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Although the EU would be party to the (presumably amended) PD too.Pulpstar said:
Yes, this parliament can't bind the next one...kjohnw said:So basically once we are out a new PM could ditch the customs union and get a mandate through GE
Pulpstar said:
Once we're out the EU the Tories can change leader then go to the country. When we're out the landscape changes, the CU needs to be well agreed with the EU - it's an aspiration within the overall agreement. It is MUCH more Brexit friendly than something like Kyle-Wilson would be.Philip_Thompson said:Assuming CU gets through, the WA goes through right? Potentially still out by May 22 and May resigns and a new Tory leader is elected.
What's to stop the new Tory leader saying "actually we won't form a CU afterall" and discarding that part of the political declaration?0 -
It would be a lot like the Maastricht rebels backing the Labour amendment to adopt the social chapter to derail the whole thing.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assumes the CU “wins” tonight?
Is it really possible the government should implement a policy of profound economic and legal import that it actually disagrees with?
I can imagine very few Tories voting for the CU.0 -
Will they want payment for membership of the CU ? We've not agreed to that yet.Benpointer said:
Although the EU would be party to the (presumably amended) PD too.Pulpstar said:
Yes, this parliament can't bind the next one...kjohnw said:So basically once we are out a new PM could ditch the customs union and get a mandate through GE
Pulpstar said:
Once we're out the EU the Tories can change leader then go to the country. When we're out the landscape changes, the CU needs to be well agreed with the EU - it's an aspiration within the overall agreement. It is MUCH more Brexit friendly than something like Kyle-Wilson would be.Philip_Thompson said:Assuming CU gets through, the WA goes through right? Potentially still out by May 22 and May resigns and a new Tory leader is elected.
What's to stop the new Tory leader saying "actually we won't form a CU afterall" and discarding that part of the political declaration?0 -
Procedurally the key point is that it needs a long extension with time for further rethinking and might still end up subject to a confirmatory referendum with the status quo on the other side.Gardenwalker said:Let’s assumes the CU “wins” tonight?
Is it really possible the government should implement a policy of profound economic and legal import that it actually disagrees with?
I can imagine very few Tories voting for the CU.
If the government ignores the outcome we are into constitutional crisis, particularly if they get their MV3 vote on Friday and it falls again.0 -
Hilary jumping on the outrage bus. It isn't very convincing0
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Benn ? Now he and Ma Beckett really do want to stop Brexit.oxfordsimon said:Hilary jumping on the outrage bus. It isn't very convincing
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In a customs union will we get access to the 43 existing EU trade deals or is that only in the customs unionPulpstar said:
The Customs Union part will have a 2 year period before it is implemented as a permanent arrangement. Obviously we know nothing much can change in two years...CarlottaVance said:
His amendment is one of the few ones that doesn't involve unicorns - the only other ones are "Leave without a Deal" and "Revoke if No Deal happening".Pulpstar said:I reckon Ken Clarke might have saved Brexit this evening...
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Voting 7-7.30pm but the results aren't expected until 9pm earliestBenpointer said:Been diverted into living a life this afternoon, so catching up - what time do we expect the voting results?
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Until the EU article designed to reduce UK competitiveness comes in. Or the one designed to annoy the City of London.Slackbladder said:
The economy keeps working.kjohnw said:An someone tell me any benefits of a permanent customs union?
You know they will. They won't be able to resist.0 -
IanB2 said:
I could easily have found good reasons to vote against AV, like some PR supporters actually did. But I recognised that a step on the road was better than none. Sadly it made no difference, but the ERG are like those PR supporters on the wrong side of the AV referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
They voted against a crap deal not Brexit.CarlottaVance said:
Yep. If Brexit fails it will be because of the Brexiteers - what did they expect, voting against it?IanB2 said:
No. If the Tory party had untied behind championing the deal from the outset, it would have got through. The ERG wouldn't have given remainers cover to oppose it, and Labour leavers would have taken their chance to make their mark on history.Philip_Thompson said:
No they did not. Even if every Tory Brexiteer backed MV1 and MV2 it would still have lost.CarlottaVance said:
Yes, I was one of those. And I'm coming up to 8 years of being told that I voted to support first past the post. Still hurts. Good analogy.0 -
Am I right in thinking Malthouse B is, er, completey different to Malthouse A?
(Also did the Malthouse B really serve a sequel?)0 -
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I'm not sure that's true - some Tories on both sides of the argument have always held entrenched positions and I doubt they would have come on board with any withdrawal deal (I'm thinking of people like Mark Francois, Andrea Jenkyns, the TIG defectors).IanB2 said:
No. If the Tory party had untied behind championing the deal from the outset, it would have got through. The ERG wouldn't have given remainers cover to oppose it, and Labour leavers would have taken their chance to make their mark on history.Philip_Thompson said:
No they did not. Even if every Tory Brexiteer backed MV1 and MV2 it would still have lost.CarlottaVance said:
I think history will judge that Brexit was lost on 8 June 2017. The parliament elected on that date was never likely to have been able to carry through such a controversial and difficult process bearing in mind the closeness of the referendum result, the complete lack of a plan to leave, the drift of public opinion toward remain and the fact that most MPs think the whole idea of leaving is bonkers. Add that to the united and uncompromising stance of the EU 27 and the odds have always been against a satisfactory way out being found.
Now we are looking at a long extension which will end either in continued membership or a form of BINO which will be very close to membership.0 -
Well, those that voted Leave can hardly complain about what sort of leave they get, even those who has since come to believe it wasn't a very smart choice.Philip_Thompson said:
Of course. So one of them should happen and then we should hold Parliament to account to how happy we are with what they've come up with.Peter_the_Punter said:
But the ballot paper did not say anything about 'crap deal' and whether it was ok or not. So if you voted Leave, you were voting for any form of Leave - from BRINO to NO Deal and all stops in between.Philip_Thompson said:
They voted against a crap deal not Brexit.CarlottaVance said:
Yep. If Brexit fails it will be because of the Brexiteers - what did they expect, voting against it?IanB2 said:
No. If the Tory party had untied behind championing the deal from the outset, it would have got through. The ERG wouldn't have given remainers cover to oppose it, and Labour leavers would have taken their chance to make their mark on history.Philip_Thompson said:
No they did not. Even if every Tory Brexiteer backed MV1 and MV2 it would still have lost.CarlottaVance said:0 -
But the EU have made a big song and dance about the PD not being legally binding.Benpointer said:
Although the EU would be party to the (presumably amended) PD too.Pulpstar said:
Yes, this parliament can't bind the next one...kjohnw said:So basically once we are out a new PM could ditch the customs union and get a mandate through GE
Pulpstar said:
Once we're out the EU the Tories can change leader then go to the country. When we're out the landscape changes, the CU needs to be well agreed with the EU - it's an aspiration within the overall agreement. It is MUCH more Brexit friendly than something like Kyle-Wilson would be.Philip_Thompson said:Assuming CU gets through, the WA goes through right? Potentially still out by May 22 and May resigns and a new Tory leader is elected.
What's to stop the new Tory leader saying "actually we won't form a CU afterall" and discarding that part of the political declaration?0 -
Thanks!IanB2 said:
Voting 7-7.30pm but the results aren't expected until 9pm earliestBenpointer said:Been diverted into living a life this afternoon, so catching up - what time do we expect the voting results?
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If only there was a way we could keep a veto, eh?AnotherEngineer said:
Until the EU article designed to reduce UK competitiveness comes in. Or the one designed to annoy the City of London.Slackbladder said:
The economy keeps working.kjohnw said:An someone tell me any benefits of a permanent customs union?
You know they will. They won't be able to resist.0 -
Of course they can complain! That's a right every Englishman and woman has. People who don't vote have no reason to complain but those who do should.Peter_the_Punter said:
Well, those that voted Leave can hardly complain about what sort of leave they get, even those who has since come to believe it wasn't a very smart choice.Philip_Thompson said:
Of course. So one of them should happen and then we should hold Parliament to account to how happy we are with what they've come up with.Peter_the_Punter said:
But the ballot paper did not say anything about 'crap deal' and whether it was ok or not. So if you voted Leave, you were voting for any form of Leave - from BRINO to NO Deal and all stops in between.Philip_Thompson said:
They voted against a crap deal not Brexit.CarlottaVance said:
Yep. If Brexit fails it will be because of the Brexiteers - what did they expect, voting against it?IanB2 said:
No. If the Tory party had untied behind championing the deal from the outset, it would have got through. The ERG wouldn't have given remainers cover to oppose it, and Labour leavers would have taken their chance to make their mark on history.Philip_Thompson said:
No they did not. Even if every Tory Brexiteer backed MV1 and MV2 it would still have lost.CarlottaVance said:
They should follow through with their complaints if need be by voting accordingly at the next election. Call it taking back control.0 -
Malthouse B is unicorn managed no deal.Benpointer said:Am I right in thinking Malthouse B is, er, completey different to Malthouse A?
(Also did the Malthouse B really serve a sequel?)0 -
Fair point.Philip_Thompson said:
But the EU have made a big song and dance about the PD not being legally binding.Benpointer said:
Although the EU would be party to the (presumably amended) PD too.Pulpstar said:
Yes, this parliament can't bind the next one...kjohnw said:So basically once we are out a new PM could ditch the customs union and get a mandate through GE
Pulpstar said:
Once we're out the EU the Tories can change leader then go to the country. When we're out the landscape changes, the CU needs to be well agreed with the EU - it's an aspiration within the overall agreement. It is MUCH more Brexit friendly than something like Kyle-Wilson would be.Philip_Thompson said:Assuming CU gets through, the WA goes through right? Potentially still out by May 22 and May resigns and a new Tory leader is elected.
What's to stop the new Tory leader saying "actually we won't form a CU afterall" and discarding that part of the political declaration?
So glad Cameron decided to put this Europe issue to bed for once and all!0 -
Invent a Tardis and go back to before Lisbon/Nice were almost all our vetoes were given away?Benpointer said:
If only there was a way we could keep a veto, eh?AnotherEngineer said:
Until the EU article designed to reduce UK competitiveness comes in. Or the one designed to annoy the City of London.Slackbladder said:
The economy keeps working.kjohnw said:An someone tell me any benefits of a permanent customs union?
You know they will. They won't be able to resist.0 -
Fysh describing his amendment it is still not entirely clear, but sounds closer to 'no deal but' rather than anything to do with Malthouse.0
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That is only 'The' CU. Turkey does not have access to any of the EU's trade deals. However those countries that do have trade deals with the CU have tariff free access to Turkey's markets. It is a one way street.kjohnw said:
In a customs union will we get access to the 43 existing EU trade deals or is that only in the customs unionPulpstar said:
The Customs Union part will have a 2 year period before it is implemented as a permanent arrangement. Obviously we know nothing much can change in two years...CarlottaVance said:
His amendment is one of the few ones that doesn't involve unicorns - the only other ones are "Leave without a Deal" and "Revoke if No Deal happening".Pulpstar said:I reckon Ken Clarke might have saved Brexit this evening...
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Surprised the Dark Lord Bercow let it through then.williamglenn said:
Malthouse B is unicorn managed no deal.Benpointer said:Am I right in thinking Malthouse B is, er, completey different to Malthouse A?
(Also did the Malthouse B really serve a sequel?)0 -
NEW THREAD0
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Lol! And what about the poor sods who voted Remain? We lost, so we don't count. Just ignore is now, yes?Philip_Thompson said:
Of course they can complain! That's a right every Englishman and woman has. People who don't vote have no reason to complain but those who do should.Peter_the_Punter said:
Well, those that voted Leave can hardly complain about what sort of leave they get, even those who has since come to believe it wasn't a very smart choice.Philip_Thompson said:
Of course. So one of them should happen and then we should hold Parliament to account to how happy we are with what they've come up with.Peter_the_Punter said:
But the ballot paper did not say anything about 'crap deal' and whether it was ok or not. So if you voted Leave, you were voting for any form of Leave - from BRINO to NO Deal and all stops in between.Philip_Thompson said:
They voted against a crap deal not Brexit.CarlottaVance said:
Yep. If Brexit fails it will be because of the Brexiteers - what did they expect, voting against it?IanB2 said:
No. If the Tory party had untied behind championing the deal from the outset, it would have got through. The ERG wouldn't have given remainers cover to oppose it, and Labour leavers would have taken their chance to make their mark on history.Philip_Thompson said:
No they did not. Even if every Tory Brexiteer backed MV1 and MV2 it would still have lost.CarlottaVance said:
They should follow through with their complaints if need be by voting accordingly at the next election. Call it taking back control.0 -
This thread is, like, so OLD...... Eurgh!0
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But my premise "if..." was that the ERG actually voted for Brexit. So your first para is off topic.anothernick said:
I'm not sure that's true - some Tories on both sides of the argument have always held entrenched positions and I doubt they would have come on board with any withdrawal deal (I'm thinking of people like Mark Francois, Andrea Jenkyns, the TIG defectors).IanB2 said:
No. If the Tory party had untied behind championing the deal from the outset, it would have got through. The ERG wouldn't have given remainers cover to oppose it, and Labour leavers would have taken their chance to make their mark on history.Philip_Thompson said:
No they did not. Even if every Tory Brexiteer backed MV1 and MV2 it would still have lost.CarlottaVance said:
I think history will judge that Brexit was lost on 8 June 2017. The parliament elected on that date was never likely to have been able to carry through such a controversial and difficult process bearing in mind the closeness of the referendum result, the complete lack of a plan to leave, the drift of public opinion toward remain and the fact that most MPs think the whole idea of leaving is bonkers. Add that to the united and uncompromising stance of the EU 27 and the odds have always been against a satisfactory way out being found.
Now we are looking at a long extension which will end either in continued membership or a form of BINO which will be very close to membership.
Who is to say that a small Tory majority wouldn't have delivered into parliament even more nutty Tories determined to chuck away the bird in hand?0 -
Well it is good to see that the use of ridiculous hyperbole is not limited to the likes of Crispin Blunt et al.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Leavers would prefer Roy Hodgson.Benpointer said:
He showed he could get us out of Europe within days of the referendum.
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This seems a bit odd for a government account to tweet.
https://twitter.com/dexeugov/status/1110942385775755264?s=210 -
This thread is now addressing the '22
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NEW THREAD
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We could for the moment, but the EU are planning to remove vetoes on tax law.Benpointer said:
If only there was a way we could keep a veto, eh?AnotherEngineer said:
Until the EU article designed to reduce UK competitiveness comes in. Or the one designed to annoy the City of London.Slackbladder said:
The economy keeps working.kjohnw said:An someone tell me any benefits of a permanent customs union?
You know they will. They won't be able to resist.
I agree though - there is really only one choice - Remain, or Leave (with or without a FTA). The stuff in the middle is pointless.
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I believe the fashionable phrase is "Clean Global Managed Executive Malthouse B. With Bluetooth."williamglenn said:
Malthouse B is unicorn managed no deal.Benpointer said:Am I right in thinking Malthouse B is, er, completey different to Malthouse A?
(Also did the Malthouse B really serve a sequel?)0 -
OGH on 5Live0
This discussion has been closed.