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"And what first attracted you to the anti-Semite Jeremy Corbyn?"MarqueeMark said:
He doesn't leave much wiggle room to think otherwise, does he?Byronic said:
I sincerely believe Corbyn is an anti-semite.DecrepitJohnL said:
I sincerely doubt Corbyn himself is antisemitic or gives a damn about Jews either way, any more than he has deeply-held views on people who have had their tonsils out. But leaving that aside, are there really that many potential leaders sitting behind him or would it be a similar set of empty suits to the Tory and LibDem successions? I am mildly hopeful they could not be any worse than Corbyn but is there anyone you'd cross the road to hear?Byronic said:
One day we will look back on this period of Labour Party politics with complete astonishment (just as we will look at everything else happening right now).rottenborough said:
I think Labour are already bloody off the rockers.PeterC said:
Emily Thornberry's policy is ridiculous beyond words. She seems to be saying that a potential Labour government should negotiate its own Brexit deal and then ask the voters to reject it. It would be more honest to advocate revocation of A50, but that would put the cat among the pigeons too.Scott_P said:
Look at the polling! It is absolutely dire for Opposition at this point in the cycle.
And everyone knows why it is.
To put it in perspective, there must be a dozen Labour MPs on the back benches, any of whom, if they became leader, would have Labour ahead in the polls by 10 or 15 points. Instead they have chosen to be led by an elderly Jew hater who has them ten points behind. Remarkable.
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That is not fair. UKIP did get 1.8% on a no deal platform at the GE. That is the mandate for no deal. 1.8%Nigelb said:
The quote, I believe, came originally from an article by Richard North, addressed to Dominic Cummings -Cyclefree said:Might some journalist ask the PM or FS or Business Secretary whether they agree with this? And if they do, why they are proposing it as a policy?
https://twitter.com/AcademyOfRock/status/1156121821823012865?s=19
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85645
- which also included this quote from Cummings about holding a second referendum:
"as a matter of democratic accountability, given the enormous importance of so many issues that would be decided in an Article 50 renegotiation – a far, far bigger deal than a normal election – it seems right to give people a vote on it".
It also explains why Leave should not adopt (and did not adopt) no deal as part of their leave argument:
Initially, we will be looking at a slow burn. In what is an arcane field, pro-EU analysts are almost as ignorant as our own. And there is always a possibility that mutual ignorance would cancel out pro- and anti-EU campaigns. But, with this ticking time bomb at the heart of the "no" campaign, it would be unwise to assume that real trade experts will not brief the opposition on the implications of the "WTO option". If that happens, we can expect the FUD to be lethal. The chances of the "no" side winning would quickly recede to nil, especially if the demolition took place in the last weeks of the campaign....
Which demonstrates exactly how much of a mandate the leave vote was for No Deal.
Nil.0 -
No matter how crazy he looks, or behaves, the juggernaut will come out of the process comparatively undamaged. It’s also less capable of altering its settled course at short notice.Byronic said:
Well yes, but that’s also part of the plan. Boris has to look crazy and juvenile enough to go through with it, and not blink. Being the learner driver here is arguably an advantage.Nigelb said:
Except we’re in a saloon car with a learner driver at the controls, facing a juggernaut with 27 drivers at the wheel.Byronic said:
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.Byronic said:
Notable that you didn’t quote this bit -Scott_P said:
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Personally I’d prefer a quiet retirement to EFTA
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I stand corrected.noneoftheabove said:
That is not fair. UKIP did get 1.8% on a no deal platform at the GE. That is the mandate for no deal. 1.8%Nigelb said:
The quote, I believe, came originally from an article by Richard North, addressed to Dominic Cummings -Cyclefree said:Might some journalist ask the PM or FS or Business Secretary whether they agree with this? And if they do, why they are proposing it as a policy?
https://twitter.com/AcademyOfRock/status/1156121821823012865?s=19
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85645
- which also included this quote from Cummings about holding a second referendum:
"as a matter of democratic accountability, given the enormous importance of so many issues that would be decided in an Article 50 renegotiation – a far, far bigger deal than a normal election – it seems right to give people a vote on it".
It also explains why Leave should not adopt (and did not adopt) no deal as part of their leave argument:
Initially, we will be looking at a slow burn. In what is an arcane field, pro-EU analysts are almost as ignorant as our own. And there is always a possibility that mutual ignorance would cancel out pro- and anti-EU campaigns. But, with this ticking time bomb at the heart of the "no" campaign, it would be unwise to assume that real trade experts will not brief the opposition on the implications of the "WTO option". If that happens, we can expect the FUD to be lethal. The chances of the "no" side winning would quickly recede to nil, especially if the demolition took place in the last weeks of the campaign....
Which demonstrates exactly how much of a mandate the leave vote was for No Deal.
Nil.0 -
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
It is the Prime Minister's job at PMQs to deflect five questions then deliver a pre-scripted rant after the sixth, when the LotO cannot respond.noneoftheabove said:
Fortunately there is prime ministers questions where he is obliged to answer forensic questions from a sharp minded leader of the oppostion......SouthamObserver said:
Brave Sir Boris has shat his pants.Scott_P said:
But this is not a surprise. Johnson does not do scrutiny.
Btw: can Jacob Rees-Mogg please ban pre-scripted on grounds of tautology?0 -
Given the choices of Boris or Jezza, I think it is more terrifying than amusing.Pulpstar said:
The amount of people that only consider the big two when they're deciding their vote is amusing.Mysticrose said:
Anecdote alertFenman said:
Let's wait for the Brecon result shall we?justin124 said:
That seems a good call to me. 22% is Labour's highest vote share with Yougov since the EU election two months ago - and suggests that other pollsters will record them not far off 30%. The evidence of polarisation is beginning to appear as we move away from the four-way split of recent weeks.SouthamObserver said:
The Johnson bounce seems to have stabilised with YouGov. The anti-Tory vote is well over 50%, even if you give all BXP votes to them. That makes the next election impossible to call. As No Deal approaches, I wonder how many current LDs and Greens will drift back to Labour - even with Corbyn in charge. I would not be surprised to see parity come September/October time. Johnson may find that in seeking to unify the right, he will also help to unify the left.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was chatting to a tory last night whose tory father is 'hopping mad' about Brexit. Said his father is contemplating voting for Corbyn. His reasoning is that he'd rather stomach 5 yrs of Corbyn than this Boris Brexit disaster.
When I suggested that perhaps, then, the Liberal Democrats were an obvious choice it didn't seem to have occurred.0 -
Dunno about the beeb but it’s here in the guardian.Mysticrose said:
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.Big_G_NorthWales said:
BBC on lineMysticrose said:
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can we get this right.Mysticrose said:
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.Benpointer said:
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.Big_G_NorthWales said:From BBC Business
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
‘Pound rebounds from 28 month low’
https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2019/jul/31/european-stock-markets-to-bounce-back-ahead-of-fed-rate-decision-business-live?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other1 -
I think if he tries to ban anything again it will be used a hundredfold, and more.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is the Prime Minister's job at PMQs to deflect five questions then deliver a pre-scripted rant after the sixth, when the LotO cannot respond.noneoftheabove said:
Fortunately there is prime ministers questions where he is obliged to answer forensic questions from a sharp minded leader of the oppostion......SouthamObserver said:
Brave Sir Boris has shat his pants.Scott_P said:
But this is not a surprise. Johnson does not do scrutiny.
Btw: can Jacob Rees-Mogg please ban pre-scripted on grounds of tautology?0 -
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.1 -
so he doesnt want to talk about Nick then ?Scott_P said:1 -
Ah! Thank you for that.Byronic said:
Dunno about the beeb but it’s here in the guardian.Mysticrose said:
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.Big_G_NorthWales said:
BBC on lineMysticrose said:
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can we get this right.Mysticrose said:
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.Benpointer said:
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.Big_G_NorthWales said:From BBC Business
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
‘Pound rebounds from 28 month low’
https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2019/jul/31/european-stock-markets-to-bounce-back-ahead-of-fed-rate-decision-business-live?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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But it hasn’t, at least against the $Mysticrose said:
Ah! Thank you for that.Byronic said:
Dunno about the beeb but it’s here in the guardian.Mysticrose said:
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.Big_G_NorthWales said:
BBC on lineMysticrose said:
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can we get this right.Mysticrose said:
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.Benpointer said:
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.Big_G_NorthWales said:From BBC Business
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
‘Pound rebounds from 28 month low’
https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2019/jul/31/european-stock-markets-to-bounce-back-ahead-of-fed-rate-decision-business-live?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other0 -
If this holds, it blows Johnson's electoral strategy out of the water. He can only hope that BXP voters ignore Farage. But the only possible way that happens is for him to push ever-more zealously for No Deal - and as he does that he pushes more and more people on the other side to stop him. It's one hell of a mess and cannot end well.Richard_Nabavi said:
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His non-response is really dreadful, isn't he? He undoubtedly whipped this issue up and now, every day, instead of responding he's trying to deflect attention.Alanbrooke said:
so he doesnt want to talk about Nick then ?Scott_P said:
I once thought quite highly of him. He has sunk into the deepest depths. He obviously used the frenzy to fuel his own preferment. Which stinks, frankly.0 -
Well I haven't seem any comment but it certainly isn't true that the £ has rebounded, it has moved less than .2 of a cent against both the Euro and the $ since the UK markets opened.Mysticrose said:
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.Big_G_NorthWales said:
BBC on lineMysticrose said:
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can we get this right.Mysticrose said:
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.Benpointer said:
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.Big_G_NorthWales said:From BBC Business
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.0 -
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.Nigelb said:
No matter how crazy he looks, or behaves, the juggernaut will come out of the process comparatively undamaged. It’s also less capable of altering its settled course at short notice.Byronic said:
Well yes, but that’s also part of the plan. Boris has to look crazy and juvenile enough to go through with it, and not blink. Being the learner driver here is arguably an advantage.Nigelb said:
Except we’re in a saloon car with a learner driver at the controls, facing a juggernaut with 27 drivers at the wheel.Byronic said:
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.Byronic said:
Notable that you didn’t quote this bit -Scott_P said:
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Personally I’d prefer a quiet retirement to EFTA
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.0 -
And want to replace them with policies which favour only the oligarchs.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Mary Lou McDonald!Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/rustinpeace00/status/1156483168972824576edmundintokyo said:A circus tent, somewhere in the late 1960s:
Corbyn: Tell me, wise seer, what will I be?
Fortune Teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party.
Corbyn: I am humbled. And what will be achieved when I am leader of the Labour Party?
Fortune Teller: A command economy, a united Ireland and the destruction of the Conservative Party.
Corbyn: Truly I am blessed. So I will be Prime Minister?
Fortune Teller: No, the Tories will do all that stuff.0 -
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.Byronic said:
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.0 -
Marat was stabbed in his bath.anothernick said:
So they will all meet a grisly end in the near future? Politically anyway, one assumes they will not be publicly guillotined......Richard_Nabavi said:
It's all a bit Danton, Robespierre and Marat.SouthamObserver said:0 -
There is more to politics than pictures. IIRC Farage for instance was pictured getting pissed in a pub on the day of the Peterborough By-election when he might have found it better being involved in the GOTV operation for the TBP. One has to wonder about the logic of such a picture given the polls would close a few hours later. I am glad he went drinking as he and that party lost even if Labour won...Richard_Nabavi said:
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.Byronic said:
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.0 -
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Yes. Early Blair also.Richard_Nabavi said:
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.Byronic said:
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/labour-total-wipeout-boris-johnson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
He’s striding along purposefully. He’s making a vigorous point. His companions are clearly amused.
My head says “Christ. This narcissist will ruin the country.” My subconscious says “no, he’s a good bloke. He’s likeable and funny. We’ll be fine.”
And sometimes the subconscious is more important, as any good politician knows.0 -
Tantrum or not, @kinabalu's point is validAlanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
Plus he said "nob", which is inherently funny.
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You are proposing to linger in Farage's bathroom ... waiting till he disrobes and immerses himself in suds ... and then to do the deed.ydoethur said:
Marat was stabbed in his bath.anothernick said:
So they will all meet a grisly end in the near future? Politically anyway, one assumes they will not be publicly guillotined......Richard_Nabavi said:
It's all a bit Danton, Robespierre and Marat.SouthamObserver said:
Ah, YDoethur, immortality beckons !0 -
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
+1noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Agreed. The lack of plan beyond belief and saying 'I dont want x' makes it seem obvious this is the approach.IanB2 said:
I think the plan is to be stopped by parliament and then play victim.Byronic said:
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.Byronic said:
Notable that you didn’t quote this bit -Scott_P said:
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Putting so many ex ministers back on the backbenches should ensure success.0 -
Delaney should have maintained his poker face. When he started grinning like a wanking chimp everyone knew it was a headshot.Richard_Nabavi said:On topic: Elizabeth Warren's gibe at Delaney was a very good one, and will have gone down well with the target market. Still, it is rather amusing to see her borrowing the Boris line: you only have to 'believe' and the problems will go away.
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Well it certainly has worked on you.Byronic said:
Yes. Early Blair also.Richard_Nabavi said:
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.Byronic said:
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/labour-total-wipeout-boris-johnson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
He’s striding along purposefully. He’s making a vigorous point. His companions are clearly amused.
My head says “Christ. This narcissist will ruin the country.” My subconscious says “no, he’s a good bloke. He’s likeable and funny. We’ll be fine.”
And sometimes the subconscious is more important, as any good politician knows.0 -
Who's the Wat Tyler of Brexit? Jacob Rees-Mogg?Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
0 -
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
1 -
And the object of the somewhat Stalinist no deal oath required for all government appointments is not to make sure all officeholders are no dealers, but to make sure that anyone with qualms about no deal is on the backbenches with maximum freedom to vote Bozo down, when the moment comes.kle4 said:
Agreed. The lack of plan beyond belief and saying 'I dont want x' makes it seem obvious this is the approach.IanB2 said:
I think the plan is to be stopped by parliament and then play victim.Byronic said:
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.Byronic said:
Notable that you didn’t quote this bit -Scott_P said:
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Putting so many ex ministers back on the backbenches should ensure success.0 -
Alex Salmondwilliamglenn said:
Who's the Wat Tyler of Brexit? Jacob Rees-Mogg?Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
0 -
Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn’t. Either way, as long as Corbyn is the alternative I will vote for any party that is best-placed to keep Corbyn out of power.Yorkcity said:
Well it certainly has worked on you.Byronic said:
Yes. Early Blair also.Richard_Nabavi said:
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.Byronic said:
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/labour-total-wipeout-boris-johnson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
He’s striding along purposefully. He’s making a vigorous point. His companions are clearly amused.
My head says “Christ. This narcissist will ruin the country.” My subconscious says “no, he’s a good bloke. He’s likeable and funny. We’ll be fine.”
And sometimes the subconscious is more important, as any good politician knows.0 -
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.1 -
On 3, it's true that nobody knows for certain, but the FX market seems to think it has a pretty good idea. If you think it's wrong you could make a lot of money.Alanbrooke said:
1 yesRichard_Nabavi said:It will be massively harder to reach a deal with the EU after we've left, for multiple reasons:
1. We'll no longer have the Article 50 mechanism, but instead will have to create a new treaty subject to formal ratification by all 27 EU countries, any one of whom will have a veto: even the Walloon parliament gets a say.
2. The fact of our crashing out will harden positions on both sides, making compromise even harder.
3. We'll be negotiating from a position of extreme duress.
2 no - the actors change all the time
3 who knows ? equally they could be in a german led recession0 -
https://twitter.com/eorlins/status/1156382280111333376Dura_Ace said:
Delaney should have maintained his poker face. When he started grinning like a wanking chimp everyone knew it was a headshot.Richard_Nabavi said:On topic: Elizabeth Warren's gibe at Delaney was a very good one, and will have gone down well with the target market. Still, it is rather amusing to see her borrowing the Boris line: you only have to 'believe' and the problems will go away.
0 -
-
I think it’s better to say that the EU is a 27-car freight train. It’s on a fixed track, it can’t change direction, and it takes over a mile to stop.Byronic said:
Well yes, but that’s also part of the plan. Boris has to look crazy and juvenile enough to go through with it, and not blink. Being the learner driver here is arguably an advantage.Nigelb said:
Except we’re in a saloon car with a learner driver at the controls, facing a juggernaut with 27 drivers at the wheel.Byronic said:
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.Byronic said:
Notable that you didn’t quote this bit -Scott_P said:
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Personally I’d prefer a quiet retirement to EFTA0 -
FX is just short term gambling, throw in a minimal rate rise and theyll turn 180 degreesOnlyLivingBoy said:
On 3, it's true that nobody knows for certain, but the FX market seems to think it has a pretty good idea. If you think it's wrong you could make a lot of money.Alanbrooke said:
1 yesRichard_Nabavi said:It will be massively harder to reach a deal with the EU after we've left, for multiple reasons:
1. We'll no longer have the Article 50 mechanism, but instead will have to create a new treaty subject to formal ratification by all 27 EU countries, any one of whom will have a veto: even the Walloon parliament gets a say.
2. The fact of our crashing out will harden positions on both sides, making compromise even harder.
3. We'll be negotiating from a position of extreme duress.
2 no - the actors change all the time
3 who knows ? equally they could be in a german led recession1 -
-
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
0 -
Not his choice though: the SoS for NI is bound to call one if it seems likely it would result in a vote for unification.Scott_P said:0 -
@Philip_Thompson
Ok, where are we? I note your post from last night discussing the Noughties. Whilst valid it runs into the problem I described, which is we just end up considering longer and longer periods of time in greater and greater detail. So a quick summary is in order, as follows.
My position is this. "GBP has fallen. It has done so previously, both recently and in the distant past. This behaviour is undesirable and should be considered in light of its disadvantages. Moving out of Sterling in the long term may be advisable"
Your position is this. "GBP has fallen. It has done so previously, both recently and in the distant past. This behaviour is undramatic and should be considered in context of its advantages. Moving out of Sterling in the long term is unnecessary."
Having noted each others' posts, we can now move through the cycle quicker next time we or other discuss it, which will be within 6-12 months... 0 -
+ 1noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
Immigration becomes ever more compelling.0 -
So assuming that r/PresidentialRaceMemes is fair, unbiased and representative of the general public- an assumption that I'm sure you'll all agree is so self-evidently true I needn't waste precious bytes trying to justify it here- Warren and Sanders did very well at the debate.1
-
Elizabeth Warren is a John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, George McGovern retread, which suits Trump fine.macisback said:
These polls so far out are totally irrelevant when assessing a one on one presidential campaign. With an even wind Warren is all the Dem's have with a decent chance, when you look at the key factors. Going back against Trump with Obama/Clinton retreads seems to me the surest way of losing again, as that will frame the debate. Warren can take Trump on politically and expose him, with her crafted vision.HYUFD said:
The latest Fox poll has Biden beating Trump by 10% but Trump beating Warren by 1%macisback said:
I think she has the best chance of any. She has a vision and the ability to articulate it very well. She will work as hard as Trump as well, which shouldn't be underestimated. I would give her an even chance of beating Trump the others much less.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems Warren won the zinger of the night award. She can be very good in these kinds of debates, but can she beat Trump? I am just not convinced.
https://www.scribd.com/document/420144129/Fox-news-poll-July-29
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote0 -
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
-0 -
You need some more nannies for the ever increasing flock of Gardenwalkers, right?Gardenwalker said:
+ 1noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
Immigration becomes ever more compelling.
0 -
-
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
I must have missed the extensive work you have done ministering to the needs of the poor. Your modesty in never mentioning it does you credit.Alanbrooke said:
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are. 0 -
According to the polling over the last five years, public opinion hasn’t actually changed THAT much. So the SoS is entitled to refuse.rpjs said:
Not his choice though: the SoS for NI is bound to call one if it seems likely it would result in a vote for unification.Scott_P said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland
Interesting to note that younger Ulsterfolk are significantly keener on staying in the UK than 35-55 year olds. These obituaries for the Union might be a bit premature...0 -
You really are out of order.Mysticrose said:
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.Big_G_NorthWales said:
BBC on lineMysticrose said:
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can we get this right.Mysticrose said:
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.Benpointer said:
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.Big_G_NorthWales said:From BBC Business
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
I posted the comments from BBC on line this morning in good faith
You are challenging my integrity and I utterly reject I would make up BBC headlines
Because you cannot find it is not my problem
Indeed you owe me an apology0 -
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.YBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.0 -
oh I think Ive pointed out numerous stupidities over the years usually to be told by people who know best Ive got it wrong, until of course something changes. As for civil work, Ive done my share over the years, no doubt like yourself.viewcode said:
I must have missed the extensive work you have done ministering to the needs of the poor. Your modesty in never mentioning it does you credit.Alanbrooke said:
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working f risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.0 -
E is non working.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Then you need to vote for people who would change that.noneoftheabove said:
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.YBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
can you point out who they are, Id like to vote for them too ?1 -
That's bollocks. Your average middle class Remainer is much more concerned about the poor than the billionaire disaster capitalist funders of the Leave campaign, who simply saw them as useful idiots that could be convinced to vote for their project on the basis of xenophobia and lies. Look at the Dominic Cummings quote on the Tories, poor people and the NHS - the mask slipped for a second there. Stand by for turbocharged Thatcherism in the event of no deal - and a repeat of the increase in inequality that happened then.Alanbrooke said:
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy.
Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.0 -
-
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.Alanbrooke said:
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
-0 -
John Kerry won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. If the Democrats take these narrowly won states back then it is a very competitive national picture. There was an interesting piece on Newsnight or Channel 4 yesterday on the forthcoming presidential election. I find US politics very interesting or rather the elections anyway. Not so interested in the issues!HYUFD said:
Elizabeth Warren is a John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, George McGovern retread, which suits Trump fine.macisback said:
These polls so far out are totally irrelevant when assessing a one on one presidential campaign. With an even wind Warren is all the Dem's have with a decent chance, when you look at the key factors. Going back against Trump with Obama/Clinton retreads seems to me the surest way of losing again, as that will frame the debate. Warren can take Trump on politically and expose him, with her crafted vision.HYUFD said:
The latest Fox poll has Biden beating Trump by 10% but Trump beating Warren by 1%macisback said:
I think she has the best chance of any. She has a vision and the ability to articulate it very well. She will work as hard as Trump as well, which shouldn't be underestimated. I would give her an even chance of beating Trump the others much less.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems Warren won the zinger of the night award. She can be very good in these kinds of debates, but can she beat Trump? I am just not convinced.
https://www.scribd.com/document/420144129/Fox-news-poll-July-29
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote0 -
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Am I allowed to ask how Brexit will financially benefit you? Genuinely curious.OnlyLivingBoy said:
That's bollocks. Your average middle class Remainer is much more concerned about the poor than the billionaire disaster capitalist funders of the Leave campaign, who simply saw them as useful idiots that could be convinced to vote for their project on the basis of xenophobia and lies. Look at the Dominic Cummings quote on the Tories, poor people and the NHS - the mask slipped for a second there. Stand by for turbocharged Thatcherism in the event of no deal - and a repeat of the increase in inequality that happened then.Alanbrooke said:
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy.
Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.0 -
Alternatively, the old voted Leave, the young voted Remain and turnout was highest among the old.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
0 -
Some. Not as much as I should.Alanbrooke said:
oh I think Ive pointed out numerous stupidities over the years usually to be told by people who know best Ive got it wrong, until of course something changes. As for civil work, Ive done my share over the years, no doubt like yourself.viewcode said:
I must have missed the extensive work you have done ministering to the needs of the poor. Your modesty in never mentioning it does you credit.Alanbrooke said:
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working f risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.0 -
Simplistic. How does a Leaver like Rob Smithson, of this manor, fit into any of those categories?viewcode said:
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
-
No. We thought he was a joke.macisback said:
You are just quoting a biased report, Johnson was never considered a vile or an extreme politician at all before he became frontman for Brexit.SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively:Alanbrooke said:
Varadkar, he took a gamble on some populist brit bashing. If he'd cashed in in October last year he's have been a hero and could have called an election and won it. He decided to plough on and now he's headed in to a storm with an election still to come.ydoethur said:
Who's 'he' in this context?Alanbrooke said:
Nope, hes not actually looking, if he was he wouldnt have painted himself in to a corner.ydoethur said:
At least he's looking. Boris reminds me of the climber a few years ago in Wales who got lost in a fog. So he set his GPS to take him to the summit by a direct route. Obediently following it, he fell 600 feet off a cliff that he hadn't spotted on the relief map and somehow hadn't thought to look out for.Alanbrooke said:
As I recall, he lived, but he was not a happy bunny when the rescuers found him.
So how come he stands now before the British, viewed by many as this stoic and dignified statesman? Well, imagine, without smiling ear-to-ear at the very thought, that your job performance was measured on your ability to appear more statesmanlike and consistent than Johnson; more clear and definitive than May; or more truthful and probing than Nigel Farage. Just saying the same thing two days in a row would put you in a handsome lead, even before we get on to the specifics of what is said. Ireland is not just mammothly pro-European, and deeply invested in the Northern Irish peace process, it is aghast at the cohort of nonsensical charlatans that have seized power in Britain. Johnson and his new administration haven’t fully realised just how vile they appear to the rest of the world – and Ireland especially. They are, in short, acting like a pantomime version of the Etonian imperialists Irish people have sung rebel songs about for centuries: a prime minister, who in his time as foreign secretary is said to have asked why Varadkar, a man of Indian heritage, isn’t “called Murphy like all the rest of them”; a foreign secretary who just threatened Northern Ireland with direct rule mere days into the job. Standing up to this is not just strategically essential for Varadkar, it’s as close to a no-risk gambit as exists in modern domestic politics.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/30/leo-varadkar-uk-ireland-boris-johnson0 -
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https://twitter.com/BBCMarkSimpson/status/1156510983222964224rpjs said:
Not his choice though: the SoS for NI is bound to call one if it seems likely it would result in a vote for unification.Scott_P said:0 -
There were a few liberal and libertarian pro EEA Leavers like RCS as wellByronic said:
Simplistic. How does a Leaver like Rob Smithson, of this manor, fit into any of those categories?viewcode said:
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
I sincerely doubt Leave are the only people who have billionaires backing them, Remain based on the corporate vote have more than their fair share. As for the policies you support that;s fine, but the people you are supporting arent implementing them. Its just as easy to say you have been duped and lied to by well off corporatists.OnlyLivingBoy said:
That's bollocks. Your average middle class Remainer is much more concerned about the poor than the billionaire disaster capitalist funders of the Leave campaign, who simply saw them as useful idiots that could be convinced to vote for their project on the basis of xenophobia and lies. Look at the Dominic Cummings quote on the Tories, poor people and the NHS - the mask slipped for a second there. Stand by for turbocharged Thatcherism in the event of no deal - and a repeat of the increase in inequality that happened then.Alanbrooke said:
and didnt give a shit about themYBarddCwsc said:
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classe and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy.
Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.1 -
Kerry also lost Virginia and Colorado and Nevada and New Mexico which Hillary wonThe_Taxman said:
John Kerry won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. If the Democrats take these narrowly won states back then it is a very competitive national picture. There was an interesting piece on Newsnight or Channel 4 yesterday on the forthcoming presidential election. I find US politics very interesting or rather the elections anyway. Not so interested in the issues!HYUFD said:
Elizabeth Warren is a John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, George McGovern retread, which suits Trump fine.macisback said:
These polls so far out are totally irrelevant when assessing a one on one presidential campaign. With an even wind Warren is all the Dem's have with a decent chance, when you look at the key factors. Going back against Trump with Obama/Clinton retreads seems to me the surest way of losing again, as that will frame the debate. Warren can take Trump on politically and expose him, with her crafted vision.HYUFD said:
The latest Fox poll has Biden beating Trump by 10% but Trump beating Warren by 1%macisback said:
I think she has the best chance of any. She has a vision and the ability to articulate it very well. She will work as hard as Trump as well, which shouldn't be underestimated. I would give her an even chance of beating Trump the others much less.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems Warren won the zinger of the night award. She can be very good in these kinds of debates, but can she beat Trump? I am just not convinced.
https://www.scribd.com/document/420144129/Fox-news-poll-July-29
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote0 -
It's good to see how stoically you're coping with the trials of democracy. Or maybe you need a hug from gran.noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.0 -
Ebbw Vale is the main town in Blaenau Gwent, the most Leaver-y constituency in the country.noneoftheabove said:
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
0 -
That is also a valid interpretation.SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively, the old voted Leave, the young voted Remain and turnout was highest among the old.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Aka useful idiots.HYUFD said:
There were a few liberal and libertarian pro EEA Leavers like RCS as wellByronic said:
Simplistic. How does a Leaver like Rob Smithson, of this manor, fit into any of those categories?viewcode said:
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Farage holds the trump card. He 100% owns The Brexit Party. It is his asset including the brand name. He can simply close it down if he gets a big enough price in return. What is it worth to Johnson for the Brexit Party to be disbanded? It gives him a big majority.SouthamObserver said:
If this holds, it blows Johnson's electoral strategy out of the water. He can only hope that BXP voters ignore Farage. But the only possible way that happens is for him to push ever-more zealously for No Deal - and as he does that he pushes more and more people on the other side to stop him. It's one hell of a mess and cannot end well.Richard_Nabavi said:
How about Ambassador to the US for Farage with a special responsibility for the US/UK Trade Deal, and Cummings fired as the kicker? Is there a deal to be made there?0 -
lol - I am not laughing at you but the message! Where is the 'taking back control' in this message if an external body is going to decide on the UKs future trade and political relationship. Johnson is saying it is for them to decide rather than him as PM. It is not a good look and if we had a decent opposition they would be calling Johnson weak...HYUFD said:0 -
Afternoon all
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?
0 -
why do you think jobs and the economy arrent important to older people ?noneoftheabove said:
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.Alanbrooke said:
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Breo party has graped the nettle.noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
-1 -
-
Why on earth would anyone claim Boris etc. aren't true Leavers? For all his trenchant No Deal rhetoric, is Boris still not getting through to TBP types? Very worrying if so - the vast majority of Remainers and moderate Leavers are definitely believing it. Boris is disappearing down a hole in middle!HYUFD said:0 -
Early 1980s, Macmilan, Home, Wilson, Heath, Callaghanstodge said:Afternoon all
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?0 -
The middle class in the South East largely voted Leave, didn't it?YBarddCwsc said:
Ebbw Vale is the main town in Blaenau Gwent, the most Leaver-y constituency in the country.noneoftheabove said:
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
Out of interest, what percentage of the 16 million plus Remain voters do you think have lived and worked abroad?
0 -
I was thinking the same just yesterday! They are also all against No Deal Brexit and certainly pre TM against any Brexit...stodge said:Afternoon all
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?0 -
A very large proportion of the young failed to vote in 2016.....noneoftheabove said:
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.Alanbrooke said:
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
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I think you do chimps a disservice.Dura_Ace said:
Delaney should have maintained his poker face. When he started grinning like a wanking chimp everyone knew it was a headshot.Richard_Nabavi said:On topic: Elizabeth Warren's gibe at Delaney was a very good one, and will have gone down well with the target market. Still, it is rather amusing to see her borrowing the Boris line: you only have to 'believe' and the problems will go away.
That grin is way weirder.
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/11563864556374138880 -
Boris actually has a 21% lead over Corbyn as best PM today with Yougov, just Farage trying to preserve his party by bashing Boris and CummingsStark_Dawning said:
Why on earth would anyone claim Boris etc. aren't true Leavers? For all his trenchant No Deal rhetoric, is Boris still not getting through to TBP types? Very worrying if so - the vast majority of Remainers and moderate Leavers are definitely believing it. Boris is disappearing down a hole in middle!HYUFD said:0 -
Because they voted Leave!!!Alanbrooke said:
why do you think jobs and the economy arrent important to older people ?noneoftheabove said:
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.Alanbrooke said:
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Breo party has graped the nettle.noneoftheabove said:
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
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Yup - if you can't be arsed to vote.... .SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively, the old voted Leave, the young voted Remain and turnout was highest among the old.HYUFD said:
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leavenoneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.0 -
Thatcher would been pro BrexitThe_Taxman said:
I was thinking the same just yesterday! They are also all against No Deal Brexit and certainly pre TM against any Brexit...stodge said:Afternoon all
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?0 -
Exactly - this is what won it for Leave, not some mass revolt by the working class. You have to get to the 45+ percentile before you get a Leave majority, but the fact is far more over 45s voted in the referendum than under 45s and, whatever their social class, they were much more likely to vote Leave.felix said:
A very large proportion of the young failed to vote in 2016.....noneoftheabove said:
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.Alanbrooke said:
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.noneoftheabove said:
How anything and nothing happens.Alanbrooke said:
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.noneoftheabove said:
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.Alanbrooke said:
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.kinabalu said:
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.Alanbrooke said:the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
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Everyone I know bar 2 voted remain.SouthamObserver said:
The middle class in the South East largely voted Leave, didn't it?YBarddCwsc said:
Ebbw Vale is the main town in Blaenau Gwent, the most Leaver-y constituency in the country.noneoftheabove said:
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
Out of interest, what percentage of the 16 million plus Remain voters do you think have lived and worked abroad?0
This discussion has been closed.