Just a thought on nationalism for everyone to disagree with.
We all feel closer to people who are like us in one way or another. Maybe they are also British or Swiss or whatever. And sometimes this is genetic: if someone looks like us, then they might share DNA with us. But this closeness extends beyond genetics.
If a Catholic (of whatever skin colour or race) sees violence being meted out to a Catholic, they will instinctively hate the attacker and feel sympathy with the victim. One of their tribe has been attacked.
There are other bonds. Your football team is one, your friends at the pub, your chess club, your political persuasion, your employer, profession, or even being a PB-poster. (Or even for the truly perverse, there is the tribe of EUphilia that williamglenn and Jean-Claude Juncker are members of.)
We feel close to those with whom we can - in one way or another - identify with.
We are all members of multiple tribes. Some tribes stretch beyond national boundaries and therefore are seen as challenges to national identity and the nation state. I might mention Muslims in much of the Western world, or Jews in Eastern Europe prior to the Second World War.
It's OK and perfectly natural to have these competing loyalties.
The danger comes when one of these tribes is elevated above all the others, or when one is called to renounce all other loyalties. Fundamentalist religions are like this, as is extreme nationalism.
And here's the thing: extreme nationalism is not thinking that your country is better than others. It's thinking that the national bond is the only one that matters.
The Internet and globalisation have weakened the national bond, because they make it easier to be members of tribes that stretch beyond national borders. And the reaction to that is Trump and, I increasingly fear, Farage.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
I.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris can tempt him back. Boris could really do with his help and organisational skills.
Oh I agree, IDS can be very helpful to Boris.
Indeed he can. The crown for worst leader of the Conservative Party ever is already beyond Boris's grasp. Thanks IDS. Good for something.
IDS was not the wq (though he recovered to 272 MPs in February 2010).
That's a slightly unfair comparison. It was William Hague's poisoned chalice to be appointed in the immediate aftermath of Tony Blair's New Labour landslide. The tories had suffered their worst election result of the C20th.
It was a heady time in this country, one of liberation from the long Conservative social shackles. I don't think anyone would have done better. Not Margaret Thatcher. Not even Winston Churchill. And certainly not IDS. It was New Labour's zenith.
Maybe but IDS also faced Blair and got a higher average Tory voteshare than Hague.
IDS also won most votes in both the 2001 and 2002 local elections and most seats in the latter, Hague only won most votes in the 2000 local elections (excluding the 2001 county elections held at the same time as the general election)
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris can tempt him back. Boris could really do with his help and organisational skills.
I hope so.
Similarly I hope that Boris doesn't end up without Gove on his side, in the same way May and Osborne couldn't work together.
Working together Boris, Osborne and Gove could be a good team. Having them outside the tent pissing in will not be good.
There is a pitiful lack of talent in politics at the moment. If Boris is to have a government that works (unlike May) then he needs to make use of all that is available and get rid of at least some of the dead wood. Of course, as with every leader, he will need to balance the different sections of the party in the name of unity but there were so many boring no marks around May that need to be retired PDQ.
I am concerned that he might reward a well known arachnophile with Chancellor for running such an effective campaign. I fear that would be a mistake.
The arachnophile should be Chief Whip. It is the one job he seems to be good at.
Just a thought on nationalism for everyone to disagree with.
We all feel closer to people who are like us in one way or another. Maybe they are also British or Swiss or whatever. And sometimes this is genetic: if someone looks like us, then they might share DNA with us. But this closeness extends beyond genetics.
If a Catholic (of whatever skin colour or race) sees violence being meted out to a Catholic, they will instinctively hate the attacker and feel sympathy with the victim. One of their tribe has been attacked.
There are other bonds. Your football team is one, your friends at the pub, your chess club, your political persuasion, your employer, profession, or even being a PB-poster. (Or even for the truly perverse, there is the tribe of EUphilia that williamglenn and Jean-Claude Juncker are members of.)
We feel close to those with whom we can - in one way or another - identify with.
We are all members of multiple tribes. Some tribes stretch beyond national boundaries and therefore are seen as challenges to national identity and the nation state. I might mention Muslims in much of the Western world, or Jews in Eastern Europe prior to the Second World War.
It's OK and perfectly natural to have these competing loyalties.
The danger comes when one of these tribes is elevated above all the others, or when one is called to renounce all other loyalties. Fundamentalist religions are like this, as is extreme nationalism.
And here's the thing: extreme nationalism is not thinking that your country is better than others. It's thinking that the national bond is the only one that matters.
The Internet and globalisation have weakened the national bond, because they make it easier to be members of tribes that stretch beyond national borders. And the reaction to that is Trump and, I increasingly fear, Farage.
I’ve never heard from or met anyone else in the UK ever who’s ever had anything like the same level of EUphilia that williamglenn has.
Just a thought on nationalism for everyone to disagree with.
We all feel closer to people who are like us in one way or another. Maybe they are also British or Swiss or whatever. And sometimes this is genetic: if someone looks like us, then they might share DNA with us. But this closeness extends beyond genetics.
If a Catholic (of whatever skin colour or race) sees violence being meted out to a Catholic, they will instinctively hate the attacker and feel sympathy with the victim. One of their tribe has been attacked.
There are other bonds. Your football team is one, your friends at the pub, your chess club, your political persuasion, your employer, profession, or even being a PB-poster. (Or even for the truly perverse, there is the tribe of EUphilia that williamglenn and Jean-Claude Juncker are members of.)
We feel close to those with whom we can - in one way or another - identify with.
We are all members of multiple tribes. Some tribes stretch beyond national boundaries and therefore are seen as challenges to national identity and the nation state. I might mention Muslims in much of the Western world, or Jews in Eastern Europe prior to the Second World War.
It's OK and perfectly natural to have these competing loyalties.
The danger comes when one of these tribes is elevated above all the others, or when one is called to renounce all other loyalties. Fundamentalist religions are like this, as is extreme nationalism.
And here's the thing: extreme nationalism is not thinking that your country is better than others. It's thinking that the national bond is the only one that matters.
The Internet and globalisation have weakened the national bond, because they make it easier to be members of tribes that stretch beyond national borders. And the reaction to that is Trump and, I increasingly fear, Farage.
Good points. More of a counter-reaction. The exception to your first para is the antipathy you often get between neighbours: England/France, Netherlands/Germany, Hungary/Romania, etc.
Just a thought on nationalism for everyone to disagree with.
We all feel closer to people who are like us in one way or another. Maybe they are also British or Swiss or whatever. And sometimes this is genetic: if someone looks like us, then they might share DNA with us. But this closeness extends beyond genetics.
If a Catholic (of whatever skin colour or race) sees violence being meted out to a Catholic, they will instinctively hate the attacker and feel sympathy with the victim. One of their tribe has been attacked.
There are other bonds. Your football team is one, your friends at the pub, your chess club, your political persuasion, your employer, profession, or even being a PB-poster. (Or even for the truly perverse, there is the tribe of EUphilia that williamglenn and Jean-Claude Juncker are members of.)
We feel close to those with whom we can - in one way or another - identify with.
We are all members of multiple tribes. Some tribes stretch beyond national boundaries and therefore are seen as challenges to national identity and the nation state. I might mention Muslims in much of the Western world, or Jews in Eastern Europe prior to the Second World War.
It's OK and perfectly natural to have these competing loyalties.
The danger comes when one of these tribes is elevated above all the others, or when one is called to renounce all other loyalties. Fundamentalist religions are like this, as is extreme nationalism.
And here's the thing: extreme nationalism is not thinking that your country is better than others. It's thinking that the national bond is the only one that matters.
The Internet and globalisation have weakened the national bond, because they make it easier to be members of tribes that stretch beyond national borders. And the reaction to that is Trump and, I increasingly fear, Farage.
Stephen Ward was found guilty of living off immoral earnings (money obtained from Rice-Davies and Keeler among others) – the trial having been instigated after the embarrassment caused to the government.
While giving evidence at Ward's trial, Rice-Davies made a famous riposte. When James Burge, the defence counsel, pointed out that Lord Astor denied an affair or having even met her, she dismissed the denial by stating, "Well (giggle) he would, wouldn’t he?"[9] (often misquoted "Well he would say that, wouldn't he?").[10] By 1979, this phrase had entered the third edition of the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, and is occasionally abbreviated as MRDA ("Mandy Rice-Davies applies").
I’m not sure it does apply. The motive for leaking to a journalist that your numbers are good two-thirds of the way through voting could be driven by a number of motives.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris lls.
Oh I agree, IDS can be very helpful to Boris.
Indeed he can. The crown for worst leader of the Conservative Party ever is already beyond Boris's grasp. Thanks IDS. Good for something.
IDS was not the worst Tory leader
Hague has many qualities and is a brilliant orator but leadership was not one of them.
IDS hadn’t so many qualities and wasn’t a brilliant orator and leadership was not one of them either.
Balfour sets the bar for Boris.
The Tories led more polls under IDS and had a higher average poll rating than under Hague, this was not a question about who was the best orator but who was the best Tory leader and IDS was better than Hague
When IDS was leader Blair was lying through his teeth to get us to join an illegal war with no thought about what might happen next. IDS was of course cheering him on but to say that IDS's polling was directly comparable to Hague's period in charge is just silly. The man is just an idiot and should never have been anywhere near the leadership.
The Tories had more councillors and polled higher under IDS than Hague, those are the facts. I like Hague but he was worse than IDS as Tory leader
Despite HY’s polling ‘evidence’, they know the Tories are f***** North of the Border with Boris.
With the Brexit Party now neck and neck with the Tories for second in Scotland, not true, Boris wins back Brexit Party voters in Scotland as much as England and Wales
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris lls.
Oh I agree, IDS can be very helpful to Boris.
Indeed he can. The crown for worst leader of the Conservative Party ever is already beyond Boris's grasp. Thanks IDS. Good for something.
IDS was not the worst Tory leader
Hague has many qualities and is a brilliant orator but leadership was not one of them.
IDS hadn’t so many qualities and wasn’t a brilliant orator and leadership was not one of them either.
Balfour sets the bar for Boris.
The Tories led more polls under IDS and had a higher average poll rating than under Hague, this was not a question about who was the best orator but who was the best Tory leader and IDS was better than Hague
When IDS was leader Blair was lying through his teeth to get us to join an illegal war with no thought about what might happen next. IDS was of course cheering him on but to say that IDS's polling was directly comparable to Hague's period in charge is just silly. The man is just an idiot and should never have been anywhere near the leadership.
The Tories had more councillors and polled higher under IDS than Hague, those are the facts. I like Hague but he was worse than IDS as Tory leader
Simply a matter of timing; the low point for the Tories was when they were turfed out of office in 1997. So the local elections in that cycle would obviously be the worst.
Put a fiver on Gove, the tweet about getting half of Javids support looks like a straw in the wind and require an army of tactical anti Hunt voting by camp Boris to stop. Can it be done ? Sure, but not likely I think.
If it's Hunt it will be obvious that it's been rigged.
Just a thought on nationalism for everyone to disagree with.
We all feel closer to people who are like us in one way or another. Maybe they are also British or Swiss or whatever. And sometimes this is genetic: if someone looks like us, then they might share DNA with us. But this closeness extends beyond genetics.
If a Catholic (of whatever skin colour or race) sees violence being meted out to a Catholic, they will instinctively hate the attacker and feel sympathy with the victim. One of their tribe has been attacked.
There are other bonds. Your football team is one, your friends at the pub, your chess club, your political persuasion, your employer, profession, or even being a PB-poster. (Or even for the truly perverse, there is the tribe of EUphilia that williamglenn and Jean-Claude Juncker are members of.)
We feel close to those with whom we can - in one way or another - identify with.
We are all members of multiple tribes. Some tribes stretch beyond national boundaries and therefore are seen as challenges to national identity and the nation state. I might mention Muslims in much of the Western world, or Jews in Eastern Europe prior to the Second World War.
It's OK and perfectly natural to have these competing loyalties.
The danger comes when one of these tribes is elevated above all the others, or when one is called to renounce all other loyalties. Fundamentalist religions are like this, as is extreme nationalism.
And here's the thing: extreme nationalism is not thinking that your country is better than others. It's thinking that the national bond is the only one that matters.
The Internet and globalisation have weakened the national bond, because they make it easier to be members of tribes that stretch beyond national borders. And the reaction to that is Trump and, I increasingly fear, Farage.
I agree. We have many competing loyalties, but when I see strident nationalists like Farage or Yaxley-Lennon, I see them as not like me. They actively repel me.
Put a fiver on Gove, the tweet about getting half of Javids support looks like a straw in the wind and require an army of tactical anti Hunt voting by camp Boris to stop. Can it be done ? Sure, but not likely I think.
If it's Hunt it will be obvious that it's been rigged.
Does Johnson care about that? I don't know.
No bet is therefore my deeply unexciting call.
Yes it's essentially a small bet on Boris not rigging the ballot enough !
Sky News are currently showing the longest advert break I've ever seen. I assume it's because they know they might not be able to show any adverts around 6pm, so they're making up for it in advance.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris lls.
Oh I agree, IDS can be very helpful to Boris.
IDS was not the worst Tory leader
Hague has many qualities and is a brilliant orator but leadership was not one of them.
IDS hadn’t so many qualities and wasn’t a brilliant orator and leadership was not one of them either.
Balfour sets the bar for Boris.
Te
When IDS was leader Blair was lying through his teeth to get us to join an illegal war with no thought about what might happen next. IDS was of course cheering him on but to say that IDS's polling was directly comparable to Hague's period in charge is just silly. The man is just an idiot and should never have been anywhere near the leadership.
The Tories had more councillors and polled higher under IDS than Hague, those are the facts. I like Hague but he was worse than IDS as Tory leader
Yes but it's just wrong to compare 1997 with 2001 and use it as 'fact.' The circumstances were different. 1997-2001 was the absolute zenith of New Labour. I remember it well: a time when the country breathed a collective sigh of relief after the god-awful 1992-7 Gov't of sleaze and hypocrisy.
Hague wasn't sowing the seeds. He wasn't even ploughing the field. He was taking away the stones.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Re what rcs1000 posted, I'd be really sad if this place becomes like Guido Fawkes' comment section. It's a broad church on here but we need to be civil.
Spot on. Some of the recent posts and interactions have been unnecessary
Despite HY’s polling ‘evidence’, they know the Tories are f***** North of the Border with Boris.
With the Brexit Party now neck and neck with the Tories for second in Scotland, not true, Boris wins back Brexit Party voters in Scotland as much as England and Wales
You are putting far, far too much weight on one little YouGov poll and its sub-samples.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
If true, it will be seismic. If B&R falls tomorrow then this will arithmetically spell the end of the Cons-DUP working majority and take us properly into a minority government.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
If true, it will be seismic. If B&R falls tomorrow then this will arithmetically spell the end of the Cons-DUP working majority and take us properly into a minority government.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris can tempt him back. Boris could really do with his help and organisational skills.
I hope so.
Similarly I hope that Boris doesn't end up without Gove on his side, in the same way May and Osborne couldn't work together.
Working together Boris, Osborne and Gove could be a good team. Having them outside the tent pissing in will not be good.
There is a pitiful lack of talent in politics at the moment. If Boris is to have a government that works (unlike May) then he needs to make use of all that is available and get rid of at least some of the dead wood. Of course, as with every leader, he will need to balance the different sections of the party in the name of unity but there were so many boring no marks around May that need to be retired PDQ.
I am concerned that he might reward a well known arachnophile with Chancellor for running such an effective campaign. I fear that would be a mistake.
The arachnophile should be Chief Whip. It is the one job he seems to be good at.
Grayling should be retired.
Not just Grayling but Hammond, Lidington, Fox, Barclay, Bradley, so much dross.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
If true, it will be seismic. If B&R falls tomorrow then this will arithmetically spell the end of the Cons-DUP working majority and take us properly into a minority government.
Despite HY’s polling ‘evidence’, they know the Tories are f***** North of the Border with Boris.
With the Brexit Party now neck and neck with the Tories for second in Scotland, not true, Boris wins back Brexit Party voters in Scotland as much as England and Wales
You are putting far, far too much weight on one little YouGov poll and its sub-samples.
Thank you. This cannot be repeated too many times.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris lls.
Oh I agree, IDS can be very helpful to Boris.
IDS was not the worst Tory leader
Hague has many qualities and is a brilliant orator but leadership was not one of them.
IDS hadn’t so many qualities and wasn’t a brilliant orator and leadership was not one of them either.
Balfour sets the bar for Boris.
Te
When IDS was leader Blair was lying through his teeth to get us to join an illegal war with no thought about what might happen next. IDS was of course cheering him on but to say that IDS's polling was directly comparable to Hague's period in charge is just silly. The man is just an idiot and should never have been anywhere near the leadership.
The Tories had more councillors and polled higher under IDS than Hague, those are the facts. I like Hague but he was worse than IDS as Tory leader
Yes but it's just wrong to compare 1997 with 2001 and use it as 'fact.' The circumstances were different. 1997-2001 was the absolute zenith of New Labour. I remember it well: a time when the country breathed a collective sigh of relief after the god-awful 1992-7 Gov't of sleaze and hypocrisy.
Hague wasn't sowing the seeds. He wasn't even ploughing the field. He was taking away the stones.
The trouble with many of his posts is that HY simply seizes on some figure or other and doesn’t apply any judgement or thought.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris lls.
Oh I agree, IDS can be very helpful to Boris.
IDS was not the worst Tory leader
Hague has many qualities and is a brilliant orator but leadership was not one of them.
IDS hadn’t so many qualities and wasn’t a brilliant orator and leadership was not one of them either.
Balfour sets the bar for Boris.
Te
When IDS was leader Blair was lying through his teeth to get us to join an illegal war with no thought about what might happen next. IDS was of course cheering him on but to say that IDS's polling was directly comparable to Hague's period in charge is just silly. The man is just an idiot and should never have been anywhere near the leadership.
The Tories had more councillors and polled higher under IDS than Hague, those are the facts. I like Hague but he was worse than IDS as Tory leader
Yes but it's just wrong to compare 1997 with 2001 and use it as 'fact.' The circumstances were different. 1997-2001 was the absolute zenith of New Labour. I remember it well: a time when the country breathed a collective sigh of relief after the god-awful 1992-7 Gov't of sleaze and hypocrisy.
Hague wasn't sowing the seeds. He wasn't even ploughing the field. He was taking away the stones.
He was prevented from getting to the field where the stones were by 1000 miles of New Labour razor wire and machine gun emplacements. I do not exaggerate (much). So that to say he lost v Blair but Major won v Kinnock, and that says anything about their relative merits, is idiocy.
The paradox of tolerance says we need to discriminate against. You cannot tolerate views that would remove people's ability to participate in society. Because those views only need to succeed once and society is destroyed.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Greening would be a very good call to hold Putney as a LD. Lee would be unlikely to hold Bracknell.
I could see Grieve and Lee quitting as they have already faced deselection threats
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.
I wonder if Boris can tempt him back. Boris could really do with his help and organisational skills.
I hope so.
Similarly I hope that Boris doesn't end up without Gove on his side, in the same way May and Osborne couldn't work together.
Working together Boris, Osborne and Gove could be a good team. Having them outside the tent pissing in will not be good.
There is a pitiful lack of talent in politics at the moment. If Boris is to have a government that works (unlike May) then he needs to make use of all that is available and get rid of at least some of the dead wood. Of course, as with every leader, he will need to balance the different sections of the party in the name of unity but there were so many boring no marks around May that need to be retired PDQ.
I am concerned that he might reward a well known arachnophile with Chancellor for running such an effective campaign. I fear that would be a mistake.
The arachnophile should be Chief Whip. It is the one job he seems to be good at.
Grayling should be retired.
Not just Grayling but Hammond, Lidington, Fox, Barclay, Bradley, so much dross.
Agreed with 100% of those names.
What is remarkable is just how much of an inflated ego many of those, especially Hammond, have of themselves.
Despite HY’s polling ‘evidence’, they know the Tories are f***** North of the Border with Boris.
With the Brexit Party now neck and neck with the Tories for second in Scotland, not true, Boris wins back Brexit Party voters in Scotland as much as England and Wales
I’ll add this to my list of your predictions and we’ll both have to wait and see.
Oh, looks more like they have equalised. Who ever gets to the last 2 collapses to @10. I think I will let it ride and fingers crossed for Gove to squeak it.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Greening would be a very good call to hold Putney as a LD. Lee would be unlikely to hold Bracknell.
I could see Grieve and Lee quitting as they have already faced deselection threats
The LibDems did make second, if distant, in Bracknell in 2010. And you could argue it’s Chelmsford dropped West of London.
Dear Lord we your humble and miserable servants of PB do beseech you to consider the thread writers of this site and pray that you place a pair of wicked sinners - Boris Johnson and Michael Gove into the cauldron of the Conservative party leadership.
Let them sacrifice and eat babies in your name and ensure that in doing so the meek and mild of PB earn many pieces of silver.
Oh, looks more like they have equalised. Who ever gets to the last 2 collapses to @10. I think I will let it ride and fingers crossed for Gove to squeak it.
More adrenaline, more fun and only a few quid in it.
Despite HY’s polling ‘evidence’, they know the Tories are f***** North of the Border with Boris.
With the Brexit Party now neck and neck with the Tories for second in Scotland, not true, Boris wins back Brexit Party voters in Scotland as much as England and Wales
You are putting far, far too much weight on one little YouGov poll and its sub-samples.
Didn't you spend yrs adding up subsamples to try and prove your SNP viewpoint?
Oh, looks more like they have equalised. Who ever gets to the last 2 collapses to @10. I think I will let it ride and fingers crossed for Gove to squeak it.
More adrenaline, more fun and only a few quid in it.
So why not?
Yes, when as expert and skilled bettors like us are green across all the candidates why not add a little extra frisson to the results.
Incidentally if every remaining candidate was to be abducted by aliens and, like, Philip Hammond became Conservative leader that would be my best result.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Greening would be a very good call to hold Putney as a LD. Lee would be unlikely to hold Bracknell.
I could see Grieve and Lee quitting as they have already faced deselection threats
The LibDems did make second, if distant, in Bracknell in 2010. And you could argue it’s Chelmsford dropped West of London.
Bracknell would be a big ask it would need lib dems from wokingham, yatley, maidenhead and elsewhere to get any where. The last decent show by us was 1995 which is a bloody long time ago.
A lot of people just don't like Gove. Even many Tories. Not that Boris does not have his haters, but for whatever reason there are those who generally like him, or give him a pass at least. Gove does not have that skill.
But he would be a more interesting challenge for Boris than Blandy McBlanderson.
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Greening would be a very good call to hold Putney as a LD. Lee would be unlikely to hold Bracknell.
I could see Grieve and Lee quitting as they have already faced deselection threats
The LibDems did make second, if distant, in Bracknell in 2010. And you could argue it’s Chelmsford dropped West of London.
I don't know Chelmsford but I would have though it was a bit more upmarket than Bracknell.
The LDs have never tended to do that well in the new towns, which have mainly been Con-Lab fights. Bracknell is more Brexity than Chelmsford.
Greening would be a very good call to hold Putney as a LD. Lee would be unlikely to hold Bracknell.
Justine has been notably visible on the campaign trail in Furzedown for the by election today. For our candidate, obviously.
Would she really be doing that if about to defect? One of the early warning signs before Carswell defected was his absence from a couple of local campaigns.
A lot of people just don't like Gove. Even many Tories. Not that Boris does not have his haters, but for whatever reason there are those who generally like him, or give him a pass at least. Gove does not have that skill.
But he would be a more interesting challenge for Boris than Blandy McBlanderson.
The membership hasn’t forgiven Gove for knifing Boris in the back in 2016
A lot of people just don't like Gove. Even many Tories. Not that Boris does not have his haters, but for whatever reason there are those who generally like him, or give him a pass at least. Gove does not have that skill.
But he would be a more interesting challenge for Boris than Blandy McBlanderson.
The membership hasn’t forgiven Gove for knifing Boris in the back in 2016
They might do better to apply their minds to Gove’s substantive criticisms.
Dear Lord we your humble and miserable servants of PB do beseech you to consider the thread writers of this site and pray that you place a pair of wicked sinners - Boris Johnson and Michael Gove into the cauldron of the Conservative party leadership.
Let them sacrifice and eat babies in your name and ensure that in doing so the meek and mild of PB earn many pieces of silver.
Amen.
'that' brian spanner tweet with them post brexit vote will surely be a thread header multiple times in the weeks ahead if so!
I presume the two spoilt ballot papers were Stewart backers.
Maybe Stewart was one himself.
He's denied it. Wouldn't surprise me if Ken was one.
I don't think it'd be Ken. Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Philip Lee.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Greening would be a very good call to hold Putney as a LD. Lee would be unlikely to hold Bracknell.
I could see Grieve and Lee quitting as they have already faced deselection threats
The LibDems did make second, if distant, in Bracknell in 2010. And you could argue it’s Chelmsford dropped West of London.
I don't know Chelmsford but I would have though it was a bit more upmarket than Bracknell.
The LDs have never tended to do that well in the new towns, which have mainly been Con-Lab fights. Bracknell is more Brexity than Chelmsford.
Dear Lord we your humble and miserable servants of PB do beseech you to consider the thread writers of this site and pray that you place a pair of wicked sinners - Boris Johnson and Michael Gove into the cauldron of the Conservative party leadership.
Let them sacrifice and eat babies in your name and ensure that in doing so the meek and mild of PB earn many pieces of silver.
Amen.
'that' brian spanner tweet with them post brexit vote will surely be a thread header multiple times in the weeks ahead if so!
Wonderful character assassination of Johnson on radio 4. "What are the Tory Party thinking about!" says Max Hastings "You wouldn't trust him with your wallet or your wife" says Hesseltine. They loathe him! I'd put your money on Gove. He wont survive a month of that
A lot of people just don't like Gove. Even many Tories. Not that Boris does not have his haters, but for whatever reason there are those who generally like him, or give him a pass at least. Gove does not have that skill.
But he would be a more interesting challenge for Boris than Blandy McBlanderson.
The membership hasn’t forgiven Gove for knifing Boris in the back in 2016
I've never understood that. If Boris could not handle Gove standing, to the point he did not even bother, it speaks ill of his leadership qualities. It's the same reason the whinges from Corbynites about his internal opponents meant little, since it was his job to overcome those opponents. Which, to be fair, he has.
Comments
We all feel closer to people who are like us in one way or another. Maybe they are also British or Swiss or whatever. And sometimes this is genetic: if someone looks like us, then they might share DNA with us. But this closeness extends beyond genetics.
If a Catholic (of whatever skin colour or race) sees violence being meted out to a Catholic, they will instinctively hate the attacker and feel sympathy with the victim. One of their tribe has been attacked.
There are other bonds. Your football team is one, your friends at the pub, your chess club, your political persuasion, your employer, profession, or even being a PB-poster. (Or even for the truly perverse, there is the tribe of EUphilia that williamglenn and Jean-Claude Juncker are members of.)
We feel close to those with whom we can - in one way or another - identify with.
We are all members of multiple tribes. Some tribes stretch beyond national boundaries and therefore are seen as challenges to national identity and the nation state. I might mention Muslims in much of the Western world, or Jews in Eastern Europe prior to the Second World War.
It's OK and perfectly natural to have these competing loyalties.
The danger comes when one of these tribes is elevated above all the others, or when one is called to renounce all other loyalties. Fundamentalist religions are like this, as is extreme nationalism.
And here's the thing: extreme nationalism is not thinking that your country is better than others. It's thinking that the national bond is the only one that matters.
The Internet and globalisation have weakened the national bond, because they make it easier to be members of tribes that stretch beyond national borders. And the reaction to that is Trump and, I increasingly fear, Farage.
It's a pretty rum choice if you're a remainer.
But there are some opinions which if widely held would destroy that society.
Therefore these opinions should be discriminated against.
My two cents worth.
IDS also won most votes in both the 2001 and 2002 local elections and most seats in the latter, Hague only won most votes in the 2000 local elections (excluding the 2001 county elections held at the same time as the general election)
Grieve and Greening would be my bet
Grayling should be retired.
I think even Ted Heath would baulk.
She’s lost it.
And I actually know that.
Gove is helped by the fact he is a Scot of course
https://order-order.com/2019/06/20/labour-promote-former-mp-accused-jewish-community-blairite-plotters/
Note another one reinstated quietly
You really are a clueless wonder.
And it’s true that some of the insults were quite ham fisted.
Does Johnson care about that? I don't know.
No bet is therefore my deeply unexciting call.
It should only be allowed in the MP in question has a very, very good reason - like needing to be abroad because they're PM at a meeting.
Not because its Thursday and they want to go home for the weekend already.
Hague wasn't sowing the seeds. He wasn't even ploughing the field. He was taking away the stones.
My guess is that Lee and Greening are intending to leave when Boris gets chosen (or possibly and more dramatically a little earlier) and left their papers blank. I doubt any MP would take the risk of adding graffiti to a ballot paper, for risk of being found out.
Remember Heidi seemed convinced there is a bunch of Tories ready to jump
Chaos for Boris.
I’ve been impressed with them this tournament.
They walk on water, and can cure scrofula.
I could see Grieve and Lee quitting as they have already faced deselection threats
The only disappointing this world cup has been South Africa, they've been so poor I cannot call them chokers.
What is remarkable is just how much of an inflated ego many of those, especially Hammond, have of themselves.
Boris might have been too clever in playing off the ultra hard Brexiteers via Raab.
They might now want to hold his feet to the fire as best they can via Gove, who will at least expose bullshit.
For example - take 2 minority opinions:
- that women should not be allowed to drive.
- that the NHS should be privatized.
These 2 sentiments ought not to be treated equally when it comes to platforming.
The 1st one should be discriminated against.
Worst case I lose £15 profit on Boris. If I’m right I can lay off some Gove at between 10/1 and 14/1 and then put back about £30-40 on Boris.
Dear Lord we your humble and miserable servants of PB do beseech you to consider the thread writers of this site and pray that you place a pair of wicked sinners - Boris Johnson and Michael Gove into the cauldron of the Conservative party leadership.
Let them sacrifice and eat babies in your name and ensure that in doing so the meek and mild of PB earn many pieces of silver.
Amen.
So why not?
Incidentally if every remaining candidate was to be abducted by aliens and, like, Philip Hammond became Conservative leader that would be my best result.
(Sky)
That has to be the greatest
But he would be a more interesting challenge for Boris than Blandy McBlanderson.
I'm still a little disappointed we didn't go into an election with parties led by Gordon and Ming.
The LDs have never tended to do that well in the new towns, which have mainly been Con-Lab fights. Bracknell is more Brexity than Chelmsford.
Would she really be doing that if about to defect? One of the early warning signs before Carswell defected was his absence from a couple of local campaigns.