I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
This is the stuff you learn with Google. The Welsh mozzarella business is owned by an Irish company. A lot of the mozzarella is exported and so the company is shifting production to Ireland to mitigate Brexit.
And then they'll export it to mainland europe via Holyhead?
I assume that's the intention. The UK would be in serious breach of WTO rules if it attempted to impede transit.
Surely that's the only logic of Truss's Freeports, so we don't lose the transit port work?
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
Listening to Annunziata on R5L. The only question arising is why does she speak like a normal southerner? Her accent is utterly unremarkable. Unlike Jacob's.
The only way to resolve Brexit is for one side to win and for one side to lose. For the next few months at least we need a government of national disunity. And that is, at present, exactly what we have.
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron. Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that? I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem.
Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer! I'm not sure one exists...
Lib Dems do not reject democracy, Mr Charles. They do reject fraud and cheating. They believe in fair play, and indeed in fairness generally. And they believe in personal freedom - that is, freedom for everybody.
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
Yes
And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
Er, he's MP for Dumfries isn't he?
The ex-one is - Boris put an English landowner in instead, against Ruth's strong objections.....
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
Listening to Annunziata on R5L. The only question arising is why does she speak like a normal southerner? Her accent is utterly unremarkable. Unlike Jacob's.
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
The other problem is that it requires everyone to trust Corbyn
"Give me a limited mandate. I really promise that I won't use any of my executive authority as PM to do any of things that I have campaigned for for decades. I know I don't have a majority in Parliament, so trust me, hey? Because you can always kick me out and plunge the country into chaos"
I am glad John McDonnell is saying that if the Scottish Parliament votes for an Independence referendum they should have it. Swinson on the other hand wants another EU referendum but would deny Scotland another vote.
A good and thoughtful argument from Tom Harris on independence. He has his biases, of course, but I'd urge our Nationalist friends to read it with an open mind. https://labourhame.com/the-judgement-of-solomon/
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
I was deliberately not ascribing blame. Your post does not help lift the tone of the discussion
Quite - the unpleasant language about people on both sides is pretty much even. Of course it reflects strongly held views etc, etc but it's all very unpleasant and the worst part of it is the inability of the 'ardents' to see their own part in the spectacle.
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron. Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that? I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem.
Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer! I'm not sure one exists...
Lib Dems do not reject democracy, Mr Charles. They do reject fraud and cheating. They believe in fair play, and indeed in fairness generally. And they believe in personal freedom - that is, freedom for everybody.
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
Does that help at all?
They want to ignore the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit.
I agree with the sentiments that you post. But in my gut, I don't believe that Swinson will see any problem that can't be regulated. (I don't know her, but know Duncan pretty as we were friends at Uni)
A good and thoughtful argument from Tom Harris on independence. He has his biases, of course, but I'd urge our Nationalist friends to read it with an open mind. https://labourhame.com/the-judgement-of-solomon/
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
Yes
And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
Er, he's MP for Dumfries isn't he?
The ex-one is - Boris put an English landowner in instead, against Ruth's strong objections.....
I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity
Nasty comment.
My earlier point about unpleasantness on both sides just neatly illustrated. I guess he thinks it's an ok joke.
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
He goes wrong before then when he says "First, let’s put aside factional agenda...", which is the reason we're in this mess in the first place and will ultimately wind up with us No Dealing on 31 October.
Otherwise it's an entirely sensible and well thought through logical argument. Which is also the problem with it.
E-i-T, what do you think the chances of a VONC in the first place?
Interesting question. I guess I'd break it down like this, numbers pulled out of arse and in no way an offer to bet:
10%: Boris hastily reverse-ferrets on No Deal, issue is moot 10%: Boris requests an election right away and Corbyn agrees, issue is moot 20%: Boris still appears to be doing No Deal but Parliament has another solution to constrain him that looks like it'll work 35%: VONC passes through MPs defecting [edited] 20%: Not enough defections, it goes up to the wire without parliament doing anything 5%: Merciful asteroid of death or some other black swan
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
This line is the flaw in your argument: ".....even three months in office will show that Corbyn is not the fiend incarnate that the Tory media like to suggest." Indeed unless he is spectularly ill advised he would very largely keep his powder dry to try and disguise his credentials and then use the boost to his status to try and win a subsequent GE. And that all too apparent risk (in their eyes at least) is why I think that the Tory rebels and Lib Dems would endorse a Government of Remainer Unity only if it was led by anyone but Corbyn.
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
The other problem is that it requires everyone to trust Corbyn
"Give me a limited mandate. I really promise that I won't use any of my executive authority as PM to do any of things that I have campaigned for for decades. I know I don't have a majority in Parliament, so trust me, hey? Because you can always kick me out and plunge the country into chaos"
Yes, I thought that might be a major problem for Tory rebels. It could work if Jezza is made PM for a day, just long enough to agree an extension with EU and call an election. If he doesn't do these things or starts other stuff, then VoNC for him too.
But even if he gets a day and then calls an election (and wins the 2/3 vote needed), he would then still have 25 days in office.
I think the Father of the House as PM has more legs frankly.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
I was deliberately not ascribing blame. Your post does not help lift the tone of the discussion
Quite - the unpleasant language about people on both sides is pretty much even. Of course it reflects strongly held views etc, etc but it's all very unpleasant and the worst part of it is the inability of the 'ardents' to see their own part in the spectacle.
Hey, leave the New Zealand Prime Minister out of it!
E-i-T, what do you think the chances of a VONC in the first place?
Interesting question. I guess I'd break it down like this, numbers pulled out of arse and in no way an offer to bet:
10%: Boris hastily reverse-ferrets on No Deal, issue is moot 10%: Boris requests an election right away and Corbyn agrees, issue is moot 20%: Boris still appears to be doing No Deal but Parliament has another solution to constrain him that looks like it'll work 25%: VONC passes through MPs defecting 20%: Not enough defections, it goes up to the wire without parliament doing anything 5%: Merciful asteroid of death or some other black swan
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
No. The deal would involve an election. Sure, Labour would have a decent chance. That's democracy. But the point is that it does not require someone like Dominic Grieve to support an activist Labour government (which I accept is too much to expect) before an election.The programme would be to deliver a freeze on withdrawal and an election - nothing else.
And corbyn who unlike say a clegg has spent 40 years hating everything about the neoliberal capitalist globalist consensus of the tories and new labour.
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
The other problem is that it requires everyone to trust Corbyn
"Give me a limited mandate. I really promise that I won't use any of my executive authority as PM to do any of things that I have campaigned for for decades. I know I don't have a majority in Parliament, so trust me, hey? Because you can always kick me out and plunge the country into chaos"
How would it plunge the country into chaos? There'd be a GE, which is what he'd be promising anyway.
I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity
Nasty comment.
It is a sad indictment of this country that part of brexit has been to trash the output and opinions of the experts who in the background have worked away in their own worlds to try and improve society. Our concerns have been largely ignored and when we question things we are told we are ignorant and undemocratic and even to blame for the mess. Yet every day we are expected to do our job and more. I come from a large family of doctors. Our business is caring for people. The fact that we are deeply upset is a problem for this country.
I take back my comment.
Well done sir. If only a ton of others followed your lead.
David Howard (fleetingly of this parish) on R4 just before the 0700 news explaining why the speaker allowing an emergency debate and suspension of SO24 are key to MPs taking control of the agenda and stopping a no deal exit.
I was supposed to be on to explain why Martha was wrong to say in her introduction to her interview with Jonathan Sumption yesterday that before the Fixed-term Parliaments Act a vote of no confidence led automatically to an election (fall of Baldwin in 1924, Lascelles/'Senex' letter of 1950 and all that). But apparently it's No Deal Brexit day on the BBC so interest in history has been abandoned in favour of fevered speculation about the future!
Our politics is becoming so fevered because, unusually, all sides are trying to talk up the prospect of no deal. I am still on the other side of the bet.
The most surprising thing from Sumption yesterday was his assertion that HMQ is required to take and follow advice from her government, and her government only. Rather than the trio of officials that I thought were in place supposedly feeding her impartial and considered advice.
Yes I was surprised by that. It's a massive over-simplification. As the Lascelles letter makes clear, these are personal prerogatives and HMQ will come to her own conclusions.
It's crucial to understand that a PM who has lost a vote of no confidence is not entitled to have his or her advice accepted without question, for the simple reason that the government is no longer a responsible government.
In addition, as the Cabinet Manual implies, the PM can only advise if HMQ asks for advice. She doesn't have to ask.
The Cabinet Manual per se surely does not have Constitutional force. It is a Civil Service document drawn up before the 2010 election.It is not obvious that its contents are binding.
Sorry, I corrected the VONC number. I'd count "get some form of words from the EU side act like there's going to be a deal" as part of "reverse ferret".
I have some sympathy for David but I can't agree with his assertion that the Conservatives have always been cautious and pragmatic.
As I see it, we tend to alternate between periods of stability and periods of crisis and the Conservatives have survived and thrived by knowing how to respond to each one.
In the 30s, there was a consensus for appeasement. Churchill not only had to win the war but he had to see off those in his party who wanted to sue for peace.
Following the war we had the post-war consensus. By the 70s this was breaking down due to increased industrial action and Thatcher swept it away.
Since the fall of the Berlin Wall a new consensus has built up around open borders, free markets and global institutions. This has is now breaking down, not just in the UK but across the West.
The Conservatives made the right choice in picking Boris as they need to ride the wave of change or they will be swept away. If Boris fails, then a Corbyn or Farage will replace him.
The centrists will have their time in the sun again but they need to realise that the status quo is not sustainable. They also need to try to understand the motivations of leave voters and those voting for change:
Security:
- Giving people on ordinary incomes the chance to own their own home - Having secure employment and not needing to claim benefits
Fairness:
- Not allowing asylum seekers to jump the queue when there is a massive housing waiting list - Not allowing health tourists to use our NHS for free - Not allowing people to claim child benefit for children who don't live here
Sovereignty
- Not allowing increasing numbers of decisions to be taken by unelected bureaucrats in global institutions.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
I thought so too.
Which part of the Leave campaign built around xenophobic lies led you to think that?
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
Yes
And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
Ummm. The SOS represents Dumfries & Galloway which, last time I looked, was still in Scotland. A merger makes no sense as the important election in Scotland takes place in 2021 and the parties standing separately is more likely to maximise the unionist vote.
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
Yes
And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
Er, he's MP for Dumfries isn't he?
The ex-one is - Boris put an English landowner in instead, against Ruth's strong objections.....
Alister Jack is the SOS for Scotland, the MP for Dumfries, and the land he owns is around the Lockerbie area. That's in Scotland.
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
No. The deal would involve an election. Sure, Labour would have a decent chance. That's democracy. But the point is that it does not require someone like Dominic Grieve to support an activist Labour government (which I accept is too much to expect) before an election.The programme would be to deliver a freeze on withdrawal and an election - nothing else.
How could parliament stop him using executive authority?
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron. Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that? I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem.
Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer! I'm not sure one exists...
Lib Dems do not reject democracy, Mr Charles. They do reject fraud and cheating. They believe in fair play, and indeed in fairness generally. And they believe in personal freedom - that is, freedom for everybody.
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
Does that help at all?
They want to ignore the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit.
I agree with the sentiments that you post. But in my gut, I don't believe that Swinson will see any problem that can't be regulated. (I don't know her, but know Duncan pretty as we were friends at Uni)
I am sorry, but your "ignoring the democratically expressed view" argument is guff at best and actually anti-democratic at worst. What you are saying is that once a referendum or election shows a slight majority, everyone else has to shut up and go home, rather than do their democratic duty and put to "the people" that they might need to have a rethink. The LDs and everyone else who realise that Brexit is snakeoil have a democratic duty to do everything they can to stop the patient from continuing with his self-harm.
Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think. Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:
I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
Nick's bold assertion "The Tory rebels don’t need to sign up to years of left-wing government" is undone by his very next sentence:
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
The other problem is that it requires everyone to trust Corbyn
"Give me a limited mandate. I really promise that I won't use any of my executive authority as PM to do any of things that I have campaigned for for decades. I know I don't have a majority in Parliament, so trust me, hey? Because you can always kick me out and plunge the country into chaos"
How would it plunge the country into chaos? There'd be a GE, which is what he'd be promising anyway.
Because of the timing - in the limited window which the EU had presumably granted and because I assume it would take time for a VoNC to happen
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
I thought so too.
Which part of the Leave campaign built around xenophobic lies led you to think that?
Please, not again Alastair.
I agree with the sentiments in your earlier post today on the EU.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
Me too. Being in the EU is the worst possible situation, apart from all the other options ;-)
Although I have become a bit more pro-EU in the last few years as I've better understood it and dispelled some of my own misconceptions.
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
That is an informative post, but only in terms of what it says about you as a person who continues to use casual insults as an alternative to respectful political debate.
Leaving a political party can be a big decision but ultimately if you disagree with its leadership or policies profoundly then it is an act an individual should execute.
No. The deal would involve an election. Sure, Labour would have a decent chance. That's democracy. But the point is that it does not require someone like Dominic Grieve to support an activist Labour government (which I accept is too much to expect) before an election.The programme would be to deliver a freeze on withdrawal and an election - nothing else.
Although with the current state of the parties FPTP may no longer be capable of returning a House of Commons that has confidence in a Prime Minister, in which case the caretaker PM could be there for years...
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron. Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that? I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem.
Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer! I'm not sure one exists...
Lib Dems do not reject democracy, Mr Charles. They do reject fraud and cheating. They believe in fair play, and indeed in fairness generally. And they believe in personal freedom - that is, freedom for everybody.
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
Does that help at all?
They want to ignore the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit.
I agree with the sentiments that you post. But in my gut, I don't believe that Swinson will see any problem that can't be regulated. (I don't know her, but know Duncan pretty as we were friends at Uni)
I am sorry, but your "ignoring the democratically expressed view" argument is guff at best and actually anti-democratic at worst. What you are saying is that once a referendum or election shows a slight majority, everyone else has to shut up and go home, rather than do their democratic duty and put to "the people" that they might need to have a rethink. The LDs and everyone else who realise that Brexit is snakeoil have a democratic duty to do everything they can to stop the patient from continuing with his self-harm.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
I thought so too.
Its funny as I was a Remainer and you helped convince me to switch sides, now you seem to be heading to where I was pre-referendum before then and I'm going further the other way - and I know a lot of others like me who switched late who are now on the No Deal wing too. It feels almost like early Brexiters like you are Doctor Frankenstein, while Brexit and people like myself are the Monster - be careful of what you've created [no offence intended with this]
Ultimately however it takes two to tango and a pragmatic deal could have been available and it would be one where NI was dealt with in the future negotiations with a clear commitment by both sides to keep an open border - while the transition keeps an open border during those negotiations. Job done, nice and simple - the only thing it relied upon was a bit of goodwill on both sides. But there is no goodwill.
The dogmatic insistence of the EU on the backstop is unacceptable and we can't force pragmatism on them. The vote in the EU was to take back control, the backstop sacrifices control. So no.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
That's like asking Elisabeth Fritzl to move back in to the cellar because it's been painted.
A tad a rude analogy but if I play into it . . .
I would say its like we are saying to someone with Stockholm Syndrome that the world outside is safe and we are going outside, do or die. Once we are outside, hope they realise the world outside is safe and they can join us.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
I thought so too.
Which part of the Leave campaign built around xenophobic lies led you to think that?
Please, not again Alastair.
I agree with the sentiments in your earlier post today on the EU.
When I see the rendings of shirts of self-proclaimed moderate Leavers, I am reminded of Robert Conquest’s suggested retitling of his book The Great Terror for the second edition.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
E-i-T, what do you think the chances of a VONC in the first place?
Interesting question. I guess I'd break it down like this, numbers pulled out of arse and in no way an offer to bet:
10%: Boris hastily reverse-ferrets on No Deal, issue is moot 10%: Boris requests an election right away and Corbyn agrees, issue is moot 20%: Boris still appears to be doing No Deal but Parliament has another solution to constrain him that looks like it'll work 35%: VONC passes through MPs defecting [edited] 20%: Not enough defections, it goes up to the wire without parliament doing anything 5%: Merciful asteroid of death or some other black swan
Hmmm. I am,
20% Deal 30% No Deal 50% VONC or some other parliamentary mechanism leads to Extension; Election; or GONU.
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
No, indeed I think Ruth Davidson has a very good chance of becoming First Minister in 2021 after 14 years of SNP rule with LD support (the LDs would prop up Davidson at Holyrood even if not Boris at Westminster).
I also think Adam Price could become First Minister of Wales too with Tory and LD support to replace the hapless Mark Drakeford and Welsh Labour (especially as Drakeford seems to be a nationalist anyway but unlike Price a socialist to boot)
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
To the pure all things are pure.
Some people see view hatred of people born prior to c.1965 as nothing more than righteous anger.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
I thought so too.
Its funny as I was a Remainer and you helped convince me to switch sides, now you seem to be heading to where I was pre-referendum before then and I'm going further the other way - and I know a lot of others like me who switched late who are now on the No Deal wing too. It feels almost like early Brexiters like you are Doctor Frankenstein, while Brexit and people like myself are the Monster - be careful of what you've created [no offence intended with this]
Ultimately however it takes two to tango and a pragmatic deal could have been available and it would be one where NI was dealt with in the future negotiations with a clear commitment by both sides to keep an open border - while the transition keeps an open border during those negotiations. Job done, nice and simple - the only thing it relied upon was a bit of goodwill on both sides. But there is no goodwill.
The dogmatic insistence of the EU on the backstop is unacceptable and we can't force pragmatism on them. The vote in the EU was to take back control, the backstop sacrifices control. So no.
IMO. a Brexit that leaves something on the table for its opponents is more likely to succeed than one that doesn't.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
That's like asking Elisabeth Fritzl to move back in to the cellar because it's been painted.
A tad a rude analogy but if I play into it . . .
I would say its like we are saying to someone with Stockholm Syndrome that the world outside is safe and we are going outside, do or die. Once we are outside, hope they realise the world outside is safe and they can join us.
Captain Scott more like. Don’t let the igloo door hit your arse in the way out.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore yy else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someonele for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.
He raises a fair pois regularly.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
He doesn’t raise a fair point. Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.
His one tune and bad.
Alanbrooke is “bad”.
What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.
first he hated the welsh, then he came for the paddies youre up next
I have a zero tolerance policy for crypto-fascists, a category in which I’d place you for sure.
lets just leave that as you have a zero tolerance policy for anyone who isnt you
It means EU interrailers wont get further than London, without paying extra for travel, and non-London based UK interailers will have to pay to get to London.
The Man at Seat 61 thinks the latter will take regional flights to Paris and avoid travel to london
Looks like the Rail Delivery Group have withdrawn train companies from the scheme.
People in the UK can still buy an Interrail ticket, but tickets won't be valid for Interrailers outside the UK travelling here. An utterly stupid decision.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Assume whatever you want to assume. I’ve patiently explained my views and reasons on multiple occasions in the past but you don’t seem to be interested in anything other than your preconceived notions
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
To the pure all things are pure.
Some people see view hatred of people born prior to c.1965 as nothing more than righteous anger.
that is a relief, I was born in that year! Some of your posts are good Sean, that one not so. Where did you get that one from? There is no hatred by those that oppose the Madness against people of an older generation, only a certain resentment that many of them have imposed their prejudices on those who will have more to lose.
As for my previous statement, it is entirely supportable to say that Brexit is based on hatred. It does not mean to say it is your personal motivation, but it does mean you are in bad company
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
I have zero respect for those who do.
I do not need your respect so get over it
Guys this is a little unedifying
I think Casino_Royale's posts are highly unedifying. They are posts that typify the type of unpleasant fanatical introspective Little England view that now dominates the Conservative Party. The Party will be reduced to a rump of Brexit-Lite swivel-eyed, intellectually challenged angry old men, aligned with unthinking blind Bozo worshippers like HYUFD.
A 30% rump though as opposed to the 9% rump of the European elections
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.
He raises a fair point - there are medicine shortages unrelated to Brexit. The NHS declines to provide certain care or medicines regularly.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
He doesn’t raise a fair point. Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.
His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.
One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.
Alanbrooke is “bad”.
What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.
You’re in the “mad” bucket. Not sure why OGS humours you tbh, since your only contribution is to shout turnip every five minutes.
Whilst you astound the site with pearls of wisdom. Keep polishing those boots.
IMO. a Brexit that leaves something on the table for its opponents is more likely to succeed than one that doesn't.
IMO its a binary choice, we should be in, or we should be out.
If we are in we should be in: Schengen, Euro, the works. If we are out we should be out: Trade agreement sure, but no politics at all. No ECJ, no European Parliament laws.
I view us as like Canada to the EU's USA. You don't see Canadians adopting wholesale without any choice laws from the US Congress. You don't see President Trump getting involved with Canadian laws. You don't see SCOTUS adjudicating the laws of Canada.
What we need is an equivalent of NAFTA, or whatever they're going to call it now.
Rip off the bandage, survey the lay of the land and then get trade agreements sorted. No politics. Or go whole hog in.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron. Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that? I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem. Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer! I'm not sure one exists...
Lib Dems do not reject democracy, Mr Charles. They do reject fraud and cheating. They believe in fair play, and indeed in fairness generally. And they believe in personal freedom - that is, freedom for everybody.
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
Does that help at all?
They want to ignore the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit. I agree with the sentiments that you post. But in my gut, I don't believe that Swinson will see any problem that can't be regulated. (I don't know her, but know Duncan pretty as we were friends at Uni)
Respect for "the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit" is trumped by the need for a fair process in the referendum. I don`t expect you to cheat at cards, but that is what recent leaders of the Conservative Party have done, and they then expect everybody to keep quiet about it and pay up.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
Looks like the Rail Delivery Group have withdrawn train companies from the scheme.
People in the UK can still buy an Interrail ticket, but tickets won't be valid for Interrailers outside the UK travelling here. An utterly stupid decision.
Why utterly stupid? Isn’t it just a business analysis?
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I see Labour is as clear on Indyref 2 as it is on Brexit.
They've realised constructive ambiguity is a vote-winner. It's why they are riding so high in the polls
If as Yougov and Mori suggest Corbyn Labour are heading for fewer seats than Michael Foot and back to just 1 MP in Scotland (ironically Ian Murray) it will be poetic justice
Comments
(I know there's debate about it's origins, but some versions at least have it invented in England or Scotland)
"more subtly, Labour has a decent chance in the following election, as the party that stopped no deal."
So yes, it probably would mean Tory rebels having to sign up to years of left wing government....
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/the-obvious-failings-of-a-government-of-national-unity/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/21/zizzi-ask-italian-begin-using-welsh-mozzarella-rather-italian/
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
Does that help at all?
"Give me a limited mandate. I really promise that I won't use any of my executive authority as PM to do any of things that I have campaigned for for decades. I know I don't have a majority in Parliament, so trust me, hey? Because you can always kick me out and plunge the country into chaos"
Swinson on the other hand wants another EU referendum but would deny Scotland another vote.
https://labourhame.com/the-judgement-of-solomon/
I agree with the sentiments that you post. But in my gut, I don't believe that Swinson will see any problem that can't be regulated. (I don't know her, but know Duncan pretty as we were friends at Uni)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alister_Jack
Otherwise it's an entirely sensible and well thought through logical argument. Which is also the problem with it.
10%: Boris hastily reverse-ferrets on No Deal, issue is moot
10%: Boris requests an election right away and Corbyn agrees, issue is moot
20%: Boris still appears to be doing No Deal but Parliament has another solution to constrain him that looks like it'll work
35%: VONC passes through MPs defecting [edited]
20%: Not enough defections, it goes up to the wire without parliament doing anything
5%: Merciful asteroid of death or some other black swan
But even if he gets a day and then calls an election (and wins the 2/3 vote needed), he would then still have 25 days in office.
I think the Father of the House as PM has more legs frankly.
As I see it, we tend to alternate between periods of stability and periods of crisis and the Conservatives have survived and thrived by knowing how to respond to each one.
In the 30s, there was a consensus for appeasement. Churchill not only had to win the war but he had to see off those in his party who wanted to sue for peace.
Following the war we had the post-war consensus. By the 70s this was breaking down due to increased industrial action and Thatcher swept it away.
Since the fall of the Berlin Wall a new consensus has built up around open borders, free markets and global institutions. This has is now breaking down, not just in the UK but across the West.
The Conservatives made the right choice in picking Boris as they need to ride the wave of change or they will be swept away. If Boris fails, then a Corbyn or Farage will replace him.
The centrists will have their time in the sun again but they need to realise that the status quo is not sustainable. They also need to try to understand the motivations of leave voters and those voting for change:
Security:
- Giving people on ordinary incomes the chance to own their own home
- Having secure employment and not needing to claim benefits
Fairness:
- Not allowing asylum seekers to jump the queue when there is a massive housing waiting list
- Not allowing health tourists to use our NHS for free
- Not allowing people to claim child benefit for children who don't live here
Sovereignty
- Not allowing increasing numbers of decisions to be taken by unelected bureaucrats in global institutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alister_Jack
Are you thinking of Robin Walker?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17798640.english-mp-appointed-scotland-office-minister/
I agree with the sentiments in your earlier post today on the EU.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Although I have become a bit more pro-EU in the last few years as I've better understood it and dispelled some of my own misconceptions.
Leaving a political party can be a big decision but ultimately if you disagree with its leadership or policies profoundly then it is an act an individual should execute.
Ultimately however it takes two to tango and a pragmatic deal could have been available and it would be one where NI was dealt with in the future negotiations with a clear commitment by both sides to keep an open border - while the transition keeps an open border during those negotiations. Job done, nice and simple - the only thing it relied upon was a bit of goodwill on both sides. But there is no goodwill.
The dogmatic insistence of the EU on the backstop is unacceptable and we can't force pragmatism on them. The vote in the EU was to take back control, the backstop sacrifices control. So no.
I would say its like we are saying to someone with Stockholm Syndrome that the world outside is safe and we are going outside, do or die. Once we are outside, hope they realise the world outside is safe and they can join us.
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
20% Deal
30% No Deal
50% VONC or some other parliamentary mechanism leads to Extension; Election; or GONU.
I also think Adam Price could become First Minister of Wales too with Tory and LD support to replace the hapless Mark Drakeford and Welsh Labour (especially as Drakeford seems to be a nationalist anyway but unlike Price a socialist to boot)
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
To people like John McDonnell, Scots are now "unpersons".
Some people see view hatred of people born prior to c.1965 as nothing more than righteous anger.
Don’t let the igloo door hit your arse in the way out.
The Man at Seat 61 thinks the latter will take regional flights to Paris and avoid travel to london
People in the UK can still buy an Interrail ticket, but tickets won't be valid for Interrailers outside the UK travelling here. An utterly stupid decision.
As for my previous statement, it is entirely supportable to say that Brexit is based on hatred. It does not mean to say it is your personal motivation, but it does mean you are in bad company
If we are in we should be in: Schengen, Euro, the works.
If we are out we should be out: Trade agreement sure, but no politics at all. No ECJ, no European Parliament laws.
I view us as like Canada to the EU's USA. You don't see Canadians adopting wholesale without any choice laws from the US Congress. You don't see President Trump getting involved with Canadian laws. You don't see SCOTUS adjudicating the laws of Canada.
What we need is an equivalent of NAFTA, or whatever they're going to call it now.
Rip off the bandage, survey the lay of the land and then get trade agreements sorted. No politics. Or go whole hog in.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
https://twitter.com/andydphilip/status/1159070582815809537