This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?
Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.
True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.
No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.
17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ? Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
Yep. This.
And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.
That is why the WA could not be divorced from the PD. A PD that was significantly softer, with Single Market alignment and Customs Union might have passed the Commons. May and the Tories could not be trusted on these so the opposition were right to vote against.
All water under the bridge now. The loonies are now in charge.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?
Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.
True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.
No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.
17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ? Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
The scale of the constitutional disaster that is Brexit is insufficiently realised. There are no good, or in fact sustainable, solutions available to us right now. This includes a second referendum, cancellation and Norway. Norway requires accepting EU regulation and oversight with no input or debate. The UK isn't Norway and I don't see outsourcing a large chunk of our economic and diplomatic policy to a third party being acceptable, particularly in the light of that Leave vote. May's Deal wasn't Norway and implied a relatively hard Brexit once the unicorns are swept away. But like Norway it did accept a Withdrawal Agreement and transition period
Continuing political and economic integration with the rest of the EU was not a good or sustainable option either. It was always going to provoke a reaction, eventually, because it was taking people in a direction they didn't want to go.
Mr. Recidivist, but by what Parliamentary means would that happen?
The government can't force through something that is widely unpopular. Remember the poll tax. As the current thread shows, even the governing party is crumbling in the face of this crisis. Its majority is hanging by a thread. Can we really go through with something so contentious against this backdrop? Remember most people no longer believe we are actually leaving.
The key thing to await is for sitting Conservative MPs to make the same decision as DH, TSE, Big G etc. We may not have to wait much longer.
If even 15 or 20 Conservative MPs chose to leave, it would open the door for Johnson to reach an electoral accommodation with Farage that would allow him and other Brexit Party members to contest the those seats with no Conservative standing against them. It is even conceivable that Farage could be persuaded move to merge the Brexit Party into the Conservatives should such an offer be made.
All very well but the Tories have traditionally been as much the parry if the nation state and the family as the party of business (Indeed in the 18th and 19th centuries the Tories were the party of the landed gentry and the Whigs and Liberals were the party of business and the merchant classes) the Tories only became the party of business as Labour, the party of socialism, replaced the Liberals in the 20th century as the main Tory opponents.
I would also point out that current polling clearly shows the Tories fate depends on delivering Brexit, if the Tories extend again they will be replaced by a populist Brexit Party as the main party of the right and fall to third.
I would also point out that while austerity was needed after the 2010 general election after 9 years the deficit has now fallen, as the 2017 general election showed voters were fed up of a diet of austerity and May's 'No magic money tree' statement and plans for higher taxes like the dementia tax and with Corbyn and May both Remainers and promising a similar direction on Brexit and Corbyn fighting an anti austerity line Labour almost won and the Tories lost their majority.
To win the next general election then the Tories need a Leaver to lead them ie Boris on a firm commitment to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal and also to promise a clear tax cut, more money for the NHS etc line to have any chance of an overall majority
Hypothetical polls like that are of far less value than you give to them. Things are moving so quickly and the unexpected may happen at any time. The chances of people's previous responses to hypothetical situations being of much relevance to wherever we are heading is slim.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
PB is not the country and tends to be full of fiscally conservative, socially liberal, Remainers or soft Brexiteers with far fewer socially conservative, hard Brexiteers
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
And now I really am falling off my chair.
I do sympathise with anyone who breaks up any kind of long term relationship.
It may be cold comfort to you (and David), but you join the ranks of most of the rest of the public, most of whom never affiliate to a political party and few of whom feel strongly attached to one. After a while, you enjoy the sense of independence.
I am sure you are right Alastair
I have tried to give Boris a chance but David's article coincided with Dominic Cummings arrogant attitude 'live' on Sky and I just cannot be a party to Cummings attitude or no deal
Be sure to write a letter to CCHQ, however short. Reports of resignations will surely feed through into the party's evaluation of events.
I shall be writing to CCHQ with copies to my local association and AMs
I’m sure they shall quake in their boots.
Baaaaaaaaah.
Maybe they won't and that is why I do not want to be a party to this madness
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
A reassuring post. Too much Alice in Wonderland at the moment. Don't ever change TGOHF or we'll all have to.
A memorable header David. Up there with Alastair's 'Argentinian' one mentioned by cyclefree yesterday. There have been many good ones but few that will be remembered in years to come. I think this will.
Today's, and Richard Nabavi's header a couple of weeks ago, are important in their own right. The Conservative party glacier is calving.
err doesnt this simply mean the next leader will be even rightier ?
As per your logic, the consequence of Britain leaving the EU will be that the EU becomes yet more Eurocratic (it's already been happening in the interim). This does not seem a great development either, for either the EU or Britain.
It simply accelerates the underlying trend, the problem then becomes how much does this upset the membership
Was that a response to my post or your own?
both
we are living increasingly in an age when people dont want to compromise
David, your contributions to this site are one of the main reasons for coming here. However, on this occasion, I do not have very much sympathy for you.
When Theresa May became leader and PM she said that "no deal is better than a bad deal". You did not resign then. Furthermore, taking as fact an unattributed line in a newspaper to support your dislike for the current leader and PM is not something I would associate with a mind as sharp as yours.
I feel the same way towards pro-EU Tories as I do to moderate Labour members. You tolerated people in your party who held views that were incompatible with your own. You cannot complain when they take power. To be fair at least you have left the party rather than sniping as many moderate Labour MPs do. And given your talents I'd suggest that you would very much be an asset to another party.
I have argued myself that no deal was better than a bad (intolerable) deal. Logically, it has to be so otherwise you just end up having to accept whatever's given from the other side. But while the WA wasn't a great deal, it was and is better than no deal. I also suspect that despite the EU's words, there might have been scope to address some of the issues of greatest concern.
It is not merely the Times story of itself which prompted the final break; it was that in conjunction with Cummings entire history of operating in politics. I absolutely believe he could counsel that - and it's notable that the story hasn't been denied.
Of course I tolerated people I disagree with within the Tories. Under FPTP, you have to be a broad church if you want to win - and winning is necessary. However, it's not just that the other wing is now in ascendancy; it's that it seeks to entirely ignore my own. The alternative system - PR and coalitions afterwards - just means tolerating people you disagree with via a different route. Short of dictatorship, there's no way to avoid that. Nor should there be.
This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?
Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.
True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.
No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.
17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ? Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
Yep. This.
Aery close customs alignment on that.
That is why the WA could not be divorced from the PD. A PD that was significantly softer, with Single Market alignment and Customs Union might have passed the Commons. May and the Tories could not be trusted on these so the opposition were right to vote against.
All water under the bridge now. The loonies are now in charge.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Personally, I am not too bothered by No Deal. It may well be the shortest route to the destruction of populism.
The PD is not a blank sheet of paper though, it sets out the objectives for the second phase talks, which are on a short timescale. The content matters.
On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.
Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
You’ve left too?
Yes.
See my post at 6:50.
Woah. I missed that.
Shame. Hope you come back soon.
So do I.
Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.
No, extending Article 50 puts us on course to put Corbyn in No 10 and while we might rejoin the single market eventually we will not rejoin the EU and Euro
Brexit has created a highly motivated pro-EU segment of the electorate. Even if the leavers manage to work out how to leave we'll be rejoining. I think we'll probably sign up for the Euro as well. When the dust settles I think even the Conservatives will come round.
Mr. Recidivist, but that's the thing. The Government doesn't have to force anything through. The Commons voted to leave the EU, and against the deal (repeatedly). No deal is the legal default.
Those opposed to it need to do something in order for it to be prevented. The onus is on them.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow as a result of No Deal. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
I think Boris's approach is dictated by electoral logic rather than any ideological commitment to a no deal. The absolute priority is to puncture the Brexit Party vote, anything else invites Corbyn into Downing St. It's where we are. A thousand curses on all those proponents of constitutional referendums. Ironic if it all leads to another convulsion north of the border.
I have mixed feelings about all of this. Whereas the likes of TSE and BigG could easily have a home in the LDs (and I appreciate why they may feel they don't or can't), David and Rochdale Pioneer probably don't and are homeless. They are sensible people with sensible logical views and those views need to be argued. I might not agree with them, but it is healthy and good for democracy and who knows they might be right and I might be wrong. It has been known. To often in fact!
However with the current FPTP system I am conflicted because I want that changed because I think is is unhealthy and more importantly morally wrong in a democracy. The only way I can see that happening is if the 2 main parties are broken. Hence my mixed feeling.
Good luck to all who have felt the need to resign from their party on principle.
I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.
I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.
Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...
I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!
However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.
Isn't it illegal under GDPR to retain personal information for that length of time?
No. GDPR does not set any time limits for holding personal information, although it does require data controllers to have a data retention policy setting out how long it will be kept.
I would imagine they are processing SouthamObserver's data on the basis of legitimate interests, i.e. they have a legitimate interest in processing his data which outweighs any impact on his interests, rights and freedoms. That means they can continue to use his personal information for as long as they want regardless of the fact he is no longer a member of the party.
If SouthamObserver asks them to erase his data as opposed to simply leaving the party they must do so unless they can argue that processing it is necessary for them to exercise their right to freedom of expression. He can also object to them processing his data but, if they are, as I would expect, using legitimate interests, they may be able to argue that they have compelling legitimate grounds which override his objection. I am not saying their arguments in either case would succeed but those get outs are available if the organisation is processing data under legitimate interests.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
The followiest of followers follows.
In a decision as difficult as this that is just plainly unkind and unnnecessary
Not at all. You’re a sheep.
And what are you ? A sheep worrier ?
Someone who makes his own mind up and doesn’t blow about with every change in the wind, and what’s popular on the given day.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David. Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision. I shall follow your resignation with my own later today I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave. It is a deeply depressing time
But the vote to leave was subverted before it even took place, Mr BigG. Thanks to the likes of ABDP Johnson and that unscrupulous Cummings, among others.
Cummings on Sky this morning was arrogant and appalling
I have agonised over my membership for some time but the threat to the Union is by far the most serious issue to both my wife and I. We are 100% pro the union due to our deep family ties and find the disregard for the Union wholly unacceptable
Furthermore, the threat to subvert the HOC from an advisor in Downing Street beggars belief
I support brexit but will never agree to no deal
Davids article, Dominic Cummings appearance on live tv, and the constant threat to the union makes it impossible for me to remain a member of the party
You may say Cummings is being misunderstood. I say that he's dangerous, duplicitous, and despite @rcs1000, I also maintain from bitter personal experience he's thick as pigshit and as arrogant as Trotsky. He's more than capable of trying it. Indeed, the mere fact that such a loathsome, dangerous and dishonest figure is in a senior position should set alarm bells ringing all over the country. I wouldn't trust him to run a village post office, yet he is in effect one of the most powerful men in the land.
As was noted upthread, if Corbyn or Milne had speculated aloud in this fashion, good Conservatives would rightly go ballistic. Why should it be different just because Johnson wears a blue rosette?
Because no one seriously believes he'd do it just to cling to power. It's short term measures to force us out of Europe, without which the Tory party gets destroyed at the next election anyway. It's like criticising a surgeon for cutting his patients open.
You may not believe it. I am not so sure. If they can hang on to power to secure No Deal, they're quite capable of hanging on to it to try and avoid a Corbyn government.
Maybe. Personally I'd have thought self-professed Conservatives would have hung on till November just to make sure Johnson really was intent on steering the course they fear.
As far as I can tell, all he's actually done so far is find a whacking great ambiguity in the FTPA and announced his intention to exploit it. The Times has misunderstood, and now everyone's gone mad. Johnson is under no obligation to resign just because it buggers up Grieve's latest cunning plan to subvert the referendum result if he doesn't. If the Remain lobby want to remove Johnson without a GE then first they need a candidate with support from an actual majority of MPs.
It's too easy to sit on the sidelines and argue that someone should have left when X or Y happened. People can be unhappy about the course of their party and with some of its big decisions for a while - but inertia and the human nature to seek out reasons to justify an existing position are very powerful.
Then something small might happen that shifts your mindset sufficiently to see things more clearly, and you decide to act. It'll be the same for those MPs surely weighing up the options, with the additional factors in their case of wanting to time things to make a difference and a natural preference to co-ordinate with like-minded colleagues.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a batch of defections very early in September.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
Jesus - Competition Law is enshrined in tablets of stone in this industry - the idea that we are dropping chunks of it to ensure continuity of food supply shows just how bad things are
Trump and the GOP, Corbyn and Labour, Johnson and Tories. There is a pattern here of old party structures being taken over by populist claques. Uncomfortable for the traditional supporters certainly, but perhaps a necessary process of renewal. The parties are dancing to the tunes of the extremes within them, compromise is impossible and the centre cannot hold. In Britain this is driven by the remorseless logic of the Brexit process. Will we see the old parties re-emerge when the dust settles?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Mr. Recidivist, but that's the thing. The Government doesn't have to force anything through. The Commons voted to leave the EU, and against the deal (repeatedly). No deal is the legal default.
Those opposed to it need to do something in order for it to be prevented. The onus is on them.
It remains a choice, and the government remains responsible. I know he is doing his best to find someone else to blame right now. But if he is the PM on the 31st of October he is the one who took us out and has to own what happens on the 1st of November. I think he'll back out.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Because they didn’t agree with the government policy?
If even 15 or 20 Conservative MPs chose to leave, it would open the door for Johnson to reach an electoral accommodation with Farage that would allow him and other Brexit Party members to contest the those seats with no Conservative standing against them. It is even conceivable that Farage could be persuaded move to merge the Brexit Party into the Conservatives should such an offer be made.
I did wonder about that but on the basis that where you sit determines where you stand I guess the seats held by Tory moderates mostly aren't very BXP-friendly.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
I would also point out that current polling clearly shows the Tories fate depends on delivering Brexit, if the Tories extend again they will be replaced by a populist Brexit Party as the main party of the right and fall to third.
The Tories ARE the Brexit party. The entryists and loonies have seen to that. In my opinion, Farage's Brexit Party simply lacked the courage to call themselves The Brownshirt Party
If the moderate One Nation types left the "Conservative" Party and formed a centre-right grouping, I would seriously consider voting for them expecially if they were pro-EU, but the current fascists masquerading as government? Never.
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
the EU set the date
And they will delay it again if necessary but it would be useful if we stopped dicking around. For one, why are all our MPs on holiday?
Wow. Bombshell from Mr Herdson. I am sorry that he has been pushed to this point.
What a shocking and depressing state our two main parties are in.
Don't forget what Blair and Cameron gave us - over a trillion of government borrowing, continuous trade deficit since 1998, falling home ownership, stagnant productivity, bank crashes, uncontrolled immigration, Middle Eastern warmongering, generational inequality and government by mendacity and deceit.
Boris and Corbyn and dreadful but they are a consequence not a cause of the political failings.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
And now I really am falling off my chair.
I do sympathise with anyone who breaks up any kind of long term relationship.
It may be cold comfort to you (and David), but you join the ranks of most of the rest of the public, most of whom never affiliate to a political party and few of whom feel strongly attached to one. After a while, you enjoy the sense of independence.
I am sure you are right Alastair
I have tried to give Boris a chance but David's article coincided with Dominic Cummings arrogant attitude 'live' on Sky and I just cannot be a party to Cummings attitude or no deal
Be sure to write a letter to CCHQ, however short. Reports of resignations will surely feed through into the party's evaluation of events.
I shall be writing to CCHQ with copies to my local association and AMs
I’m sure they shall quake in their boots.
Baaaaaaaaah.
Maybe they won't and that is why I do not want to be a party to this madness
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the EU due to diesel fumes and the commission protects the car industry
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
I would also point out that current polling clearly shows the Tories fate depends on delivering Brexit, if the Tories extend again they will be replaced by a populist Brexit Party as the main party of the right and fall to third.
The Tories ARE the Brexit party. The entryists and loonies have seen to that. In my opinion, Farage's Brexit Party simply lacked the courage to call themselves The Brownshirt Party
If the moderate One Nation types left the "Conservative" Party and formed a centre-right grouping, I would seriously consider voting for them expecially if they were pro-EU, but the current fascists masquerading as government? Never.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the EU due to diesel fumes and the commission protects the car industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
Mr. Recidivist, but by what Parliamentary means would that happen?
The government can't force through something that is widely unpopular. Remember the poll tax. As the current thread shows, even the governing party is crumbling in the face of this crisis. Its majority is hanging by a thread. Can we really go through with something so contentious against this backdrop? Remember most people no longer believe we are actually leaving.
But the Poll tax was forced through? Even if it was reversed a few years later.
The government that forced it through had a large majority. This one doesn’t.
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
the EU set the date
And they will delay it again if necessary but it would be useful if we stopped dicking around. For one, why are all our MPs on holiday?
Jesus - Competition Law is enshrined in tablets of stone in this industry - the idea that we are dropping chunks of it to ensure continuity of food supply shows just how bad things are
Realistically, no one really has a very good handle on how bad a no deal exit might be. It's quite possible that the short term consequences will be considerably less painful than predicted - but also less painful than the medium term consequences. Danny Finkelstein has a sensible article on that in this morning's Times.
The only certainty is that it will not be cost free. And its possibility was roundly denied during the Leave campaign.
I have mixed feelings about all of this. Whereas the likes of TSE and BigG could easily have a home in the LDs (and I appreciate why they may feel they don't or can't), David and Rochdale Pioneer probably don't and are homeless. They are sensible people with sensible logical views and those views need to be argued. I might not agree with them, but it is healthy and good for democracy and who knows they might be right and I might be wrong. It has been known. To often in fact!
However with the current FPTP system I am conflicted because I want that changed because I think is is unhealthy and more importantly morally wrong in a democracy. The only way I can see that happening is if the 2 main parties are broken. Hence my mixed feeling.
Good luck to all who have felt the need to resign from their party on principle.
In a PR system you generally vote for whoever represents your own views the best, rely on the system to deliver appropriate representation and then for your representatives to best argue their corner in whatever parliament arises as a result. Our system on the other hand drives people toward the lesser of evils.
David and Rochdale may well struggle to find another party that represents their views as well as their previous homes. Three things may happen: they enjoy the independence of being freed from membership and revel as future political freethinkers; their party changes (or the importance of current conflicts slowly fades) such that in time they will be happy to rejoin; or once freed from having to self-justify their previous position their political views start to change in ways they cannot yet foresee, such that signing up with another party becomes possible.
Meanwhile it ought to be possible for anyone interested in politics to identify the lesser of evils in terms of who they can actually vote for in their locality. Voting for a party doesn't mean you have to join!
Well done David - action in defence of a point of principle is always admirable.
I would slightly take issue on one of your points - that of blaming the Cons solely for no deal. As @Currystardog points out, what would you have them do? The Conservatives brought a sensible deal and the Fuckwits in the party voted against (I am of the view that the opposition's job is to oppose and hence I leave them out of this).
So impasse. Except, the people told the government that it wants to leave the EU and the govt is obliged to follow that instruction. It tried to do it the sensible way but now has few options including leaving with no deal. That is not on the Conservatives. It is on the fuckwits (small f) who voted to Leave. They voted to leave and we haven't left and we must leave. That's just the reality of the situation.
So now the contention is that the Fuckwits have taken over the party. Perhaps. Perhaps not, IMO it is a bit of a 24-hr news cycle thing to resign right now when the whole process hasn't been played out yet plus I'm damned if I am going to let Dominic Cummings force me out.
So I will wait to see how the next, oh 86 days goes before I make my decision. But I admire yours.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
May made it a party political issue by refusing to reach out across Parliament until it was too late.
Another consequence of a terrible Conservative Party policy.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the EU due to diesel fumes and the commission protects the car industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
May made it a party political issue by refusing to reach out across Parliament until it was too late.
Another consequence of a terrible Conservative Party policy.
So how are Labour doing at the moment and what is their Brexit Policy?
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
the EU set the date
And they will delay it again if necessary but it would be useful if we stopped dicking around. For one, why are all our MPs on holiday?
you assume they will but theres no guarantee
Then we revoke, at least temporarily. It is all in our own hands. We are only impotent after a crash out.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Mrs May's biggest mistake was in not setting out a genuinely cross-party approach to Brexit, immediately on losing her majority.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
It was pitiful seeing her try to suddenly invite the opposition into talks after years of not only refusing to engage but actively progressing the whole enterprise as an internal party political project.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
May made it a party political issue by refusing to reach out across Parliament until it was too late.
Another consequence of a terrible Conservative Party policy.
So how are Labour doing at the moment and what is their Brexit Policy?
Jesus - Competition Law is enshrined in tablets of stone in this industry - the idea that we are dropping chunks of it to ensure continuity of food supply shows just how bad things are
Thankfully, those inflicting this on us will be fine. Phew!
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
If Labour had voted for the WA I would have thought it would now be Labour that was tearing itself apart?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Mrs May's biggest mistake was in not setting out a genuinely cross-party approach to Brexit, immediately on losing her majority.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
Of course. It was a fucking stupid thing to do but hey it wouldn't be the most or only stupid thing a politician has done over the past 200 years. She got there in the end with the WA. And the idiots (in her own party) failed her. But perhaps as we have noted that was their plan because here we are a couple of months ahead of their ultimate victory and everyone is scratching their heads to work out how to thwart it.
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
the EU set the date
And they will delay it again if necessary but it would be useful if we stopped dicking around. For one, why are all our MPs on holiday?
you assume they will but theres no guarantee
Then we revoke, at least temporarily. It is all in our own hands. We are only impotent after a crash out.
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
At least there aren't any Welsh speakers round his way, so it is only the remainers and some of the LGBTs that he's telling to go and vote LibDem?
Jesus - Competition Law is enshrined in tablets of stone in this industry - the idea that we are dropping chunks of it to ensure continuity of food supply shows just how bad things are
Thankfully, those inflicting this on us will be fine. Phew!
Just to say, thanks for the comments, sympathy and understanding. I won't be responding individually (it'd take far too long and I don't have the time). Besides, I think I've probably covered the main points in the article / resignation letter.
David.
Your decision and your article comprehensively demolishes the present path of the party and I applaud your decision.
I shall follow your resignation with my own later today
I, like you, will become homeless as I could never support Corbyn and his associates nor the lib dems as they try to subvert the vote to leave.
It is a deeply depressing time
And now I really am falling off my chair.
I do sympathise with anyone who breaks up any kind of long term relationship.
It may be cold comfort to you (and David), but you join the ranks of most of the rest of the public, most of whom never affiliate to a political party and few of whom feel strongly attached to one. After a while, you enjoy the sense of independence.
I am sure you are right Alastair
I have tried to give Boris a chance but David's article coincided with Dominic Cummings arrogant attitude 'live' on Sky and I just cannot be a party to Cummings attitude or no deal
Be sure to write a letter to CCHQ, however short. Reports of resignations will surely feed through into the party's evaluation of events.
I shall be writing to CCHQ with copies to my local association and AMs
I’m sure they shall quake in their boots.
Baaaaaaaaah.
Maybe they won't and that is why I do not want to be a party to this madness
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
I accept all of that but we must start talking.
May tried that after her deal was rejected first time. The EU will not budge
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the EU due to diesel fumes and the commission protects the car industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Mrs May's biggest mistake was in not setting out a genuinely cross-party approach to Brexit, immediately on losing her majority.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
No.
May’s mistake was laying out a cross party and cross nation approach immediately.
Her great failure was not to realise that a sweeping revolution that entails a multi-year project needs more than 52% of the electorate.
She then doubled down by rhetorically positioning herself with the extremists in autumn through spring 16/17.
I feel like May wanted to be a great servant to this country, but these fatal miscalculations helped to destroy it.
I would also point out that current polling clearly shows the Tories fate depends on delivering Brexit, if the Tories extend again they will be replaced by a populist Brexit Party as the main party of the right and fall to third.
The Tories ARE the Brexit party. The entryists and loonies have seen to that. In my opinion, Farage's Brexit Party simply lacked the courage to call themselves The Brownshirt Party
If the moderate One Nation types left the "Conservative" Party and formed a centre-right grouping, I would seriously consider voting for them expecially if they were pro-EU, but the current fascists masquerading as government? Never.
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
the EU set the date
And they will delay it again if necessary but it would be useful if we stopped dicking around. For one, why are all our MPs on holiday?
you assume they will but theres no guarantee
Then we revoke, at least temporarily. It is all in our own hands. We are only impotent after a crash out.
I would also point out that current polling clearly shows the Tories fate depends on delivering Brexit, if the Tories extend again they will be replaced by a populist Brexit Party as the main party of the right and fall to third.
The Tories ARE the Brexit party. The entryists and loonies have seen to that. In my opinion, Farage's Brexit Party simply lacked the courage to call themselves The Brownshirt Party
If the moderate One Nation types left the "Conservative" Party and formed a centre-right grouping, I would seriously consider voting for them expecially if they were pro-EU, but the current fascists masquerading as government? Never.
Seriously mate what do you think the Current Government should do??? The EU will not renegotiate Parliament has rejected the WA three times We had a referendum and the result was to leave. All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything. As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK. Do you have a new idea?
The referendum made no requirement of leaving by a certain date. We should hold an election, not under the gun to the head threat of no deal, and see what happens. This is how our democracy has always worked.
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
the EU set the date
And they will delay it again if necessary but it would be useful if we stopped dicking around. For one, why are all our MPs on holiday?
you assume they will but theres no guarantee
Then we revoke, at least temporarily. It is all in our own hands. We are only impotent after a crash out.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Sorry to hear you're leaving the Conservatives - they need more people like you & Mr Navabi in their ranks to get them back onto the right path. This currently feels very much like what life would have been like if IDS and his merry band of hooligans had been in power - but they weren't, because Labour was led by Tony Blair. Both major parties flight to their extremes have reinforced each other - we must rely on the electorate to reacquaint them brutally with their senses....
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Because there are in some cases decades-long structures dedicated to addressing these issues. Structures to address no deal Brexit are there none. Or few. And those that there may be are headed by Stephen Barclay god help us.
Mr. Brooke, I'd suggest the country being led by a man who marches under Stalin banners would not be an improvement.
I'd also ask again what those MPs so aghast that the consequences of their actions are approaching intend to do. Suppose Johnson actually brought back May's deal. Would they back it?
Technical point, Morris, but could it actually be taken before Parliament? Bercow might block it because it has been taken before and voted on. It would have to be a different deal, I think. (Not sure, of course; not really my subject.)
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Jesus - Competition Law is enshrined in tablets of stone in this industry - the idea that we are dropping chunks of it to ensure continuity of food supply shows just how bad things are
Thankfully, those inflicting this on us will be fine. Phew!
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Because there are in some cases decades-long structures dedicated to addressing these issues. Structures to address no deal Brexit are there none. Or few. And those that there may be are headed by Stephen Barclay god help us.
what if the decades long structurea are part iof the problem ?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Mrs May's biggest mistake was in not setting out a genuinely cross-party approach to Brexit, immediately on losing her majority.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
Of course. It was a fucking stupid thing to do but hey it wouldn't be the most or only stupid thing a politician has done over the past 200 years. She got there in the end with the WA. And the idiots (in her own party) failed her. But perhaps as we have noted that was their plan because here we are a couple of months ahead of their ultimate victory and everyone is scratching their heads to work out how to thwart it.
Certainly the ERG is closer to its objective than ever before. But simply wrecking everything and waiting is hardly the result of genius planning, being obvious and predictable from the beginning. Whereas May appeared to think she could win them over to a compromise in advance, with her strident speeches, futile red lines.
17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ? Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
People who voted Remain and support the EU but who could live with EFTA status with a special commitment to the GFA were blown out of the water by May and Timothy with all their red line nonsense. We (I'll include myself in this group, despite being avidly pro-EU; I can live with honouring a mass vote, however ill-conceived and manipulated) never got a look in.
The Tories and their BXP Ltd / IEA masters own this shitstorm.
A heartfelt piece from David for which, as always, many thanks. As with Richard N the other day, I fully recognise what a difficult and emotional decision this must have been for you.
How then to respond? What is now abundantly and profoundly clear is the 2016 referendum is dragging this country down like a pair of concrete galoshes. We are paralysed by it, obsessed by it and defined by it. It has been subverted into an article of stone so perverse its implementation is deemed more important than the very real and credible risks that implementation would engender.
I can only conclude it has invoked a form of insanity where nothing matters more than throwing off the chains of the hated EU (hardly an occupying army) irrespective of the damage, cost and harm to ourselves in so doing.
Democracy isn't some pure ideal to be worshipped or polished or placed in amber - it is an integral part of who we are but it doesn't or shouldn't define us. Yes, Churchill was right but he too recognised its imperfections as have those who railed against referenda for example. Democracy can be divisive and destructive as we are seeing and have seen.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.
daft
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
*as a result of no deal
I thought that would have been clear.
Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already
we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.
If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?
Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.
He raises a fair point - there are medicine shortages unrelated to Brexit. The NHS declines to provide certain care or medicines regularly.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Mrs May's biggest mistake was in not setting out a genuinely cross-party approach to Brexit, immediately on losing her majority.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
Of course. It was a fucking stupid thing to do but hey it wouldn't be the most or only stupid thing a politician has done over the past 200 years. She got there in the end with the WA. And the idiots (in her own party) failed her. But perhaps as we have noted that was their plan because here we are a couple of months ahead of their ultimate victory and everyone is scratching their heads to work out how to thwart it.
Certainly the ERG is closer to its objective than ever before. But simply wrecking everything and waiting is hardly the result of genius planning, being obvious and predictable from the beginning. Whereas May appeared to think she could win them over to a compromise in advance, with her strident speeches, futile red lines.
Yeah she was an idiot, no question but, after exhausting all the other worse options, got there eventually. ERG strategy? Perhaps they took route one and realised they only had to sit tight. Have we ever heard any of them (those that held out to the end) talk about any kind of deal they might support?
They aren't, from canvassing experience I have seen far more 2017 Tory voters shifting to the Brexit Party until Brexit is delivered than those saying they are cannot vote for the Tories or will vote LD because of a No Deal Brexit.
The obvious problem there is, once you deliver Brexit and the BXP guys go back to BXP or whatever they'll be calling it, who do you have left.
Why does anyone take HYUFD’s canvassing seriously when he can’t even get elected to a parish council in the beating heart of Brexit-land.
I got over 600 votes last May and increased the Tory vote in 2018 in a LD held ward
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.
The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.
Reminds me of a joke -
How do you know someone is a vegan ?
Don’t worry they will have already told you.
I think you’re being very unfair on David. He really isn’t like that.
I’m upset and shocked too but we don’t need to snipe at him. He’ll feel awful as it is.
It’s not personal - but “3” - rumours of spending - this stuff has been going on for decades - a budget is a package not a leaked headline - and it hasn’t even happened yet.
Am struggling to see an evidence based argument.
Any time a senior figure within a government starts speculating on how they can subvert the democratic and/or constitutional process to stay in office should scare the living shite out of any democrat. Certainly it should cause them to walk away from the government in question.
You may say Cummings is being misunderstood. I say that he's dangerous, duplicitous, and despite @rcs1000, I also maintain from bitter personal experience he's thick as pigshit and as arrogant as Trotsky. He's more than capable of trying it. Indeed, the mere fact that such a loathsome, dangerous and dishonest figure is in a senior position should set alarm bells ringing all over the country. I wouldn't trust him to run a village post office, yet he is in effect one of the most powerful men in the land.
As was noted upthread, if Corbyn or Milne had speculated aloud in this fashion, good Conservatives would rightly go ballistic. Why should it be different just because Johnson wears a blue rosette?
From Timothy & Hill to Cummings - why are senior Tories so easily enslaved to their advisers?
Because they've forgotten - or never learnt- how to think for themselves?
Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other
Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
So why did the Labour Party vote against the WA?
Do you really need a lesson on how our adversarial parliamentary system is supposed to work?
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
Surely Brexit should have been above normal Party Politics? After all the majority of Labour MPs voted for Article 50. I think Labour would have voted against whatever deal she bought back. The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
Mrs May's biggest mistake was in not setting out a genuinely cross-party approach to Brexit, immediately on losing her majority.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
No.
May’s mistake was laying out a cross party and cross nation approach immediately.
Her great failure was not to realise that a sweeping revolution that entails a multi-year project needs more than 52% of the electorate.
She then doubled down by rhetorically positioning herself with the extremists in autumn through spring 16/17.
I feel like May wanted to be a great servant to this country, but these fatal miscalculations helped to destroy it.
Agree. There was an opportunity when May came to power to pursue something that reflected the 52-48 split. I think hardly anyone was talking of remain then, I certainly didn't think remain would happen, nor think it justified despite having voted remain. There was surely a way to gain concensus for a sensible Brexit at that point.
The hard Brexit (in those days what May suggested was understood as 'hard' Brexit, I know now nothing less than no deal will do) posturing alienated remainers, emboldened the loony wing and divided parliament and the country. Even May's deal with a softer political declaration could perhaps have passed.
Comments
Wow. Bombshell from Mr Herdson. I am sorry that he has been pushed to this point.
What a shocking and depressing state our two main parties are in.
PB is not the country and tends to be full of fiscally conservative, socially liberal, Remainers or soft Brexiteers with far fewer socially conservative, hard Brexiteers
The EU will not renegotiate
Parliament has rejected the WA three times
We had a referendum and the result was to leave.
All Parliament had to do was pass the WA. It didn't and as the indicative votes showed there is no majority in Parliament for anything.
As we live in a democracy we must respect the vote of the referendum so we must leave. What Grieve and Co are doing is so awful, it goes completely against the democratic institution of the UK.
Do you have a new idea?
we are living increasingly in an age when people dont want to compromise
It is not merely the Times story of itself which prompted the final break; it was that in conjunction with Cummings entire history of operating in politics. I absolutely believe he could counsel that - and it's notable that the story hasn't been denied.
Of course I tolerated people I disagree with within the Tories. Under FPTP, you have to be a broad church if you want to win - and winning is necessary. However, it's not just that the other wing is now in ascendancy; it's that it seeks to entirely ignore my own. The alternative system - PR and coalitions afterwards - just means tolerating people you disagree with via a different route. Short of dictatorship, there's no way to avoid that. Nor should there be.
The PD is not a blank sheet of paper though, it sets out the objectives for the second phase talks, which are on a short timescale. The content matters.
It’s depressing, but it really is the case now that the Tories have sloughed off their traditional base in mad pursuit of flaky and unstable populism.
The question is, what next?
Are we supposed to sit back and watch Johnson and Corbyn destroy the country?
Those opposed to it need to do something in order for it to be prevented. The onus is on them.
Boris is ultimately responsible for any suffering, poverty, pain, or deaths that follow as a result of No Deal. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do.
'The growing dread of a Scots unionist'
https://tinyurl.com/yyec9xky
However with the current FPTP system I am conflicted because I want that changed because I think is is unhealthy and more importantly morally wrong in a democracy. The only way I can see that happening is if the 2 main parties are broken. Hence my mixed feeling.
Good luck to all who have felt the need to resign from their party on principle.
I would imagine they are processing SouthamObserver's data on the basis of legitimate interests, i.e. they have a legitimate interest in processing his data which outweighs any impact on his interests, rights and freedoms. That means they can continue to use his personal information for as long as they want regardless of the fact he is no longer a member of the party.
If SouthamObserver asks them to erase his data as opposed to simply leaving the party they must do so unless they can argue that processing it is necessary for them to exercise their right to freedom of expression. He can also object to them processing his data but, if they are, as I would expect, using legitimate interests, they may be able to argue that they have compelling legitimate grounds which override his objection. I am not saying their arguments in either case would succeed but those get outs are available if the organisation is processing data under legitimate interests.
I have agonised over my membership for some time but the threat to the Union is by far the most serious issue to both my wife and I. We are 100% pro the union due to our deep family ties and find the disregard for the Union wholly unacceptable
Furthermore, the threat to subvert the HOC from an advisor in Downing Street beggars belief
I support brexit but will never agree to no deal
Davids article, Dominic Cummings appearance on live tv, and the constant threat to the union makes it impossible for me to remain a member of the party
Then something small might happen that shifts your mindset sufficiently to see things more clearly, and you decide to act. It'll be the same for those MPs surely weighing up the options, with the additional factors in their case of wanting to time things to make a difference and a natural preference to co-ordinate with like-minded colleagues.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a batch of defections very early in September.
are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?
who's reponsible for it ?
The only reason to leave by November, no ifs or buts, is for Conservative Party party-political reasons, as @HYUFD demonstrates on a daily basis.
They are putting party before country.
I thought that would have been clear.
You might as well ask why a defence lawyer presents arguments in support of a guilty man.
If the moderate One Nation types left the "Conservative" Party and formed a centre-right grouping, I would seriously consider voting for them expecially if they were pro-EU, but the current fascists masquerading as government? Never.
Boris and Corbyn and dreadful but they are a consequence not a cause of the political failings.
I've long said that Boris Johnson was unfit to be in the Cabinet, let alone PM. My suspicion is he's a fool.
The daft thing is by playing party politics Labour has cost itself massively. If they had voted for the WA they would now be ahead in the polls as the Tories would have torn themselves apart.
we have hundreds of thousands of premature deaths in the EU due to diesel fumes and the commission protects the car industry
suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece
I mean seriously ? :
My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.
It's quite possible that the short term consequences will be considerably less painful than predicted - but also less painful than the medium term consequences. Danny Finkelstein has a sensible article on that in this morning's Times.
The only certainty is that it will not be cost free. And its possibility was roundly denied during the Leave campaign.
David and Rochdale may well struggle to find another party that represents their views as well as their previous homes. Three things may happen: they enjoy the independence of being freed from membership and revel as future political freethinkers; their party changes (or the importance of current conflicts slowly fades) such that in time they will be happy to rejoin; or once freed from having to self-justify their previous position their political views start to change in ways they cannot yet foresee, such that signing up with another party becomes possible.
Meanwhile it ought to be possible for anyone interested in politics to identify the lesser of evils in terms of who they can actually vote for in their locality. Voting for a party doesn't mean you have to join!
I would slightly take issue on one of your points - that of blaming the Cons solely for no deal. As @Currystardog points out, what would you have them do? The Conservatives brought a sensible deal and the Fuckwits in the party voted against (I am of the view that the opposition's job is to oppose and hence I leave them out of this).
So impasse. Except, the people told the government that it wants to leave the EU and the govt is obliged to follow that instruction. It tried to do it the sensible way but now has few options including leaving with no deal. That is not on the Conservatives. It is on the fuckwits (small f) who voted to Leave. They voted to leave and we haven't left and we must leave. That's just the reality of the situation.
So now the contention is that the Fuckwits have taken over the party. Perhaps. Perhaps not, IMO it is a bit of a 24-hr news cycle thing to resign right now when the whole process hasn't been played out yet plus I'm damned if I am going to let Dominic Cummings force me out.
So I will wait to see how the next, oh 86 days goes before I make my decision. But I admire yours.
Another consequence of a terrible Conservative Party policy.
Even if some of the opposition parties had refused to engage, it would have given her the high ground and attempting to reach out would have made it easier to build support for the MVs when they finally arrived.
It was pitiful seeing her try to suddenly invite the opposition into talks after years of not only refusing to engage but actively progressing the whole enterprise as an internal party political project.
the real world is grey
I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.
That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?
“ No”
OMG HOW ARROGANT!
May’s mistake was laying out a cross party and cross nation approach immediately.
Her great failure was not to realise that a sweeping revolution that entails a multi-year project needs more than 52% of the electorate.
She then doubled down by rhetorically positioning herself with the extremists in autumn through spring 16/17.
I feel like May wanted to be a great servant to this country, but these fatal miscalculations helped to destroy it.
TOPPING’s constant trolling of HYUFD on this is a joy to behold
You couldn't make this up.
Good old Brexit, saving us from unelected bureaucrats...
The Tories and their BXP Ltd / IEA masters own this shitstorm.
A heartfelt piece from David for which, as always, many thanks. As with Richard N the other day, I fully recognise what a difficult and emotional decision this must have been for you.
How then to respond? What is now abundantly and profoundly clear is the 2016 referendum is dragging this country down like a pair of concrete galoshes. We are paralysed by it, obsessed by it and defined by it. It has been subverted into an article of stone so perverse its implementation is deemed more important than the very real and credible risks that implementation would engender.
I can only conclude it has invoked a form of insanity where nothing matters more than throwing off the chains of the hated EU (hardly an occupying army) irrespective of the damage, cost and harm to ourselves in so doing.
Democracy isn't some pure ideal to be worshipped or polished or placed in amber - it is an integral part of who we are but it doesn't or shouldn't define us. Yes, Churchill was right but he too recognised its imperfections as have those who railed against referenda for example. Democracy can be divisive and destructive as we are seeing and have seen.
People die because of this.
Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.
It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.
The hard Brexit (in those days what May suggested was understood as 'hard' Brexit, I know now nothing less than no deal will do) posturing alienated remainers, emboldened the loony wing and divided parliament and the country. Even May's deal with a softer political declaration could perhaps have passed.