I think the concept of English nationalism is consistent of course. But it is a crazy position to take. IMO.
And as @RochdalePioneers has asked, where do you, literally, draw the line for England given its association with its neighbours over the past few centuries?
But the good news is that you prove the concept as you are the very definition of the Little Englander that Cameron said was a typical Leave voter.
Is Scottish nationalism crazy? Or is only English nationalism crazy?
I draw the line for England at its current boundaries.
Well yes the logic that drives me to independence in both votes is consistently the same. To me it only logical. If I was a unionist who believed large unions were better than I would back Remain and No on independence.
What strikes me as completely illogical is the people who ardently support one union while opposing the other. EG Tory unionists who want to leave the EU . . . or SNP nationalists who want independence but to stay in the EU. The two positions contradict each other.
I didn't say English nationalism is crazy, I said I thought it was crazy. It is a perfectly understandable position to take. If crazy.
Andrew Neil is absolutely must watch. Mordaunt latest/current casualty.
"Your party has gone bonkers; it thinks Brexit is more important than the Union."
Since Andrew Neil has for a long time been a fervent Leave advocate, if he has suddenly found his own cherished belief system under attack from the beast that he has fed, he should take a long hard look in the mirror as to how that might have come to pass.
Nah. He is a good journalist. If I asked you, for your day job, to skewer a Remainer you would have no problem in doing so and in picking holes in the Remain argument.
I have often thought that it would be fun, here on PB, to have a day when everyone argues the reverse of what they believe.
I am pretty sure Andrew Neil prioritises the Union over Brexit, so I don't think this interview challenges his beliefs.
The issue I have with Neil is that his blatant biases get in the way of his interviews, to the opposite effect to what might be expected. He doesn't engage with people he agrees with, which means their arguments don't get tested. He challenges those he doesn't agree with, but if you stand your ground and argue from first principles you can get a good hearing.
He is by all accounts a Brexiter.
If you read The Bad Boys Of Brexit there is a bit where Neil arranges for Banks to meet a group of people who might give him funds. There is no "if" about it.
Neil has problems. There have been two occasions in the past two years where he has adopted positions that were risible (only UK can make Airbus wings, and the German federal election inconclusive result was the worst constitutional vcrisis since ww2). In both cases he was backed up by sources, but the positions did not withstand inspection. He's smart, but I think he's Wikipedia Metropolitan Elite smart: he repeats positions backed by logic and sources but never stops to check for plausibility or to say "hold on, this is bollocks".
Glanced in for the latest thinking on the election, and find umpteen posts debating the personal merits of Philip Thompson and anonymous poster Viceroy. Suggestion: let them be whatever they like and let's concentrate on what's happening to our country?
I’ve suggested that a couple of times but it’s difficult not to react to some of the outpourings. You find you’ve responded before your ember you where going to resist.
Nah - it's the height of arrogance to float in, opine what we should all be talking about, and then drift off again.
Bloody hell. What sort of risk assessment was that the answer to?
Standard NaCTSO drills. I would imagine more relevant in a Jewish school.
So is this more widespread? None of my kids have ever been asked to do such a thing, even immediately after Dunblane.
Anecdotally, a friend of mine is a teacher at a private school (not a particularly famous one). A couple of years back she complained she was having to give up a Saturday to go into school to undergo training in what to do if there was an attack.
One bit, oddly, was learning how to open the secure windows from the inside to allow them to open enough for people to get out. Something they didn't want the children knowing!
I hadn't heard of these sorts of drills, though.
You should ask your childrens' school or your workplace about them; there will be someone at those institutions who is the coordinator. The NaCTSO website is a great resource. They run frequent workshops and so forth.
A question that I might have to be careful asking lest it be interpreted as: "Excuse me, if someone was to attack this school, how do you think they would do it? I'm asking for a friend ..."
Andrew Neil is absolutely must watch. Mordaunt latest/current casualty.
"Your party has gone bonkers; it thinks Brexit is more important than the Union."
Brexit is more important than the union.
You really are batshit crazy.
"We need Brexit so that the United Kingdom can be Sovereign" went the argument. And now? Bollocks to the Union.
Brexit ends the United Kingdom as a physical entity. Brexit cripples the economy. Brexit destroys the Tory party. And is still cheered on by Tories who insist we need it because the alternative is worse.
What pray tell is this worse alternative if we stay in the EU? A Plague of Locusts? A Manhattan sized asteroid crashing into Milton Keynes? War with France and mandatory snail soup after we lose?
I want my country to be sovereign. I am English.
I want Brexit so that my country can be sovereign. I want English (or Scottish) independence so my country can be sovereign.
Fully consistent.
You want Brexit so which country can be sovereign - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? But you disavow the Union - so you don't care about the sovereignty of your country as you want to dismantle your country.
What specifically do you want to have sovereignty for? "England" has been an ever-evolving place as you know. When you seek nationhood for England do you include or exclude Wales? If its exclude then we're talking about pre-1535 England. In which case I assume you lay claim to Calais? Or perhaps gp further back and demand fealty of other parts of modern day France.
Tell you what. If you represent English Nationalism, I'll start a campaign to resurrect the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Strathclyde
In an ideal world I would want English independence using England as defined today. I would like to see Wales and Scotland as friendly neighbours.
But if the Welsh and Scots don't want independence I don't mind them tagging along with us that much.
As I said before, you are definitely not a Conservative
I am struggling to see what party would want him. Maybe he could squat in the BXP so long as they don’t have any other policies?
As I said before, you are definitely not a Conservative
I'm a liberal Conservative.
I am not a soft-C conservative. And as my membership lapsed under illiberal May I am not a member, though I was for well over a decade before she became PM, I am no longer a capital-C Conservative.
I was at Party Conference as a Party Member in 2015 when May gave one of the most disgusting speeches I have ever had the discomfort to sit through. It was BNP redux. I have had no respect for her ever since, I opposed her leadership bid because of that and when she won the leadership I decided I was not renewing my membership.
Andrew Neil is absolutely must watch. Mordaunt latest/current casualty.
"Your party has gone bonkers; it thinks Brexit is more important than the Union."
Brexit is more important than the union.
You really are batshit crazy.
"We need Brexit so that the United Kingdom can be Sovereign" went the argument. And now? Bollocks to the Union.
Brexit ends the United Kingdom as a physical entity. Brexit cripples the economy. Brexit destroys the Tory party. And is still cheered on by Tories who insist we need it because the alternative is worse.
What pray tell is this worse alternative if we stay in the EU? A Plague of Locusts? A Manhattan sized asteroid crashing into Milton Keynes? War with France and mandatory snail soup after we lose?
He's not a Tory. He is some kind of English nationalist. Def not a Tory.
Perhaps. yet those views are clearly widespread in the party. Brexit is worth more than the Union, the economy, the party. If you are batshit crazy. Thank goodness these people don't have anything politically important to for the next month or so
If @Philip_Thompson is a member of the Conservative Party he will I'm sure shortly do the honourable thing and resign once he has read what it is there for and why.
The membership of the Conservative and Unionist Party has been taken over. UKIPites/Faragists/BXP/fascist, call them what you like, but they ain't Conservatives in the true sense. It is like a scene from Star Trek where the Borg take over a planet
I have backed the Tories on and off my entire adult lifetime. Though I've voted for multiple parties every time I voted for another it was with regret. But I've never been Borg. I have a selection of views I know are a minority within the party.
I am an atheist, liberal republican. I believe in a small state and the power of individualism.
Hi Philip. Your last sentence describes me very well, yet our views from our posts do not coincide at all . Not sure if one of us is horribly wrong or that description can describe a very broad church of people.
Bloody hell. What sort of risk assessment was that the answer to?
Standard NaCTSO drills. I would imagine more relevant in a Jewish school.
So is this more widespread? None of my kids have ever been asked to do such a thing, even immediately after Dunblane.
Anecdotally, a friend of mine is a teacher at a private school (not a particularly famous one). A couple of years back she complained she was having to give up a Saturday to go into school to undergo training in what to do if there was an attack.
One bit, oddly, was learning how to open the secure windows from the inside to allow them to open enough for people to get out. Something they didn't want the children knowing!
I hadn't heard of these sorts of drills, though.
You should ask your childrens' school or your workplace about them; there will be someone at those institutions who is the coordinator. The NaCTSO website is a great resource. They run frequent workshops and so forth.
A question that I might have to be careful asking lest it be interpreted as: "Excuse me, if someone was to attack this school, how do you think they would do it? I'm asking for a friend ..."
Ask them about NaCTSO I would be amazed, and distressed, if they did not know; it should be part of their security policy and critical incident plan. If they have not put anything together then you must push them to do so.
Andrew Neil is absolutely must watch. Mordaunt latest/current casualty.
"Your party has gone bonkers; it thinks Brexit is more important than the Union."
Brexit is more important than the union.
You really are batshit crazy.
"We need Brexit so that the United Kingdom can be Sovereign" went the argument. And now? Bollocks to the Union.
Brexit ends the United Kingdom as a physical entity. Brexit cripples the economy. Brexit destroys the Tory party. And is still cheered on by Tories who insist we need it because the alternative is worse.
What pray tell is this worse alternative if we stay in the EU? A Plague of Locusts? A Manhattan sized asteroid crashing into Milton Keynes? War with France and mandatory snail soup after we lose?
I want my country to be sovereign. I am English.
I want Brexit so that my country can be sovereign. I want English (or Scottish) independence so my country can be sovereign.
Fully consistent.
Teenage masturbatory fantasies really have changed.
My kids are older now, only 1 left at school, but I've never heard of such a thing. I hesitate to say it doesn't happen in Scotland but I've never heard of it.
Sadly, I can see why Jewish (and Muslim for that matter) dominated schools might think it necessary.
It stems from the "run, hide, tell" ("run, hide, fight" in the US) strategy. There are different drills for institutions such as schools for obvious reasons.
As I say this doesn't mention such drills but I accept that they could come from the guidance. I have just not heard of it doing so in Scotland. Has anyone else on the site come across this?
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
Is there a spread market on how many days BoZo will spend as PM?
What are the current odds on a GE this year? I just bet a pal a tenner that there will be (it's the only kind of betting I ever do). Who got the best odds, him or me?
English nationalism puzzles me. The UK is about as complex a state construct as its possible to get, a composite of two old Kingdoms, quarter of a third Kingdon plus a principality which claims to be a country equal to the other two which legally was annexed by one of them.
If we discard all of this we get to England. Who was unified after one Norse king lost to another invading Norse king who had already taken Normandy. We the had that long spell where great English heroes like Richard the Lionheart spent almost no time here and didn't speak English, where our language is a fantastic hodgepodge of everyone else's languages, and where our patron Saint has nob all to do with us and our flag was nicked from an Italian city state.
English Nationalism seems entertaining when I've heard it demand pure anglo-saxon bloodlines (err thats TWO bloodlines so not pure and both german...). My brother in laws as younger men seemed enamoured with such nonsense - I asked them whether they planned to repatriate themselves back to either Ireland or Spain as neither parent was English. At whhich point they seemed to grasp the stupidity of the whole exercise.
Mind you, the best kind of nationalism are the morons who move to somewhere like Spain, don't integrate, don't learn the language, seem hostile to the natives of the country they have moved to and yet bang on endlessly about "bloody foreigners" back home who apparently don't integrate or learn the language.
Andrew Neil is absolutely must watch. Mordaunt latest/current casualty.
"Your party has gone bonkers; it thinks Brexit is more important than the Union."
Brexit is more important than the union.
You really are batshit crazy.
"We need Brexit so that the United Kingdom can be Sovereign" went the argument. And now? Bollocks to the Union.
Brexit ends the United Kingdom as a physical entity. Brexit cripples the economy. Brexit destroys the Tory party. And is still cheered on by Tories who insist we need it because the alternative is worse.
What pray tell is this worse alternative if we stay in the EU? A Plague of Locusts? A Manhattan sized asteroid crashing into Milton Keynes? War with France and mandatory snail soup after we lose?
I want my country to be sovereign. I am English.
I want Brexit so that my country can be sovereign. I want English (or Scottish) independence so my country can be sovereign.
Fully consistent.
You want Brexit so which country can be sovereign - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? But you disavow the Union - so you don't care about the sovereignty of your country as you want to dismantle your country.
What specifically do you want to have sovereignty for? "England" has been an ever-evolving place as you know. When you seek nationhood for England do you include or exclude Wales? If its exclude then we're talking about pre-1535 England. In which case I assume you lay claim to Calais? Or perhaps gp further back and demand fealty of other parts of modern day France.
Tell you what. If you represent English Nationalism, I'll start a campaign to resurrect the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Strathclyde
In an ideal world I would want English independence using England as defined today. I would like to see Wales and Scotland as friendly neighbours.
But if the Welsh and Scots don't want independence I don't mind them tagging along with us that much.
As I said before, you are definitely not a Conservative
I am struggling to see what party would want him. Maybe he could squat in the BXP so long as they don’t have any other policies?
I think he is like a right wing version of Jeremy Corbyn. Enjoys being a contrarian because he thinks it looks clever when, of course, it looks rather the reverse.
All those Team Boris that are going to lend their votes to Hunt...or if you believe Sky conspiracy theory, the whips are going to rig it to the same effect.
English nationalism puzzles me. The UK is about as complex a state construct as its possible to get, a composite of two old Kingdoms, quarter of a third Kingdon plus a principality which claims to be a country equal to the other two which legally was annexed by one of them.
If we discard all of this we get to England. Who was unified after one Norse king lost to another invading Norse king who had already taken Normandy. We the had that long spell where great English heroes like Richard the Lionheart spent almost no time here and didn't speak English, where our language is a fantastic hodgepodge of everyone else's languages, and where our patron Saint has nob all to do with us and our flag was nicked from an Italian city state.
English Nationalism seems entertaining when I've heard it demand pure anglo-saxon bloodlines (err thats TWO bloodlines so not pure and both german...). My brother in laws as younger men seemed enamoured with such nonsense - I asked them whether they planned to repatriate themselves back to either Ireland or Spain as neither parent was English. At whhich point they seemed to grasp the stupidity of the whole exercise.
Mind you, the best kind of nationalism are the morons who move to somewhere like Spain, don't integrate, don't learn the language, seem hostile to the natives of the country they have moved to and yet bang on endlessly about "bloody foreigners" back home who apparently don't integrate or learn the language.
Nationalism is a corrupt irrational philosophy of angry retards
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
English nationalism puzzles me. The UK is about as complex a state construct as its possible to get, a composite of two old Kingdoms, quarter of a third Kingdon plus a principality which claims to be a country equal to the other two which legally was annexed by one of them.
If we discard all of this we get to England. Who was unified after one Norse king lost to another invading Norse king who had already taken Normandy. We the had that long spell where great English heroes like Richard the Lionheart spent almost no time here and didn't speak English, where our language is a fantastic hodgepodge of everyone else's languages, and where our patron Saint has nob all to do with us and our flag was nicked from an Italian city state.
English Nationalism seems entertaining when I've heard it demand pure anglo-saxon bloodlines (err thats TWO bloodlines so not pure and both german...). My brother in laws as younger men seemed enamoured with such nonsense - I asked them whether they planned to repatriate themselves back to either Ireland or Spain as neither parent was English. At whhich point they seemed to grasp the stupidity of the whole exercise.
Mind you, the best kind of nationalism are the morons who move to somewhere like Spain, don't integrate, don't learn the language, seem hostile to the natives of the country they have moved to and yet bang on endlessly about "bloody foreigners" back home who apparently don't integrate or learn the language.
They call themselves expats, I always pull them up when I hear that and remind them they are immigrants.
That, though, is the beauty of football. Football as an analogy for the Tory Party is not one of your better proposals TSE, if I may say so.
Edit: I suppose BoJo could always be crushed under a falling black swan, but that's the equivalent of the match being abandoned with 10 mins to go due to a swarm of locusts devouring the pitch.
I want Brexit so that my country can be sovereign. I want English (or Scottish) independence so my country can be sovereign.
Fully consistent.
You want Brexit so which country can be sovereign - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? But you disavow the Union - so you don't care about the sovereignty of your country as you want to dismantle your country.
What specifically do you want to have sovereignty for? "England" has been an ever-evolving place as you know. When you seek nationhood for England do you include or exclude Wales? If its exclude then we're talking about pre-1535 England. In which case I assume you lay claim to Calais? Or perhaps gp further back and demand fealty of other parts of modern day France.
Tell you what. If you represent English Nationalism, I'll start a campaign to resurrect the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Strathclyde
In an ideal world I would want English independence using England as defined today. I would like to see Wales and Scotland as friendly neighbours.
But if the Welsh and Scots don't want independence I don't mind them tagging along with us that much.
As I said before, you are definitely not a Conservative
I am struggling to see what party would want him. Maybe he could squat in the BXP so long as they don’t have any other policies?
I think he is like a right wing version of Jeremy Corbyn. Enjoys being a contrarian because he thinks it looks clever when, of course, it looks rather the reverse.
Electoral Calculus sets out at least 'seven political tribes'. Finland has PR and reportedly has >>20 parties in parliament.
FPTP doesn't cater at all well for this variety. That's why we're now arguing about what each party stands for when most of them are multiple parties under the same name.
Andrew Neil is absolutely must watch. Mordaunt latest/current casualty.
"Your party has gone bonkers; it thinks Brexit is more important than the Union."
Since Andrew Neil has for a long time been a fervent Leave advocate, if he has suddenly found his own cherished belief system under attack from the beast that he has fed, he should take a long hard look in the mirror as to how that might have come to pass.
Nah. He is a good journalist. If I asked you, for your day job, to skewer a Remainer you would have no problem in doing so and in picking holes in the Remain argument.
I have often thought that it would be fun, here on PB, to have a day when everyone argues the reverse of what they believe.
I am pretty sure Andrew Neil prioritises the Union over Brexit, so I don't think this interview challenges his beliefs.
The issue I have with Neil is that his blatant biases get in the way of his interviews, to the opposite effect to what might be expected. He doesn't engage with people he agrees with, which means their arguments don't get tested. He challenges those he doesn't agree with, but if you stand your ground and argue from first principles you can get a good hearing.
He is by all accounts a Brexiter.
If you read The Bad Boys Of Brexit there is a bit where Neil arranges for Banks to meet a group of people who might give him funds. There is no "if" about it.
Neil has problems. There have been two occasions in the past two years where he has adopted positions that were risible (only UK can make Airbus wings, and the German federal election inconclusive result was the worst constitutional vcrisis since ww2). In both cases he was backed up by sources, but the positions did not withstand inspection. He's smart, but I think he's Wikipedia Metropolitan Elite smart: he repeats positions backed by logic and sources but never stops to check for plausibility or to say "hold on, this is bollocks".
He was also apparently wrong in this debate with Peter Hitchens. Hitchens is on a mission on this one, and it seems the tide is turning his way
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
Especially as it will save them, what is it, £150k? And surely BoJo will give either Hunt or Gove the CoE to save himself the other £150k.
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
Especially as it will save them, what is it, £150k?
I want Brexit so that my country can be sovereign. I want English (or Scottish) independence so my country can be sovereign.
Fully consistent.
You want Brexit so which country can be sovereign - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? But you disavow the Union - so you don't care about the sovereignty of your country as you want to dismantle your country.
What specifically do you want to have sovereignty for? "England" has been an ever-evolving place as you know. When you seek nationhood for England do you include or exclude Wales? If its exclude then we're talking about pre-1535 England. In which case I assume you lay claim to Calais? Or perhaps gp further back and demand fealty of other parts of modern day France.
Tell you what. If you represent English Nationalism, I'll start a campaign to resurrect the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Strathclyde
In an ideal world I would want English independence using England as defined today. I would like to see Wales and Scotland as friendly neighbours.
But if the Welsh and Scots don't want independence I don't mind them tagging along with us that much.
As I said before, you are definitely not a Conservative
I am struggling to see what party would want him. Maybe he could squat in the BXP so long as they don’t have any other policies?
I think he is like a right wing version of Jeremy Corbyn. Enjoys being a contrarian because he thinks it looks clever when, of course, it looks rather the reverse.
Electoral Calculus sets out at least 'seven political tribes'. Finland has PR and reportedly has >>20 parties in parliament.
FPTP doesn't cater at all well for this variety. That's why we're now arguing about what each party stands for when most of them are multiple parties under the same name.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
Well if he repeats it as clearly - "we are leaving on 31 Oct with or without a deal" - in a high profile TV setting here or in the UK parliament, I will immediately lump on a 2019 general election.
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
Especially as it will save them, what is it, £150k?
Pocket change for Jeremy Hunt, he's loaded.
Ah yes - good point. But still, he must covet that CoE position.
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
I reckon BJ has already promised COTE more than once
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
I reckon BJ has already promised COTE more than once
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Well there, my friend, we are for once in total agreement!
I respect your views, even though I heartily disagree with nearly all of them, so it's nice to fined something we do agree on
English nationalism puzzles me. The UK is about as complex a state construct as its possible to get, a composite of two old Kingdoms, quarter of a third Kingdon plus a principality which claims to be a country equal to the other two which legally was annexed by one of them.
If we discard all of this we get to England. Who was unified after one Norse king lost to another invading Norse king who had already taken Normandy. We the had that long spell where great English heroes like Richard the Lionheart spent almost no time here and didn't speak English, where our language is a fantastic hodgepodge of everyone else's languages, and where our patron Saint has nob all to do with us and our flag was nicked from an Italian city state.
English Nationalism seems entertaining when I've heard it demand pure anglo-saxon bloodlines (err thats TWO bloodlines so not pure and both german...). My brother in laws as younger men seemed enamoured with such nonsense - I asked them whether they planned to repatriate themselves back to either Ireland or Spain as neither parent was English. At whhich point they seemed to grasp the stupidity of the whole exercise.
Mind you, the best kind of nationalism are the morons who move to somewhere like Spain, don't integrate, don't learn the language, seem hostile to the natives of the country they have moved to and yet bang on endlessly about "bloody foreigners" back home who apparently don't integrate or learn the language.
They call themselves expats, I always pull them up when I hear that and remind them they are immigrants.
Perhaps immigrants should call themselves ex-pats. "Bloody ex-pats coming over here and stealing our jobs and council houses".
I want Brexit so that my country can be sovereign. I want English (or Scottish) independence so my country can be sovereign.
Fully consistent.
You want Brexit so which country can be sovereign - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? But you disavow the Union - so you don't care about the sovereignty of your country as you want to dismantle your country.
What specifically do you want to have sovereignty for? "England" has been an ever-evolving place as you know. When you seek nationhood for England do you include or exclude Wales? If its exclude then we're talking about pre-1535 England. In which case I assume you lay claim to Calais? Or perhaps gp further back and demand fealty of other parts of modern day France.
Tell you what. If you represent English Nationalism, I'll start a campaign to resurrect the Danelaw and the Kingdom of Strathclyde
In an ideal world I would want English independence using England as defined today. I would like to see Wales and Scotland as friendly neighbours.
But if the Welsh and Scots don't want independence I don't mind them tagging along with us that much.
As I said before, you are definitely not a Conservative
I am struggling to see what party would want him. Maybe he could squat in the BXP so long as they don’t have any other policies?
I think he is like a right wing version of Jeremy Corbyn. Enjoys being a contrarian because he thinks it looks clever when, of course, it looks rather the reverse.
Electoral Calculus sets out at least 'seven political tribes'. Finland has PR and reportedly has >>20 parties in parliament.
FPTP doesn't cater at all well for this variety. That's why we're now arguing about what each party stands for when most of them are multiple parties under the same name.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
Perhaps you are the one who is marching out of step?
John Prescott told the House that the only good Tory is Frankie Dettori, who has just ridden the first three winners at Royal Ascot today. It is 23 years since Frankie went through the card with his Magnificent Seven.
John Prescott told the House that the only good Tory is Frankie Dettori, who has just ridden the first three winners at Royal Ascot today. It is 23 years since Frankie went through the card with his Magnificent Seven.
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Well if Boris's opponent withdraws later this evening they can get this done as early as tomorrow afternoon.
Indeed.
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
If Boris is willing to let them name their cabinet position (presumably either COTE or DPM) there's got to be an above average chance that they'll withdraw given how pro-Boris the membership is....
I reckon BJ has already promised COTE more than once
I reckon BJ has already promised COTE more than once
The new Chancellor will be Sajid Truss-Raab. The first female, the first muslim, and the first MP for Esher and Walton ever to hold the position. An inspired choice.
John Prescott told the House that the only good Tory is Frankie Dettori, who has just ridden the first three winners at Royal Ascot today. It is 23 years since Frankie went through the card with his Magnificent Seven.
A bit harsh on Daniel Vettori, who was pretty decent for New Zealand cricket.
Tory leave MPs should tactically vote for Gove to get two Leave MPs in the run off.
Yes, all Tory leave MPs should vote tactically for Gove and all Tory remain MPs should vote tactically for Hunt. Don’t leave it to someone else - they may be leaving it to you!
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
The problem is that because BXP is a company with subscribers, it isn’t incompatible with Conservative Party membership.
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Interesting. Why?
He is another nasty xenophobe like Theresa May.
My philosophy is liberal Conservatism. Small state economically and socially. Like Cameron and Thatcher and Churchill or Peel.
I just want a slightly smaller state than most of them
Bizzare on here how people resort to calling others trolls when they come across a viewpoint they do not like. Maybe we just have different opinions?
As I said earlier, those who carry on about diversity don’t seem to want a diverse cross section of opinions, rather a diverse cross section of skin colour, religious affiliation and political party support with the same opinion. The forefathers of multiculturalism admit that’s what they thought would happen and didn’t consider that Asian immigrants weren’t desperate to become secular Europeans... why should they? The whole thing is predicated on colonial arrogance by people who think colonialism is a dirty word
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
The problem is that because BXP is a company with subscribers, it isn’t incompatible with Conservative Party membership.
True but that simply means many existing and long term Tory members have been able to support BXP without leaving the Tory party. That may be something that Nigel and others are rightly unhappy about but it doesnt make those people entryists.
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Interesting. Why?
He is another nasty xenophobe like Theresa May.
My philosophy is liberal Conservatism. Small state economically and socially. Like Cameron and Thatcher and Churchill or Peel.
I just want a slightly smaller state than most of them
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Interesting. Why?
He is another nasty xenophobe like Theresa May.
My philosophy is liberal Conservatism. Small state economically and socially. Like Cameron and Thatcher and Churchill or Peel.
I just want a slightly smaller state than most of them
Identical to my view as well. PM Farage is not something I would welcome.
Well if he repeats it as clearly - "we are leaving on 31 Oct with or without a deal" - in a high profile TV setting here or in the UK parliament, I will immediately lump on a 2019 general election.
But until he does ...
Please don't get the idea I'm suggesting you should believe it, just because he's said it!
All I was pointing out was that he had said it ...
Tory leave MPs should tactically vote for Gove to get two Leave MPs in the run off.
Yes, all Tory leave MPs should vote tactically for Gove and all Tory remain MPs should vote tactically for Hunt. Don’t leave it to someone else - they may be leaving it to you!
I am puzzled why the same PBers who thought it was a jolly jape that £3 entryists got a vote in the Labour leadership election are now indignant that various far-right entryists will get a vote in the Conservative leadership election.
Not that it matters when your long-standing membership is full of swivel-eyed loons who will genuflect at the altar of Bozo anyway.
I regret that as a former long-term member my great distaste for authoritarian May means I won't get a vote now.
Ironically I joined pre-Cameron as I was that disgusted that the members had gone for IDS over Ken Clarke that I joined to get a vote next time. Was happy then to vote for Cameron over DD.
"authoritarian May" Guffaw!
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
I would hate to have Farage as PM. I despise the man.
Interesting. Why?
He is another nasty xenophobe like Theresa May.
My philosophy is liberal Conservatism. Small state economically and socially. Like Cameron and Thatcher and Churchill or Peel.
I just want a slightly smaller state than most of them
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
The problem is that because BXP is a company with subscribers, it isn’t incompatible with Conservative Party membership.
True but that simply means many existing and long term Tory members have been able to support BXP without leaving the Tory party. That may be something that Nigel and others are rightly unhappy about but it doesnt make those people entryists.
One third of Conservative Party members joined within the past year.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
If only unionists should be in the party then should only social conservatives be in the party too? Because of the name. Should those of us who are liberal leave the party because it doesn't fit the name?
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
The problem is that because BXP is a company with subscribers, it isn’t incompatible with Conservative Party membership.
True but that simply means many existing and long term Tory members have been able to support BXP without leaving the Tory party. That may be something that Nigel and others are rightly unhappy about but it doesnt make those people entryists.
No, they ought to be exitists. That’s my point - people would think twice if joining BXP meant signing up to another political party and, according to the rules, leaving their current one. Farage has cleverly made it easy to be in both.
Fair point, but until the Conservative Party was infiltrated by entryists there was no one who would advocate a policy that would risk the break up of the Union. Clearly that is not the case now if opinion polls of so-called Conservative members are accurate.
As I said yesterday I don't believe you are correct at all about the party being infiltrated by entryists. Up until a year or so ago the left of the party including people on here were celebrating the fact that so many Eurosceptics had left the party and even a few months sgo there were claims that the rump of the party were more likely to be pro or neutral on the EU.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise (but seems to) that most Conservatives don't like the EU very much.
Must be a shock to even you that the Tories are prepared to risk the Union to ensure Brexit.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
Some of you need to wake up to what your party has become. You’ve been screaming about Corbynism for long enough; time to pay some attention closer to home?
I'm aware and I'm up for the good fight.
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Going from May to Boris will be like from IDS to Cameron.
Comments
Neil has problems. There have been two occasions in the past two years where he has adopted positions that were risible (only UK can make Airbus wings, and the German federal election inconclusive result was the worst constitutional vcrisis since ww2). In both cases he was backed up by sources, but the positions did not withstand inspection. He's smart, but I think he's Wikipedia Metropolitan Elite smart: he repeats positions backed by logic and sources but never stops to check for plausibility or to say "hold on, this is bollocks".
Esther McVey asked her at PMQs -
"Will we be leaving the EU on 29th March ... come what may?"
TM dodged it. A sign that she was not up for No Deal.
The absolute state of her.
I am not a soft-C conservative. And as my membership lapsed under illiberal May I am not a member, though I was for well over a decade before she became PM, I am no longer a capital-C Conservative.
I was at Party Conference as a Party Member in 2015 when May gave one of the most disgusting speeches I have ever had the discomfort to sit through. It was BNP redux. I have had no respect for her ever since, I opposed her leadership bid because of that and when she won the leadership I decided I was not renewing my membership.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/06/guardian-view-on-theresa-may-conservative-party-conference-speech-nasty-party
Was there an end of season thread on the PB Fantasy League results?
TSE was Esther I believe...
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1141692574060732416
Wait till we end up with PM Farage, then you will see what authoritarian looks like!
If we discard all of this we get to England. Who was unified after one Norse king lost to another invading Norse king who had already taken Normandy. We the had that long spell where great English heroes like Richard the Lionheart spent almost no time here and didn't speak English, where our language is a fantastic hodgepodge of everyone else's languages, and where our patron Saint has nob all to do with us and our flag was nicked from an Italian city state.
English Nationalism seems entertaining when I've heard it demand pure anglo-saxon bloodlines (err thats TWO bloodlines so not pure and both german...). My brother in laws as younger men seemed enamoured with such nonsense - I asked them whether they planned to repatriate themselves back to either Ireland or Spain as neither parent was English. At whhich point they seemed to grasp the stupidity of the whole exercise.
Mind you, the best kind of nationalism are the morons who move to somewhere like Spain, don't integrate, don't learn the language, seem hostile to the natives of the country they have moved to and yet bang on endlessly about "bloody foreigners" back home who apparently don't integrate or learn the language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VzNx27VAXw
And tbh what is the point of them continuing, since they must surely lose?
George Canning 119 days
... so far!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HldRlTZj_g&t=
Jeremy Hunt = Jurgen Klopp.
What would the Venn diagram look like?
Edit: I suppose BoJo could always be crushed under a falling black swan, but that's the equivalent of the match being abandoned with 10 mins to go due to a swarm of locusts devouring the pitch.
Jeremy Hunt wins absolute ecstasy for me as it would be my biggest ever winner.
Not sure if I've ever mentioned it but I did tip him at 100/1 and 66/1.
I would put it up as 825 - 850
FPTP doesn't cater at all well for this variety. That's why we're now arguing about what each party stands for when most of them are multiple parties under the same name.
https://youtu.be/6TvNt-fhsew
What was the winning points total?
Well if he repeats it as clearly - "we are leaving on 31 Oct with or without a deal" - in a high profile TV setting here or in the UK parliament, I will immediately lump on a 2019 general election.
But until he does ...
Edit: ooops not him,..but he did die!
I respect your views, even though I heartily disagree with nearly all of them, so it's nice to fined something we do agree on
The MPs are cretins for voluntarily being Boris' glove puppets.
And yet it seems that, if the reports are now to be believed, Europhilia of the Heseltine variety represents only a tiny fraction of the membership.
It seems to me that this is not so much a case of entryism as it is a fundemental misunderstanding on your part of the long term views of a large majority of your own party.
Of course I am. Someone took over the band and changed the music to something that was far better for the goosestep. I don't do that kind of marching.
The BBC's chief political correspondent Vicki Young reports that this round's ballot papers are pink.
It's also the longest queue to vote seen so far, she says.
And when it comes to the two spoilt ballot papers from the previous round, most people think it wasn't the prime minister, our correspondent adds."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-48690973
My philosophy is liberal Conservatism. Small state economically and socially. Like Cameron and Thatcher and Churchill or Peel.
I just want a slightly smaller state than most of them
If there is a tie another round will be held at 19:30.
Not all proxies will be around at 19:30
Edit: TSE has already posted this.
I thought we were the Conservative and Unionist Party.
All I was pointing out was that he had said it ...
Hunt 122
Gove 97
Johnson 94
I'm not French, I'm not going to surrender at the first sign of difficulty.
We went from going from IDS to David Cameron, we can do so again.
Don't believe me? Ask George Osborne.