense a "matter of confidence" then the Prime Minister would immediately resign having lost the vote.Charles said:
Because if he votes against the party on a matter of confidence then he has chosen his path.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1169144620258910208Jonathan said:You get the feeling that the Tory party will wake up at some point realising what the hell it has done to itself. The only question is will it be too late to do anything about it.
Boris said. I am leader of the party. This is my policy. If you don’t agree then there’s the door
He won a clear majority of Tory MPs.
Those that don’t support the leadership on this fundamental policy can exit stage left0 -
As I mentioned upthread, taking a leaf out of the book of the LDs they now have a clear (or at least clearer) position that people can understand. The only problem is there remain a) 5m Cons Remain voters; and b) The Brexit Party.Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
That is the tightrope he needs to walk.0 -
Could you please explain?Charles said:
Important to distinguish between party and governmentkamski said:
if it was in any sense a "matter of confidence" then the Prime Minister would immediately resign having lost the vote.Charles said:
Because if he votes against the party on a matter of confidence then he has chosen his path.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1169144620258910208Jonathan said:You get the feeling that the Tory party will wake up at some point realising what the hell it has done to itself. The only question is will it be too late to do anything about it.
Boris said. I am leader of the party. This is my policy. If you don’t agree then there’s the door
He won a clear majority of Tory MPs.
Those that don’t support the leadership on this fundamental policy can exit stage left
Are you saying it was a matter of confidence in the PM and his policy, and those Tory MPs who oppose him should be expelled from the party? A strong position to take I suggest.
Or are you saying it was a matter of confidence in the Government - in which case the PM, having lost the confidence of the House, should resign.
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1 Most voters have never heard of the FTPA - they think the PM calls electionseristdoof said:
Floating voters this week will still be floating voters at the start of the election campaign, when the "scared of an election" slogan will be laughable.GIN1138 said:
Not committed Lab and Lib-Dem but most voters are floaters... And they'll take a dim view.Gallowgate said:Do Brexiteers really think Lib Dem or Labour voters will say: “I was going to vote for LibDem/Labour but now because I think they’re scared of an election I’m going to vote for Boris”??
Give your heads a shake.
Wait for Saturday night's polls.
2 If there is an election Johnson will get the praise/blame for bringing it about
3 Elections called unexpectedly early do not usually go well for governments - 2017, Feb 1974, 1970 and 1951 come to mind. Even Oct 1974 produced a much lower Labour majority than was expected at the start of the campaign. 1966 is the only exception
4 Johnson is in a uniquely weak position, vulnerable to attacks from right and left, his party is imploding and it is not at all clear that it is any fit state to fight the ground war that is crucial in marginal contests.0 -
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The issue is that Johnson has set himself up as a strong man. If he can be shown to be defeated by parliament on his "do or die" pledge, it doesn't matter if it wasn't his choice, it shows he cannot assert his will and get things done.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think that will work, its too clever by half.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169186427906777088
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1169188008513458176
as predicted here last night...
The public aren't fools, if Parliament forces an extension with Boris voting against [and expelling any Tories who vote in favour] then it will be the opposition who broke Boris's pledge not Boris.
Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority. And he'd be right.
The Conservative Conference would be an election rally.
I'd expect the Tories to be at least 40% by November if this happens.
For many voters his failure to do this won't necessarily mean they won't accept he tried, but that the normal routes of getting things done won't work, and so it is worth a punt on BXP.
And that is how Farage will play it as well: "Boris tried to fight the good fight, but the Tory party isn't up to the task of actually doing this, vote for me instead, I am the strong man who can make this happen"0 -
Except that isn’t the Venn diagram overlap.moonshine said:
I think there's something in this. Who do the 50-55% of Pro Union voters vote for? Corbyn's made it fairly clear he'd give up the union in exchange for power, which will turn off a good chunk of them once they think about it during an election. What's the Venn diagram overlap between Scottish Leaver (edit: 38%!!) and Unionist (50-55%)? I can personally see the Tories defying the odds in Scotland.TheKitchenCabinet said:Looking at this (too) simplistic, it seems from the outside that the Union / Independence dividing line is a more powerful driving factor than whether you are pro or anti-Brexit. That makes me think SCons might do better than those numbers suggest as pro-Union voters hold their noses to keep the SNP out and repeat 2017's tactical voting. It's easy to forget but TM's 2017 campaign wasn't exactly pushing an anti-Brexit line and the SCons benefiting from tactical voting then.
Not all Scottish Leavers are Unionists, and not all Scottish Unionists are Leavers. Far from it.0 -
Of course it would not be. Why would the Conservatives do that?Gallowgate said:
That’s the pact.beentheredonethat said:
No. How do you get to that from my question?Gallowgate said:
You really think the Tories will stand aside in vast swathes of Northern seats?beentheredonethat said:
What makes you believe it hasn’t been done already?Gallowgate said:Looking at Twitter, Brexit Party supporters are going to be very disappointed when Boris doesn’t pick up the phone to Farage to organise an electoral pact.
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He can hack it. He hacked it by expelling those who refused to honour our commitments.Scott_P said:
He had a majority.Philip_Thompson said:Boris will spend the next couple of months shouting from the rooftops this is why he needs a majority
He threw it away and shut down Parliament.
He was in charge.
If he can't hack it, elect someone who can...
Now the public has a choice. If they want the likes of Boles, Grieves and the rest of the wets they can vote for the Lib Dems or whoever else they stand for.
If the public wants to leave they can vote for the Conservatives.
Either way this looks like getting resolved in the ballot box which is probably the healthiest method for everyone concerned. But at the very least if people vote Conservative they know we are leaving, not electing people like Boles, Soubry, Grieve etc who think they are better than the voters and the whip.0 -
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
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It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:0 -
He is in a different league altogether. His preening self regard is much more reminiscent of Bercow than of Cameron and Johnson.DecrepitJohnL said:Jacob Rees-Mogg is posh and condescending. Everyone knows that so what is the point of attacking him for being posh and condescending? It did not work against Boris and did not work against Cameron. That's his shtick; it is priced in.
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The 10 year trend of mid term polls being completely wrong points to laying NOM I thinkAlastairMeeks said:Oddly, Conservative majority has drifted out quite sharply this morning. It was last matched at 2.98.
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But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?
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Absolutely! How is this not blindingly obvious?noneoftheabove said:
It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:
Post election Boris will have a much more loyal party left behind. Or he loses in which case the headache isn't his. Either way he's gotten rid of the rotten apples.0 -
I said this earlier:nico67 said:Surely Labour should only accept a general election once no deal cannot happen on 31 st October .
That would mean Bozo has broken his promise and keeps the Brexit Party taking votes from the Tories .
An election before then could still deliver a no deal if the Tories get a majority .
The one thing that has changed though is the removal of the whip from the rebels . If you’ve got nothing left to lose then more of those rebels might back a VONC .
My ideal Christmas present:
Lab refuses to approve a GE until after 31st as only way of making sure govt do not renege on law. Nov 4th, Lab VoNC govt in knowledge deadline is gone and they have until whenever to worry about no deal. Either Labour led gov forms and immediately calls a GE or 14 days go by, no govt forms, GE is called. The Thursday 6 weeks after that 14 days? Boxing day. Good GE day: people already off work (sorry council workers who have to do the count), families are together so intergenerational discussion on which direction the country should go, New Year, New Govt, start 2020 tabula rasa (yeah, right).0 -
😆Theuniondivvie said:
I guess the groaners would be the 44% of those who don't think there should be a referendum in the next 5 years as opposed to the 45% that do? It's odd that when Unionists are asked to facilitate this referendum that'll kill off indy for evvah, it's always no, no, no.Burgessian said:
The Quebec example is more than a straw. Talk of a second IndyRef already elicits a huge groan among many. A third would be unconscionable. It will be do or die for the SNP.Theuniondivvie said:
As alluded to previously Quebec is one of the several straws to which Unionists cling. Obviously the '2nd ref killed the Nats stone dead' schtick is comforting to the fearful, but I can't really see the comparison with regard to history, culture, politics or constitution to name but four.noneoftheabove said:
I am exhausted trying to keep up with UK politics so dont particularly follow Scottish specific politics but from a mathematical angle 49% is not a problem for a separatist party, particularly when the direction of travel is in their favour.Byronic said:noneoftheabove said:
For a separatist party 49% is fine, it is well within the margin of error and they only need to win one referendum whereas unionists need to win every referendum.HYUFD said:Agree though that it is bad news for the SNP that despite Brexit 51% of Scottish voters would still vote to stay in the UK
Except that they only get one referendum a generation, and if they lose two the cause dies out, possibly forever. Cf Quebec.
I don’t think there will be a vote in Scotland for 10 years or more. Brexit is too horrific an example of what happens if you try to enact dramatic constitutional change on a divided country, on the back of a plebiscite. Memories of it will need to fade before the Nats can or will try again
The idea that Scotland is going to recoil from indy because English politicians (with even their Scottish satraps looking on aghast) have made an almighty fuckup of Brexit is an interesting one. If nothing else it provides a useful template for what not to do.
Of course you know when Unionists are bleating about the wording of the question for this second referendum that's definitely, definitely not going to happen that the game's a bogey (or an IDS as it shall henceforth be known).0 -
An election on October 14/15 is for the birds, isn't it? It's perfectly plausible that the next election will result in another hung parliament (2 of the last 3 have been), in which case there won't be a functioning PM for that oh-so-important EU council on the 18th.nichomar said:
Punters having seen Johnson last night thinking he is going to trash it come the election and the realization if the opposition plays it right the election is after 31/10Gallowgate said:
Private polls looking gloomy?AlastairMeeks said:Oddly, Conservative majority has drifted out quite sharply this morning. It was last matched at 2.98.
Still, I'm sure it's all been wargamed out.0 -
He had no working majority, he had a fake one.Beibheirli_C said:
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
First step to fix a problem is to admit you have a problem. Now he knows what his true support is and can work to get a real working majority.0 -
Or basic manners, if someone was doing that in a meeting I was leading they would be asked to leave. And leave would mean leave.isam said:
Inverse snobberry. So distastefulScott_P said:Stark_Dawning said:It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1169177120515481600Slackbladder said:I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.0 -
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Exactly.beentheredonethat said:
Of course it would not be. Why would the Conservatives do that?Gallowgate said:
That’s the pact.beentheredonethat said:
No. How do you get to that from my question?Gallowgate said:
You really think the Tories will stand aside in vast swathes of Northern seats?beentheredonethat said:
What makes you believe it hasn’t been done already?Gallowgate said:Looking at Twitter, Brexit Party supporters are going to be very disappointed when Boris doesn’t pick up the phone to Farage to organise an electoral pact.
What is the Brexit Party play here?
Boris wont commit to ‘no deal’ at all costs so their only option is to stand.
Their supporters on Twitter want a pact where the Tories stand aside in Northern Leave seats. It’s not going to happen.0 -
Don't believe in a pre-ordained destiny. We can make a reasonable stab at what's going to happen, given what we know (See Rumsfeld) but, again see Rumsfeld, there are always unknown unknowns. Natural events, for example.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a destiny we are going to and they can decide if they want to be a part of that or not. If not its a free country but get off the train.0 -
So the next election will be:-
BXP - leave europe now (without a deal)
Tory - leave europe now (with a deal if europe blinks (and they won't) so without a deal)
Labour - renegotiate and a second referendum
Lib Dems - revoke
SNP revoke
Suddenly the Labour policy everyone has hated for a year is starting to look sane... Corbyn really is a lucky general.
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No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?0 -
How do you expect the EU to ratify any agreement before Oct 31?Philip_Thompson said:
No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?0 -
a wide definition of sanityeek said:So the next election will be:-
BXP - leave europe now (without a deal)
Tory - leave europe now (with a deal if europe blinks (and they won't) so without a deal)
Labour - renegotiate and a second referendum
Lib Dems - revoke
SNP revoke
Suddenly the Labour policy everyone has hated for a year is starting to look sane... Corbyn really is a lucky general.0 -
Stupid autocorrect. It was meant to be destination [hence get off the train if they don't like the destination].OldKingCole said:
Don't believe in a pre-ordained destiny. We can make a reasonable stab at what's going to happen, given what we know (See Rumsfeld) but, again see Rumsfeld, there are always unknown unknowns. Natural events, for example.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a destiny we are going to and they can decide if they want to be a part of that or not. If not its a free country but get off the train.0 -
Some very good cricket here. English bowling is excellent 13-10
-
Most people want it over and done with one way or the other in my experience. Labours policy is the worst for themeek said:So the next election will be:-
BXP - leave europe now (without a deal)
Tory - leave europe now (with a deal if europe blinks (and they won't) so without a deal)
Labour - renegotiate and a second referendum
Lib Dems - revoke
SNP revoke
Suddenly the Labour policy everyone has hated for a year is starting to look sane... Corbyn really is a lucky general.0 -
Johnson has Lost control of Brexit.
Johnson has Lost control of his Party.
Johnson has Lost control of the House.
Johnson has lost control of the election date.
Johnson has lost many One Nation Tory MPs and Voters
All on day 1.
HYUFD great day for Johnson!!0 -
So Johnson is currently lying about the EU's readiness to negotiate?Philip_Thompson said:
No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?
0 -
A vote in Council on the 17th followed by a vote in Parliament in the fortnight afterwards. Job done.Gallowgate said:
How do you expect the EU to ratify any agreement before Oct 31?Philip_Thompson said:
No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?0 -
Sounds like a suspiciously Corbyn-type search for purity, even if, or maybe preferably in opposition.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! How is this not blindingly obvious?noneoftheabove said:
It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:
Post election Boris will have a much more loyal party left behind. Or he loses in which case the headache isn't his. Either way he's gotten rid of the rotten apples.1 -
No. Talks are already underway but we aren't at the concrete stage yet.SouthamObserver said:
So Johnson is currently lying about the EU's readiness to negotiate?Philip_Thompson said:
No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?0 -
You have no idea what concrete proposals mean, do you? It takes months or years to sort out highly complex interactions. You simply cannot wait until 2 or 3 days before a meeting and go in there vaguely waving your hands in the air. That is what you do for ideas. Concrete proposals are several orders of magnitude more work.Philip_Thompson said:
No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?
1 -
Good luck with that.Philip_Thompson said:
A vote in Council on the 17th followed by a vote in Parliament in the fortnight afterwards. Job done.Gallowgate said:
How do you expect the EU to ratify any agreement before Oct 31?Philip_Thompson said:
No need to put forward concrete proposals yet. The time to do so is in the days or hours before the EU Council Meeting when they want a deal and are ready to move.SouthamObserver said:
But isn't the government line the EU is ready to negotiate and are beginning to move?Charles said:
At the EU is saying no to any proposalPeter_the_Punter said:
But TP, the Governemt is not trying to find a Deal. We know that. The cat is out of the bag.Tissue_Price said:
Sure, that's normal most of the time. But "being prepared to tolerate No Deal, if no deal can be found" is plainly going to be the party's fundamental policy at the imminent GE and if MPs cannot - in good conscience - support that, then they should probably not be candidates for the party.edmundintokyo said:
Parties have positions and not all their MPs believe in them, that's normal. The Tories still have *lots* of MPs who don't believe in No Deal but didn't vote with the opposition on that particular motion.Tissue_Price said:
Was it? I regret what happened yesterday and the probable loss of many dedicated Conservative MPs (and, indeed, @Big_G_NorthWales 's resignation this morning) but Tom McTague has a point here:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1168793646071726081
There’s no point in throwing resources at it until they are willing to negotiate
Which cioncrete proposals put forward by the government has the EU said No to?0 -
Don't think you are right about Nicola, the party will stay ultra-loyal to her whatever. There is no plausible alternative leader, for one thing. And I still think she is torn about a referendum - the whole argument about being careful about what you wish for.malcolmg said:
It was commentators that said it needed 60% not the Government, they are getting more popular after 12 years not less, they have NO opposition, it is nothing like Quebec where Canada gave them powers and money and kept their promises. There is no conundrum for Sturgeon , she will be out if she does not have a referendum.Burgessian said:
This is the SNP conundrum which is made more acute by the surprising fact that "Yes" has failed to break through the 50% barrier so far. This really ought to be peak polling for them. If they lose a second IndyRef its all over for them. Sturgeon, for all the rhetoric, is genuinely torn.HYUFD said:
No, for a separatist party 49% for independence excuding Don't Knows is bad news.noneoftheabove said:
For a separatist party 49% is fine, it is well within the margin of error and they only need to win one referendum whereas unionists need to win every referendum.HYUFD said:Agree though that it is bad news for the SNP that despite Brexit 51% of Scottish voters would still vote to stay in the UK
In Quebec in 1995 the pro independence side had a narrow lead in final polls excluding Don't Knows in their second independence referendum but No won as Don't Knows went No and No won 51% to 49%.
Quebec has never had another independence referendum again and is now firmly in Canada with devomax
It would be "do or die" as there will certainly not be a third referendum as Scotland will turn its back on the subject as the Quebecois did, and the Nats will start suffering from the effects of long-term incumbency at Holyrood. And we haven't had the Salmond trial yet.
My recollection is that there was talk of a precondition of a second IndyRef being Yes polling in the region of 60% in order to demonstrate the "settled will". We don't seem to be quite there yet.
I also think you may be under-estimating "referendum fatigue" up here.0 -
Also makes the 'he's a tall bloke trying to listen to the speaker' brigade look like diddies.StuartDickson said:
Negates 100% of the sympathy he was getting on here last night (much of it from opponents).Scott_P said:Stark_Dawning said:It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1169177120515481600Slackbladder said:I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.0 -
My parents are pretty clued up, middle class, university educated, politically engaged people. But I had to explain the FTPA to them as recently as Sunday. I think there is a mistaken consensus out there that the PM still calls elections. Last time it happened it was certainly spun as May's decision to do so - the famous Daily Mail "Crush the Sabateurs" cover described it as her "stunning move". I think making this mud stick to the opposition will be difficult.anothernick said:
1 Most voters have never heard of the FTPA - they think the PM calls electionseristdoof said:
Floating voters this week will still be floating voters at the start of the election campaign, when the "scared of an election" slogan will be laughable.GIN1138 said:
Not committed Lab and Lib-Dem but most voters are floaters... And they'll take a dim view.Gallowgate said:Do Brexiteers really think Lib Dem or Labour voters will say: “I was going to vote for LibDem/Labour but now because I think they’re scared of an election I’m going to vote for Boris”??
Give your heads a shake.
Wait for Saturday night's polls.
2 If there is an election Johnson will get the praise/blame for bringing it about
3 Elections called unexpectedly early do not usually go well for governments - 2017, Feb 1974, 1970 and 1951 come to mind. Even Oct 1974 produced a much lower Labour majority than was expected at the start of the campaign. 1966 is the only exception
4 Johnson is in a uniquely weak position, vulnerable to attacks from right and left, his party is imploding and it is not at all clear that it is any fit state to fight the ground war that is crucial in marginal contests.0 -
Or chooses to ignore it and use the lie as a get out of jail cardeek said:
All that shows is Masterton can't identify a known liar lying to him.AlastairMeeks said:
In fairness to him, he did as always take the time to set out his reasons in detail.Theuniondivvie said:
That's what's slightly odd, if Masterton had shown a bit of spine it might have given him a ghost of a chance of keeping his seat (admittedly extremely ghostly).Pulpstar said:
Masterton is likely to lose his seat in a GE. Rest are in safe seats.eek said:
Enough rebelled yesterday to win. The rest can rebel on another day.Benpointer said:Anyone else wondering why there were six signatories to Hammond's 'No to No Deal' letter who didn't rebel yesterday?
IIUIC they were:
* Alberto Costa
* Simon Hoare
* David Lidington
* Paul Masterton
* Caroline Spelman
* Tom Tugendhat
What a bunch of hypocrites!
https://twitter.com/PM4EastRen/status/1168960672786472961
As have others in the cowardy-custard camp:
https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/11691396437381447680 -
Yes, that's my view. I assume that he will mostly be successful in electing MPs loyal to Johnson and no deal in the seats currently held by the 21+ rebels - Rushcliffe, Bracknell, etc, though many on the list look vulnerable to the Lib Dems or Labour - Putney, Winchester, Wimbledon, Watford, Romsey and Southampton North.Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
From that point of view the greater the number of rebels flushed out now, when they can be deselected ahead of a general election, the better. Then there will be more ideological zealots, like Steve Baker, or dead-eyed careerists, like Matt Hancock, to replace them and march obediently through the lobby.
The electorate can be fickle, though, it may not go as planned, but so far I would say they would view it as job done.0 -
Agree about auto-correct being a pain. 'Destination' makes much more sense.Philip_Thompson said:
Stupid autocorrect. It was meant to be destination [hence get off the train if they don't like the destination].OldKingCole said:
Don't believe in a pre-ordained destiny. We can make a reasonable stab at what's going to happen, given what we know (See Rumsfeld) but, again see Rumsfeld, there are always unknown unknowns. Natural events, for example.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a destiny we are going to and they can decide if they want to be a part of that or not. If not its a free country but get off the train.
We're back to agreeing again!0 -
Having had years of telling people to fk off and join UKIP the Conservatives have changed tack and are telling people to fk off and join the LDs.TOPPING said:
Sounds like a suspiciously Corbyn-type search for purity, even if, or maybe preferably in opposition.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! How is this not blindingly obvious?noneoftheabove said:
It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:
Post election Boris will have a much more loyal party left behind. Or he loses in which case the headache isn't his. Either way he's gotten rid of the rotten apples.
really they need every vote they can get.0 -
Because its achieved they outcome they (Boris and Cummings wanted)Beibheirli_C said:
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
At any point from Boris becoming leader to yesterday's vote they could have dialled back the rhetoric and started compromise.
Instead they ratched it up and even had Cummings berating the Remainer delegation when they went to meet Boris yesterday.
Given then way they have played this you have to fink its gone entirely to as expected and to plan - which makes it a success if not a victory?0 -
Leave doesn’t mean leave, we know that!noneoftheabove said:
Or basic manners, if someone was doing that in a meeting I was leading they would be asked to leave. And leave would mean leave.isam said:
Inverse snobberry. So distastefulScott_P said:Stark_Dawning said:It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1169177120515481600Slackbladder said:I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.
There are instances of bad manners every single time the commons is in session - interrupting, being drunk, booing & jeering, talking over someone, falling asleep.
JRM is porn for middle class, middle aged wannabe rebels because it makes them feel like they’re at Uni again, but in general working class people quite like an eccentric posho0 -
I think that's right. What they have also counted on, though, is that Labour would back an immediate election. This is where the plan could fall down.noneoftheabove said:
It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:
0 -
I think there are more defections to come when no deal is forthcoming after Eu summitBeibheirli_C said:
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.0 -
The Labour position isnt great, borderline sane perhaps. Realistically neither they nor the EU are going to put much effort into coming up with a great deal if they both prefer remain and are going to put it to a deal vs remain referendum!eek said:So the next election will be:-
BXP - leave europe now (without a deal)
Tory - leave europe now (with a deal if europe blinks (and they won't) so without a deal)
Labour - renegotiate and a second referendum
Lib Dems - revoke
SNP revoke
Suddenly the Labour policy everyone has hated for a year is starting to look sane... Corbyn really is a lucky general.
T May deal vs remain would make more sense. Or ask an all party commission of leavers to lead the negotiations with the EU and come up with a platform vs remain.
Starmer leading the negotiations when he has already said whatever he comes up with he will then support remain is not a serious policy but a waste of time.0 -
He had no working majority, he had a fake one - now he has a big minority and it is possible that Corbyn might cobble together a bigger grouping for temporary purposes. He would have a majority of 5 IIRC...Philip_Thompson said:
He had no working majority, he had a fake one.Beibheirli_C said:
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
First step to fix a problem is to admit you have a problem. Now he knows what his true support is and can work to get a real working majority.0 -
One better than Mr Johnson's government in ParliamentBig_G_NorthWales said:1 for 1
0 -
So *that's* how winning elections work??!!Alanbrooke said:
Having had years of telling people to fk off and join UKIP the Conservatives have changed tack and are telling people to fk off and join the LDs.TOPPING said:
Sounds like a suspiciously Corbyn-type search for purity, even if, or maybe preferably in opposition.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! How is this not blindingly obvious?noneoftheabove said:
It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:
Post election Boris will have a much more loyal party left behind. Or he loses in which case the headache isn't his. Either way he's gotten rid of the rotten apples.
really they need every vote they can get.0 -
Sorry. I am just trying to get into the mood of the moment, where black is white, good is bad, etc....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
It was a matter of confidence, the PM said so before the vote.kamski said:
Agree, the conservatives can withdraw the whip from whoever they want for whatever reason (just as May could, maybe should, have withdrawn the whip from Johnson and others when they voted against her government's most important bill). I'm just objecting to the argument that this has to happen to rebels on this occasion because the bill in parliament was "a matter of confidence".Charles said:
Important to distinguish between party and governmentkamski said:
if it was in any sense a "matter of confidence" then the Prime Minister would immediately resign having lost the vote.Charles said:
Because if he votes against the party on a matter of confidence then he has chosen his path.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1169144620258910208Jonathan said:You get the feeling that the Tory party will wake up at some point realising what the hell it has done to itself. The only question is will it be too late to do anything about it.
Boris said. I am leader of the party. This is my policy. If you don’t agree then there’s the door
He won a clear majority of Tory MPs.
Those that don’t support the leadership on this fundamental policy can exit stage left
And the idea the PM resigns following losing a vote of confidence is a total myth. Tradition is an election following a loss of confidence and under the terms of the FTPA the PM is tabling an election motion.0 -
When folk start going on about 'a destiny (singular) we are going to', that's never worrying, not in the slightest.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a destiny we are going to and they can decide if they want to be a part of that or not. If not its a free country but get off the train.0 -
They don't like Jeremy Corbyn.isam said:
Leave doesn’t mean leave, we know that!noneoftheabove said:
Or basic manners, if someone was doing that in a meeting I was leading they would be asked to leave. And leave would mean leave.isam said:
Inverse snobberry. So distastefulScott_P said:Stark_Dawning said:It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1169177120515481600Slackbladder said:I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.
There are instances of bad manners every single time the commons is in session - interrupting, being drunk, booing & jeering, talking over someone, falling asleep.
JRM is porn for middle class, middle aged wannabe rebels because it makes them feel like they’re at Uni again, but in general working class people quite like an eccentric posho
It is true, though, that there has always been a strong tradition of deference within the working class - hence the working class Tory vote. Alf Garnett would love JRM.
0 -
It is the Black Knight strategy. The Holy Grail is the political parable of our times...Beibheirli_C said:
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs0 -
The European Parliament seems to be in session from Oct 21st to 24th, don't know how long they need or how much flexibility they have to say "drop everything, we're doing the brexit".Gallowgate said:
How do you expect the EU to ratify any agreement before Oct 31?
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sed/doc/news/lookingaheadagenda/21361/Cal2019_en.pdf0 -
When we didn’t leave in March, Johnson said it wasn’t the fault of MPs but because May was “chicken”. If parliament makes him stay in office to request an extension, the same will be said about him.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/24/theresa-mays-government-chicken-has-bottled-brexit-boris-johnson/0 -
It is, isn't it?Foxy said:
It is the Black Knight strategy. The Holy Grail is the political parable of our times...Beibheirli_C said:
Please explain to me how moving from a working majority of 1 to -44 is a victory?Philip_Thompson said:
Wasn't the consensus here that Boris and Cummings were trying to flush out the rebels and force them to act sooner rather than later?Scott_P said:
Seems like it worked.
https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs
0 -
Clarity is good.Beibheirli_C said:
Sorry. I am just trying to get into the mood of the moment, where black is white, good is bad, etc....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything like that.Beibheirli_C said:
Burn them!!!! BURN THE WITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Same as the MPs who voted Remain. They decide if they can live with a policy of leaving 31 Oct do or die, or not.Scott_P said:
Purge the impure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All MPs for the government party need to be able to implement the government's number one policy. If they can't then we need an election and the new government's majority should be able to do so. No point the government keeping MPs [however long standing] who won't implement its policies.0 -
When BoZo's OODA loop of calling an election is scuppered by prorogation, how are the cultists going to spin that as Cummings genius?0
-
I am not privy to any of this but it would seem to me that a certain small number of leave/labour seats would be offered. As I have said for quite some time, it would be essentially a coupon election with candidates endorsed under a common banner. The problem for the remain bloc is there is little possibility of unity as neither of the larger parties (or SNP in Scotland) would consent to losing such a large potential proportion of seats to their rivals in opposition whereas the BXP have nothing to lose electorally and plenty to gain.Gallowgate said:
Exactly.beentheredonethat said:
Of course it would not be. Why would the Conservatives do that?Gallowgate said:
That’s the pact.beentheredonethat said:
No. How do you get to that from my question?Gallowgate said:
You really think the Tories will stand aside in vast swathes of Northern seats?beentheredonethat said:
What makes you believe it hasn’t been done already?Gallowgate said:Looking at Twitter, Brexit Party supporters are going to be very disappointed when Boris doesn’t pick up the phone to Farage to organise an electoral pact.
What is the Brexit Party play here?
Boris wont commit to ‘no deal’ at all costs so their only option is to stand.
Their supporters on Twitter want a pact where the Tories stand aside in Northern Leave seats. It’s not going to happen.
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1955 - almost 18 months early - govt increased majorityanothernick said:
1 Most voters have never heard of the FTPA - they think the PM calls electionseristdoof said:
Floating voters this week will still be floating voters at the start of the election campaign, when the "scared of an election" slogan will be laughable.GIN1138 said:
Not committed Lab and Lib-Dem but most voters are floaters... And they'll take a dim view.Gallowgate said:Do Brexiteers really think Lib Dem or Labour voters will say: “I was going to vote for LibDem/Labour but now because I think they’re scared of an election I’m going to vote for Boris”??
Give your heads a shake.
Wait for Saturday night's polls.
2 If there is an election Johnson will get the praise/blame for bringing it about
3 Elections called unexpectedly early do not usually go well for governments - 2017, Feb 1974, 1970 and 1951 come to mind. Even Oct 1974 produced a much lower Labour majority than was expected at the start of the campaign. 1966 is the only exception
4 Johnson is in a uniquely weak position, vulnerable to attacks from right and left, his party is imploding and it is not at all clear that it is any fit state to fight the ground war that is crucial in marginal contests.
1983 - a year early - govt landslide
1987 - a year early - govt landslide
2001 - a year early - govt landslide
2005 - a year early - govt majority ca 600 -
Corbyn's superpower is supporting policies that look crazy at the time but which everyone agrees with 10-15 years later. Trying to find the middle ground on Brexit may well be part of that pattern.eek said:So the next election will be:-
BXP - leave europe now (without a deal)
Tory - leave europe now (with a deal if europe blinks (and they won't) so without a deal)
Labour - renegotiate and a second referendum
Lib Dems - revoke
SNP revoke
Suddenly the Labour policy everyone has hated for a year is starting to look sane... Corbyn really is a lucky general.0 -
The party is absolutely not loyal to Sturgeon no matter what. About 20% would declare UDI if given the chance. And that includes MPs and MSPs, not just membership.Burgessian said:
Don't think you are right about Nicola, the party will stay ultra-loyal to her whatever. There is no plausible alternative leader, for one thing. And I still think she is torn about a referendum - the whole argument about being careful about what you wish for.malcolmg said:
It was commentators that said it needed 60% not the Government, they are getting more popular after 12 years not less, they have NO opposition, it is nothing like Quebec where Canada gave them powers and money and kept their promises. There is no conundrum for Sturgeon , she will be out if she does not have a referendum.Burgessian said:
This is the SNP conundrum which is made more acute by the surprising fact that "Yes" has failed to break through the 50% barrier so far. This really ought to be peak polling for them. If they lose a second IndyRef its all over for them. Sturgeon, for all the rhetoric, is genuinely torn.HYUFD said:
No, for a separatist party 49% for independence excuding Don't Knows is bad news.noneoftheabove said:
For a separatist party 49% is fine, it is well within the margin of error and they only need to win one referendum whereas unionists need to win every referendum.HYUFD said:Agree though that it is bad news for the SNP that despite Brexit 51% of Scottish voters would still vote to stay in the UK
In Quebec in 1995 the pro independence side had a narrow lead in final polls excluding Don't Knows in their second independence referendum but No won as Don't Knows went No and No won 51% to 49%.
Quebec has never had another independence referendum again and is now firmly in Canada with devomax
It would be "do or die" as there will certainly not be a third referendum as Scotland will turn its back on the subject as the Quebecois did, and the Nats will start suffering from the effects of long-term incumbency at Holyrood. And we haven't had the Salmond trial yet.
My recollection is that there was talk of a precondition of a second IndyRef being Yes polling in the region of 60% in order to demonstrate the "settled will". We don't seem to be quite there yet.
I also think you may be under-estimating "referendum fatigue" up here.0 -
Just imagine if someone had written that in the Graun, Paul Embery would have a tweet prolapse.isam said:but in general working class people quite like an eccentric posho
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They’ll blame Nikki Da Costa.Scott_P said:When BoZo's OODA loop of calling an election is scuppered by prorogation, how are the cultists going to spin that as Cummings genius?
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There’s clearly a debate going on in Labour, but Corbyn seems more keen than his Shadow Ministers. I guess we’ll find out during and after PMQs when Corbyn and Milne speak.0
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Just because a crazy plan "works" does not make it brilliant. Boris has neutered his party and handed control of his politcal destiny to Corbyn. That is not brilliant, it is a massive gamble.GIN1138 said:Because its achieved they outcome they (Boris and Cummings wanted)
At any point from Boris becoming leader to yesterday's vote they could have dialled back the rhetoric and started compromise.
Instead they ratched it up and even had Cummings berating the Remainer delegation when they went to meet Boris yesterday.
Given then way they have played this you have to fink its gone entirely to as expected and to plan - which makes it a success if not a victory?
It might be ballsy, but it is not genius.0 -
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So would Del BoySouthamObserver said:
They don't like Jeremy Corbyn.isam said:
Leave doesn’t mean leave, we know that!noneoftheabove said:
Or basic manners, if someone was doing that in a meeting I was leading they would be asked to leave. And leave would mean leave.isam said:
Inverse snobberry. So distastefulScott_P said:Stark_Dawning said:It looks worse the more I see of it. Last night I foolishly accepted the spin from some on here who said he was merely pressing his ear against an audio speaker, which is palpable nonsense. The man clearly intended to demonstrate beyond all doubt that a chap of his breeding can do what the hell he likes and the riff-raff would do well to take note.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1169177120515481600Slackbladder said:I think the final which was the final straw for me last night was JRM. His high and snobby attitude and speech might be endearing in another place, but here, where actual jobs and economies matter it was misplaced and out of order.
I'm actually wondering if a period of Corbyn government, as disasterous as it would be in some areas wouldn't now be whats at least required, if certainly not desired.
There are instances of bad manners every single time the commons is in session - interrupting, being drunk, booing & jeering, talking over someone, falling asleep.
JRM is porn for middle class, middle aged wannabe rebels because it makes them feel like they’re at Uni again, but in general working class people quite like an eccentric posho
It is true, though, that there has always been a strong tradition of deference within the working class - hence the working class Tory vote. Alf Garnett would love JRM.0 -
Yes, so it's over to the electorate. Do they prefer the Brexit-cult-like purity of the Conservative Party, the Jeremy-cult-like purity of the Labour Party, the Bollocks-to-Brexit-cult-like purity of the Liberal Democrats, the more-cult-like-than-thou-Brexit-cult-like purity of the Brexit Party, the Petty-Nationalism-cult-like purity of the Naitonalist Parties, the Global-Warming-Doomsday-cult-like purity of the Green Party (Hi! That's me!) or... something else?TOPPING said:
Sounds like a suspiciously Corbyn-type search for purity, even if, or maybe preferably in opposition.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! How is this not blindingly obvious?noneoftheabove said:
It seems very obvious that they wanted this rebellion, and wanted it to be big. They have spent the last two weeks provoking it, in manners that were never going to actually lead to no deal.CarlottaVance said:
Post election Boris will have a much more loyal party left behind. Or he loses in which case the headache isn't his. Either way he's gotten rid of the rotten apples.
Time for Jury Team to give it another go?0 -
Should have a sweepstake on which of the Brain Trust gets publicly sacrificed firstwilliamglenn said:They’ll blame Nikki Da Costa.
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