Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Because there are in some cases decades-long structures dedicated to addressing these issues. Structures to address no deal Brexit are there none. Or few. And those that there may be are headed by Stephen Barclay god help us.
what if the decades long structurea are part iof the problem ?
Diesel fumes? Ongoing multi-decadal research. Poor health care - likewise. What part of these structures are problematic?
David, your contributions to this site are one of the main reasons for coming here. However, on this occasion, I do not have very much sympathy for you.
When Theresa May became leader and PM she said that "no deal is better than a bad deal". You did not resign then. Furthermore, taking as fact an unattributed line in a newspaper to support your dislike for the current leader and PM is not something I would associate with a mind as sharp as yours.
I feel the same way towards pro-EU Tories as I do to moderate Labour members. You tolerated people in your party who held views that were incompatible with your own. You cannot complain when they take power. To be fair at least you have left the party rather than sniping as many moderate Labour MPs do. And given your talents I'd suggest that you would very much be an asset to another party.
I feel this is an unfair criticism as you are criticising when Mr Herdson left. The decision to leave an organisation is binary but the reasons behid it are on a continuum. Most people will remain a member for quite a while as that organisation changes, although they would not join given the current situation. Making the choice to leave is not an easy one, especially after having held a relatively importanat role as Mr Herdson has.
I would also point out that current polling clearly shows the Tories fate depends on delivering Brexit, if the Tories extend again they will be replaced by a populist Brexit Party as the main party of the right and fall to third.
The Tories ARE the Brexit party. The entryists and loonies have seen to that. In my opinion, Farage's Brexit Party simply lacked the courage to call themselves The Brownshirt Party
If the moderate One Nation types left the "Conservative" Party and formed a centre-right grouping, I would seriously consider voting for them expecially if they were pro-EU, but the current fascists masquerading as government? Never.
Mr. Brooke, I'd suggest the country being led by a man who marches under Stalin banners would not be an improvement.
I'd also ask again what those MPs so aghast that the consequences of their actions are approaching intend to do. Suppose Johnson actually brought back May's deal. Would they back it?
But there's the thing, Morris - I detest the far left as much as the next person, and after a lifetime in London politics have probably seen more of them close up than most PB'ers.
But I'd be willing to vote for a Corbynite now if it were the only way in my seat to stop these crazed Tories from destroying everything around them. Just the same as I once voted for Bozo (2nd pref) in order to stop mad Ken from being our Mayor.
Are you my Doppelganger?
I too have had that experience in London and voted for Johnson because of Ken.
Yes, I would also vote Corbyn if it helped to stop the madness but in my current constituency it probably makes more sense to vote LD.
The EU Referendum was advisory and not binding and most certainly it did not authorise a "no deal Brexit". Why do some posters on this forum insist for democracy's sake the result of this 3 year old event must be respected? If it had been binding the High Court would have ruled it to be invalid because of the magnitude of the electoral law violations and the closeness of the result.
Democracy surely allows people to change their minds? The only way out of the current impasse is to have a second fairly contested "Peoples Vote" which is binding so we can all move on.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.
He raises a fair point - there are medicine shortages unrelated to Brexit. The NHS declines to provide certain care or medicines regularly.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
He doesn’t raise a fair point. Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.
His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.
One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Because there are in some cases decades-long structures dedicated to addressing these issues. Structures to address no deal Brexit are there none. Or few. And those that there may be are headed by Stephen Barclay god help us.
what if the decades long structurea are part iof the problem ?
Diesel fumes? Ongoing multi-decadal research. Poor health care - likewise. What part of these structures are problematic?
Actually Id say the political structures, which imo are no longer meeting needs. And where the politics goes the money follows.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
They won't the Brexit Party will be left with the 12% who voted UKIP in 2015 at most and the Tories will be over 30% after delivering Brexit.
If the Tories extend again and refuse to deliver Brexit the Brexit Party will be over 30% and the Tories back to the 9% they got in the European Parliament elections
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Because there are in some cases decades-long structures dedicated to addressing these issues. Structures to address no deal Brexit are there none. Or few. And those that there may be are headed by Stephen Barclay god help us.
what if the decades long structurea are part iof the problem ?
Diesel fumes? Ongoing multi-decadal research. Poor health care - likewise. What part of these structures are problematic?
Actually Id say the political structures, which imo are no longer meeting needs. And where the politics goes the money follows.
Oh I see it's the entire Western liberal capitalist system you dislike. Gotit. Well, comrade, at least now you have options for its overthrow.
The only political parties I have ever been in was the SDP and, briefly, the Lib Dems after the amalgamation. They seem a somewhat archaic concept to me, largely undemocratic, generally far more extreme than those who actually vote for them and subject to personality cults.
These deficiencies are not enhanced by the loss of the likes of Richard Nabavi, David Herdson, Big G or TSE. If political parties are to contribute to the running of the country sensible members (shoe wear apart, obviously) are essential to keep a grip on extremest tendencies. The likes of Joff dropping out of Labour membership is another example of the same problem.
Grass roots and activist bases have been the best defence of the established parties to populists like Farage and have generally been very successful in any election that actually counts as the recent by election showed once again. If those roots die and the activists depart our politics will become ever more febrile.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.
He raises a fair point - there are medicine shortages unrelated to Brexit. The NHS declines to provide certain care or medicines regularly.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
He doesn’t raise a fair point. Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.
His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.
One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
David, your contributions to this site are one of the main reasons for coming here. However, on this occasion, I do not have very much sympathy for you.
When Theresa May became leader and PM she said that "no deal is better than a bad deal". You did not resign then. Furthermore, taking as fact an unattributed line in a newspaper to support your dislike for the current leader and PM is not something I would associate with a mind as sharp as yours.
I feel the same way towards pro-EU Tories as I do to moderate Labour members. You tolerated people in your party who held views that were incompatible with your own. You cannot complain when they take power. To be fair at least you have left the party rather than sniping as many moderate Labour MPs do. And given your talents I'd suggest that you would very much be an asset to another party.
I feel this is an unfair criticism as you are criticising when Mr Herdson left. The decision to leave an organisation is binary but the reasons behid it are on a continuum. Most people will remain a member for quite a while as that organisation changes, although they would not join given the current situation. Making the choice to leave is not an easy one, especially after having held a relatively importanat role as Mr Herdson has.
I very much respect David's decision and his reply to me is very fair. I think what I struggle with is that to my mind, this was inevitable. David mentions that it is important to win and that's why Boris is PM. The Euros showed that the Tories are utterly f***** without their Brexit supporting voters.
I appreciate that it must be galling for those on the opposite side of the debate to see the ERG rewarded for not voting for May's deal. But that's politics, I am afraid. It is not a fair business.
On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.
Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
You’ve left too?
Yes.
See my post at 6:50.
Woah. I missed that.
Shame. Hope you come back soon.
So do I.
Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.
No, extending Article 50 puts us on course to put Corbyn in No 10 and while we might rejoin the single market eventually we will not rejoin the EU and Euro
Brexit has created a highly motivated pro-EU segment of the electorate. Even if the leavers manage to work out how to leave we'll be rejoining. I think we'll probably sign up for the Euro as well. When the dust settles I think even the Conservatives will come round.
Over 40% of voters back No Deal, barely a third at most back joining the Euro even with 48% having voted Remain. If the Euro was a requirement of rejoining the EU it is guaranteed we would never rejoin, when even Sweden and Denmark voted against joining the Euro in referendums they have held on it you can guarantee we would too.
Had the Euro been a requirement of staying in the EU I would have voted Leave not Remain
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Because there y god help us.
what if the decades long structurea are part iof the problem ?
Diesel fumes? Ongoing multi-decadal research. Poor health care - likewise. What part of these structures are problematic?
Actually Id say the political structures, which imo are no longer meeting needs. And where the politics goes the money follows.
Oh I see it's the entire Western liberal capitalist system you dislike. Gotit. Well, comrade, at least now you have options for its overthrow.
rolls eyes
youre off on a Brexit Fever again
over centralisation is a largely UK phenomenon most Liberal Democracies dont have our attachmennt to it.
The missing point about whether the Queen should seek and follow the advice of the outgoing PM, is that it is predicated on the outgoing PM being prepared to offer it! All the scenarios outlined seemed to be assuming that Johnson barricades the entrance to No. 10 and refuses to come out! If he won’t offer advice and/or accept the judgement of Parliament, then she has no alternative but to look elsewhere.
HMQ is 93. Prince Philip is 98.
That’s where it falls down
I simply don’t believe that Johnson will do that. He’s in his rights not to resign until a successor has demonstrated their ability to command a majority but I don’t think he will hold on beyond that
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
But you lost. Get over it, you loser!
I have, unlike diehard Remainers I am not asking for another vote (despite only failing to get elected by 2 votes last year)
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
I have mixed feelings about all of this. Whereas the likes of TSE and BigG could easily have a home in the LDs (and I appreciate why they may feel they don't or can't), David and Rochdale Pioneer probably don't and are homeless. They are sensible people with sensible logical views and those views need to be argued. I might not agree with them, but it is healthy and good for democracy and who knows they might be right and I might be wrong. It has been known. To often in fact!
However with the current FPTP system I am conflicted because I want that changed because I think is is unhealthy and more importantly morally wrong in a democracy. The only way I can see that happening is if the 2 main parties are broken. Hence my mixed feeling.
Good luck to all who have felt the need to resign from their party on principle.
In a PR system you generally vote for whoever represents your own views the best, rely on the system to deliver appropriate representation and then for your representatives to best argue their corner in whatever parliament arises as a result. Our system on the other hand drives people toward the lesser of evils.
David and Rochdale may well struggle to find another party that represents their views as well as their previous homes. Three things may happen: they enjoy the independence of being freed from membership and revel as future political freethinkers; their party changes (or the importance of current conflicts slowly fades) such that in time they will be happy to rejoin; or once freed from having to self-justify their previous position their political views start to change in ways they cannot yet foresee, such that signing up with another party becomes possible.
Meanwhile it ought to be possible for anyone interested in politics to identify the lesser of evils in terms of who they can actually vote for in their locality. Voting for a party doesn't mean you have to join!
Agree with all of that.
I want them to have parties that represent their views, but an electoral system that doesn't give undue weight to those views. For them it has moved from one to the other. That is they had too much representation and now have none.
And one can see that with sensible people like this, with different views, that they could work together and influence each other with exchanges in those views. That is far more healthy and less adversarial.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
And for your information food has always rotted in the fields - anyone who has ever been to a pick-your-own, seen an apple tree or walked across a potato field knows that.
But I do love how Reactionary Remainers are so willing to spout the NFU's self-serving propaganda.
The Tories last won under 30s in 1983 so unless Boris repeats the Thatcher landslide and gets a a Tory majority of almost 150 the Tories will not win young people.
It is 45 to 54s who will decide the next general election and the 36% favourable rating Boris is on with them is enough to win that election
It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.
What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
He raises a fair point - there are medicine shortages unrelated to Brexit. The NHS declines to provide certain care or medicines regularly.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
The NHS has a budget. They need to consider which treatments are cost effective using currently available evidence and the borderline cases are regularly reviewed. The decisions are made based on efficacy of the medicine, quality of life of the patient, the number of patiens who benefit and the cost of the medicine. This process places huge pressure on the Pharma companies to keep the price of pharmaceuticals low, which is borne out by all international comparisons. The NHS is far from perfect but in this respect the UK gets exceptionally good value.
You cannot equate a death "caused by" the NHS not having an infinite budget with a death "caused by" Brexit logistical problems (if such a death were to occur).
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Crushing the saboteurs was a valid strategy but the saboteurs were within the Conservative party.
For all the "the Conservative party has changed, its not the party I joined" resignations its a fact that the various Conservative fanatics have been leading politicians for years.
It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.
What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right
And for your information food has always rotted in the fields - anyone who has ever been to a pick-your-own, seen an apple tree or walked across a potato field knows that.
But I do love how Reactionary Remainers are so willing to spout the NFU's self-serving propaganda.
Is a survey done by the NFU not data? Are the government documents uncovered by FOI not data? Or is it all fake news?
I’m sorry to see you leave David. Thank you for baring your soul.
Social groups can behave in chaotic ways. We are used to a reasonably stable 2+ party system with power swapping between them - this resulted in reasonably consistent policy over decades.
What we have now is an injection of an attractor that has 1) altered the traditional left/right boundary into an up/down in/out boundary, 2) reset the leadership of the 2 main parties accordingly and 3) polarised the voters. There is no way back to the old system until either the attractor is removed or another one is added - I’m not sure people want even more change though.
We will only really understand what happens next when there is an election. The current situation is so far from our experience to date that nobody really knows what is happening.
Jesus - Competition Law is enshrined in tablets of stone in this industry - the idea that we are dropping chunks of it to ensure continuity of food supply shows just how bad things are
Thankfully, those inflicting this on us will be fine. Phew!
twas ever thus
Pitchforks out, lads. It's time for some culling of the ruling class.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
But you lost. Get over it, you loser!
I have, unlike diehard Remainers I am not asking for another vote (despite only failing to get elected by 2 votes last year)
But the difference is you will have another vote....
It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.
What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right
That post implies you are driven by what is the best option for your party's success. As posted by someone early that is like supporting a football team. Shouldn't you have your own principles and follow them.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
But you lost. Get over it, you loser!
I have, unlike diehard Remainers I am not asking for another vote (despite only failing to get elected by 2 votes last year)
But the difference is you will have another vote....
and the fact that he does not have the intellect to see that is not an analogy demonstrates the electorate were correct to reject him.
And for your information food has always rotted in the fields - anyone who has ever been to a pick-your-own, seen an apple tree or walked across a potato field knows that.
But I do love how Reactionary Remainers are so willing to spout the NFU's self-serving propaganda.
weve been over this before
we waste £20 billion of food each year. In fresh food something like 30% reaches its expiry date and then gets thrown away.
The worst offender is lettuce and leaves nearly half of which gets thrown out.
So a farmer in Andulucia drains the local aquifers, and runs down the soil, spreads iffy chemicals on top of his lettuce, then employs immigrant labor on shit wages to keep costs down, loads a lorry to drive 1000 miles to the UK where half his porudce gets thrown away in plastic bags to landfill or pollute the sea,
It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.
What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right
That post implies you are driven by what is the best option for your party's success. As posted by someone early that is like supporting a football team. Shouldn't you have your own principles and follow them.
I voted Tory even in the European Parliament elections which the Brexit Party won but I also respect democracy and recognise we have to Leave now Deal or No Deal
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
Though I`m not a Conservative Party supporter I, like many liberals, value the Conservative Party (often secretly) as a far preferable option to a collectivist party.
Through this lens, we have four major issues which are not all solvable:
1) Brexit issue needs putting behind us fast one way or another 2) The Conservative Party`s chances of winning another election are close to nil with the upsurge of the Brexit Party. We could be witnessing the death of the Conservative Party if Brexit does not happen. 3) The threat of a Corbyn government must be extinguished 4) The Union is under threat if Brexit goes ahead
I, like many, are in despair. All because of Cameron`s dratted referendum.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
But you lost. Get over it, you loser!
I have, unlike diehard Remainers I am not asking for another vote (despite only failing to get elected by 2 votes last year)
But the difference is you will have another vote....
So could diehard Remainers if they campaign to rejoin after we have left and elect a Government on that platform but we have to respect the first vote to Leave first
Well then, the earlier the GE the better for Johnson
He barely has a favourable opinion amongst 65+ [ almost my age group ]. And our numbers are shrinking by the day. I have great faith in the younger generation. They will ensure this country remain in the correct path.
On topic: David has left the party for much the same reasons as I did, but his departure is much more significant than mine. I was just an ordinary member, helping where I could but not involved in local politics or in any official role. David's CV as a former councillor and twice as an Association chairman speaks for itself. It speaks volumes also that TSE has left.
In national terms, the immediate significance of people like David leaving is that his views will be shared by quite a substantial number of moderate Tory MPs. Some of those may resign the whip, or they may feel that it is better to stay and try to influence things as much as they can, but either way they are likely to try to prevent a no-deal exit which, as David rightly says, will be extremely damaging to the economy. Whether they will succeed in this, and what mechanism they will try, remains up in the air, but these are dangerous and disturbing times, made worse by the fact that the main opposition party is also wholly unfit for office.
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.
The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.
Reminds me of a joke -
How do you know someone is a vegan ?
Don’t worry they will have already told you.
I think you’re being very unfair on David. He really isn’t like that.
I’m upset and shocked too but we don’t need to snipe at him. He’ll feel awful as it is.
It’s not personal - but “3” - rumours of spending - this stuff has been going on for decades - a budget is a package not a leaked headline - and it hasn’t even happened yet.
Am struggling to see an evidence based argument.
Any time a senior figure within a government starts speculating on how they can subvert the democratic and/or constitutional process to stay in office should scare the living shite out of any democrat. Certainly it should cause them to walk away from the government in question.
You may say Cummings is being misunderstood. I say that he's dangerous, duplicitous, and despite @rcs1000, I also maintain from bitter personal experience he's thick as pigshit and as arrogant as Trotsky. He's more than capable of trying it. Indeed, the mere fact that such a loathsome, dangerous and dishonest figure is in a senior position should set alarm bells ringing all over the country. I wouldn't trust him to run a village post office, yet he is in effect one of the most powerful men in the land.
As was noted upthread, if Corbyn or Milne had speculated aloud in this fashion, good Conservatives would rightly go ballistic. Why should it be different just because Johnson wears a blue rosette?
From Timothy & Hill to Cummings - why are senior Tories so easily enslaved to their advisers?
Because they've forgotten - or never learnt- how to think for themselves?
I think it’s because they see politics as a game and don’t understand that “why” and “what” are more important than “how”
Then when an adviser with a consistent worldview and a set of linked policies come along they have no framework or principles to measure it against. Hence the Svengali like relationship
Basically we are governed by student politicians who never grew up
Well then, the earlier the GE the better for Johnson
He barely has a favourable opinion amongst 65+ [ almost my age group ]. And our numbers are shrinking by the day. I have great faith in the younger generation. They will ensure this country remain in the correct path.
The younger generation as the polling shows also now have no faith in Corbyn, the older generation's faith in Boris therefore means Boris still beats Corbyn
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I find it rather curious that Casino_Royale is going for Big_G for being a sheep-like follower when we have HYUFD on this site.
The Tories last won under 30s in 1983 so unless Boris repeats the Thatcher landslide and gets a a Tory majority of almost 150 the Tories will not win young people.
It is 45 to 54s who will decide the next general election and the 36% favourable rating Boris is on with them is enough to win that election
Have the selectors called you up for the Lords test ? England desperately needs a spinner !
On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.
Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
You’ve left too?
Yes.
See my post at 6:50.
Woah. I missed that.
Shame. Hope you come back soon.
So do I.
Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.
No, extending Article 50 puts us on course to put Corbyn in No 10 and while we might rejoin the single market eventually we will not rejoin the EU and Euro
Brexit has created a highly motivated pro-EU segment of the electorate. Even if the leavers manage to work out how to leave we'll be rejoining. I think we'll probably sign up for the Euro as well. When the dust settles I think even the Conservatives will come round.
Over 40% of voters back No Deal, barely a third at most back joining the Euro even with 48% having voted Remain. If the Euro was a requirement of rejoining the EU it is guaranteed we would never rejoin, when even Sweden and Denmark voted against joining the Euro in referendums they have held on it you can guarantee we would too.
Had the Euro been a requirement of staying in the EU I would have voted Leave not Remain
But had the Euro a requirement and through a strong campaign "remain" had won, you'd have respected the result ?
Well then, the earlier the GE the better for Johnson
He barely has a favourable opinion amongst 65+ [ almost my age group ]. And our numbers are shrinking by the day. I have great faith in the younger generation. They will ensure this country remain in the correct path.
The younger generation as the polling shows also now have no faith in Corbyn, the older generation's faith in Boris therefore means Boris still beats Corbyn
Which underlines my point. The younger generation is smart !
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Crushing the saboteurs was a valid strategy but the saboteurs were within the Conservative party.
For all the "the Conservative party has changed, its not the party I joined" resignations its a fact that the various Conservative fanatics have been leading politicians for years.
Even Crush the Saboteurs depended on the notion that the expected Tory landslide would not consist largely of even more Brexiteer headbanger MPs. Would CCHQ have thought to check that?
This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?
Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.
True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.
No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.
Much more fundamentally unConservative was the decision to join the EC in 1972. That was a very radical break with all that the Conservatives had believed in, prior to that point, done because the party was terrified of our trade unions and the Soviet Union.
For many Conservatives, leaving the EU is like restoring the monarchy in 1660.
It had its roots in the attitudes of establishment Conservatives. Up until Suez most still thought of the UK as an independent great power and recognised a federalising Europe was a bad fit.
Eden himself was very keen that we should have got involved in the European Coal and Steel Community in 1950, and argued that the pooling of sovereignty was inevitable and desirable.
On topic: David has left the party for much the same reasons as I did, but his departure is much more significant than mine. I was just an ordinary member, helping where I could but not involved in local politics or in any official role. David's CV as a former councillor and twice as an Association chairman speaks for itself. It speaks volumes also that TSE has left.
In national terms, the immediate significance of people like David leaving is that his views will be shared by quite a substantial number of moderate Tory MPs. Some of those may resign the whip, or they may feel that it is better to stay and try to influence things as much as they can, but either way they are likely to try to prevent a no-deal exit which, as David rightly says, will be extremely damaging to the economy. Whether they will succeed in this, and what mechanism they will try, remains up in the air, but these are dangerous and disturbing times, made worse by the fact that the main opposition party is also wholly unfit for office.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
I wasn't commenting on whether the Lib Dems are the answer. My specific point addressing David's header, is that the Lib Dems are the only party offering conservative policies
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.
What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right
That post implies you are driven by what is the best option for your party's success. As posted by someone early that is like supporting a football team. Shouldn't you have your own principles and follow them.
I voted Tory even in the European Parliament elections which the Brexit Party won but I also respect democracy and recognise we have to Leave now Deal or No Deal
I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. I respect you position on the point you make here, but that wasn't the point I was making. Your previous post twice implied (although didn't state) motives to simply ensure success for the Tories.
On topic: David has left the party for much the same reasons as I did, but his departure is much more significant than mine. I was just an ordinary member, helping where I could but not involved in local politics or in any official role. David's CV as a former councillor and twice as an Association chairman speaks for itself. It speaks volumes also that TSE has left.
In national terms, the immediate significance of people like David leaving is that his views will be shared by quite a substantial number of moderate Tory MPs. Some of those may resign the whip, or they may feel that it is better to stay and try to influence things as much as they can, but either way they are likely to try to prevent a no-deal exit which, as David rightly says, will be extremely damaging to the economy. Whether they will succeed in this, and what mechanism they will try, remains up in the air, but these are dangerous and disturbing times, made worse by the fact that the main opposition party is also wholly unfit for office.
In a funny sort of way, I find the three resignations quite unfortunate in many ways. TSE, actually surprises me the least. Ever since Cameron left he is practically homeless. That was not the case with either David or yourself. You see the mirror image with Southam. I am just hanging on despite everything. I still think the party is bigger than any individual or the latest fashion.
As a representative of the pharma / Medtech industry I thought I would try to explain the issue we face. It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement. In the meantime the country cannot just act as if nothing has happened. Our industry is naturally cautious and would rather take product off the market than produce it illegally,
This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.
As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Crushing the saboteurs was a valid strategy but the saboteurs were within the Conservative party.
For all the "the Conservative party has changed, its not the party I joined" resignations its a fact that the various Conservative fanatics have been leading politicians for years.
Even Crush the Saboteurs depended on the notion that the expected Tory landslide would not consist largely of even more Brexiteer headbanger MPs. Would CCHQ have thought to check that?
The saboteurs were then thought to be the awkward remainers not the ERG
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
But you lost. Get over it, you loser!
I have, unlike diehard Remainers I am not asking for another vote (despite only failing to get elected by 2 votes last year)
Wow. And you still don't regret telling remainers to 'p**s off and vote LibDem'!
On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.
Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
You’ve left too?
Yes.
See my post at 6:50.
Woah. I missed that.
Shame. Hope you come back soon.
So do I.
Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.
No, extending Article 50 puts us on course to put Corbyn in No 10 and while we might rejoin the single market eventually we will not rejoin the EU and Euro
Brexit has created a highly motivated pro-EU segment of the electorate. Even if the leavers manage to work out how to leave we'll be rejoining. I think we'll probably sign up for the Euro as well. When the dust settles I think even the Conservatives will come round.
Over 40% of voters back No Deal, barely a third at most back joining the Euro even with 48% having voted Remain. If the Euro was a requirement of rejoining the EU it is guaranteed we would never rejoin, when even Sweden and Denmark voted against joining the Euro in referendums they have held on it you can guarantee we would too.
Had the Euro been a requirement of staying in the EU I would have voted Leave not Remain
But had the Euro a requirement and through a strong campaign "remain" had won, you'd have respected the result ?
I have decided Westminster is no longer fit for purpose. Given the choice I would vote for rejoin/Euro/Schengen.
And for your information food has always rotted in the fields - anyone who has ever been to a pick-your-own, seen an apple tree or walked across a potato field knows that.
But I do love how Reactionary Remainers are so willing to spout the NFU's self-serving propaganda.
Is a survey done by the NFU not data? Are the government documents uncovered by FOI not data? Or is it all fake news?
So you don't have any data.
Now let me give you a scenario:
Farmer A invests in machinery and gets his crop harvested. Farmer B provides fair pay and conditions and get his crop harvested. Farmer C does neither and doesn't get his crop harvested.
Why should I have any sympathy for Farmer C ?
Better IMO that Farmer C goes bankrupt and his land is bought by the more progressive Farmers A and B.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.
Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
No deal was not the only alternative once the WA was rejected. The government could have changed its red lines and sought a compromise with Labour. It could have gone for a second referendum. It could have called a general election. It could have even revoked Article 50. Instead it has chosen no deal. That is their choice, nobody else's. Don't blame the opposition.
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
Well Malcolm, another measured response well supported by evidence. The fact is, as you well know the Lib Dems are on course for a huge upsurge, including against the SNP. The Nationalists are getting a temporary uptick because of the collapse of the Tories in Scotland, but in several areas where the SNP used to be strong, including the Borders and the North East, SNP support is badly faltering.
It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.
What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
I rejoined as a result of campaigning for a friend in Battersea.
I far prefer the WA to a No Deal Brexit, but prefer a No Deal Brexit to revoking A. 50.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
I was deliberately not ascribing blame. Your post does not help lift the tone of the discussion
On the "food shortages" question, I'm not expecting people to starve either but we are used, especially in the towns and cities, to being able to walk into a supermarket any hour of the day or night and for that supermarket to have the things we want. I have three 24-hour main supermarkets within walking distance as well as any number of local shops in the Barking Road which claim to be open all the time.
The point is, if my cupboards were bare at 4am, all I need to fill them is the money to buy food and the means to convey said food home.
The disruption of No Deal, as we saw with the 2000 fuel strike, will mean temporary shortages of certain things which will be irritating and confusing but hardly the end of civilisation. I could imagine a bit of panic buying around 31/10 which would exacerbate any problems but we won't run out of milk and bread even if they run short in a few places.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Crushing the saboteurs was a valid strategy but the saboteurs were within the Conservative party.
For all the "the Conservative party has changed, its not the party I joined" resignations its a fact that the various Conservative fanatics have been leading politicians for years.
Even Crush the Saboteurs depended on the notion that the expected Tory landslide would not consist largely of even more Brexiteer headbanger MPs. Would CCHQ have thought to check that?
The saboteurs were then thought to be the awkward remainers not the ERG
Tbf I reckon May was also hoping the ERG would be outnumbered by all the newbies on her own side, representing Bolsover and the like.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.
Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
Labour voted for the referendum, by and large they voted for Article 50 to be triggered. You then Simply must follow through and vote for the deal unless you truly consider "No Deal" to be better than the Withdrawal Agreement which is only really true for those on the spartan wing of the Tory right and which the EU simply won't move on for anyone including Johnson or Corbyn. Labour has been utterly preposterous on all of this.
As a representative of the pharma / Medtech industry I thought I would try to explain the issue we face. It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement. In the meantime the country cannot just act as if nothing has happened. Our industry is naturally cautious and would rather take product off the market than produce it illegally,
This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.
As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.
We can unilaterally continue to recognise the CE mark until the new regime is ready
(Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)
And for your information food has always rotted in the fields - anyone who has ever been to a pick-your-own, seen an apple tree or walked across a potato field knows that.
But I do love how Reactionary Remainers are so willing to spout the NFU's self-serving propaganda.
weve been over this before
we waste £20 billion of food each year. In fresh food something like 30% reaches its expiry date and then gets thrown away.
The worst offender is lettuce and leaves nearly half of which gets thrown out.
So a farmer in Andulucia drains the local aquifers, and runs down the soil, spreads iffy chemicals on top of his lettuce, then employs immigrant labor on shit wages to keep costs down, loads a lorry to drive 1000 miles to the UK where half his porudce gets thrown away in plastic bags to landfill or pollute the sea,
Why are we saying this is a good thing ?
Its the madness of an economy based on consumption and ever increasing GDP.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
I read Casino_Royale’s angry attacks (see also his spat with Cyclefree last night) as cognitive dissonance. Inside he realises Brexit is destroying the reasons he Brexited...
It’s like that last episode of “The Jinx” where the protagonist finds himself vomiting in the bathroom. (If anyone hasn’t seen this, it is only the best documentary series ever).
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.
Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
No deal was not the only alternative once the WA was rejected. The government could have changed its red lines and sought a compromise with Labour. It could have gone for a second referendum. It could have called a general election. It could have even revoked Article 50. Instead it has chosen no deal. That is their choice, nobody else's. Don't blame the opposition.
Most Conservative MPs are either overtly pro-EU, or supported the deal. I wonder what they make of the PM's positioning, given they backed him so strongly.
As a representative of the pharma / Medtech industry I thought I would try to explain the issue we face. It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement. In the meantime the country cannot just act as if nothing has happened. Our industry is naturally cautious and would rather take product off the market than produce it illegally,
This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.
As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.
We can unilaterally continue to recognise the CE mark until the new regime is ready
(Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)
Not sure we can on wto as this would be discriminatory. We would then have to recognise China marks and Indian marks on generic drugs. Also how do we ensue against fakes which is a major issue in our industry. Would it be illegal to supply a fake ce mark device? Just not sure.
I assume my team of phds and engineers who spend their life on regulatory compliance will take your comment on the ce mark well. I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
Hi Malc.
As a LD in Surrey, whose only connection to Scotland is 4 visits and a Scottish wife whose entire family have defected to the South and East of England I would appreciate some feedback on the relationship between the LDs and SNP.
From my point of view (having no local knowledge) I feel there should be very little difference. Both are socially liberal and have similar economic views. The LDs believe in the EU and as much devolution as possible and the SNP believe in Independence within the EU. The difference between those two positions appears to be a dance on a pin head.
So what is it? From my point of view (if we are both in the EU) I have no issue with Independence.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.
Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
No deal was not the only alternative once the WA was rejected. The government could have changed its red lines and sought a compromise with Labour. It could have gone for a second referendum. It could have called a general election. It could have even revoked Article 50. Instead it has chosen no deal. That is their choice, nobody else's. Don't blame the opposition.
The disruption of No Deal, as we saw with the 2000 fuel strike, will mean temporary shortages of certain things which will be irritating and confusing but hardly the end of civilisation. I could imagine a bit of panic buying around 31/10 which would exacerbate any problems but we won't run out of milk and bread even if they run short in a few places.
But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.
When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news
It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement.
This is the kind if thing that will kill the Tories if they go through with No Deal. No Deal enthusiasts will just be assuming this stuff has been dealt with.
I think this also shows the (narrow political) wisdom of Labour's strategy of holding back a bit on the VONC etc rather than hitting the government at the first possible opportunity. Once you get to early September businesses will be screaming their disbelief that nobody in government can tell them WTF they're supposed to do to keep doing business at the end of the following month. They really want at least a news cycle of ministers making confused hopeless faces on TV in response to simple questions before it turns to the whole business of bringing the government down and putting Corbyn or some other caretaker in Number 10.
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
Translation: look here chaps, you've had your fun, now do as I say (preferably delivered by Terry Thomas lookalike carrying hunting whip).
Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive
But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)
Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.
Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
No deal was not the only alternative once the WA was rejected. The government could have changed its red lines and sought a compromise with Labour. It could have gone for a second referendum. It could have called a general election. It could have even revoked Article 50. Instead it has chosen no deal. That is their choice, nobody else's. Don't blame the opposition.
It spent a long time negotiating with Labour
I blame all MPs regardless of party
Start with blaming yourself, and then work back from there.
17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ? Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
The scale of the constitutional disaster that is Brexit is insufficiently realised. There are no good, or in fact sustainable, solutions available to us right now. This includes a second referendum, cancellation and Norway. Norway requires accepting EU regulation and oversight with no input or debate. The UK isn't Norway and I don't see outsourcing a large chunk of our economic and diplomatic policy to a third party being acceptable, particularly in the light of that Leave vote. May's Deal wasn't Norway and implied a relatively hard Brexit once the unicorns are swept away. But like Norway it did accept a Withdrawal Agreement and transition period
Continuing political and economic integration with the rest of the EU was not a good or sustainable option either. It was always going to provoke a reaction, eventually, because it was taking people in a direction they didn't want to go.
We are where we are. You can't hope to solve a problem until you recognise you have it. In this case to recognise Brexit to be a disaster. At that point, you can work out the least damaging remaining option, which I would suggest is either Norway or indefinite delay.
We are not at that level of awareness of the problem we are in. That's why we are thrashing around. No Deal is a manifestation of Brexit failure.
No deal was not the only alternative once the WA was rejected. The government could have changed its red lines and sought a compromise with Labour. It could have gone for a second referendum. It could have called a general election. It could have even revoked Article 50. Instead it has chosen no deal. That is their choice, nobody else's. Don't blame the opposition.
Labour was in no mood for compromise.
On the third reading, it was solely the WA being voted through. I had a look through it and noted Intrastat returns (You can't get much more leaving the EU in name only than that) continued ! For Labour MPs, it was one of tribalism, not really wanting to leave in any form whatsoever, placing your personal feelings of being hurt by the mean headlines of the Daily Mail and nasty words of the Tories above a rational decision (I'm looking at you Lisa Nandy), or being absolubtely thick as pig shit that would lead one to oppose the WA. Plenty of reason 2 for the "moderates", reason 1 and 4 for the leadership and their cabal.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
I was deliberately not ascribing blame. Your post does not help lift the tone of the discussion
I think the "blame" if that is an appropriate term, is clear.
But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.
When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news
And speaking from earthquake experience, a few thing running out is enough to get people stocking up on things they wouldn't normally buy in quantity, which in turn causes more things to run out, which...
I assume my team of phds and engineers who spend their life on regulatory compliance will take your comment on the ce mark well. I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity
But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.
When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news
And speaking from earthquake experience, a few thing running out is enough to get people stocking up on things they wouldn't normally buy in quantity, which in turn causes more things to run out, which...
Do people start buying enough bread to feed the 5000 in Japan too ?
It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement.
This is the kind if thing that will kill the Tories if they go through with No Deal. No Deal enthusiasts will just be assuming this stuff has been dealt with.
I think this also shows the (narrow political) wisdom of Labour's strategy of holding back a bit on the VONC etc rather than hitting the government at the first possible opportunity. Once you get to early September businesses will be screaming their disbelief that nobody in government can tell them WTF they're supposed to do to keep doing business at the end of the following month. They really want at least a news cycle of ministers making confused hopeless faces on TV in response to simple questions before it turns to the whole business of bringing the government down and putting Corbyn or some other caretaker in Number 10.
Yes. The VONC has to come when it is clear that chaos looms - when Parliament resumes in October may be the moment.
But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.
When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news
And speaking from earthquake experience, a few thing running out is enough to get people stocking up on things they wouldn't normally buy in quantity, which in turn causes more things to run out, which...
Do people start buying enough bread to feed the 5000 in Japan too ?
Not sure about bread but after 3/11 you couldn't get instant noodles for love or money.
Comments
Seems cheap !
https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/1158989071672389633?s=21
I too have had that experience in London and voted for Johnson because of Ken.
Yes, I would also vote Corbyn if it helped to stop the madness but in my current constituency it probably makes more sense to vote LD.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/
Democracy surely allows people to change their minds? The only way out of the current impasse is to have a second fairly contested "Peoples Vote" which is binding so we can all move on.
Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.
His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.
One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.
Alanbrooke is “bad”.
If the Tories extend again and refuse to deliver Brexit the Brexit Party will be over 30% and the Tories back to the 9% they got in the European Parliament elections
These deficiencies are not enhanced by the loss of the likes of Richard Nabavi, David Herdson, Big G or TSE. If political parties are to contribute to the running of the country sensible members (shoe wear apart, obviously) are essential to keep a grip on extremest tendencies. The likes of Joff dropping out of Labour membership is another example of the same problem.
Grass roots and activist bases have been the best defence of the established parties to populists like Farage and have generally been very successful in any election that actually counts as the recent by election showed once again. If those roots die and the activists depart our politics will become ever more febrile.
you really do need that break
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-44884882
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-blamed-as-daffodils-left-to-rot-in-cornwall/08/04/
But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well
This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
I appreciate that it must be galling for those on the opposite side of the debate to see the ERG rewarded for not voting for May's deal. But that's politics, I am afraid. It is not a fair business.
Had the Euro been a requirement of staying in the EU I would have voted Leave not Remain
youre off on a Brexit Fever again
over centralisation is a largely UK phenomenon most Liberal Democracies dont have our attachmennt to it.
I simply don’t believe that Johnson will do that. He’s in his rights not to resign until a successor has demonstrated their ability to command a majority but I don’t think he will hold on beyond that
I want them to have parties that represent their views, but an electoral system that doesn't give undue weight to those views. For them it has moved from one to the other. That is they had too much representation and now have none.
And one can see that with sensible people like this, with different views, that they could work together and influence each other with exchanges in those views. That is far more healthy and less adversarial.
The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
Show us some data.
And for your information food has always rotted in the fields - anyone who has ever been to a pick-your-own, seen an apple tree or walked across a potato field knows that.
But I do love how Reactionary Remainers are so willing to spout the NFU's self-serving propaganda.
It is 45 to 54s who will decide the next general election and the 36% favourable rating Boris is on with them is enough to win that election
A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.
Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.
I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
You cannot equate a death "caused by" the NHS not having an infinite budget with a death "caused by" Brexit logistical problems (if such a death were to occur).
For all the "the Conservative party has changed, its not the party I joined" resignations its a fact that the various Conservative fanatics have been leading politicians for years.
Social groups can behave in chaotic ways. We are used to a reasonably stable 2+ party system with power swapping between them - this resulted in reasonably consistent policy over decades.
What we have now is an injection of an attractor that has 1) altered the traditional left/right boundary into an up/down in/out boundary, 2) reset the leadership of the 2 main parties accordingly and 3) polarised the voters. There is no way back to the old system until either the attractor is removed or another one is added - I’m not sure people want even more change though.
We will only really understand what happens next when there is an election. The current situation is so far from our experience to date that nobody really knows what is happening.
we waste £20 billion of food each year. In fresh food something like 30% reaches its expiry date and then gets thrown away.
The worst offender is lettuce and leaves nearly half of which gets thrown out.
So a farmer in Andulucia drains the local aquifers, and runs down the soil, spreads iffy chemicals on top of his lettuce, then employs immigrant labor on shit wages to keep costs down, loads a lorry to drive 1000 miles to the UK where half his porudce gets thrown away in plastic bags to landfill or pollute the sea,
Why are we saying this is a good thing ?
Though I`m not a Conservative Party supporter I, like many liberals, value the Conservative Party (often secretly) as a far preferable option to a collectivist party.
Through this lens, we have four major issues which are not all solvable:
1) Brexit issue needs putting behind us fast one way or another
2) The Conservative Party`s chances of winning another election are close to nil with the upsurge of the Brexit Party. We could be witnessing the death of the Conservative Party if Brexit does not happen.
3) The threat of a Corbyn government must be extinguished
4) The Union is under threat if Brexit goes ahead
I, like many, are in despair. All because of Cameron`s dratted referendum.
Can anyone cheer me up??
I have great faith in the younger generation. They will ensure this country remain in the correct path.
In national terms, the immediate significance of people like David leaving is that his views will be shared by quite a substantial number of moderate Tory MPs. Some of those may resign the whip, or they may feel that it is better to stay and try to influence things as much as they can, but either way they are likely to try to prevent a no-deal exit which, as David rightly says, will be extremely damaging to the economy. Whether they will succeed in this, and what mechanism they will try, remains up in the air, but these are dangerous and disturbing times, made worse by the fact that the main opposition party is also wholly unfit for office.
Then when an adviser with a consistent worldview and a set of linked policies come along they have no framework or principles to measure it against. Hence the Svengali like relationship
Basically we are governed by student politicians who never grew up
Although I'd prefer a good option...
Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
You see the mirror image with Southam.
I am just hanging on despite everything. I still think the party is bigger than any individual or the latest fashion.
This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.
As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.
Pre-Brexit I would not have done that.
Now let me give you a scenario:
Farmer A invests in machinery and gets his crop harvested.
Farmer B provides fair pay and conditions and get his crop harvested.
Farmer C does neither and doesn't get his crop harvested.
Why should I have any sympathy for Farmer C ?
Better IMO that Farmer C goes bankrupt and his land is bought by the more progressive Farmers A and B.
I far prefer the WA to a No Deal Brexit, but prefer a No Deal Brexit to revoking A. 50.
The point is, if my cupboards were bare at 4am, all I need to fill them is the money to buy food and the means to convey said food home.
The disruption of No Deal, as we saw with the 2000 fuel strike, will mean temporary shortages of certain things which will be irritating and confusing but hardly the end of civilisation. I could imagine a bit of panic buying around 31/10 which would exacerbate any problems but we won't run out of milk and bread even if they run short in a few places.
Labour has been utterly preposterous on all of this.
(Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)
It’s like that last episode of “The Jinx” where the protagonist finds himself vomiting in the bathroom.
(If anyone hasn’t seen this, it is only the best documentary series ever).
I assume my team of phds and engineers who spend their life on regulatory compliance will take your comment on the ce mark well. I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity
As a LD in Surrey, whose only connection to Scotland is 4 visits and a Scottish wife whose entire family have defected to the South and East of England I would appreciate some feedback on the relationship between the LDs and SNP.
From my point of view (having no local knowledge) I feel there should be very little difference. Both are socially liberal and have similar economic views. The LDs believe in the EU and as much devolution as possible and the SNP believe in Independence within the EU. The difference between those two positions appears to be a dance on a pin head.
So what is it? From my point of view (if we are both in the EU) I have no issue with Independence.
I blame all MPs regardless of party
When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news
I think this also shows the (narrow political) wisdom of Labour's strategy of holding back a bit on the VONC etc rather than hitting the government at the first possible opportunity. Once you get to early September businesses will be screaming their disbelief that nobody in government can tell them WTF they're supposed to do to keep doing business at the end of the following month. They really want at least a news cycle of ministers making confused hopeless faces on TV in response to simple questions before it turns to the whole business of bringing the government down and putting Corbyn or some other caretaker in Number 10.
We are not at that level of awareness of the problem we are in. That's why we are thrashing around. No Deal is a manifestation of Brexit failure.
For Labour MPs, it was one of tribalism, not really wanting to leave in any form whatsoever, placing your personal feelings of being hurt by the mean headlines of the Daily Mail and nasty words of the Tories above a rational decision (I'm looking at you Lisa Nandy), or being absolubtely thick as pig shit that would lead one to oppose the WA.
Plenty of reason 2 for the "moderates", reason 1 and 4 for the leadership and their cabal.
Question for Mr Herdson - what do you think the alternative to Boris's firm timeline approach is ?
Because 3 years of May style dithering has caused untold damage to the Uk and the Con party.