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But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
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The Wikipedia page for the Tory leadership lists by name 71 supporters for Boris Johnson but the number appearing against his name is stuck on 65.0
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No, he meant we have Time.rpjs said:
Not really. UTC is controlled by the ITU in Geneva.Luckyguy1983 said:We just have time.
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To be fair we have the option of opening up a second front against the EU and working with Putin to try to unravel it. That is what Leavers want, isn't it?Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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Good point. There is always that!williamglenn said:
To be fair we have the option of opening up a second front against the EU and working with Putin to try to unravel it. That is what Leavers want, isn't it?Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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Oh do get a grip.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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Explain how I'm wrong?Luckyguy1983 said:
Oh do get a grip.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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Rogue state?williamglenn said:
The UK is a potential rogue state and the backstop minimises any self-harm from affecting our neighbours. That's why the EU is insisting on it.Philip_Thompson said:
Cut the bullshit, nobody believes it. If no backstop put the UK in a weaker position the EU wouldn't be so desperate to insist on it.williamglenn said:
In a withdrawal deal without a backstop, the EU can dictate terms to ensure the border stays open in the future relationship. With the backstop they can't.Philip_Thompson said:
No Deal is not better than a hypothetical deal. A deal without a backstop is a hypothetical deal, I want that hypothetical deal.eek said:
Why is No Deal better than a hypothetical deal. What exactly is No Deal in your view?Philip_Thompson said:
No deal is better than a bad deal for us too, and a bad deal for the United Kingdom wil be one that left open the possibility of using the backstop for leverage.williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
So since no deal is better than lets go ahead with that.
No deal is better then a bad deal. Ireland and the EU are OK with that happening, why shouldn't we be too?
You want to put the UK in a weaker position.
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...0 -
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...1 -
British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.0 -
Silly comments like this diminish you.williamglenn said:
The UK is a potential rogue state and the backstop minimises any self-harm from affecting our neighbours. That's why the EU is insisting on it.Philip_Thompson said:
Cut the bullshit, nobody believes it. If no backstop put the UK in a weaker position the EU wouldn't be so desperate to insist on it.williamglenn said:
In a withdrawal deal without a backstop, the EU can dictate terms to ensure the border stays open in the future relationship. With the backstop they can't.Philip_Thompson said:
No Deal is not better than a hypothetical deal. A deal without a backstop is a hypothetical deal, I want that hypothetical deal.eek said:
Why is No Deal better than a hypothetical deal. What exactly is No Deal in your view?Philip_Thompson said:
No deal is better than a bad deal for us too, and a bad deal for the United Kingdom wil be one that left open the possibility of using the backstop for leverage.williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
So since no deal is better than lets go ahead with that.
No deal is better then a bad deal. Ireland and the EU are OK with that happening, why shouldn't we be too?
You want to put the UK in a weaker position.0 -
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.0 -
The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...0 -
No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
NI has the right to self-determination.0 -
Why isn't that obvious to anyone that knows him?rpjs said:
Schroedinger's Boris.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can only conclude people are desperate to believe what they want to hear when they hear it.0 -
How far under the bus will the EU throw Ireland, by signing up to this?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g20-japan-tax/g20-agrees-to-push-ahead-with-digital-tax-communique-idUSKCN1T903D0 -
No it isn't. Where are the EU tanks on our streets?kyf_100 said:
The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...0 -
And would vote for the backstop.Philip_Thompson said:
No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
NI has the right to self-determination.
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For luckyguy to properly answer, but we're really not likely to be attacked (militarily) by the EU. There is also no united front against us. We've not presented anything coherent enough to unite against.Gallowgate said:
Explain how I'm wrong?Luckyguy1983 said:
Oh do get a grip.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
I'd suggest that there is no likely outcome where we are not the most important nation in Europe, or at least for London as a city.
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What complete and utter crapPhilip_Thompson said:
No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
NI has the right to self-determination.
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Apart from your dodgy history (where is the rest of the world in all this?), why is it always your side that accuses everyone else of being obsessed by our colonial past, but simultaneously your side that frets about our international prestige and our seat at the table and our lack of clout in the counsels of the world? Switzerland is not a vassal state of the EU, nor is Norway, nor is Russia. Can you point to a single one infact? The only way to become an EU vassal state is to join it.Gallowgate said:
Explain how I'm wrong?Luckyguy1983 said:
Oh do get a grip.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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I fully get that your side believes NI having the right to self-determination is complete and utter crap.nichomar said:
What complete and utter crapPhilip_Thompson said:
No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
NI has the right to self-determination.0 -
Fujiyama said something similar about history a quarter of a century back. He was rather more erudite, but equally wrong.Philip_Thompson said:
British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.
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Source please.Philip_Thompson said:
British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.0 -
Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.
Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking.0 -
It's a helluva view.rpjs said:
The new 1WTC has a viewing gallery as well. As an employee of a WTC tenant (I'm currently looking out at the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges from the 60th floor of 4WTC) I believe I'm supposed to get a discount but haven't got around to doing it yet.Foxy said:
Mid you, last time I was in NYC, I went up the World Trade Centre. It has been a while!Cyclefree said:
I know. I’ve done it. Fascinating.Foxy said:
The Ellis Island museum is well worth the boat trip, and great views of the Statue of Liberty and harbour.Cyclefree said:It is a beautifully sunny day. But on such a day I really want to be in a nice garden somewhere away from traffic. NY is not ideal for that. So heading off to a museum instead.
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So you claim but we've had both a General Election and a Northern Ireland assembly election since the referendum and their elected representatives are opposed to the backstop.Nigelb said:
And would vote for the backstop.Philip_Thompson said:
No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
NI has the right to self-determination.0 -
Brilliant. So a Swiss soft Brexit it is then! Thanks for confirming the right course of action.Luckyguy1983 said:
Apart from your dodgy history (where is the rest of the world in all this?), why is it always your side that accuses everyone else of being obsessed by our colonial past, but simultaneously your side that frets about our international prestige and our seat at the table and our lack of clout in the counsels of the world? Switzerland is not a vassal state of the EU, nor is Norway, nor is Russia. Can you point to a single one infact? The only way to become an EU vassal state is to join it.Gallowgate said:
Explain how I'm wrong?Luckyguy1983 said:
Oh do get a grip.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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Silly comments like that diminish him? The man is a silly comment. It's his thing.Casino_Royale said:
Silly comments like this diminish you.williamglenn said:
The UK is a potential rogue state and the backstop minimises any self-harm from affecting our neighbours. That's why the EU is insisting on it.Philip_Thompson said:
Cut the bullshit, nobody believes it. If no backstop put the UK in a weaker position the EU wouldn't be so desperate to insist on it.williamglenn said:
In a withdrawal deal without a backstop, the EU can dictate terms to ensure the border stays open in the future relationship. With the backstop they can't.Philip_Thompson said:
No Deal is not better than a hypothetical deal. A deal without a backstop is a hypothetical deal, I want that hypothetical deal.eek said:
Why is No Deal better than a hypothetical deal. What exactly is No Deal in your view?Philip_Thompson said:
No deal is better than a bad deal for us too, and a bad deal for the United Kingdom wil be one that left open the possibility of using the backstop for leverage.williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
So since no deal is better than lets go ahead with that.
No deal is better then a bad deal. Ireland and the EU are OK with that happening, why shouldn't we be too?
You want to put the UK in a weaker position.1 -
Wouldn't it be great if Tory MPs were all playing a huge prank at Bozo's expense and on Thursday he receives a grand total of 1 vote. From himself.1
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Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.another_richard said:
Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/1047410 -
A source for what part.Gallowgate said:
Source please.Philip_Thompson said:
British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.0 -
I know Rory is a Tory, but he's got the resonance and tone of his pitch all wrong. In his (sincere) attempts to look and sound different, he's overplayed it. Some of his choices of language aren't right either, like using love instead of compassion. As a consequence he's only appealing to those already not voting for his own party, and many who never would, who are desperate to seek solace in a Tory candidate for PM (who will be foisted on them anyway) who they can at least tolerate.kle4 said:
Perhaps instead of condescending that I did not comprehend your point, you might consider that your point was not in any way well made and was not as self evident as you thought it was, given multiple people have taken away from it what you claim was not there. It happens, believe me I know.Casino_Royale said:
Read my posts again, and try and understand what I’ve said.kle4 said:
Then why say he 'could have made that pitch for the Conservatives' and that he didn't? Seems a lot like saying he is not making a Conservative pitch.Casino_Royale said:
Bullocks. I’ve written over this thread and previous that I do think he’s a ConservativeOblitusSumMe said:
Rory does support a moderate Brexit. That you don't recognize it as such only goes to show how difficult his job is.Casino_Royale said:
Rory could have made that pitch for the Conservatives, with a moderate Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
In thatkle4 said:
Conservatism is Brexit, nothing more, nothing less. That is what the massive surge to BXP has taught us.Richard_Nabavi said:The
He didn’t, so he’ll lose.
Whatever your claimed intent, you said he did not make a pitch for the Conservatives, and are now whining that people read into that that you do not think he made a Conservative pitch.
He's got some things right, and his language of healing and unity is good, but it's no good winning over a few centrist floating voters if the entire Tory base desert him too - that's not building a winning coalition.
So far I'd say he's a nicer and more thoughtful Portillo c.2001 (on opium) as opposed to the stardust-sprinkled Cameron c.2005, who rode both horses.
If he'd got all the above right, we'd be looking at Cameron 2.0 for the 2020s and he'd be heading for the final two.0 -
You're about to be told that self-determination doesn't actually mean you get to determine what happens to you.williamglenn said:0 -
That geography does not matter. The large American (10B+ USD) industrial/motion and controls company that I work for has localised manufacturing in ASIAPAC, EMEA and the Americas for the exact reason that Geography DOES matter.Philip_Thompson said:
A source for what part.Gallowgate said:
Source please.Philip_Thompson said:
British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.0 -
I'd be very happy with EFTA. I'd be happy with most forms of Brexit - unlike most here I don't think the regulations governing our trade with the continent are the pivotal issue. I don't think No deal would be bad but I'm happy with whatever stops people wetting the bed.Gallowgate said:
Brilliant. So a Swiss soft Brexit it is then! Thanks for confirming the right course of action.Luckyguy1983 said:
Apart from your dodgy history (where is the rest of the world in all this?), why is it always your side that accuses everyone else of being obsessed by our colonial past, but simultaneously your side that frets about our international prestige and our seat at the table and our lack of clout in the counsels of the world? Switzerland is not a vassal state of the EU, nor is Norway, nor is Russia. Can you point to a single one infact? The only way to become an EU vassal state is to join it.Gallowgate said:
Explain how I'm wrong?Luckyguy1983 said:
Oh do get a grip.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
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viewcode said:
The word you are looking for is "taint". Boris the Taint. Seems apt in a GoT way.SandyRentool said:
Simultaneously a twat and an arsehole.rpjs said:
Schroedinger's Boris.TheScreamingEagles said:
Shit would do, too.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/johnson-allowed-arms-sales-to-saudis-after-strike-on-food-factory0 -
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
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Judging by invoices I've seen over the years some businesses in Northern Ireland don't know what VAT rates they should be charging.Streeter said:FPT
Anecdote.
Accounts manager at work, had to invoice a firm in Belfast.
“Do we have to charge them VAT? Are they in Eire?”0 -
I was being sarcastic, to demonstrate that your use of hyperbole is ridiculous. But oh well, if you insist, here you go...williamglenn said:
No it isn't. Where are the EU tanks on our streets?kyf_100 said:
The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602683/Invasion-EU-army-Worried-Euro-tanks-park-lawn-Minister-late-here.html
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Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.isam said:0 -
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.0 -
SandyRentool said:
Wouldn't it be great if Tory MPs were all playing a huge prank at Bozo's expense and on Thursday he receives a grand total of 1 vote. From himself.
More seriously, if he gets n-x, where n is the public declared and x is the actuality, things could get tricky. 0 -
I was reading an article about the photomontage artist who created that cover. Apparently his trademark is that Phil Mitchell from EastEnders appears in all his works. There he is behind Angela Merkel.williamglenn said:
No, he meant we have Time.rpjs said:
Not really. UTC is controlled by the ITU in Geneva.Luckyguy1983 said:We just have time.
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Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.0 -
What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.0 -
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.0 -
They think a GE is coming and he is the best bet in shoring up the Tory vote, whatever the situation. I cannot see any other explanation why people with entirely divergent views on the critical issue back him.Casino_Royale said:
Why isn't that obvious to anyone that knows him?rpjs said:
Schroedinger's Boris.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can only conclude people are desperate to believe what they want to hear when they hear it.0 -
Thank the heavens we're leaving.kyf_100 said:
I was being sarcastic, to demonstrate that your use of hyperbole is ridiculous. But oh well, if you insist, here you go...williamglenn said:
No it isn't. Where are the EU tanks on our streets?kyf_100 said:
The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?williamglenn said:
The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.Philip_Thompson said:Rogue state?
“The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Or maybe not ...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602683/Invasion-EU-army-Worried-Euro-tanks-park-lawn-Minister-late-here.html
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The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?williamglenn said:
Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.another_richard said:
Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?
This Thatcher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x40 -
Tainted Gove, surely!viewcode said:
The word you are looking for is "taint". Boris the Taint. Seems apt in a GoT way.SandyRentool said:
Simultaneously a twat and an arsehole.rpjs said:
Schroedinger's Boris.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
If it is this page it lists my MP, Andrew Murruson, as backing Raab, but he has come out for Boris, so it is not perfect.AndyJS said:The Wikipedia page for the Tory leadership lists by name 71 supporters for Boris Johnson but the number appearing against his name is stuck on 65.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2019_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election0 -
That too.kle4 said:
They think a GE is coming and he is the best bet in shoring up the Tory vote, whatever the situation. I cannot see any other explanation why people with entirely divergent views on the critical issue back him.Casino_Royale said:
Why isn't that obvious to anyone that knows him?rpjs said:
Schroedinger's Boris.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can only conclude people are desperate to believe what they want to hear when they hear it.0 -
The WWTD arguments are surely the lowest grade of Brexit argument.another_richard said:
The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?williamglenn said:
Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.another_richard said:
Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?
This Thatcher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x42 -
Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.Stereotomy said:
Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.isam said:0 -
7WTC?Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
0 -
I'm undoubtedly being thick here, but can you point to what precisely you dislike?another_richard said:
The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?williamglenn said:
Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.another_richard said:
Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?
This Thatcher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4
0 -
This is Boris Johnson's answer to the WWTD question.Stereotomy said:The WWTD arguments are surely the lowest grade of Brexit argument.
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/11381788845355008030 -
Off topic, but it appears that the Trump administration is now cross about EU governments increasing military spending. Apparently, they were supposed to spend the money with US defence firms, rather than on soldiers or with European firms.0
-
How lovely of you to want to bully people. What a great reason to be in the EU. We may get shat on but we can still feel smug about theoretically doing the same to others. Farcical empire-obsessed remainers who think they're in a game of Risk. A nation that can grow, prosper, thrive, and protect its borders is what we need. Everything else is noise. 'Vanity, vanity, all is vanity' - Ecclesiastesviewcode said:
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.0 -
This times 1000!Stereotomy said:
The WWTD arguments are surely the lowest grade of Brexit argument.another_richard said:
The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?williamglenn said:
Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.another_richard said:
Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.Gallowgate said:British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?
This Thatcher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4
I would not be surprised if one of the candidates ends up stating the ghost of Thatcher visited them in a dream to tell them what to do. They'll offer prayers to her name as they go into a GE, exhorting the troops that she is behind them.1 -
You’re right he’s the Tory who i would think about voting for but never would because he is a toryCasino_Royale said:
I know Rory is a Tory, but he's got the resonance and tone of his pitch all wrong. In his (sincere) attempts to look and sound different, he's overplayed it. Some of his choices of language aren't right either, like using love instead of compassion. As a consequence he's only appealing to those already not voting for his own party, and many who never would, who are desperate to seek solace in a Tory candidate for PM (who will be foisted on them anyway) who they can at least tolerate.kle4 said:
Perhaps instead of condescending that I did not comprehend your point, you might consider that your point was not in any way well made and was not as self evident as you thought it was, given multiple people have taken away from it what you claim was not there. It happens, believe me I know.Casino_Royale said:
Read my posts again, and try and understand what I’ve said.kle4 said:
Then why say he 'could have made that pitch for the Conservatives' and that he didn't? Seems a lot like saying he is not making a Conservative pitch.Casino_Royale said:
Bullocks. I’ve written over this thread and previous that I do think he’s a ConservativeOblitusSumMe said:
Rory does support a moderate Brexit. That you don't recognize it as such only goes to show how difficult his job is.Casino_Royale said:
Rory could have made that pitch for the Conservatives, with a moderate Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
In thatkle4 said:
Conservatism is Brexit, nothing more, nothing less. That is what the massive surge to BXP has taught us.Richard_Nabavi said:The
He didn’t, so he’ll lose.
Whatever your claimed intent, you said he did not make a pitch for the Conservatives, and are now whining that people read into that that you do not think he made a Conservative pitch.
He's got some things right, and his language of healing and unity is good, but it's no good winning over a few centrist floating voters if the entire Tory base desert him too - that's not building a winning coalition.
So far I'd say he's a nicer and more thoughtful Portillo c.2001 (on opium) as opposed to the stardust-sprinkled Cameron c.2005, who rode both horses.
If he'd got all the above right, we'd be looking at Cameron 2.0 for the 2020s and he'd be heading for the final two.0 -
The problem with Brexiteers is that they are not transparent about they actually want. "Brexit" is a process not an end state. What is the vision?
Is it Switzerland? Then that dictates a close relationship with the EU and not simply a 'FTA'.
Is it Russia? Not sure that's a positive role model.
Is it Canada? If so, what is Canada? To rely on the US market as our primary foreign market rather than the EU and if so, what is the consequence of that?
Is it Australia? How can we compare our economy with theirs when theirs is so heavily raw material based?
Is it Japan? or South Korea?
If it is something else, why isn't any other country currently utilising that model, if it was so good?
Ultimately, any sensible, reasoned country would ensure a long transition period to prevent economic shocks. The knee-jerk reaction to leave in October 'COME WHAT MAY' is just insane.
Everything about Brexit is knee-jerk.0 -
Chapeau, sir...Sunil_Prasannan said:
Tainted Gove, surely!viewcode said:
The word you are looking for is "taint". Boris the Taint. Seems apt in a GoT way.SandyRentool said:
Simultaneously a twat and an arsehole.rpjs said:
Schroedinger's Boris.TheScreamingEagles said:
0 -
I saw that. International defence policy as protection racket seems to be the Trump idea.rcs1000 said:Off topic, but it appears that the Trump administration is now cross about EU governments increasing military spending. Apparently, they were supposed to spend the money with US defence firms, rather than on soldiers or with European firms.
It does for with his background mafia connections, I suppose.
0 -
If you listen to Trump's rants on European and Japanese defence going back to the 1980s, he always thought that if the US threatened to withdraw, they could extract huge sums of money.rcs1000 said:Off topic, but it appears that the Trump administration is now cross about EU governments increasing military spending. Apparently, they were supposed to spend the money with US defence firms, rather than on soldiers or with European firms.
0 -
Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.isam said:
Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.Stereotomy said:
Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.isam said:
Ultimately, "sensible centrists" are just as ideological as everyone else, but because they don't recognise that, they don't understand the necessity of defending their ideology. Instead they exist in a state of perpetual astonishment that saying "can't we all just be grown-ups about this?" isn't winning people over.1 -
We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.viewcode said:
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.1 -
Except Labour were not running on that platform. Nobody knows what Labour's policy is on Brexit. Not even them.Stereotomy said:
Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.isam said:
Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.Stereotomy said:
Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.isam said:
Ultimately, "sensible centrists" are just as ideological as everyone else, but because they don't recognise that, they don't understand the necessity of defending their ideology. Instead they exist in a state of perpetual astonishment that saying "can't we all just be grown-ups about this?" isn't winning people over.0 -
This is what you said at 8.17:Gallowgate said:
What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
" Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. "
So it was YOU who said that the EU was united against us - I merely responded to your comment
This is what I said at 8.31:
" Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.
Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "
I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.
Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.
I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.0 -
Wasn't that, by default, the Tory policy as well?Stereotomy said:
Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.isam said:
Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.Stereotomy said:
Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.isam said:
And was it Labour's policy? A lot of them were saying that even if Labour had their own deal it must be put to a referendum and they must campaign for remain.
0 -
Do we?TheScreamingEagles said:
I think you know the reason.Pulpstar said:Third, like Leadsom in the betting for some god unknown reason.
0 -
I know I'm right.nichomar said:
You’re right he’s the Tory who i would think about voting for but never would because he is a toryCasino_Royale said:
I know Rory is a Tory, but he's got the resonance and tone of his pitch all wrong. In his (sincere) attempts to look and sound different, he's overplayed it. Some of his choices of language aren't right either, like using love instead of compassion. As a consequence he's only appealing to those already not voting for his own party, and many who never would, who are desperate to seek solace in a Tory candidate for PM (who will be foisted on them anyway) who they can at least tolerate.kle4 said:
Perhaps instead of condescending that I did not comprehend your point, you might consider that your point was not in any way well made and was not as self evident as you thought it was, given multiple people have taken away from it what you claim was not there. It happens, believe me I know.Casino_Royale said:
Read my posts again, and try and understand what I’ve said.kle4 said:
Then why say he 'could have made that pitch for the Conservatives' and that he didn't? Seems a lot like saying he is not making a Conservative pitch.Casino_Royale said:
Bullocks. I’ve written over this thread and previous that I do think he’s a ConservativeOblitusSumMe said:
Rory does support a moderate Brexit. That you don't recognize it as such only goes to show how difficult his job is.Casino_Royale said:
Rory could have made that pitch for the Conservatives, with a moderate Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:
In thatkle4 said:
Conservatism is Brexit, nothing more, nothing less. That is what the massive surge to BXP has taught us.Richard_Nabavi said:The
He didn’t, so he’ll lose.
Whatever your claimed intent, you said he did not make a pitch for the Conservatives, and are now whining that people read into that that you do not think he made a Conservative pitch.
He's got some things right, and his language of healing and unity is good, but it's no good winning over a few centrist floating voters if the entire Tory base desert him too - that's not building a winning coalition.
So far I'd say he's a nicer and more thoughtful Portillo c.2001 (on opium) as opposed to the stardust-sprinkled Cameron c.2005, who rode both horses.
If he'd got all the above right, we'd be looking at Cameron 2.0 for the 2020s and he'd be heading for the final two.0 -
So 'we' Brexiteers have power, but not enough power to overrule the cowardly Remainers?Philip_Thompson said:We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.0 -
Anyone with any sort of experience that qualifies them on making the judgement on whether 'everything would be fine' or even 'is it worth it' thinks leaving without a deal is a bad idea.Philip_Thompson said:
We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.viewcode said:
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.
It's just arrogant people like you who think you know better than everyone else think that you are somehow fighting a war and that the losses will be acceptable just to somehow 'win'.
You guys are the cowards. Too cowardly to admit that Brexit as currently planned and implemented is a disaster.0 -
A Leadsom supporter with more money than sense/wanting to creative a narrative.Casino_Royale said:
Do we?TheScreamingEagles said:
I think you know the reason.Pulpstar said:Third, like Leadsom in the betting for some god unknown reason.
0 -
Turned up an EU vassal state yet? Oh well.Gallowgate said:The problem with Brexiteers is that they are not transparent about they actually want. "Brexit" is a process not an end state. What is the vision?
Is it Switzerland? Then that dictates a close relationship with the EU and not simply a 'FTA'.
Is it Russia? Not sure that's a positive role model.
Is it Canada? If so, what is Canada? To rely on the US market as our primary foreign market rather than the EU and if so, what is the consequence of that?
Is it Australia? How can we compare our economy with theirs when theirs is so heavily raw material based?
Is it Japan? or South Korea?
If it is something else, why isn't any other country currently utilising that model, if it was so good?
Ultimately, any sensible, reasoned country would ensure a long transition period to prevent economic shocks. The knee-jerk reaction to leave in October 'COME WHAT MAY' is just insane.
Everything about Brexit is knee-jerk.
As a side note, I do love the remainer faction warning us of the dread power of the EU superstate and its mere proximity guaranteeing vassalage. I remember a time when they were denying it had any pretensions to statehood at all.0 -
Arguably, but May never really ruled out No Deal in the way Labour have, and with the upcoming leadership election we knew that there was a good chance of the party pivoting to No Deal.kle4 said:
Wasn't that, by default, the Tory policy as well?Stereotomy said:
Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.isam said:
Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.Stereotomy said:
Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.isam said:0 -
No 'we' the UK have power, but Brexiteers don't have enough MPs to overrule the cowardly Remainers.williamglenn said:
So 'we' Brexiteers have power, but not enough power to overrule the cowardly Remainers?Philip_Thompson said:We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.2 -
My comment about the EU being united against us NOW is fact by the nature of them being on the other side of the negotiating table as a united front.another_richard said:
This is what you said at 8.17:Gallowgate said:
What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
" Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. "
So it was YOU who said that the EU was united against us - I merely responded to your comment
This is what I said at 8.31:
" Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.
Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "
I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.
Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.
I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
Your comment was referencing that prior to Brexit, the reason why Brexit happened was due to the EU being united against our interests. If I have misinterpreted that, I apologise.0 -
As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.williamglenn said:
Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.0 -
Ah, so it’s actually that ‘we’ the UK have the power to overrule the loony Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
No 'we' the UK have power, but Brexiteers don't have enough MPs to overrule the cowardly Remainers.williamglenn said:
So 'we' Brexiteers have power, but not enough power to overrule the cowardly Remainers?Philip_Thompson said:We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.0 -
Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.Gallowgate said:
Anyone with any sort of experience that qualifies them on making the judgement on whether 'everything would be fine' or even 'is it worth it' thinks leaving without a deal is a bad idea.Philip_Thompson said:
We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.viewcode said:
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.
It's just arrogant people like you who think you know better than everyone else think that you are somehow fighting a war and that the losses will be acceptable just to somehow 'win'.
You guys are the cowards. Too cowardly to admit that Brexit as currently planned and implemented is a disaster.
If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.0 -
The upper rate started at £19,300 in 1988.Sandpit said:
The reasoning for £80k, is that that’s what the starting point for the 40% rate would be, if it had risen with inflation since it was introduced by Lawson in (IIRC) 1988.Philip_Thompson said:
And millions of more that it was in previous years too. But either way the statement was that millions of people pay it and millions of people do. Just shows how out of touch with reality Gallowgate is FFS.eek said:
Equally it's millions less than it used to be.Philip_Thompson said:
It is millions. That's a matter of fact.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/matt_gillow/status/1138492573234937859
“Millions of people” ffs. How out of touch is she?
Then again you're a lefty. Not particularly keen on being in touch with facts are you?
In 2016/17 anyone earning over £43,000 was paying higher rate tax at 40%
in 2019/20 you need to earn £50,000 (outside of Scotland) to be paying higher rate tax - an increase from £46350 in 2018/19)..
Using the bank of England inflation calculator that 19 grand would be £50,000 today.
Which the current higher rate tax band is.0 -
What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)another_richard said:
As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.williamglenn said:
Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.0 -
Dublin knows that the eventual result of a no deal Brexit is a united Ireland and that ultimately we need the EU more than they need us.Philip_Thompson said:Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.
If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.0 -
When you start dreaming about a certain political website then you've been on it for too long.rcs1000 said:
What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)another_richard said:
As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.williamglenn said:
Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
PS - Have you seen the Radiohead news?0 -
Why would Dublin want Northern Ireland back?Gallowgate said:
Dublin knows that the eventual result of a no deal Brexit is a united Ireland and that ultimately we need the EU more than they need us.Philip_Thompson said:Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.
If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.0 -
Good question!Black_Rook said:
Why would Dublin want Northern Ireland back?Gallowgate said:
Dublin knows that the eventual result of a no deal Brexit is a united Ireland and that ultimately we need the EU more than they need us.Philip_Thompson said:Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.
If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.0 -
I don't. I was telling you what the facts were.Luckyguy1983 said:
How lovely of you to want to bully people...viewcode said:
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
0 -
I do not think the EU was united against us ** but it was united in support of EverCloserUnion which was a policy which Britain didn't support and didn't understand.Gallowgate said:
My comment about the EU being united against us NOW is fact by the nature of them being on the other side of the negotiating table as a united front.another_richard said:
This is what you said at 8.17:Gallowgate said:
What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
" Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. "
So it was YOU who said that the EU was united against us - I merely responded to your comment
This is what I said at 8.31:
" Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.
Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "
I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.
Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.
I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
Your comment was referencing that prior to Brexit, the reason why Brexit happened was due to the EU being united against our interests. If I have misinterpreted that, I apologise.
And it was the unwillingness of British governments to understand this and their fantasies that 'Europe was coming our way' which in large part has led to the current situation.
** How much the strategy of EverCloserUnion was through opposition to 'the Anglo-Saxons' / a US dominated world I don't know.
Anyway no need for apologies or harsh words, its all a bit of fun 0 -
This is a bit pantomime, Philip, if you don't mind me sayingPhilip_Thompson said:
We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.viewcode said:
So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power...Philip_Thompson said:
Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.viewcode said:
But does include cross-border organisation.Philip_Thompson said:
Which does not include the backstop...viewcode said:
And yet we signed the GFA...Sandpit said:
Indeed they are - against the British.not_on_fire said:
Ireland is an EU member. Their interests areSandpit said:
But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?williamglenn said:
No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.Philip_Thompson said:The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.
aligned.
That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.0 -
Less than the average PBerrcs1000 said:
What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)another_richard said:
As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.williamglenn said:
Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
But it depends on the website.0 -
which political website would that be?TheScreamingEagles said:
When you start dreaming about a certain political website then you've been on it for too long.rcs1000 said:
What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)another_richard said:
As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.williamglenn said:
Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
PS - Have you seen the Radiohead news?
esthermcveyforleader.com?0 -
You are projecting your own views. In the 70s the British government was every bit as committed to ever closer union as the other members. The dialogue of the deaf only crept in much later on.another_richard said:
I do not think the EU was united against us ** but it was united in support of EverCloserUnion which was a policy which Britain didn't support and didn't understand.Gallowgate said:
My comment about the EU being united against us NOW is fact by the nature of them being on the other side of the negotiating table as a united front.another_richard said:
This is what you said at 8.17:Gallowgate said:
What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
" Now thanks
This is what I said at 8.31:
" Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.
Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "
I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.
Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.
I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
Your comment was referencing that prior to Brexit, the reason why Brexit happened was due to the EU being united against our interests. If I have misinterpreted that, I apologise.
And it was the unwillingness of British governments to understand this and their fantasies that 'Europe was coming our way' which in large part has led to the current situation.
** How much the strategy of EverCloserUnion was through opposition to 'the Anglo-Saxons' / a US dominated world I don't know.
Anyway no need for apologies or harsh words, its all a bit of fun0 -
Facts? Reality? How very (Rorarian? Roryist? Stewartite? Jacobite?) old-fashioned of you!Alistair said:
The upper rate started at £19,300 in 1988.Sandpit said:
The reasoning for £80k, is that that’s what the starting point for the 40% rate would be, if it had risen with inflation since it was introduced by Lawson in (IIRC) 1988.Philip_Thompson said:
And millions of more that it was in previous years too. But either way the statement was that millions of people pay it and millions of people do. Just shows how out of touch with reality Gallowgate is FFS.eek said:
Equally it's millions less than it used to be.Philip_Thompson said:
It is millions. That's a matter of fact.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/matt_gillow/status/1138492573234937859
“Millions of people” ffs. How out of touch is she?
Then again you're a lefty. Not particularly keen on being in touch with facts are you?
In 2016/17 anyone earning over £43,000 was paying higher rate tax at 40%
in 2019/20 you need to earn £50,000 (outside of Scotland) to be paying higher rate tax - an increase from £46350 in 2018/19)..
Using the bank of England inflation calculator that 19 grand would be £50,000 today.
Which the current higher rate tax band is.0 -
markrecklessforpm.comTheWhiteRabbit said:
which political website would that be?TheScreamingEagles said:
When you start dreaming about a certain political website then you've been on it for too long.rcs1000 said:
What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)another_richard said:
As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.williamglenn said:
Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."another_richard said:
I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.Gallowgate said:
It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.another_richard said:Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
PS - Have you seen the Radiohead news?
esthermcveyforleader.com?0
This discussion has been closed.