I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I would have thought that precipitating a split in the Conservatives, ultimately resulting in more moderate Conservative voters deserting the party, would be to Corbyn's benefit - but then he hasn't always seemed to be the best judge of what is in his best interests, so I accept that it is possible that his visceral anti-Toryism would prevent him from taking that action.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
Not since the last election they haven't. And the DUP opposed it too for good reason.
The ERG are happy for the WA to be dead and happy for there to be No Deal instead. Are Labour?
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
Not since the last election they haven't. And the DUP opposed it too for good reason.
The ERG are happy for the WA to be dead and happy for there to be No Deal instead. Are Labour?
They could have voted for the Withdrawal Agreement and sought customs union membership in the future relationship in the transition period as the political declaration was not legally binding
Looks like the Rail Delivery Group have withdrawn train companies from the scheme.
People in the UK can still buy an Interrail ticket, but tickets won't be valid for Interrailers outside the UK travelling here. An utterly stupid decision.
Why utterly stupid? Isn’t it just a business analysis?
It actively discourages tourism, especially beyond London.
Scott still believes the path to government for the Ruth Davidson Party and saving the Union is photos of Eck and having a single policy of no to Indy ref II. Crude but...well, not even effective.
So Divot's answer to the question "What would Eck do" is, "Blame Ruth"
Totally unpredictable, never saw that coming, SNP for the win...
Dear Dear you are struggling badly today Scott, your CCHQ update delayed.
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron. Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that? I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem. Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer! I'm not sure one exists...
Lib Dems do not reject democracy, Mr Charles. They do reject fraud and cheating. They believe in fair play, and indeed in fairness generally. And they believe in personal freedom - that is, freedom for everybody.
Government exists, in my opinion, to help promote that and to protect that.
Does that help at all?
They want to ignore the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit. I agree with the sentiments that you post. But in my gut, I don't believe that Swinson will see any problem that can't be regulated. (I don't know her, but know Duncan pretty as we were friends at Uni)
Respect for "the democratically expressed views of the voters over Brexit" is trumped by the need for a fair process in the referendum. I don`t expect you to cheat at cards, but that is what recent leaders of the Conservative Party have done, and they then expect everybody to keep quiet about it and pay up.
There was a fair process in the referendum. Not enough people agreed with you, that is all.
IMO. a Brexit that leaves something on the table for its opponents is more likely to succeed than one that doesn't.
Rip off the bandage, survey the lay of the land and then get trade agreements sorted. No politics. Or go whole hog in.
Both of those are 5-year projects. Both are best achieved whilst remaining in the EU, or in a transition period.
Getting trade agreements "sorted" from a position of abject weakness is just daft. The Canadian's are already distancing themselves from rolling over the EU agreement, which Raab (and others) were telling us was in the bag, as they can now leverage better terms.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
In war, resolution. In defeat, defiance. In victory, magnanimity. In peace, goodwill. - Churchill.
(Well, that's the polite version. There are similar quotes from different people that are more rude)
IMO. a Brexit that leaves something on the table for its opponents is more likely to succeed than one that doesn't.
Rip off the bandage, survey the lay of the land and then get trade agreements sorted. No politics. Or go whole hog in.
Both of those are 5-year projects. Both are best achieved whilst remaining in the EU, or in a transition period.
Getting trade agreements "sorted" from a position of abject weakness is just daft. The Canadian's are already distancing themselves from rolling over the EU agreement, which Raab (and others) were telling us was in the bag, as they can now leverage better terms.
Yes but there is no transition agreement available without the backstop so we have no transition.
If the EU change their minds then great, otherwise the decision is made for us.
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
A fairly liberally minded Tory wouldn't be expected to make a hanger and flogger Home Secretary. It might just be a ruse to attract the extreme right UKIP vote but would someone 'liberally minded' really do that?
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Exactly. It could have supported May if it had been offered in good faith and they had got 1940 levels of representation in govt. It's a shame that opportunity wasn't taken - though nobody would have envisaged just how big a ballsup was being avoided.
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
Until we leave, the sky doesn't fall in and all this drama turns out to be much ado about nothing.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
Ah - progress! Yes - the WA needed to be Labour-friendly to pass. But May was too obstinate to bend her red lines to allow this to happen. Instead she kept chasing ERG votes in a strategy that was doomed to fail.
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted. I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
A fairly liberally minded Tory wouldn't be expected to make a hanger and flogger Home Secretary. It might just be a ruse to attract the extreme right UKIP vote but would someone 'liberally minded' really do that?
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
Yes
And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
Er, he's MP for Dumfries isn't he?
You been asleep for a month Bob, it has been anglified even more than previous disney version , replaced by real Englishmen
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
Ah - progress! Yes - the WA needed to be Labour-friendly to pass. But May was too obstinate to bend her red lines to allow this to happen. Instead she kept chasing ERG votes in a strategy that was doomed to fail.
Garbage, the WA was Labour-friendly even including a temporary customs union that could have been made permanent in the future. What part of the WA [not the political declaration] and the transition was not Labour-friendly?
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
Am I away with the fairies....?
Yes
And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
Er, he's MP for Dumfries isn't he?
You been asleep for a month Bob, it has been anglified even more than previous disney version , replaced by real Englishmen
The Sec of State for Scotland has a seat in Scotland. This is a fact.
Alternatively, what part of this am I misunderstanding??
Alister Jack: Jack was born on 7 July 1963 in Dumfries, Scotland to David and Jean Jack. He was raised in Dalbeattie and Kippford. He was educated at Dalbeattie Primary School, at Crawfordton House—a private prep school near Moniaive, Dumfriesshire—and then at Glenalmond College, at that time an all-boys independent boarding school.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
Ah - progress! Yes - the WA needed to be Labour-friendly to pass. But May was too obstinate to bend her red lines to allow this to happen. Instead she kept chasing ERG votes in a strategy that was doomed to fail.
I have some sympathy for David but I can't agree with his assertion that the Conservatives have always been cautious and pragmatic.
As I see it, we tend to alternate between periods of stability and periods of crisis and the Conservatives have survived and thrived by knowing how to respond to each one.
In the 30s, there was a consensus for appeasement. Churchill not only had to win the war but he had to see off those in his party who wanted to sue for peace.
Following the war we had the post-war consensus. By the 70s this was breaking down due to increased industrial action and Thatcher swept it away.
Since the fall of the Berlin Wall a new consensus has built up around open borders, free markets and global institutions. This has is now breaking down, not just in the UK but across the West.
The Conservatives made the right choice in picking Boris as they need to ride the wave of change or they will be swept away. If Boris fails, then a Corbyn or Farage will replace him.
The centrists will have their time in the sun again but they need to realise that the status quo is not sustainable. They also need to try to understand the motivations of leave voters and those voting for change:
Security:
- Giving people on ordinary incomes the chance to own their own home - Having secure employment and not needing to claim benefits
Fairness:
- Not allowing asylum seekers to jump the queue when there is a massive housing waiting list - Not allowing health tourists to use our NHS for free - Not allowing people to claim child benefit for children who don't live here
Sovereignty
- Not allowing increasing numbers of decisions to be taken by unelected bureaucrats in global institutions.
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
Hi Malc.
Hello, Their Scottish leader never ever stops banging on about how their should not be any chance of any further devolution / independence. Their "NEW" leader at Westminster's first sentence was to utter "I will not allow another independence referendum". So you can take from that , the Scottish party and the Scottish Westminster leader are neither Liberal or Democratic. Hard to see them going anywhere in Scotland with those views. Rennie the Scottish leader is just rubbish and my expectations of the whining Swinson is that she will be no better, she is a real right wing Tory at heart. They do not seem to care what the public think , only their own entrenched views and seem to dislike democracy. PS you may see different views in England but dire up here for sure and going nowhere.
Thanks for that Malcolm.
I was disappointed to hear Jo Swinson's comments on a further referendum myself, not because I have an opinion either way, but if you want one you should have one and it reflected badly on the Brexit 2nd referendum campaign.
I don't know enough about Rennie, but I'm surprised by the comment on no more devolution. As a LD maximum practical devolution should be in the blood.
However would I be right in assuming the differences pre-date these two by some considerable time.
Not sure about the past , but the recent LD's in Scotland like Rennie and the fibber Carmichael have been very poor, given the demise of labour and the extreme dislike of Tories it is amazing that they have went backwards in Scotland. I could not name any other than the totally odious creature Alex cole-Hamilton who is of the same ilk as the other two if not worse. If not wanting SNP in Scotland you are really struggling big time.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
Ah - progress! Yes - the WA needed to be Labour-friendly to pass. But May was too obstinate to bend her red lines to allow this to happen. Instead she kept chasing ERG votes in a strategy that was doomed to fail.
Rubbish, the Withdrawal Agreement only legally dealt with citizens rights, the exit bill and the Irish border to get to the transition period all of which Labour agreed with. Even Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 unlike Corbyn who was just playing politics, at least LD and SNP MPs had the excuse they ideologically opposed Brexit unlike Corbyn.
The political declaration was not legally binding and even customs union membership could have been added to the future relationship once we got to the transition period
As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?
Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?
Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?
Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?
I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...
I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
Ah - progress! Yes - the WA needed to be Labour-friendly to pass. But May was too obstinate to bend her red lines to allow this to happen. Instead she kept chasing ERG votes in a strategy that was doomed to fail.
Rubbish, the Withdrawal Agreement only legally dealt with citizens rights, the exit bill and the Irish border to get to the transition period all of which Labour agreed with. Even Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 unlike Corbyn who was just playing politics, at least LD and SNP MPs had the excuse they ideologically opposed Brexit unlike Corbyn.
The political declaration was not legally binding and even customs union membership could have been added to the future relationship once we got to the transition period
If Corbyn Labour get trounced by Boris, the LDs and SNP at the next general election it will be poetic justice indeed
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
That's a choice. The UK can impose import tariffs with higher food prices and at least short term chaos at Dover. Or it can unilaterally lower tariffs when other countries don't and put food suppliers and farmers out of business. It doesn't look as if the government has fully faced up to that choice, but it seems to be tending to the first so as to maintain supply.
What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
Hi Malc.
Hello, Their Scottish leader never ever stops banging on about how their should not be any chance of any further devolution / independence. Their "NEW" leader at Westminster's first sentence was to utter "I will not allow another independence referendum". So you can take from that , the Scottish party and the Scottish Westminster leader are neither Liberal or Democratic. Hard to see them going anywhere in Scotland with those views. Rennie the Scottish leader is just rubbish and my expectations of the whining Swinson is that she will be no better, she is a real right wing Tory at heart. They do not seem to care what the public think , only their own entrenched views and seem to dislike democracy. PS you may see different views in England but dire up here for sure and going nowhere.
Thanks for that Malcolm.
I was disappointed to hear Jo Swinson's comments on a further referendum myself, not because I have an opinion either way, but if you want one you should have one and it reflected badly on the Brexit 2nd referendum campaign.
I don't know enough about Rennie, but I'm surprised by the comment on no more devolution. As a LD maximum practical devolution should be in the blood.
However would I be right in assuming the differences pre-date these two by some considerable time.
Not sure about the past , but the recent LD's in Scotland like Rennie and the fibber Carmichael have been very poor, given the demise of labour and the extreme dislike of Tories it is amazing that they have went backwards in Scotland. I could not name any other than the totally odious creature Alex cole-Hamilton who is of the same ilk as the other two if not worse. If not wanting SNP in Scotland you are really struggling big time.
Cheers Malcolm. From a personal point of view I want as many LD seats in the UK as possible, but frankly I am happy with the SNP keeping Labour/Tories numbers down.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly thanks to independent MPs like Frank Field and Ian Austin and Stephen Lloyd not official Labour MPs, had the independent MPs not been voting the WA would still have failed at MV3 even with all Tory MPs voting for it
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
What does this stand for?
A mystery. I'd go for the Government of Notionally Acceptable Direction, or GONAD.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
What does this stand for?
A mystery. I'd go for the Government of Notionally Acceptable Direction, or GONAD.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
If this is true it just shows the complete moral collapse of the Labour Party. Jews have faced rising levels of anti-Semitism in recent years from the triple whammy of white nationalism, Islamists and the far left. Now moderate MPs want to make an anti-Semite our Prime Minister. I would feel completely rejected by my own country if this happened and I know most of my Jewish friends feel the same. I hope the SNP, Lib Dems and moderate Labour and Tory MPs still feel at least some solidarity for us.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
Yep the damage wrought on this country by Remain MPs refusing to accept the result of the referendum really is bad. They should be ashamed, as should anyone who has tried too thwart Brexit.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the vast majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
That's a choice. The UK can impose import tariffs with higher food prices and at least short term chaos at Dover. Or it can unilaterally lower tariffs when other countries don't and put food suppliers and farmers out of business. It doesn't look as if the government has fully faced up to that choice, but it seems to be tending to the first so as to maintain supply.
Yep it was put on the radio this morning as farmers vs consumers.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did seek to Leave pragmatically with the Withdrawal Agreement but Labour and the LDs rejected it so rather than be killed by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority and the DUP opposed the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
Thus even if every ERG MP had voted for the Withdrawal Agreement it still would have failed, it needed Labour MPs votes to pass absent a Tory majority
Ah - progress! Yes - the WA needed to be Labour-friendly to pass. But May was too obstinate to bend her red lines to allow this to happen. Instead she kept chasing ERG votes in a strategy that was doomed to fail.
Garbage, the WA was Labour-friendly even including a temporary customs union that could have been made permanent in the future. What part of the WA [not the political declaration] and the transition was not Labour-friendly?
You've given the answer - a permanent CU would have got Labour on board. But May refused. And lost. Three times. And resigned. And went to the cricket.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Yet @Sean_Fear enthusiastically fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies and announced that he would do it all over again.
And I have no axe to grind, other than the deep sadness that whatever happens now, the civic society of the country I once loved is decaying rapidly and inexorably.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
There was plenty of dashing it out from both sides. Alistair was one of many. Sean was not.
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
Looks like the Rail Delivery Group have withdrawn train companies from the scheme.
People in the UK can still buy an Interrail ticket, but tickets won't be valid for Interrailers outside the UK travelling here. An utterly stupid decision.
Why utterly stupid? Isn’t it just a business analysis?
It actively discourages tourism, especially beyond London.
Sure (although suspect it's relatively low value added tourism). But RDG operates on behalf of its owners, which are mainly the privately owned rail operating companies. If they think they can make more money from selling few tickets at higher prices shouldn't that be their right?
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the best majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
The Tories held the referendum; May held an unnecessary GE. I have no love for Corbyn, but it wasn't Labour's problem to fix. It was a Tory problem.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
There was plenty of dashing it out from both sides. Alistair was one of many. Sean was not.
I'm certain I've posted things that are offensive, occasionally.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You need to look in the mirror Meeks. It is your hatred of basic democratic principles that has helped bring us to this point.
Just remember you already rejected this country the day after the Referendum.
I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.
I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
A fairly liberally minded Tory wouldn't be expected to make a hanger and flogger Home Secretary. It might just be a ruse to attract the extreme right UKIP vote but would someone 'liberally minded' really do that?
TBH, wanting criminal to feel "terror" is one of the most disturbing comments I have every heard from a Home Secretary.
TBF I don't know if that was the Daily Mail paraphrasing, or if she actually said that, but if the latter then she should be ashamed of herself.
Terror is not an emotion that the government should be seeking to elicit.
A reasonable expectation that they will be caught and punished would be more appropriate (although, I concede, a less snappy headline)
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit as more trouble than it was worth - that the notional benefits were heavily outweighed by the practical negatives. In retrospect, the only thing I got wrong was that I believed the Tories would, as the pro-business party, seek to leave as pragmatically as possible. I never envisaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
I thought so too.
Its funny as I was a Remainer and you helped convince me to switch sides, now you seem to be heading to where I was pre-referendum before then and I'm going further the other way - and I know a lot of others like me who switched late who are now on the No Deal wing too. It feels almost like early Brexiters like you are Doctor Frankenstein, while Brexit and people like myself are the Monster - be careful of what you've created [no offence intended with this]
Ultimately however it takes two to tango and a pragmatic deal could have been available and it would be one where NI was dealt with in the future negotiations with a clear commitment by both sides to keep an open border - while the transition keeps an open border during those negotiations. Job done, nice and simple - the only thing it relied upon was a bit of goodwill on both sides. But there is no goodwill.
The dogmatic insistence of the EU on the backstop is unacceptable and we can't force pragmatism on them. The vote in the EU was to take back control, the backstop sacrifices control. So no.
Thanks, and I hope you’ll agree I’ve been consistent since the start in arguing for a compromise based on a practical semi-detached status from outside the EU but with close cooperation. Robert Smithson has been the same.
I’ve never been purely solely ideological about it.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Yet @Sean_Fear enthusiastically fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies and announced that he would do it all over again.
And I have no axe to grind, other than the deep sadness that whatever happens now, the civic society of the country I once loved is decaying rapidly and inexorably.
Your first sentence belies the second. Simply by supporting Leave means Sean is reprehensible to you. It is this thinking on both sides that is destroying our civic society. Supporting Remain does not make someone complicit in treachery and supporting Leave does not make someone complicit in racism.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the vast majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
An interesting line to voters: Labour should be crushed for voting against a deal, but the Tories who now run the government should be rewarded for doing the same???
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist e EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the vast majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
Yet you Tories are the principal defenders of our adversarial electoral and political system under which one party gets majority power on the back of minority support and the other party’s responsibility is to probe, test and oppose everything that they do.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. xit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois d had Labour
The Tories held the referendum; May held an unnecessary GE. I have no love for Corbyn, but it wasn't Labour's problem to fix. It was a Tory problem.
The Tories held the referendum after winning a majority with it as a manifesto commitment, the voters voted Leave and Labour promised to back Brexit with a Deal in its 2017 manifesto. The Withdrawal Agreement did that and the future relationship could have been decided in the transition period as the political declaration was non binding.
It is Labour to blame for No Deal and the Withdrawal Agreement not passing given the Leave vote must still be delivered
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
Yep the damage wrought on this country by Remain MPs refusing to accept the result of the referendum really is bad. They should be ashamed, as should anyone who has tried too thwart Brexit.
Nonsense Richard. I refer to the post I wrote shortly before. Those that can see Brexit to be folly have the democratic duty to point it out for what it is. Secondly, those of the more extreme Brexit views in the Commons have been monumentally thick. If they had supported the WA they could still have further amended it at a later date and we would now no longer be members. The fault lies, not with those that opposed the Madness, but with those that had the job of delivering it, having advocated it in the first place.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the vast majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
Had Labour voted for MV1 or MV2 it would have passed so that's absurd. Boris opposed MV1 AND MV2 - I'm not sure if MV3 was any different at all. He switched sides as an example of blatant political opportunism. Had MV3 passed he could have claimed credit and loyalty and as it failed he can claim he would have liked it to pass but the will of the Commons decreed otherwise.
He has built a political career trying to decide which side is the right side to be on. He reneged on a commitment not to return to Westminster during his second term as London Mayor and he will renege on his commitment to take the UK out of the EU on 31/10 if it preserves his career and keeps him in office and he will gladly shove anyone or everyone under the bus (including you and me) to achieve that end.
IMO. a Brexit that leaves something on the table for its opponents is more likely to succeed than one that doesn't.
IMO its a binary choice, we should be in, or we should be out.
If we are in we should be in: Schengen, Euro, the works. If we are out we should be out: Trade agreement sure, but no politics at all. No ECJ, no European Parliament laws.
I view us as like Canada to the EU's USA. You don't see Canadians adopting wholesale without any choice laws from the US Congress. You don't see President Trump getting involved with Canadian laws. You don't see SCOTUS adjudicating the laws of Canada.
What we need is an equivalent of NAFTA, or whatever they're going to call it now.
Rip off the bandage, survey the lay of the land and then get trade agreements sorted. No politics. Or go whole hog in.
I don’t agree with either of those.
There’s in with opt outs (what we had) and out with opt ins (what May was working on).
I think it has to be one of those to reflect social, political, geopolitical and economic realities of the UK and either of the two pure solutions wouldn’t be appropriate and would be hated by many, rather than accepted.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist e EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
Yet you Tories are the principal defenders of our adversarial electoral and political system under which one party gets majority power on the back of minority support and the other party’s responsibility is to probe, test and oppose everything that they do.
I do think the electoral system has to change. we could end up with a completely capricious result.
I'm sorry to see Mr Nabavi, Herdson and TSE gone. Especially since I self-identify as a liberal fiscally dry One Nation Conservative and feel like if you ignore Brexit we are getting our party back with Johnson who is of that same wing as Cameron.
I know that may not mean much coming from me as my principled views on democracy means I hate the backstop so I seem to have become a poster boy here for No Deal, despite the fact I despise and have no connection with the ERG. May was much more of a divergence with fiscally dry One Nation Conservativism with her authoritarianism and aping Milliband.
Once we put Brexit behind us [ha!] I hope you three can all feel free to come back "home". You will be missed.
Sorry, but the "home" is now trashed. And also I am sorry that I do not buy that many people with your type of views are just moderates with Brexit clothes. Once you espouse the politics of the extreme you will always be nothing else but, until the day when you admit your mistake. Brexit is founded on the politics of hatred and division. There have always been a few people in the Tory Party that used to hold those views, but they were once a minority. Sadly that is no longer the case.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
And so the feeding frenzy against those with 'inferior' views to the 'wise ones' continues....
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the vast majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
An interesting line to voters: Labour should be crushed for voting against a deal, but the Tories who now run the government should be rewarded for doing the same???
Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 unlike Corbyn even if he is still prepared to deliver Brexit with No Deal
Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
Hi Malc.
Hello, Their Scottish leader never ever stops banging on about how their should not be any chance of any further devolution / independence. Their "NEW" leader at Westminster's first sentence was to utter "I will not allow another independence referendum". So you can take from that , the Scottish party and the Scottish Westminster leader are neither Liberal or Democratic. Hard to see them going anywhere in Scotland with those views. Rennie the Scottish leader is just rubbish and my expectations of the whining Swinson is that she will be no better, she is a real right wing Tory at heart. They do not seem to care what the public think , only their own entrenched views and seem to dislike democracy. PS you may see different views in England but dire up here for sure and going nowhere.
Thanks for that Malcolm.
I was disappointed to hear Jo Swinson's comments on a further referendum myself, not because I have an opinion either way, but if you want one you should have one and it reflected badly on the Brexit 2nd referendum campaign.
I don't know enough about Rennie, but I'm surprised by the comment on no more devolution. As a LD maximum practical devolution should be in the blood.
However would I be right in assuming the differences pre-date these two by some considerable time.
Not sure about the past , but the recent LD's in Scotland like Rennie and the fibber Carmichael have been very poor, given the demise of labour and the extreme dislike of Tories it is amazing that they have went backwards in Scotland. I could not name any other than the totally odious creature Alex cole-Hamilton who is of the same ilk as the other two if not worse. If not wanting SNP in Scotland you are really struggling big time.
Cheers Malcolm. From a personal point of view I want as many LD seats in the UK as possible, but frankly I am happy with the SNP keeping Labour/Tories numbers down.
The SNP are now friends to rational politics and politicians in England. Which itself is a comment upon how far the standards of our politics, outside Scotland, have fallen.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Yet @Sean_Fear enthusiastically fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies and announced that he would do it all over again.
And I have no axe to grind, other than the deep sadness that whatever happens now, the civic society of the country I once loved is decaying rapidly and inexorably.
Your first sentence belies the second. Simply by supporting Leave means Sean is reprehensible to you. It is this thinking on both sides that is destroying our civic society. Supporting Remain does not make someone complicit in treachery and supporting Leave does not make someone complicit in racism.
No, it is not simply by supporting Leave that Sean is reprehensible to me. As I have twice made clear, huge damage has been done by the Leave advocates and their disgusting and reckless campaigning on xenophobic lies in order to secure Brexit. This is something that Sean himself has announced that he would do all over again.
Leave advocates have followed this up by three years of assaulting every civic institution that appears to offer even a short term impediment to Brexit: the BBC, the courts, the House of Lords, the Bank of England and now the House of Commons and democracy itself.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois either but the point remains the vast majority of Tory MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 and had Labour backed the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 it would have passed regardless of the DUP and ERG diehards. Labour refused for petty party politics reasons despite the political declaration being non binding and Corbyn Labour will hopefully be crushed at the next general election as a result by Boris, the LDs and SNP
An interesting line to voters: Labour should be crushed for voting against a deal, but the Tories who now run the government should be rewarded for doing the same???
Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3 unlike Corbyn even if he is still prepared to deliver Brexit with No Deal
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
Until we leave, the sky doesn't fall in and all this drama turns out to be much ado about nothing.
Oh the sky wont fall in, but there will be huge collateral damage, businesses bust and people losing jobs, people taking their own lives as a consequence. You will be smirking, because your nationalistic anti-philosophy won the day. Shame on your callousness, or idiocy, whichever it is.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
And we need to hang onto those of our regular contributors who are still clinging onto the Tory wagon, if only for reasons of balance.
Who’d think it is just two short years since we were awash with PB Tories anticipating the imminent election of Tory MPs in seats like Bolsover....
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I don't know why you got picked on, SeanF. Somebody mixed you up with the rascally SeanT perhaps?
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
And we need to hang onto those of our regular contributors who are still clinging onto the Tory wagon, if only for reasons of balance.
Who’d think it is just two short years since we were awash with PB Tories anticipating the imminent election of Tory MPs in seats like Bolsover....
They might get an MP elected in Bolsover, while losing one in Guildford.
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For ain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. xit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
That was mainly independent MPs like Frank Field not official Labour MPs
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois d had Labour
The Tories held the referendum; May held an unnecessary GE. I have no love for Corbyn, but it wasn't Labour's problem to fix. It was a Tory problem.
The Tories held the referendum after winning a majority with it as a manifesto commitment, the voters voted Leave and Labour promised to back Brexit with a Deal in its 2017 manifesto. The Withdrawal Agreement did that and the future relationship could have been decided in the transition period as the political declaration was non binding.
It is Labour to blame for No Deal and the Withdrawal Agreement not passing given the Leave vote must still be delivered
Except that your Cammo made that commitment never expecting he would win outright.
The biggest mistake Cammo made was breaking his promise to soft pedal on the AV referendum.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I don't know why you got picked on, SeanF. Somebody mixed you up with the rascally SeanT perhaps?
Thanks, but I think we're all big boys and girls on this forum
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I don't know why you got picked on, SeanF. Somebody mixed you up with the rascally SeanT perhaps?
SeanF should take the chance to become just Sean, now that the other Sean has gone all poetic.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I don't know why you got picked on, SeanF. Somebody mixed you up with the rascally SeanT perhaps?
SeanF should take the chance to become just Sean, now that the other Sean has gone all poetic.
I never had his talent for invective "stinking pool of leper's sputum."
I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. xit.
Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
I am pretty much with you. I always saw Brexit visaged the three year descent into loondom we have seen.
The Tories did by the Brexit Party the Tories now have to go for No Deal
The Tories had a majority. The WA was killed by the ERG.
No they did not, the Tories needed the DUP for a majority ty
And how many Labour MPs did vote for it? More than there were DUP MPs.
No even at MV3 fewer Labour MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement than DUP MPs
You need to improve your grammar here. More Labour MPs voted for for the WA than DUP MPs.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
Yes I did, apologies
MV3: For, 286; Against, 344 (inc. 34 Tories)
My point still stands. The Tories, as the largest party, could have passed the WA with support from others.
I have not much time for Baker and Francois d had Labour
The Tories held the referendum; May held an unnecessary GE. I have no love for Corbyn, but it wasn't Labour's problem to fix. It was a Tory problem.
The Tories held the referendum after winning a majority with it as a manifesto commitment, the voters voted Leave and Labour promised to back Brexit with a Deal in its 2017 manifesto. The Withdrawal Agreement did that and the future relationship could have been decided in the transition period as the political declaration was non binding.
It is Labour to blame for No Deal and the Withdrawal Agreement not passing given the Leave vote must still be delivered
It’s a Tory brexit if they can’t get it through its their fault and if insane enough to go for WTO leave they can own the consequences. It is nobody else’s fault.
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
Until we leave, the sky doesn't fall in and all this drama turns out to be much ado about nothing.
Oh the sky wont fall in, but there will be huge collateral damage, businesses bust and people losing jobs, people taking their own lives as a consequence. You will be smirking, because your nationalistic anti-philosophy won the day. Shame on your callousness, or idiocy, whichever it is.
@Charles has put the level at which the price for Brexit is too high to pay at 200,000 people out of work.
He has not so far let us know what is an appropriate level of people out of work for it to be the right price.
Perhaps one of the Leaver altruist geniuses on here ("it won't run out there just won't be any of it for some people for a while") could let us know the right level.
It is bloody obvious the Labour Party would only endorse Corbyn. If there is to be a GONU it is a Corbyn GONU or nothing. That is the only option.
Don't fall into the trap of yet again using the language of Remainers. They like to refer to it as a GONU. Yet how could it be a GONU when it would be a Government Of Remainers Only, formed in the teeth of opposition from the largest party in parliament? A GORO perhaps?
The correct term is GoNAfaE, which is neutral and does exactly what it says on the tin
What does this stand for?
A mystery. I'd go for the Government of Notionally Acceptable Direction, or GONAD.
GOMOO (Government Of Majority Of One). Which we have already. So we need one GOMOO to be replaced by another.
How many Conservative members are leaving quietly - just cancelling or not renewing their direct debits? Did anyone go to Brecon - was there a good turnout of Conservative supporters to leaflet and canvas?
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I don't know why you got picked on, SeanF. Somebody mixed you up with the rascally SeanT perhaps?
SeanF should take the chance to become just Sean, now that the other Sean has gone all poetic.
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
Until we leave, the sky doesn't fall in and all this drama turns out to be much ado about nothing.
Oh the sky wont fall in, but there will be huge collateral damage, businesses bust and people losing jobs, people taking their own lives as a consequence. You will be smirking, because your nationalistic anti-philosophy won the day. Shame on your callousness, or idiocy, whichever it is.
@Charles has put the level at which the price for Brexit is too high to pay at 200,000 people out of work.
He has not so far let us know what is an appropriate level of people out of work for it to be the right price.
Perhaps one of the Leaver altruist geniuses on here ("it won't run out there just won't be any of it for some people for a while") could let us know the right level.
Principles don't come with a price.
Perhaps you can tell us what the right level is for you to admit you were wrong since you're expecting others to do the same?
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I’m not having pious platitudes mouthed by people who played a substantial part in getting the country mired in the current mess by their completely unprincipled support of a vile campaign.
You yourself have often given the impression the impression, since 2016, that you have intense hatred for people who voted Leave.
You revelled in the Leave campaign. You’d do it all again, you said.
At some point Leave advocates will come to realise just how terribly they’ve damaged this country. But not yet, unfortunately.
I have lurked on this board for a number of months now. Sean has always come over as one of the most measured participants while you have been one of the most vitriolic. I say this as a Remainer that wants to rejoin.
Alistair was on the receiving end of months and months of vitriol. "Traitor" and "quisling" were rolled out regularly. I'd have retained some animosity, too, were I in his shoes.
I find Sean F’s posts to be driven by strange and petty grievances.
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
I don't think I have any particular grudges.
You don't. Always a courteous and thoughtful contributor to this forum
Thank you very much.
Yeah, I don't know why you got picked on, SeanF. Somebody mixed you up with the rascally SeanT perhaps?
SeanF should take the chance to become just Sean, now that the other Sean has gone all poetic.
Should he ever come back he could be Sean_of_the_Dead.
Comments
The ERG are happy for the WA to be dead and happy for there to be No Deal instead. Are Labour?
Getting trade agreements "sorted" from a position of abject weakness is just daft. The Canadian's are already distancing themselves from rolling over the EU agreement, which Raab (and others) were telling us was in the bag, as they can now leverage better terms.
I think you mean fewer Labour MPs voted for the WA than DUP MPs voted against it.
(Well, that's the polite version. There are similar quotes from different people that are more rude)
If the EU change their minds then great, otherwise the decision is made for us.
https://order-order.com/2019/08/07/derby-trainmaker-wins-2-3-billion-cairo-monorail-contract/
Alternatively, what part of this am I misunderstanding??
Alister Jack: Jack was born on 7 July 1963 in Dumfries, Scotland to David and Jean Jack. He was raised in Dalbeattie and Kippford. He was educated at Dalbeattie Primary School, at Crawfordton House—a private prep school near Moniaive, Dumfriesshire—and then at Glenalmond College, at that time an all-boys independent boarding school.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1159049604635275264?s=20
If not wanting SNP in Scotland you are really struggling big time.
The political declaration was not legally binding and even customs union membership could have been added to the future relationship once we got to the transition period
If the Tories had all voted for the WA, it would have passed (For 320, Against 310)
Now Lee, Grieve, Bebb, Greening and Gyimah all have deeply held beliefs that remaining is best (As the Spartans preferred "No Deal")
Given his support for No dealer Boris, I have to conclude that maybe JOHNSON is ultimately responsible for a No Deal Brexit on countback.
Originally coined by @rcs1000, I think
Not vitriolic, sure, perhaps passive aggressive is the better term.
And I have no axe to grind, other than the deep sadness that whatever happens now, the civic society of the country I once loved is decaying rapidly and inexorably.
Government of Remainers, Others and Trots.
Just remember you already rejected this country the day after the Referendum.
TBF I don't know if that was the Daily Mail paraphrasing, or if she actually said that, but if the latter then she should be ashamed of herself.
Terror is not an emotion that the government should be seeking to elicit.
A reasonable expectation that they will be caught and punished would be more appropriate (although, I concede, a less snappy headline)
I’ve never been purely solely ideological about it.
It is Labour to blame for No Deal and the Withdrawal Agreement not passing given the Leave vote must still be delivered
He has built a political career trying to decide which side is the right side to be on. He reneged on a commitment not to return to Westminster during his second term as London Mayor and he will renege on his commitment to take the UK out of the EU on 31/10 if it preserves his career and keeps him in office and he will gladly shove anyone or everyone under the bus (including you and me) to achieve that end.
There’s in with opt outs (what we had) and out with opt ins (what May was working on).
I think it has to be one of those to reflect social, political, geopolitical and economic realities of the UK and either of the two pure solutions wouldn’t be appropriate and would be hated by many, rather than accepted.
I have no hate. I've been posting here for 13 years I dare you to say anything I've ever said that was based on "hate and division".
I see more hate from those wishing death upon the elderly.
One of the most inspiring quotes I find is Edith Cavell’s statement before her execution:
Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone
After you’ve fallen in enthusiastically behind a campaign of xenophobic lies.
Seek help.
I
They are in denial. I was speaking to a German friend the other day who was saying that the UK used to be seen as a beacon of political stability and common sense, and how astonished everyone is in Europe that we are now make Italy look like a paragon of political virtue
And so the feeding frenzy against those with 'inferior' views to the 'wise ones' continues....
Leave advocates have followed this up by three years of assaulting every civic institution that appears to offer even a short term impediment to Brexit: the BBC, the courts, the House of Lords, the Bank of England and now the House of Commons and democracy itself.
This is only set to continue and worsen.
Who’d think it is just two short years since we were awash with PB Tories anticipating the imminent election of Tory MPs in seats like Bolsover....
The biggest mistake Cammo made was breaking his promise to soft pedal on the AV referendum.
Suni Prasannan
(Never been a member of any party whatsoever)
He has not so far let us know what is an appropriate level of people out of work for it to be the right price.
Perhaps one of the Leaver altruist geniuses on here ("it won't run out there just won't be any of it for some people for a while") could let us know the right level.
Perhaps you can tell us what the right level is for you to admit you were wrong since you're expecting others to do the same?
OK, it's time I went anyway. Where's me coat?