Emily Thornberry's policy is ridiculous beyond words. She seems to be saying that a potential Labour government should negotiate its own Brexit deal and then ask the voters to reject it. It would be more honest to advocate revocation of A50, but that would put the cat among the pigeons too.
I think Labour are already bloody off the rockers.
Look at the polling! It is absolutely dire for Opposition at this point in the cycle.
And everyone knows why it is.
One day we will look back on this period of Labour Party politics with complete astonishment (just as we will look at everything else happening right now).
To put it in perspective, there must be a dozen Labour MPs on the back benches, any of whom, if they became leader, would have Labour ahead in the polls by 10 or 15 points. Instead they have chosen to be led by an elderly Jew hater who has them ten points behind. Remarkable.
I sincerely doubt Corbyn himself is antisemitic or gives a damn about Jews either way, any more than he has deeply-held views on people who have had their tonsils out. But leaving that aside, are there really that many potential leaders sitting behind him or would it be a similar set of empty suits to the Tory and LibDem successions? I am mildly hopeful they could not be any worse than Corbyn but is there anyone you'd cross the road to hear?
I sincerely believe Corbyn is an anti-semite.
He doesn't leave much wiggle room to think otherwise, does he?
"And what first attracted you to the anti-Semite Jeremy Corbyn?"
The quote, I believe, came originally from an article by Richard North, addressed to Dominic Cummings - http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85645 - which also included this quote from Cummings about holding a second referendum: "as a matter of democratic accountability, given the enormous importance of so many issues that would be decided in an Article 50 renegotiation – a far, far bigger deal than a normal election – it seems right to give people a vote on it".
It also explains why Leave should not adopt (and did not adopt) no deal as part of their leave argument: Initially, we will be looking at a slow burn. In what is an arcane field, pro-EU analysts are almost as ignorant as our own. And there is always a possibility that mutual ignorance would cancel out pro- and anti-EU campaigns. But, with this ticking time bomb at the heart of the "no" campaign, it would be unwise to assume that real trade experts will not brief the opposition on the implications of the "WTO option". If that happens, we can expect the FUD to be lethal. The chances of the "no" side winning would quickly recede to nil, especially if the demolition took place in the last weeks of the campaign.... Which demonstrates exactly how much of a mandate the leave vote was for No Deal. Nil.
That is not fair. UKIP did get 1.8% on a no deal platform at the GE. That is the mandate for no deal. 1.8%
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Except we’re in a saloon car with a learner driver at the controls, facing a juggernaut with 27 drivers at the wheel.
Well yes, but that’s also part of the plan. Boris has to look crazy and juvenile enough to go through with it, and not blink. Being the learner driver here is arguably an advantage.
Personally I’d prefer a quiet retirement to EFTA
No matter how crazy he looks, or behaves, the juggernaut will come out of the process comparatively undamaged. It’s also less capable of altering its settled course at short notice.
The quote, I believe, came originally from an article by Richard North, addressed to Dominic Cummings - http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85645 - which also included this quote from Cummings about holding a second referendum: "as a matter of democratic accountability, given the enormous importance of so many issues that would be decided in an Article 50 renegotiation – a far, far bigger deal than a normal election – it seems right to give people a vote on it".
It also explains why Leave should not adopt (and did not adopt) no deal as part of their leave argument: Initially, we will be looking at a slow burn. In what is an arcane field, pro-EU analysts are almost as ignorant as our own. And there is always a possibility that mutual ignorance would cancel out pro- and anti-EU campaigns. But, with this ticking time bomb at the heart of the "no" campaign, it would be unwise to assume that real trade experts will not brief the opposition on the implications of the "WTO option". If that happens, we can expect the FUD to be lethal. The chances of the "no" side winning would quickly recede to nil, especially if the demolition took place in the last weeks of the campaign.... Which demonstrates exactly how much of a mandate the leave vote was for No Deal. Nil.
That is not fair. UKIP did get 1.8% on a no deal platform at the GE. That is the mandate for no deal. 1.8%
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
The Johnson bounce seems to have stabilised with YouGov. The anti-Tory vote is well over 50%, even if you give all BXP votes to them. That makes the next election impossible to call. As No Deal approaches, I wonder how many current LDs and Greens will drift back to Labour - even with Corbyn in charge. I would not be surprised to see parity come September/October time. Johnson may find that in seeking to unify the right, he will also help to unify the left.
That seems a good call to me. 22% is Labour's highest vote share with Yougov since the EU election two months ago - and suggests that other pollsters will record them not far off 30%. The evidence of polarisation is beginning to appear as we move away from the four-way split of recent weeks.
Let's wait for the Brecon result shall we?
Anecdote alert
I was chatting to a tory last night whose tory father is 'hopping mad' about Brexit. Said his father is contemplating voting for Corbyn. His reasoning is that he'd rather stomach 5 yrs of Corbyn than this Boris Brexit disaster.
When I suggested that perhaps, then, the Liberal Democrats were an obvious choice it didn't seem to have occurred.
The amount of people that only consider the big two when they're deciding their vote is amusing.
Given the choices of Boris or Jezza, I think it is more terrifying than amusing.
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.
Can we get this right.
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
BBC on line
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
Dunno about the beeb but it’s here in the guardian.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.
Can we get this right.
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
BBC on line
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
Dunno about the beeb but it’s here in the guardian.
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.
Can we get this right.
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
BBC on line
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
Dunno about the beeb but it’s here in the guardian.
If this holds, it blows Johnson's electoral strategy out of the water. He can only hope that BXP voters ignore Farage. But the only possible way that happens is for him to push ever-more zealously for No Deal - and as he does that he pushes more and more people on the other side to stop him. It's one hell of a mess and cannot end well.
His non-response is really dreadful, isn't he? He undoubtedly whipped this issue up and now, every day, instead of responding he's trying to deflect attention.
I once thought quite highly of him. He has sunk into the deepest depths. He obviously used the frenzy to fuel his own preferment. Which stinks, frankly.
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.
Can we get this right.
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
BBC on line
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
Well I haven't seem any comment but it certainly isn't true that the £ has rebounded, it has moved less than .2 of a cent against both the Euro and the $ since the UK markets opened.
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Except we’re in a saloon car with a learner driver at the controls, facing a juggernaut with 27 drivers at the wheel.
Well yes, but that’s also part of the plan. Boris has to look crazy and juvenile enough to go through with it, and not blink. Being the learner driver here is arguably an advantage.
Personally I’d prefer a quiet retirement to EFTA
No matter how crazy he looks, or behaves, the juggernaut will come out of the process comparatively undamaged. It’s also less capable of altering its settled course at short notice.
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
And want to replace them with policies which favour only the oligarchs.
Corbyn: Tell me, wise seer, what will I be? Fortune Teller: I see great things for you, you will become leader of the Labour Party. Corbyn: I am humbled. And what will be achieved when I am leader of the Labour Party? Fortune Teller: A command economy, a united Ireland and the destruction of the Conservative Party. Corbyn: Truly I am blessed. So I will be Prime Minister? Fortune Teller: No, the Tories will do all that stuff.
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.
There is more to politics than pictures. IIRC Farage for instance was pictured getting pissed in a pub on the day of the Peterborough By-election when he might have found it better being involved in the GOTV operation for the TBP. One has to wonder about the logic of such a picture given the polls would close a few hours later. I am glad he went drinking as he and that party lost even if Labour won...
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.
Yes. Early Blair also.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
I think the plan is to be stopped by parliament and then play victim.
Putting so many ex ministers back on the backbenches should ensure success.
Agreed. The lack of plan beyond belief and saying 'I dont want x' makes it seem obvious this is the approach.
On topic: Elizabeth Warren's gibe at Delaney was a very good one, and will have gone down well with the target market. Still, it is rather amusing to see her borrowing the Boris line: you only have to 'believe' and the problems will go away.
Delaney should have maintained his poker face. When he started grinning like a wanking chimp everyone knew it was a headshot.
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.
Yes. Early Blair also.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
I think the plan is to be stopped by parliament and then play victim.
Putting so many ex ministers back on the backbenches should ensure success.
Agreed. The lack of plan beyond belief and saying 'I dont want x' makes it seem obvious this is the approach.
And the object of the somewhat Stalinist no deal oath required for all government appointments is not to make sure all officeholders are no dealers, but to make sure that anyone with qualms about no deal is on the backbenches with maximum freedom to vote Bozo down, when the moment comes.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
I largely agree. I’m just speculating as to the potential plans being hatched in number 10.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
Farage is also always careful to be smiling when he's photographed.
Yes. Early Blair also.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
He’s striding along purposefully. He’s making a vigorous point. His companions are clearly amused.
My head says “Christ. This narcissist will ruin the country.” My subconscious says “no, he’s a good bloke. He’s likeable and funny. We’ll be fine.”
And sometimes the subconscious is more important, as any good politician knows.
Well it certainly has worked on you.
Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn’t. Either way, as long as Corbyn is the alternative I will vote for any party that is best-placed to keep Corbyn out of power.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
It will be massively harder to reach a deal with the EU after we've left, for multiple reasons:
1. We'll no longer have the Article 50 mechanism, but instead will have to create a new treaty subject to formal ratification by all 27 EU countries, any one of whom will have a veto: even the Walloon parliament gets a say.
2. The fact of our crashing out will harden positions on both sides, making compromise even harder.
3. We'll be negotiating from a position of extreme duress.
1 yes 2 no - the actors change all the time 3 who knows ? equally they could be in a german led recession
On 3, it's true that nobody knows for certain, but the FX market seems to think it has a pretty good idea. If you think it's wrong you could make a lot of money.
On topic: Elizabeth Warren's gibe at Delaney was a very good one, and will have gone down well with the target market. Still, it is rather amusing to see her borrowing the Boris line: you only have to 'believe' and the problems will go away.
Delaney should have maintained his poker face. When he started grinning like a wanking chimp everyone knew it was a headshot.
“The hand of Cummings is already being felt: there’s more discipline coming from government sources, but then you'd expect that – this is as united as the team is ever going to be – and that is also the whole point of Cummings, to rule with an iron fist.”
It is also unfair to Theresa May who at least had a plan. Perhaps not a plan that withstood contact with reality in Brussels or Westminster, but a plan nonetheless. It is not clear that Boris does have a plan. He wants a better deal but there has not been much detail, apart from its being, well, better.
I think he has a plan, the problem is it isn’t very good.
The plan is to sincerely and genuinely prepare for no deal, in the hope that a terrified EU will then offer us a version of the withdrawal agreement, but without the backstop.
The plan is to play chicken.
Except we’re in a saloon car with a learner driver at the controls, facing a juggernaut with 27 drivers at the wheel.
Well yes, but that’s also part of the plan. Boris has to look crazy and juvenile enough to go through with it, and not blink. Being the learner driver here is arguably an advantage.
Personally I’d prefer a quiet retirement to EFTA
I think it’s better to say that the EU is a 27-car freight train. It’s on a fixed track, it can’t change direction, and it takes over a mile to stop.
It will be massively harder to reach a deal with the EU after we've left, for multiple reasons:
1. We'll no longer have the Article 50 mechanism, but instead will have to create a new treaty subject to formal ratification by all 27 EU countries, any one of whom will have a veto: even the Walloon parliament gets a say.
2. The fact of our crashing out will harden positions on both sides, making compromise even harder.
3. We'll be negotiating from a position of extreme duress.
1 yes 2 no - the actors change all the time 3 who knows ? equally they could be in a german led recession
On 3, it's true that nobody knows for certain, but the FX market seems to think it has a pretty good idea. If you think it's wrong you could make a lot of money.
FX is just short term gambling, throw in a minimal rate rise and theyll turn 180 degrees
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
Ok, where are we? I note your post from last night discussing the Noughties. Whilst valid it runs into the problem I described, which is we just end up considering longer and longer periods of time in greater and greater detail. So a quick summary is in order, as follows.
My position is this. "GBP has fallen. It has done so previously, both recently and in the distant past. This behaviour is undesirable and should be considered in light of its disadvantages. Moving out of Sterling in the long term may be advisable"
Your position is this. "GBP has fallen. It has done so previously, both recently and in the distant past. This behaviour is undramatic and should be considered in context of its advantages. Moving out of Sterling in the long term is unnecessary."
Having noted each others' posts, we can now move through the cycle quicker next time we or other discuss it, which will be within 6-12 months...
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
So assuming that r/PresidentialRaceMemes is fair, unbiased and representative of the general public- an assumption that I'm sure you'll all agree is so self-evidently true I needn't waste precious bytes trying to justify it here- Warren and Sanders did very well at the debate.
Seems Warren won the zinger of the night award. She can be very good in these kinds of debates, but can she beat Trump? I am just not convinced.
I think she has the best chance of any. She has a vision and the ability to articulate it very well. She will work as hard as Trump as well, which shouldn't be underestimated. I would give her an even chance of beating Trump the others much less.
The latest Fox poll has Biden beating Trump by 10% but Trump beating Warren by 1%
These polls so far out are totally irrelevant when assessing a one on one presidential campaign. With an even wind Warren is all the Dem's have with a decent chance, when you look at the key factors. Going back against Trump with Obama/Clinton retreads seems to me the surest way of losing again, as that will frame the debate. Warren can take Trump on politically and expose him, with her crafted vision.
Elizabeth Warren is a John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, George McGovern retread, which suits Trump fine.
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
+ 1 Immigration becomes ever more compelling.
You need some more nannies for the ever increasing flock of Gardenwalkers, right?
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
and didnt give a shit about them
I must have missed the extensive work you have done ministering to the needs of the poor. Your modesty in never mentioning it does you credit.
Interesting to note that younger Ulsterfolk are significantly keener on staying in the UK than 35-55 year olds. These obituaries for the Union might be a bit premature...
Eurozone economic growth halves and inflation slows
Eurozone grows by 0.2% in second quarter
Fed expected to cut rates for first time in a decade
Pound rebounds from 28-month low
Honestly Big_G, I think calling a 0.1% rise a 'rebound' is pushing it a bit.
I don't normally bet on currency markets but I'm prepared to bet a tenner with BIG G that the pound will be lower than its current value one month from now. My point being, that claiming a 0.1% rise at 9.55am, which has already evaporated, really pays no attention to the short and medium sterling trend. Which we all should know ... is south.
Can we get this right.
I did not do anything than post a 'BBC business' headline.
Additionally I do not bet and I have no idea where the currency will be in three months time anymore than anyone else
It depends on far too many variables
Can you post the link to where the BBC mentioned 'rebound.'?
And can we get this right. This is a betting site. Variables are our metier.
BBC on line
Where? Can you post the link please. I follow the BBC carefully and haven't seen any such comment this morning about the pound rebounding.
I notice that Malcolmg has risen up in your support (presumably still not forgiving me for calling him out over his SNP-driven hatred of all things Jo Swinson) but if you're going to post something as fact, and then castigate others on here for questioning your position and stating 'don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger' you need to be sure of your facts.
So can we take it that, in fact, the BBC did not report that the pound has "rebounded?" I'd genuinely like you to correct me. So please do.
You really are out of order.
I posted the comments from BBC on line this morning in good faith
You are challenging my integrity and I utterly reject I would make up BBC headlines
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working f risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
and didnt give a shit about them
I must have missed the extensive work you have done ministering to the needs of the poor. Your modesty in never mentioning it does you credit.
oh I think Ive pointed out numerous stupidities over the years usually to be told by people who know best Ive got it wrong, until of course something changes. As for civil work, Ive done my share over the years, no doubt like yourself.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
Then you need to vote for people who would change that.
can you point out who they are, Id like to vote for them too ?
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
and didnt give a shit about them
That's bollocks. Your average middle class Remainer is much more concerned about the poor than the billionaire disaster capitalist funders of the Leave campaign, who simply saw them as useful idiots that could be convinced to vote for their project on the basis of xenophobia and lies. Look at the Dominic Cummings quote on the Tories, poor people and the NHS - the mask slipped for a second there. Stand by for turbocharged Thatcherism in the event of no deal - and a repeat of the increase in inequality that happened then. I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy. Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.
-
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.
Seems Warren won the zinger of the night award. She can be very good in these kinds of debates, but can she beat Trump? I am just not convinced.
I think she has the best chance of any. She has a vision and the ability to articulate it very well. She will work as hard as Trump as well, which shouldn't be underestimated. I would give her an even chance of beating Trump the others much less.
The latest Fox poll has Biden beating Trump by 10% but Trump beating Warren by 1%
These polls so far out are totally irrelevant when assessing a one on one presidential campaign. With an even wind Warren is all the Dem's have with a decent chance, when you look at the key factors. Going back against Trump with Obama/Clinton retreads seems to me the surest way of losing again, as that will frame the debate. Warren can take Trump on politically and expose him, with her crafted vision.
Elizabeth Warren is a John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, George McGovern retread, which suits Trump fine.
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote
John Kerry won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. If the Democrats take these narrowly won states back then it is a very competitive national picture. There was an interesting piece on Newsnight or Channel 4 yesterday on the forthcoming presidential election. I find US politics very interesting or rather the elections anyway. Not so interested in the issues!
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
and didnt give a shit about them
That's bollocks. Your average middle class Remainer is much more concerned about the poor than the billionaire disaster capitalist funders of the Leave campaign, who simply saw them as useful idiots that could be convinced to vote for their project on the basis of xenophobia and lies. Look at the Dominic Cummings quote on the Tories, poor people and the NHS - the mask slipped for a second there. Stand by for turbocharged Thatcherism in the event of no deal - and a repeat of the increase in inequality that happened then. I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy. Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.
Am I allowed to ask how Brexit will financially benefit you? Genuinely curious.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
Alternatively, the old voted Leave, the young voted Remain and turnout was highest among the old.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working f risky and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
and didnt give a shit about them
I must have missed the extensive work you have done ministering to the needs of the poor. Your modesty in never mentioning it does you credit.
oh I think Ive pointed out numerous stupidities over the years usually to be told by people who know best Ive got it wrong, until of course something changes. As for civil work, Ive done my share over the years, no doubt like yourself.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.
Simplistic. How does a Leaver like Rob Smithson, of this manor, fit into any of those categories?
At least he's looking. Boris reminds me of the climber a few years ago in Wales who got lost in a fog. So he set his GPS to take him to the summit by a direct route. Obediently following it, he fell 600 feet off a cliff that he hadn't spotted on the relief map and somehow hadn't thought to look out for.
As I recall, he lived, but he was not a happy bunny when the rescuers found him.
Nope, hes not actually looking, if he was he wouldnt have painted himself in to a corner.
Who's 'he' in this context?
Varadkar, he took a gamble on some populist brit bashing. If he'd cashed in in October last year he's have been a hero and could have called an election and won it. He decided to plough on and now he's headed in to a storm with an election still to come.
Alternatively:
So how come he stands now before the British, viewed by many as this stoic and dignified statesman? Well, imagine, without smiling ear-to-ear at the very thought, that your job performance was measured on your ability to appear more statesmanlike and consistent than Johnson; more clear and definitive than May; or more truthful and probing than Nigel Farage. Just saying the same thing two days in a row would put you in a handsome lead, even before we get on to the specifics of what is said. Ireland is not just mammothly pro-European, and deeply invested in the Northern Irish peace process, it is aghast at the cohort of nonsensical charlatans that have seized power in Britain. Johnson and his new administration haven’t fully realised just how vile they appear to the rest of the world – and Ireland especially. They are, in short, acting like a pantomime version of the Etonian imperialists Irish people have sung rebel songs about for centuries: a prime minister, who in his time as foreign secretary is said to have asked why Varadkar, a man of Indian heritage, isn’t “called Murphy like all the rest of them”; a foreign secretary who just threatened Northern Ireland with direct rule mere days into the job. Standing up to this is not just strategically essential for Varadkar, it’s as close to a no-risk gambit as exists in modern domestic politics.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.
Simplistic. How does a Leaver like Rob Smithson, of this manor, fit into any of those categories?
There were a few liberal and libertarian pro EEA Leavers like RCS as well
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classe and stressful.
There are very few "far richer than us", owning "acres of land". Not enough to account for 52 per cent of the Referendum vote.
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
and didnt give a shit about them
That's bollocks. Your average middle class Remainer is much more concerned about the poor than the billionaire disaster capitalist funders of the Leave campaign, who simply saw them as useful idiots that could be convinced to vote for their project on the basis of xenophobia and lies. Look at the Dominic Cummings quote on the Tories, poor people and the NHS - the mask slipped for a second there. Stand by for turbocharged Thatcherism in the event of no deal - and a repeat of the increase in inequality that happened then. I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy. Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.
I sincerely doubt Leave are the only people who have billionaires backing them, Remain based on the corporate vote have more than their fair share. As for the policies you support that;s fine, but the people you are supporting arent implementing them. Its just as easy to say you have been duped and lied to by well off corporatists.
Seems Warren won the zinger of the night award. She can be very good in these kinds of debates, but can she beat Trump? I am just not convinced.
I think she has the best chance of any. She has a vision and the ability to articulate it very well. She will work as hard as Trump as well, which shouldn't be underestimated. I would give her an even chance of beating Trump the others much less.
The latest Fox poll has Biden beating Trump by 10% but Trump beating Warren by 1%
These polls so far out are totally irrelevant when assessing a one on one presidential campaign. With an even wind Warren is all the Dem's have with a decent chance, when you look at the key factors. Going back against Trump with Obama/Clinton retreads seems to me the surest way of losing again, as that will frame the debate. Warren can take Trump on politically and expose him, with her crafted vision.
Elizabeth Warren is a John Kerry, Michael Dukakis, George McGovern retread, which suits Trump fine.
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote
John Kerry won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. If the Democrats take these narrowly won states back then it is a very competitive national picture. There was an interesting piece on Newsnight or Channel 4 yesterday on the forthcoming presidential election. I find US politics very interesting or rather the elections anyway. Not so interested in the issues!
Kerry also lost Virginia and Colorado and Nevada and New Mexico which Hillary won
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
It's good to see how stoically you're coping with the trials of democracy. Or maybe you need a hug from gran.
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
Ebbw Vale is the main town in Blaenau Gwent, the most Leaver-y constituency in the country.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
Alternatively, the old voted Leave, the young voted Remain and turnout was highest among the old.
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
If Goodwin is correct, Leave was a coalition between the poor, the retired, and wealthy social conservatives. Two by themselves is not enough, all three had to be present.
Simplistic. How does a Leaver like Rob Smithson, of this manor, fit into any of those categories?
There were a few liberal and libertarian pro EEA Leavers like RCS as well
If this holds, it blows Johnson's electoral strategy out of the water. He can only hope that BXP voters ignore Farage. But the only possible way that happens is for him to push ever-more zealously for No Deal - and as he does that he pushes more and more people on the other side to stop him. It's one hell of a mess and cannot end well.
Farage holds the trump card. He 100% owns The Brexit Party. It is his asset including the brand name. He can simply close it down if he gets a big enough price in return. What is it worth to Johnson for the Brexit Party to be disbanded? It gives him a big majority.
How about Ambassador to the US for Farage with a special responsibility for the US/UK Trade Deal, and Cummings fired as the kicker? Is there a deal to be made there?
lol - I am not laughing at you but the message! Where is the 'taking back control' in this message if an external body is going to decide on the UKs future trade and political relationship. Johnson is saying it is for them to decide rather than him as PM. It is not a good look and if we had a decent opposition they would be calling Johnson weak...
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major Tony Blair Gordon Brown David Cameron Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Breo party has graped the nettle.
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The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.
why do you think jobs and the economy arrent important to older people ?
Why on earth would anyone claim Boris etc. aren't true Leavers? For all his trenchant No Deal rhetoric, is Boris still not getting through to TBP types? Very worrying if so - the vast majority of Remainers and moderate Leavers are definitely believing it. Boris is disappearing down a hole in middle!
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major Tony Blair Gordon Brown David Cameron Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?
Early 1980s, Macmilan, Home, Wilson, Heath, Callaghan
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
Ebbw Vale is the main town in Blaenau Gwent, the most Leaver-y constituency in the country.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
The middle class in the South East largely voted Leave, didn't it?
Out of interest, what percentage of the 16 million plus Remain voters do you think have lived and worked abroad?
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major Tony Blair Gordon Brown David Cameron Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?
I was thinking the same just yesterday! They are also all against No Deal Brexit and certainly pre TM against any Brexit...
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.
-
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.
A very large proportion of the young failed to vote in 2016.....
On topic: Elizabeth Warren's gibe at Delaney was a very good one, and will have gone down well with the target market. Still, it is rather amusing to see her borrowing the Boris line: you only have to 'believe' and the problems will go away.
Delaney should have maintained his poker face. When he started grinning like a wanking chimp everyone knew it was a headshot.
I think you do chimps a disservice. That grin is way weirder.
Why on earth would anyone claim Boris etc. aren't true Leavers? For all his trenchant No Deal rhetoric, is Boris still not getting through to TBP types? Very worrying if so - the vast majority of Remainers and moderate Leavers are definitely believing it. Boris is disappearing down a hole in middle!
Boris actually has a 21% lead over Corbyn as best PM today with Yougov, just Farage trying to preserve his party by bashing Boris and Cummings
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How exactly? Pensioners have never been richer, yet they want to trash the economy? They have a triple lock, own a bigger a share of assets than ever before, own huge stocks of residential housing which those working and under 50 have to rent from them as well as pay their taxes. What else should we have done to improve the lives of pensioners further? If we try to fund care properly, as govts have flirted with, pensioners go up in arms over them paying anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Breo party has graped the nettle.
-
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.
why do you think jobs and the economy arrent important to older people ?
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
The upper middle classes voted Remain and the lower middle classes were split, it was working class C2 and DE voters who won the referendum for Leave
Alternatively, the old voted Leave, the young voted Remain and turnout was highest among the old.
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major Tony Blair Gordon Brown David Cameron Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?
I was thinking the same just yesterday! They are also all against No Deal Brexit and certainly pre TM against any Brexit...
the whole of Brexit was totally avoidable if UK politicans had not ignored large slices of the electorate. This is simply the modern version of the Peasants revolt.
The peasants may well be revolting but so is middle England and the whole thing is led by the nobs.
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
the middle classes are having a tantrum because the electorate is saying they doint like policies which only favour the middle classes.
If by middle classes you mean anyone working for a living then yes we have had enough of being squeezed further at the expense of those relying on state support, especially the demographic that is far richer than us, owns acres of land, voted for Brexit and now want us to fully compensate them for their loss in income from Brexit whilst our jobs become more risky and stressful.
then maybe you should have spent more time listening to the other demographics and you would have avoided the problem.
How anything and nothing happens.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
youre simply suffering the penalties for the mistakes made 10-15 years ago and which the people you vote for implemented. the Brexit vote has turned a lot of the comfortable nostrums on their head and shaken the UK up. theres still more to come before we find a new settlement, and so far no party has graped the nettle.
-
The people in charge of society 10-15 years ago are the same people I am complaining about!! It was not up to me, my cohort or those younger than me who tended to vote remain, because jobs and the economy are important to our future.
A very large proportion of the young failed to vote in 2016.....
Exactly - this is what won it for Leave, not some mass revolt by the working class. You have to get to the 45+ percentile before you get a Leave majority, but the fact is far more over 45s voted in the referendum than under 45s and, whatever their social class, they were much more likely to vote Leave.
I have no problem with those who voted leave who have been left out of the econony and society over the last 20 years and unlike others I dont think they will be the worst hit by Brexit. An orderly Brexit need not even be a disaster but no deal will be.
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
Ebbw Vale is the main town in Blaenau Gwent, the most Leaver-y constituency in the country.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
The middle class in the South East largely voted Leave, didn't it?
Out of interest, what percentage of the 16 million plus Remain voters do you think have lived and worked abroad?
Comments
To me, Brexit is above all a project of the reactionary right of politics. Its core appeal is to identity not economics - hence its power.
Btw: can Jacob Rees-Mogg please ban pre-scripted on grounds of tautology?
‘Pound rebounds from 28 month low’
https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2019/jul/31/european-stock-markets-to-bounce-back-ahead-of-fed-rate-decision-business-live?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
I once thought quite highly of him. He has sunk into the deepest depths. He obviously used the frenzy to fuel his own preferment. Which stinks, frankly.
Re Boris, one thing I’ve noticed is the boost he gets from most photos. Whereas Theresa tended to look awkward, graceless and unhappy - if not downright weird - in all photographs, Boris is always pictured smiling, or being energetic and positive.
It’s shallow and subliminal, and it shouldn’t matter, but it does. I am pretty sure he gets a significant poll boost simply from his smiley, cheering demeanour.
Contrast also with the ageing and grumpy Corbyn.
There’s a very good example of the Boris Smiling Effect here
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/labour-total-wipeout-boris-johnson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
He’s striding along purposefully. He’s making a vigorous point. His companions are clearly amused.
My head says “Christ. This narcissist will ruin the country.” My subconscious says “no, he’s a good bloke. He’s likeable and funny. We’ll be fine.”
And sometimes the subconscious is more important, as any good politician knows.
Plus he said "nob", which is inherently funny.
Ah, YDoethur, immortality beckons !
To win the referendum, Leave had to get the votes of the poor.
Middle class remainers lost because they forgot how many poor people there are.
They are even planning to bring down the court system to stop paying a tv license they can perfectly well afford. How would that help law and order which they claim to care about?
Older people voted for Brexit for a wide range of reasons, but common to many is that the economic case was secondary to the emotional and political case.
Ok, where are we? I note your post from last night discussing the Noughties. Whilst valid it runs into the problem I described, which is we just end up considering longer and longer periods of time in greater and greater detail. So a quick summary is in order, as follows.
My position is this. "GBP has fallen. It has done so previously, both recently and in the distant past. This behaviour is undesirable and should be considered in light of its disadvantages. Moving out of Sterling in the long term may be advisable"
Your position is this. "GBP has fallen. It has done so previously, both recently and in the distant past. This behaviour is undramatic and should be considered in context of its advantages. Moving out of Sterling in the long term is unnecessary."
Having noted each others' posts, we can now move through the cycle quicker next time we or other discuss it, which will be within 6-12 months...
Immigration becomes ever more compelling.
Obama and Bill Clinton actually won and even Hillary won the popular vote
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland
Interesting to note that younger Ulsterfolk are significantly keener on staying in the UK than 35-55 year olds. These obituaries for the Union might be a bit premature...
I posted the comments from BBC on line this morning in good faith
You are challenging my integrity and I utterly reject I would make up BBC headlines
Because you cannot find it is not my problem
Indeed you owe me an apology
I do have a problem with those who have benefitted enormously through their life with free university education, opportunities to work and live abroad, generous final salary pensions, govt led asset boom boosted further by QE and govt subsidies, then wanting to take all of those opportunities, to study, to build up assets, to have a secure retirement, to be able to work and live abroad away from the next generations because of how they feel.
can you point out who they are, Id like to vote for them too ?
I have always supported policies to help the less well off, like a more generous safety net, better public services, more social housing, higher minimum wages and higher taxes on the better off to pay for it. Much more effective than scapegoating immigrants and trashing the economy.
Brexit will probably make me better off financially. So don't pretend that Remainers are all motivated by some kind of middle class self interest. I am anti Brexit because (a) I think it is a project designed to screw the poor and (b) I don't think liars should prosper.
It is hard to find somewhere there with GCSEs, let alone BAs and MAs from a "free university education."
It is hard to find someone who enjoyed "working and living abroad" (like so many of the Remainers). Many in Ebbw Vale will have never been abroad at all.
It is hard to find someone with any assets. They are the people that prominent Remainers on this board (Gardenwalker) sneeringly refer to as living in "Valleys dunghills".
The problems in our country have been building for many, many years.
The Referendum simply and finally and irrevocably brought the problems to the attention of the middle class in the South East, who have largely been immune from such matters.
How about Ambassador to the US for Farage with a special responsibility for the US/UK Trade Deal, and Cummings fired as the kicker? Is there a deal to be made there?
At a particularly tedious meeting this morning, I was musing on the notion we currently have FIVE ex-Prime Ministers still alive and seemingly all in rude health:
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
Theresa May
When was the last occasion in recent times there were as many as five ex Prime Ministers still alive?
Out of interest, what percentage of the 16 million plus Remain voters do you think have lived and worked abroad?
That grin is way weirder.
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1156386455637413888