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  • Labour would have not have comprimised on anything, they voted against the deal cause it was May's deal. The deal she bought back was exactly the same as Labour would have bought back if it was in power. As posters mentioned earlier Labour is the opposition and no matter what is put in front of them they would vote against it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    More likely Putin & Trump. If she wanted to prepare for Johnson this would be a better place to start:

    https://www.enotes.com/topics/william-shakespeare/critical-essays/shakespeares-clowns-and-fools
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,710
    HYUFD said:

    The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right
    Parliament voted against the WA because it was too 'Hard' a Brexit. A cross-party, consensual, soft and cosy Brexit would have passed.

    However, May was too stupid / pig headed to agree to this, and instead tried to chase the support of the Tory extremists, who have now taken over.

    Rejection of the WA was not a cry for No Deal, whatever you and your new hero might think. Parliament will rightfully do whatever it takes to block it from happening.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Most Conservative MPs are either overtly pro-EU, or supported the deal. I wonder what they make of the PM's positioning, given they backed him so strongly.

    They believed the infamous com res poll at the start of the election process showing that Johnson would win the next election by zillions of seats so decided he would keep them in a job. So it’s not just our own diehard poll believer which pins so much credence on what if polls.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,543
    FF43 said:

    We are where we are. You can't hope to solve a problem until you recognise you have it. In this case to recognise Brexit to be a disaster. At that point, you can work out the least damaging remaining option, which I would suggest is either Norway or indefinite delay.

    We are not at that level of awareness of the problem we are in. That's why we are thrashing around. No Deal is a manifestation of Brexit failure.
    I don't see it as a disaster. But, then our ideological outlooks differ.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,252
    edited August 2019

    Yes. The VONC has to come when it is clear that chaos looms - when Parliament resumes in October may be the moment.
    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    I have decided Westminster is no longer fit for purpose. Given the choice I would vote for rejoin/Euro/Schengen.

    Pre-Brexit I would not have done that.
    Snap.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TGOHF said:

    Sky News doorstepped him. They've had 2 years to do the same to Seamus - haven't quite got round to it yet mind you.

    Question for Mr Herdson - what do you think the alternative to Boris's firm timeline approach is ?

    Because 3 years of May style dithering has caused untold damage to the Uk and the Con party.

    Whilst I yield to no-one in my distaste for public school millionaires with snow on their boots, Seamus is not driving government actions. Pray God he never does. Cummings, however, is.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

    It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,794
    Charles said:

    We can unilaterally continue to recognise the CE mark until the new regime is ready

    (Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)
    Sorry you are wrong. All medical devices have to have CE mark in order to be marketed, and to get it they need to go through regulatory compliance procedures, either clinical trails or submissions based on predicate. The latest regulations, known as the MDR complicate this further. What will happen after a no-deal Brexit is completely unknown and highly unpredictable. It is extremely concerning for manufacturers, exporters, importers and patients who use the products. So no, CE Mark is not BS at all!! Very far from it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,205
    It is only week 2 I think of the Boris-ship.

    If the No Deal posturing continues through August, then a VONC must be odds on early September.

    I can see Field and Ephicke voting for the government, but not sure about anyone else on the Opposition benches. Tory defectors will push this through. I don’t think Hammond made his threats lightly.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,486
    Charles said:


    But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

    This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA

    Heath got the Accession Treaty through the Commons with the support of pro-EEC Labour MPs like Roy Jenkins and David Owen. That in turn helped develop the split within the Labour party and was a step on the road to the schism of 1981. Heath faced a rebellion on his own side but the rebels got their revenge by ousting him in favour of Thatcher in 1975.

    Wilson was, as I recall, fairly agnostic on the EEC but what he wasn't was a doctrinaire Marxist. Corbyn's objection to the WA is that it doesn't come from that perspective and doesn't embody principles around re-nationalisation and workers' rights that would protect such measures from a returning Conservative Government.

    The other side is that IF Labour had signed up to the WA and we had left on 29/3, May would have gone, a new Conservative leader immediately calls a GE having delivered Brexit and the Conservatives are back for another 5 years. Labour isn't in the market for doing the Tories those kind of favours. It suits Labour politically to leave the Conservatives with the hot potato to hold as the longer it goes on, so they reason, the closer they get to power.

    Motivated self-interest, don't you just love it?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Pulpstar said:

    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.

    Corbyn in power doesn't avoid no deal though. That's the problem
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,543
    Pulpstar said:

    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think.
    I think you're right. Although, I'm not really sure what Bebb's thought processes are.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,017



    I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity

    Nasty comment.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    As opposed to someone who marches under a Benny Hill salute?

    image
    Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Stuck in the middle .... Gerry Rafferty was a visionary!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,252
    edited August 2019

    If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

    It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

    Wasn't the remain-leave split in parliament about 450-200 or some such though ? I'd alter your top paragraph to MPs that represent heavily leave constituencies (Joining Mann, Flint & Baron). There were enough Labour MPs for that.
  • Scott_P said:

    Corbyn in power doesn't avoid no deal though. That's the problem
    You are right, he wants No Deal
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,493
    Mr. Nichomar, you're right, and they were idiots to believe that as many of us here said at the time.
  • Scott_P said:

    Corbyn in power doesn't avoid no deal though. That's the problem
    It would allow an Extension pending a GE or 2nd Ref. That would be sufficient.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976



    It’s like that last episode of “The Jinx” where the protagonist finds himself vomiting in the bathroom.
    (If anyone hasn’t seen this, it is only the best documentary series ever).

    Sure, except now you've ruined the ending for me .
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Pulpstar said:

    I mean, Parliament always has the option of Revoking A50, that is within their power. Whether they will or not, who knows. Whether that is better than the WA, the future will tell.

    As a remainer I was unhappy with the method of getting to the WA more than the WA itself; it was harder than I think the 52/48 vote gave a mandate for, but it wasn't the most unreasonable deal I think could have been negotiated. The traitor talk, and the ERG made the whole process seem worse and no attempt was made to include what Remain voters cared about.

    With this large a project you need 2/3rds of the public behind you, and no attempt was made to go to soft remain votes and go "what kind of leave could you stomach". That would have put more pressure on Lab and LDs to vote in favour of a deal. It could possibly have still been a pretty hard leave (not that that was what was offered at the ref).

    I personally prefer the WA to No Deal, but I still would prefer referendum and revoke to the WA.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Pulpstar said:

    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
    McMao said exactly the same thing last night
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,383
    Cicero said:

    Well Malcolm, another measured response well supported by evidence. The fact is, as you well know the Lib Dems are on course for a huge upsurge, including against the SNP. The Nationalists are getting a temporary uptick because of the collapse of the Tories in Scotland, but in several areas where the SNP used to be strong, including the Borders and the North East, SNP support is badly faltering.

    Weren't you proclaiming the LDs had the SNP beat in the Euros?

    It's just that kind of analysis of Scotpol that I come here for. Saying the SNP used to be strong in the Borders is particularly good.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,252
    edited August 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Corbyn in power doesn't avoid no deal though. That's the problem
    Corbyn goes to the EU and says we need an extension, or perhaps even (And I'm stretching possibilities plenty here) puts the WA back through parliament with a hastily worded worker's PD !!

    Thick as Corbyn is he doesn't want "No Deal" and doesn't have the issue that all previous negotiations were carried out by his own side so can quite legitimately ask for more time.
  • stodge said:

    Heath got the Accession Treaty through the Commons with the support of pro-EEC Labour MPs like Roy Jenkins and David Owen. That in turn helped develop the split within the Labour party and was a step on the road to the schism of 1981. Heath faced a rebellion on his own side but the rebels got their revenge by ousting him in favour of Thatcher in 1975.

    Wilson was, as I recall, fairly agnostic on the EEC but what he wasn't was a doctrinaire Marxist. Corbyn's objection to the WA is that it doesn't come from that perspective and doesn't embody principles around re-nationalisation and workers' rights that would protect such measures from a returning Conservative Government.

    The other side is that IF Labour had signed up to the WA and we had left on 29/3, May would have gone, a new Conservative leader immediately calls a GE having delivered Brexit and the Conservatives are back for another 5 years. Labour isn't in the market for doing the Tories those kind of favours. It suits Labour politically to leave the Conservatives with the hot potato to hold as the longer it goes on, so they reason, the closer they get to power.

    Motivated self-interest, don't you just love it?
    Labour are currently getting horrendous Poll ratings, and their performance in a Wales By Election beggared belief. They are now much further from power then they were at the start of the year.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Scott_P said:
    Claim a curry on expenses and get it delivered in a taxi??
  • Anorak said:

    Snap.
    Not Schengen, until the EU comes up with creible means of policing a 9,000 mile border. Otherwise I'm with you.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    It would allow an Extension pending a GE or 2nd Ref. That would be sufficient.
    If you can trust him RBL did not fill me with confidence that you can trust them with anything.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,543
    geoffw said:

    Nasty comment.
    Quips about how good it would be if older voters just died off are really quite common, among self-styled virtuous people.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited August 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
    Yes I think it will come to that and, in extremis, I think the Tory rebels will do it if it's the only way to avoid no deal. They are clearly not bluffing and they must know that this is where things are heading - they are, after all, some of the brighter and more experienced MPs in the party. And their careers will be over anyway if they VONC Johnson so they have nothing to lose.

    Corbyn would have no real power as the Commons could VONC him at any time so all he will be able to do is negotiate an extension to allow for an election and/or second referendum.

    It's just possible that when Boris is faced with the choice between seeking his own extension or seeing Corbyn voted in he might decide to extend after all.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:
    This shows what is wrong with pasting tweets, or at least with the way that tweets are displayed in pb.

    There is a huge picture of Wee Eck but Scott_P has added no detail as to why he has uploaded it, and nor does the tweet itself tell us anything. What would Salmond do about what?

    To find out why we should care about Salmond or even what this great issue might be, we have to follow first the link to the tweet and from there, the link to the newspaper.
  • nichomar said:

    If you can trust him RBL did not fill me with confidence that you can trust them with anything.
    Wouldn't have much choice, but unlike his opposite number, he is a man of his word. There's also the thought of what would happen to him and the Labour Party if he ratted. That ought to keep him straight.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,038
    Sean_F said:

    There's a ceiling to Lib Dem support, as well. They obviously aren't going to get support from Leave voters, and many Remain voters are already committed to Labour, SNP, Plaid, Greens or even the Conservatives.
    True but I'll vote Lib Dem next time not with any expectation of it counting for anything under our archaic voting system but simply so I can say with a clear conscience that I did nothing to help the election of either Corbyn or Johnson
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.
  • I love the sound of Tories squabbling in the morning. Sounds like........ Victory.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,486
    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,540

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    The first one is very funny.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,038
    Sean_F said:

    I don't support a No Deal Brexit as my preferred outcome, but I don't want to revoke A.50 either, and don't want a far left government, so that just leaves the Conservatives.
    Trouble is it Isn't really a Conservative government it's a UKIP government in all but name.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    stodge said:

    On the "food shortages" question, I'm not expecting people to starve either but we are used, especially in the towns and cities, to being able to walk into a supermarket any hour of the day or night and for that supermarket to have the things we want. I have three 24-hour main supermarkets within walking distance as well as any number of local shops in the Barking Road which claim to be open all the time.

    The point is, if my cupboards were bare at 4am, all I need to fill them is the money to buy food and the means to convey said food home.

    The disruption of No Deal, as we saw with the 2000 fuel strike, will mean temporary shortages of certain things which will be irritating and confusing but hardly the end of civilisation. I could imagine a bit of panic buying around 31/10 which would exacerbate any problems but we won't run out of milk and bread even if they run short in a few places.

    So not quite the end of days then.......
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,252
    nichomar said:

    If you can trust him RBL did not fill me with confidence that you can trust them with anything.
    Well perhaps Grieve & co should have voted for the WA then ! The numbers wouldn't have been enough but the likes of Masterton & Letwin (Who are also implacably opposed to "No Deal") were prepared to do it
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Floater said:

    So not quite the end of days then.......

    Just "disastrous"

    https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1159004394043662336
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2019
    A short but interesting distraction from Brexit: Changes in tobacco use, unknown risks, and rising tobacco consumption amongst teens.
    https://members.tortoisemedia.com/2019/08/07/smokescreen/content.html

    Also: when did "heated tobacco" become a thing?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,383

    This shows what is wrong with pasting tweets, or at least with the way that tweets are displayed in pb.

    There is a huge picture of Wee Eck but Scott_P has added no detail as to why he has uploaded it, and nor does the tweet itself tell us anything. What would Salmond do about what?

    To find out why we should care about Salmond or even what this great issue might be, we have to follow first the link to the tweet and from there, the link to the newspaper.
    Scott still believes the path to government for the Ruth Davidson Party and saving the Union is photos of Eck and having a single policy of no to Indy ref II. Crude but...well, not even effective.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    stodge said:

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.

    Look at the Galaxy brains currently in Government, than ask yourself how confident you are in their contingency planning...
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Not Schengen, until the EU comes up with creible means of policing a 9,000 mile border. Otherwise I'm with you.
    I know what you mean, but our geographic distance from said border gives me comfort.
  • If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

    It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

    Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

    It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Scott still believes the path to government for the Ruth Davidson Party and saving the Union is photos of Eck and having a single policy of no to Indy ref II. Crude but...well, not even effective.

    So Divot's answer to the question "What would Eck do" is, "Blame Ruth"

    Totally unpredictable, never saw that coming, SNP for the win...
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

    Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,307
    Well, the three activists with whom I consistently felt most aligned and on that proverbial same page have all quit. Astonishing and grotesque that this would have even been contemplated four short years ago.

    I'll be staying and fighting. Possibly cowardice and/or just too much of a wrench since first becoming an activist way way back in 1975. But with a song in the heart, I shall demonstrate the same exemplary loyalty to the new regime (including my own MP, who just happens to be Foreign Secretary) as they displayed to their two immediate predecessors.

    We will get our party back.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Brexit is a dry run for Sindy, wherein the party of Government morphs from touting the benefits to "we probably won't starve" in a single bound...

    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1159034351046332416
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Anorak said:

    Snap.
    Hilarious. You won't get a chance so it's completely hypothetical. The public want to leave and it's incredible how many adults are stomping their feet about it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,383
    Scott_P said:

    So Divot's answer to the question "What would Eck do" is, "Blame Ruth"

    Totally unpredictable, never saw that coming, SNP for the win...
    I'm not much bothered about What would Eck do at the moment, so I wasn't answering that question. I'd suggest he and Ruth Davidson have a similar amount of relevance to current events.

    Have you gone back to supporting Indy Ref II yet? Only a matter of time surely.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,606
    Floater said:

    Claim a curry on expenses and get it delivered in a taxi??
    That was John Major, wasn't it?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Brom said:

    Hilarious. You won't get a chance so it's completely hypothetical. The public want to leave and it's incredible how many adults are stomping their feet about it.
    Of *course* it's hypothetical. You could have saved yourself a post by reading Beverly's more carefully: "given the choice" was the giveaway.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "British Airways passengers facing delays after IT failures"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49261497
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I'm not much bothered about What would Eck do at the moment

    Oh dear. Zoomers have such fickle tastes.

    He was the future, once..
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,794

    Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

    It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.
    Oh come off it Richard, I think it fair to say that it is a mixture of remainers and the fanatical end of Brexiteers that have led us here. Best not debate whether the referendum conforms to basic principles of democracy as I haven't got time as I need to do some work, but lets just say that is questionable at best!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JohnO said:

    We will get our party back.

    That's what "centrist" Labour said.

    How is that working out?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,205

    Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

    It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.
    Which bit of democracy? I don’t remember de Tocqueville on the benefits of prorogue first Parliament and grinding your neighbours faces into the dust.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,383
    Scott_P said:

    Oh dear. Zoomers have such fickle tastes.

    He was the future, once..
    The similarities between Eck and Ruth just keep coming.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,124

    He doesn’t raise a fair point.
    Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.

    His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.

    One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.

    Alanbrooke is “bad”.
    What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,606
    Scott_P said:
    Looks like it's our idea too.

    Can't have young people travelling about and meeting all those dreadful Europeans.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,540
    Scott_P said:
    That doesn't say what you think it says Scott...
  • geoffw said:

    Nasty comment.
    It is a sad indictment of this country that part of brexit has been to trash the output and opinions of the experts who in the background have worked away in their own worlds to try and improve society. Our concerns have been largely ignored and when we question things we are told we are ignorant and undemocratic and even to blame for the mess. Yet every day we are expected to do our job and more. I come from a large family of doctors. Our business is caring for people. The fact that we are deeply upset is a problem for this country.

    I take back my comment.
  • tlg86 said:

    The first one is very funny.
    I do love the way David on that tweet thread pretends to know who should be a Conservative and who shouldn't. When one lady mentions that her constituency association has seen an increase in membership, David's response is basically to say that the new people are not real Conservatives.

    This goes right to the core of the problem as far as the parties are concerned. In both cases a relatively small clique has long believed that they are the ones who should define what the parties are and what they should stand for even when the membership has been moving away from them. So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,307
    Scott_P said:

    That's what "centrist" Labour said.

    How is that working out?
    It's still too early to say, not least with an election probably just weeks away.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    The other thing about this is: Given that our three middle-of-the-road down-the-line Tories have quit the party, how many Tory MPs are thinking the same thing? They're not going to get cabinet jobs any time soon, the things they spent their careers working for are about to blown up, what's the point in carrying on?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,205
    malcolmg said:

    What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.
    You’re in the “mad” bucket.
    Not sure why OGS humours you tbh, since your only contribution is to shout turnip every five minutes.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,710

    I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

    Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.

    The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,790
    malcolmg said:

    What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.
    first he hated the welsh, then he came for the paddies youre up next :smile:

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,653
    edited August 2019
    JohnO said:

    Well, the three activists with whom I consistently felt most aligned and on that proverbial same page have all quit. Astonishing and grotesque that this would have even been contemplated four short years ago.

    I'll be staying and fighting. Possibly cowardice and/or just too much of a wrench since first becoming an activist way way back in 1975. But with a song in the heart, I shall demonstrate the same exemplary loyalty to the new regime (including my own MP, who just happens to be Foreign Secretary) as they displayed to their two immediate predecessors.

    We will get our party back.

    You are an honest John, and recognise the truth of David's words, even if you choose to stay and fight for your Party back rathing than opting for his decision.

    David has been an outstanding contributor to this site for many years and one of the reasons for its success. This is reflected in the largely sober and respectful assessments of his resignation thread. Some of the comments were almost as good as the threadpiece itself.

    One persistent theme is the 'hollowing out' of the two main parties. This has been a major factor in the development of the current crisis. If Labour hadn't fallen victim to cultists in the same way the Conservative Party has, it's doubtful we would be facing the very real prospect of No Deal. Whilst the blame falls squarely on the Governement, Corbyn and Momentum have little to be proud of.

    Good luck in the future, David. I do hope we will continue to see you posting here, in happier times, one hopes.

    Good luck also to you, John O. I hope you are successful, but fear that you will come to agree with David in due course.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,205

    first he hated the welsh, then he came for the paddies youre up next :smile:

    I have a zero tolerance policy for crypto-fascists, a category in which I’d place you for sure.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

    For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

    The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.
  • Which bit of democracy? I don’t remember de Tocqueville on the benefits of prorogue first Parliament and grinding your neighbours faces into the dust.
    Alastair has been scorning democracy since long before the idiotic suggestions about proroguing. Indeed it is the attitude of people like him - and you - that have brought us to this point. Mind you at least you weren't on PB the day after the referendum claiming you had 'lost your country' and that 'The thread of allegiance has been broken'.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Anorak said:

    Of *course* it's hypothetical. You could have saved yourself a post by reading Beverly's more carefully: "given the choice" was the giveaway.
    Be fair Mr Anorak - Brom's comment was probably an involuntary reflex action.... :D
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,710
    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,790

    I have a zero tolerance policy for crypto-fascists, a category in which I’d place you for sure.
    lets just leave that as you have a zero tolerance policy for anyone who isnt you
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.

    Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    The other thing about this is: Given that our three middle-of-the-road down-the-line Tories have quit the party, how many Tory MPs are thinking the same thing? They're not going to get cabinet jobs any time soon, the things they spent their careers working for are about to blown up, what's the point in carrying on?

    I am going to assume that we no deal brexit in this comment. I believe that Boris has put a very leave Cabinet together now as a short term measure to ensure Brexit. After brexit if he gets a majority then I believe his next cabinet would be very different. He would, I believe put all factions of the Tory party into cabinet.

    If I was a middle of the road Tory MP I would stay because the best hope of getting the Tory Party they support back and a Ministerial career is to Brexit and then move on.
  • Scott_P said:

    For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

    The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.
    LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

    I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    I do love the way David on that tweet thread pretends to know who should be a Conservative and who shouldn't. When one lady mentions that her constituency association has seen an increase in membership, David's response is basically to say that the new people are not real Conservatives.

    This goes right to the core of the problem as far as the parties are concerned. In both cases a relatively small clique has long believed that they are the ones who should define what the parties are and what they should stand for even when the membership has been moving away from them. So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.
    This is an excellent point. There were many Conservatives Eurosceptics who stuck with the party under Major and Cameron and tried to change things from within. Now it seems with the boot on the other foot those not getting their way have been rather cowardly and moved elsewhere rather than trying to influence the direction of a party they were previously loyal to. See also Blairites within Labour. Political parties are a broad church, I remember when Sarah Wollaston defected it said an awful lot more about how slippery she was than it did about the Conservatives.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

    It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.
    I would have voted for the withdrawal agreement, as I regularly made clear. But it was killed by the obsessive opposition of Leavers.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Anorak said:

    Of *course* it's hypothetical. You could have saved yourself a post by reading Beverly's more carefully: "given the choice" was the giveaway.
    Good luck with being given the choice :smiley:

    Not sure many would agree with you headbangers.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,017

    It is a sad indictment of this country that part of brexit has been to trash the output and opinions of the experts who in the background have worked away in their own worlds to try and improve society. Our concerns have been largely ignored and when we question things we are told we are ignorant and undemocratic and even to blame for the mess. Yet every day we are expected to do our job and more. I come from a large family of doctors. Our business is caring for people. The fact that we are deeply upset is a problem for this country.

    I take back my comment.
    Good to hear that you take it back. Especially if your "business is caring for people".
  • I would have voted for the withdrawal agreement, as I regularly made clear. But it was killed by the obsessive opposition of Leavers.
    You said that you no longer felt any allegiance to this country simply because you lost a vote. All else should be seen in that light.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Brom said:

    Good luck with being given the choice :smiley:

    Not sure many would agree with you headbangers.
    Oh I'm sure you're right. Just as very few align closely with the Mark Francois's of this world.

    My way is a lot less damaging to the country, though ;)
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Anorak said:

    Oh I'm sure you're right. Just as very few align closely with the Mark Francois's of this world.

    My way is a lot less damaging to the country, though ;)
    Thankfully we'll never get the chance to find out what the Guy Verhofstadt and Andrew Adonis vision of Britain looks like.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    I would have voted for the withdrawal agreement, as I regularly made clear. But it was killed by the obsessive opposition of Leavers.
    Brexit tenet #1: It's always somebody else's fault.
  • LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

    I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.
    Fake news, Cameron called Kippers mostly loonies, fruitcakes, and racists, not Tory members.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    I am going to assume that we no deal brexit in this comment. I believe that Boris has put a very leave Cabinet together now as a short term measure to ensure Brexit. After brexit if he gets a majority then I believe his next cabinet would be very different. He would, I believe put all factions of the Tory party into cabinet.

    If I was a middle of the road Tory MP I would stay because the best hope of getting the Tory Party they support back and a Ministerial career is to Brexit and then move on.
    What about Tories who do not believe in Brexit ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,153

    The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.
    But they have to say that now,don't they? If they said "we want Corbyn but we would also back Clarke, Vince or whoever", Corbyn would never get a look in to begin with.
  • JohnO said:

    Well, the three activists with whom I consistently felt most aligned and on that proverbial same page have all quit. Astonishing and grotesque that this would have even been contemplated four short years ago.

    I'll be staying and fighting. Possibly cowardice and/or just too much of a wrench since first becoming an activist way way back in 1975. But with a song in the heart, I shall demonstrate the same exemplary loyalty to the new regime (including my own MP, who just happens to be Foreign Secretary) as they displayed to their two immediate predecessors.

    We will get our party back.

    I hope so, we shall always have our regular lunches and drinks come what may.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,205

    Alastair has been scorning democracy since long before the idiotic suggestions about proroguing. Indeed it is the attitude of people like him - and you - that have brought us to this point. Mind you at least you weren't on PB the day after the referendum claiming you had 'lost your country' and that 'The thread of allegiance has been broken'.
    As far as I know nobody on this board has openly and seriously advocated revoking the vote.

    Personally I think the vote was disastrous and highly flawed in its setting up (I think the same about the Sindy vote), but it is an electoral fact that needs to addressed.

    But there are other electoral facts too; the failure to be carried in Scotland and NI cannot be ignored. Nor the outcome of the 2017 election.

    The proper outcome was first a leader who would be honest about the vote -
    - that it was close
    - that it entailed a multi-year endeavour
    - that there were real trade offs to be made
    - that it could not be executed by the efforts of one party.

    There also a desperate need to reassure both Europeans living in this country, and indeed the 48%.

    May flunked it, terribly, egged on by (no particular order) the Daily Mail and the Telegraph, the ERGers, and frankly malevolent agents like Oakeshott, Banks, etc.
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