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Thanks, coolDanny565 said:
That's literally what he just said he'll be supporting (the Peter Kyle amendment)...edmundintokyo said:
Yup, there's no majority for a PV, the potential majority is for *TMay's deal, subject to a PV* which is hardly anybody's first choice. I don't think it's clear whether Corbyn would go for that, and to be sure of passing it still needs support, or at least a lack of active opposition, from TMay.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.0 -
Doesn't he have an even lower rating than that?ydoethur said:
Blair is at least intelligent, coherent and engages with his opponents. He's also duplicitous, deceitful and manipulative, but so is Corbyn.TheJezziah said:
Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?
Did he ever have an approval rating of -47? Genuine question (where's Justin when you need him)?
I was under the impression he wasn't widely liked.
Most people who could be convinced by him are already on side anyway. The Blair from '97 would be an asset I'm sure but current Blair is best kept well away from it.0 -
Well in June 2016 my spell as guest editor ended three days before the referendum.ydoethur said:
Six months.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike's just informed me he's taking a holiday in September.
How long did the electoral commission say they needed to run a new referendum?
You're screwed.
But come October we all will be anyway.
I still have nightmares.0 -
If I were Labour I'd be quoting David Davis non stop.0
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Normally I would agree with you re Blair, but I find it quite difficult to visualise a situation where Corbyn would be more of an asset than he was. (And I never voted Labour under Blair, although I have done since.)TheJezziah said:
Doesn't he have an even lower rating than that?ydoethur said:
Blair is at least intelligent, coherent and engages with his opponents. He's also duplicitous, deceitful and manipulative, but so is Corbyn.TheJezziah said:
Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?
Did he ever have an approval rating of -47? Genuine question (where's Justin when you need him)?
I was under the impression he wasn't widely liked.
Most people who could be convinced by him are already on side anyway. The Blair from '97 would be an asset I'm sure but current Blair is best kept well away from it.0 -
Why would any Leave constituency Labour MP vote for May's deal when it can be left to their constituents to vote for it later in the second referendum that was agreed 30 minutes earlier.nico67 said:As a Labour supporter they just saved my vote but a second EU ref isn’t happening . The likely outcome now is the Maybot drones on about deal or another EU ref to the ERG who might finally accept they need to quit whilst they’re winning or take their chances with a second vote .
Mays deal passes with the help of Labour rebels and that’s that .0 -
Mainly for turnout reasons I'd argue, the people Corbyn's appeals to are mostly remain anyway, though he can win some round by making sure they turnout for it.ydoethur said:
Normally I would agree with you re Blair, but I find it quite difficult to visualise a situation where Corbyn would be more of an asset than he was. (And I never voted Labour under Blair, although I have done since.)TheJezziah said:
Doesn't he have an even lower rating than that?ydoethur said:
Blair is at least intelligent, coherent and engages with his opponents. He's also duplicitous, deceitful and manipulative, but so is Corbyn.TheJezziah said:
Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?
Did he ever have an approval rating of -47? Genuine question (where's Justin when you need him)?
I was under the impression he wasn't widely liked.
Most people who could be convinced by him are already on side anyway. The Blair from '97 would be an asset I'm sure but current Blair is best kept well away from it.
Although if we do have another referendum, far from certain, you'd imagine those with any inclination towards remain have been given every reason to turnout rather than just skip it.0 -
I hesitate to challenge an historian but didn't Henry VII seize the throne himself and was thus his own (and presumably his supporters') first choice?ydoethur said:
Worked for Henry VII. Nobody's first choice, everybody's second.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, there's no majority for a PV, the potential majority is for *TMay's deal, subject to a PV* which is hardly anybody's first choice.I don't think it's clear whether Corbyn would go for that, and to be sure of passing it still needs support, or at least a lack of active opposition, from TMay.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.
The difficulty with that scenario is timing. Given the complexities, would the EU give as a long enough extension for it? I'm pretty doubtful about it.0 -
Loooong way to go yet on that front.Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
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So what % is remain getting in PV Lord Screaming Eagle? It would need to be 60%?TheScreamingEagles said:This is so exciting.
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This is a big defeat for Len McCluskey, Seamus Milne and the other Morning Star Brexiteers. Remember what Champagne Len was saying about a referendum just a few days ago? What could possibly have led to such a turnaround?0
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A couple there not enjoying the spicy sauce.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
What are they voting on at Nando's?TheScreamingEagles said:
In all honesty, given their coming together was very much a marriage of convenience, I wonder how well they get along on a personal level.0 -
Don't know.dots said:
So what % is remain getting in PV Lord Screaming Eagle? It would need to be 60%?TheScreamingEagles said:This is so exciting.
Too many variables
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Maybe moderate Tories can finally vote for this against TMay's opposition:
1) Parliament passes a ban on No Deal - I think the votes for this are there already
2) EU says the minimum extension will be 3 years
3) Say, "I don't like this second referendum business but it's the quickest way to get Brexit done"0 -
I see that Soubry’s gone for salad and chips, Heidi for chicken pieces, Umanna for burger and chips, and Gapes for seven capons and a small child.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
You can just see Dr Woolaston shaking her head disapprovingly at all the calories...TheScreamingEagles said:
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A second referendum stems the likelihood of immediate further defections, it doesn't solve Corbyn's longer term problems.TheJezziah said:Labour back another referendum and the move will stuff the tiggers...
Santa delivering my christmas presents a bit early this year.0 -
https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1100092265626783746
I have reservations regarding what this does for Labour's electoral chances but destroying the tiggers and staying in the EU are on the 'would like to happen' list so overall happy with the direction.
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Labour Leavers should leave and form their own group!williamglenn said:
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If they want it then yes. Yorkshire has a larger population than the 7 smallest EU countries. Of course the difference is they have never shown any interest in independence.TheJezziah said:
Does this go for say Yorkshire and say Cornwall as well?Richard_Tyndall said:
Oh I agree. But then I have long campaigned for Scottish Independence as well. As I have said on here before I find it logically incoherent to argue for British Independence from the EU on democracy and accountability terms but then to deny those are valid arguments for Scottish Independence.El_Capitano said:
As a footnote to this, if you follow this logic, the "overwhelming majority" does of course exclude the SNP: they voted against holding the referendum, and given its advisory status, there's no reason they should be held to implementing its result.Richard_Tyndall said:
MPs abide by the will of the people. There is a deal on the table. It may not be perfect but it is a deal that fulfils the instruction of the referendum. Alternatively leave without a deal. They have always been the two legitimate choices. What they cannot do is claim they agree with the referendum result (as the overwhelming majority of them did) but then refuse to enact either a deal or No Deal.eek said:
How do you get the previous vote enacted? I'm no closer to seeing a means of leaving now than I was 6 months ago...Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
Not making a Brexit argument here but where do you draw the line, how small is small enough to meet the requirements to be democratic and accountable?
I understand the EU is a little different to the UK but would you say the UK isn't democratic and accountable in a way that smaller divisions would be, like say Yorkshire or Scotland, though they still contain millions of people so I can't see a massive difference in democratic terms.
They strike me as democratic either way, the people of Yorkshire are not disenfranchised IMO.0 -
Solve the problems you can fix I guess. His MPs are going nowhere if they get to campaign for remain, even if they will be unhappy about plenty else.OllyT said:
A second referendum stems the likelihood of immediate further defections, it doesn't solve Corbyn's longer term problems.TheJezziah said:Labour back another referendum and the move will stuff the tiggers...
Santa delivering my christmas presents a bit early this year.0 -
You get some stick on here at times Richard, but you have been one of the most consistent and pramatic Leavers. It's a shame that there aren't more people like you on the Leave side.Richard_Tyndall said:Its not even that it is half a loaf. It is pretty much 9/10ths of a loaf. There are a few bits I don't like about it but it meets pretty much all of the requirements set out by the Leave campaigners of any stripe prior to the referendum. This should be the easiest compromise in history for any Leaver who spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it.
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He's turned Tory?!Gardenwalker said:
and Gapes for seven capons and a small child.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I'm massively envious of Heidi Allen in that picture though, ngl0
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Paracetamol is good for headaches but eventually I figure he'll just lose his hearing and then right wing Labour MPs whining at him won't be an issue.OllyT said:
A second referendum stems the likelihood of immediate further defections, it doesn't solve Corbyn's longer term problems.TheJezziah said:Labour back another referendum and the move will stuff the tiggers...
Santa delivering my christmas presents a bit early this year.0 -
The gammontariat will disapprove.TheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/willmenaker/status/10982708442399703040 -
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:0 -
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Test
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The short answer is No.Benpointer said:
I hesitate to challenge an historian but didn't Henry VII seize the throne himself and was thus his own (and presumably his supporters') first choice?ydoethur said:Worked for Henry VII. Nobody's first choice, everybody's second.
The longer answer is to run through alternatives. The Lancastrian choice was Henry VI, his son Edward of Westminster and his cousin the Duke of Somerset. They all suffered from the minor drawback of being dead. Didn't stop their diehard supporters, e.g. Oxford and Pembroke, who rallied round Henry's nephew.
Then you have the Yorkists. Their King was Edward IV, who died young in 1483 causing a succession crisis. Their first choice was Edward V. He vanished and was presumed murdered. The next choice was his cousin, Edward, Earl of Warwick. He suffered from a number of drawbacks. He was young, rumoured to be mentally unstable, his father had been executed for treason, his lands had been seized and he was a prisoner. That didn't make him a popular choice. The next choice, and not an altogether unpopular choice, was their uncle Richard. The small matter of him being a usurper, murderer, thief and rumoured infanticide, told against him, although he did seize the throne and hold it for 26 months. Absent all these, the next possible candidate was Edward V's oldest sister Elizabeth. She was a woman. Vaginas were for producing babies not sitting on thrones.
That didn't leave many candidates. It was the genius of Henry (and his mother Margaret) to persuade people that their preferred candidate being unavailable because of X reason, he was a plausible alternative. To be sure, it helped considerably that he offered to marry Elizabeth. But it was this ability to be the second choice of a wide range that was the clincher. It drew in the southern gentry who hated Richard and wanted Edward V, the northern barons who were suspicious of him and wanted Warwick whom they hoped to manipulate, the dowager queen who wanted Elizabeth, and the supporters of Henry VI who wanted a Lancastrian on the throne. They were the ones who supported him in his battle (along with the regent of France who was just out to cause trouble).
I was in fact quoting Michael Hicks, who said Henry VII was 'a king elected by proportional representation. He was the first choice of very few people, but gained enough transfers from other candidates to become king when they were ruled out.' (He obviously means STV not PR, but I'm not responsible for his misunderstanding of constitutional theory.)0 -
PassedSunil_Prasannan said:Test
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And yet no one will for for more TAG to the remainers' TIG idea, for shame.GIN1138 said:0 -
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
Jesus "Tingependent" is a clunky shit of a word.TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1100092265626783746
I have reservations regarding what this does for Labour's electoral chances but destroying the tiggers and staying in the EU are on the 'would like to happen' list so overall happy with the direction.0 -
She seems to have ordered a plate of chips. A great source of vitamin F.GIN1138 said:
You can just see Dr Woolaston shaking her head disapprovingly at all the calories...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Flint and Mann were never going to be in favour, but if Lucy Powell is voting against a 2nd vote, I'd say it won't pass.GIN1138 said:0 -
One variable is any sort of narrow leave win seals the deal for hard brexit. Doesn’t it?TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know.dots said:
So what % is remain getting in PV Lord Screaming Eagle? It would need to be 60%?TheScreamingEagles said:This is so exciting.
Too many variables0 -
Soubs doesn't look too happy.Theuniondivvie said:
The gammontariat will disapprove.TheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/willmenaker/status/10982708442399703040 -
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
I've never eaten at Nando's.0
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Doesn't the DUP have to fold too for May's Deal to squeak through?kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
Umunna seems to be learning back away from her, perhaps she's just farted and is feeling awkward about it.rottenborough said:
Soubs doesn't look too happy.Theuniondivvie said:
The gammontariat will disapprove.TheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/willmenaker/status/1098270844239970304
PB, commentary at its finest.0 -
There are people desperate to vote Labour in Scotland. They are unionists. They want to stay in the EU. They hate Corbyn and the SNP.TheScreamingEagles said:
You think?Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
Let's call them the JK Rowling types.
Tonight Corbyn has given them enough to work with to stop them contemplating Scottish Independence as a way of staying in the EU.0 -
Thank you. Very enlightening.ydoethur said:
The short answer is No.Benpointer said:
I hesitate to challenge an historian but didn't Henry VII seize the throne himself and was thus his own (and presumably his supporters') first choice?ydoethur said:Worked for Henry VII. Nobody's first choice, everybody's second.
The longer answer is to run through alternatives. The Lancastrian choice was Henry VI, his son Edward of Westminster and his cousin the Duke of Somerset. They all suffered from the minor drawback of being dead. Didn't stop their diehard supporters, e.g. Oxford and Pembroke, who rallied round Henry's nephew.
Then you have the Yorkists. Their King was Edward IV, who died young in 1483 causing a succession crisis. Their first choice was Edward V. He vanished and was presumed murdered. The next choice was his cousin, Edward, Earl of Warwick. He suffered from a number of drawbacks. He was young, rumoured to be mentally unstable, his father had been executed for treason, his lands had been seized and he was a prisoner. That didn't make him a popular choice. The next choice, and not an altogether unpopular choice, was their uncle Richard. The small matter of him being a usurper, murderer, thief and rumoured infanticide, told against him, although he did seize the throne and hold it for 26 months. Absent all these, the next possible candidate was Edward V's oldest sister Elizabeth. She was a woman. Vaginas were for producing babies not sitting on thrones.
That didn't leave many candidates. It was the genius of Henry (and his mother Margaret) to persuade people that their preferred candidate being unavailable because of X reason, he was a plausible alternative. To be sure, it helped considerably that he offered to marry Elizabeth. But it was this ability to be the second choice of a wide range that was the clincher. It drew in the southern gentry who hated Richard and wanted Edward V, the northern barons who were suspicious of him and wanted Warwick whom they hoped to manipulate, the dowager queen who wanted Elizabeth, and the supporters of Henry VI who wanted a Lancastrian on the throne. They were the ones who supported him in his battle (along with the regent of France who was just out to cause trouble).
I was in fact quoting Michael Hicks, who said Henry VII was 'a king elected by proportional representation. He was the first choice of very few people, but gained enough transfers from other candidates to become king when they were ruled out.' (He obviously means STV not PR, but I'm not responsible for his misunderstanding of constitutional theory.)
I note from Wikipedea Henry VII was born in Pembroke Castle; was he the only Welshman to become King of England?0 -
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
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I would refer you to tonight comments by labour mps in leave seats with 25 already saying they will vote againstdots said:
Keep saying it Big G if it makes you feel better. But you are wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
You are wrong to take Labour leave votes for granted as not going to Labour in a general election.
You may not even be right that it was Labour votes that made key difference in those areas called leave constituency’s. 2017 GE hints at such. The reason is, in 2016, up and down the country, polling stations didn't get all the usual faces, but quite a lot of faces who don't go in there very often, if at all. The rationale was voting leave because remain belonged to the political establishment these voters think never listens to them and has hollowed out their communities with globalisation and austerity. Not a rationale that suggests they rush into arms of long standing conservative government.
That’s my reasoning why your statement is wrong. Where’s your reasoning supporting your statement.0 -
Thanks.Alistair said:
There are people desperate to vote Labour in Scotland. They are unionists. They want to stay in the EU. They hate Corbyn and the SNP.TheScreamingEagles said:
You think?Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
Let's call them the JK Rowling types.
Tonight Corbyn has given them enough to work with to stop them contemplating Scottish Independence as a way of staying in the EU.0 -
She's missing Gin O' Clock so who can blame her...rottenborough said:
Soubs doesn't look too happy.Theuniondivvie said:
The gammontariat will disapprove.TheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/willmenaker/status/1098270844239970304 0 -
Under the Peter Kyle amendment (which Corbyn is now seemingly supporting), May's deal automatically gets ratified after a Leave vote in another referendum.Peter_the_Punter said:
Doesn't the DUP have to fold too for May's Deal to squeak through?kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
Of course, there's also the issue that "May's deal" is only really for a transition period, not for the permanent solution, so we'd end up right back here a couple of years later even in that scenario...0 -
Glad you liked itBenpointer said:Thank you. Very enlightening.
I note from Wikipedea Henry VII was born in Pembroke Castle; was he the only Welshman to become King of England?
On your second point: it depends on what you mean by 'Welsh'. If you mean 'Welsh-speaker,' yes he probably was. But both Edward II (Caernarfon) and Henry V (Monmouth) were born in Wales.0 -
Your original post mentioned democracy and accountability though, not trying to catch you out I am just wondering if you believe that any independence movement should be supported on the basis of democracy and accountability or is there some cut off somewhere?Richard_Tyndall said:
If they want it then yes. Yorkshire has a larger population than the 7 smallest EU countries. Of course the difference is they have never shown any interest in independence.TheJezziah said:
Does this go for say Yorkshire and say Cornwall as well?Richard_Tyndall said:El_Capitano said:Richard_Tyndall said:eek said:Richard_Tyndall said:Recidivist said:
Not making a Brexit argument here but where do you draw the line, how small is small enough to meet the requirements to be democratic and accountable?
I understand the EU is a little different to the UK but would you say the UK isn't democratic and accountable in a way that smaller divisions would be, like say Yorkshire or Scotland, though they still contain millions of people so I can't see a massive difference in democratic terms.
They strike me as democratic either way, the people of Yorkshire are not disenfranchised IMO.
If Scotland became independent but then some people in the Highlands started campaigning for independence would you argue that is the right thing on the basis of democracy and accountability even if, like with Scottish independence (in the ref) it is not the majority opinion?
I agree on the general idea of self determination so if Scottish people decided to leave they should be allowed to (or Yorkshire etc.) but that is different from saying you campaign for it to happen (which I took to mean advance your opinion Scotland should be independent rather than leafleting during the referendum) I agree Britain should have a Conservative government if it votes for it but I certainly don't campaign for it, grudging acceptance at best 0 -
I love it. Don't get there much thesedays as I need to watch the calories, but I always have bottles of their sauce.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I don't see how it is possible without them, and them doing so gives cause for many Tories to do the same.Peter_the_Punter said:
Doesn't the DUP have to fold too for May's Deal to squeak through?kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
And as we all know, the DUP love to fold.
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I think a major variable is a boycott of the referendum by Leavers.dots said:
One variable is any sort of narrow leave win seals the deal for hard brexit. Doesn’t it?TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know.dots said:
So what % is remain getting in PV Lord Screaming Eagle? It would need to be 60%?TheScreamingEagles said:This is so exciting.
Too many variables0 -
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.0 -
Speaking of JK, why has she seemingly disappeared from Twitter?Alistair said:
There are people desperate to vote Labour in Scotland. They are unionists. They want to stay in the EU. They hate Corbyn and the SNP.TheScreamingEagles said:
You think?Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
Let's call them the JK Rowling types.
Tonight Corbyn has given them enough to work with to stop them contemplating Scottish Independence as a way of staying in the EU.
I would've thought she would've been in her element this past week.0 -
That's one can kicking I can support though, to get it out of news cycle for a bit at least.Danny565 said:
Under the Peter Kyle amendment (which Corbyn is now seemingly supporting), May's deal automatically gets ratified after a Leave vote in another referendum.Peter_the_Punter said:
Doesn't the DUP have to fold too for May's Deal to squeak through?kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
Of course, there's also the issue that "May's deal" is only really for a transition period, not for the permanent solution, so we'd end up right back here a couple of years later even in that scenario...0 -
Presently, I still can’t see the DUP voting for May’s Deal.
The smarter DUPers must know that Brexit is a dead end and would perhaps welcome a PV as a potential escape route.
Not that they would vote for it, but they might abstain.0 -
Since Corbyn is only accepting a 2nd referendum for May's deal, but not for "Labour Brexit", the Tories could really wind the Remainers up by passing "Labour Brexit".rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
So you're not ordering the Wetherspoons Hawaiian then I'm guessing?TheScreamingEagles said:
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.0 -
Not sure it can be classed as winding up if it sees remaining in the customs union.No_Offence_Alan said:
Since Corbyn is only accepting a 2nd referendum for May's deal, but not for "Labour Brexit", the Tories could really wind the Remainers up by passing "Labour Brexit".rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
Again, I fear the logic is flawed...Gardenwalker said:The smarter DUPers
0 -
Ah balls, Mark Hollis of Talk Talk has died0
-
Are the DUP that bothered by a 2nd Referendum though? So long as nothing is done to introduce barrieirs between NI and Britain, I'd have thought they'd settle* for Remain in the end if that's how it panned out.kle4 said:
I love it. Don't get there much thesedays as I need to watch the calories, but I always have bottles of their sauce.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I don't see how it is possible without them, and them doing so gives cause for many Tories to do the same.Peter_the_Punter said:
Doesn't the DUP have to fold too for May's Deal to squeak through?kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
And as we all know, the DUP love to fold.
(*Settle for it, not campaign for it though)0 -
They won't vote for it, but they ain't voting for May's deal. For them, hard brexit or remaining really are both better options.Gardenwalker said:Presently, I still can’t see the DUP voting for May’s Deal.
The smarter DUPers must know that Brexit is a dead end and would perhaps welcome a PV as a potential escape route.
Not that they would vote for it, but they might abstain.0 -
I think they would too, but in practice I don't think it means something other than them being as bloody minded as possible, as now.Benpointer said:
Are the DUP that bothered by a 2nd Referendum though? So long as nothing is done to introduce barrieirs between NI and Britain, I'd have thought they'd settle* for Remain in the end if that's how it panned out.kle4 said:
I love it. Don't get there much thesedays as I need to watch the calories, but I always have bottles of their sauce.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I don't see how it is possible without them, and them doing so gives cause for many Tories to do the same.Peter_the_Punter said:
Doesn't the DUP have to fold too for May's Deal to squeak through?kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
And as we all know, the DUP love to fold.
(*Settle for it, not campaign for it though)0 -
Haven't they burnt their 'I could never be in the same party as these ghastly antisemites let alone vote for them' boats? Though of course one can never say never when it comes to the Rowlingites.Alistair said:
There are people desperate to vote Labour in Scotland. They are unionists. They want to stay in the EU. They hate Corbyn and the SNP.TheScreamingEagles said:
You think?Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
Let's call them the JK Rowling types.
Tonight Corbyn has given them enough to work with to stop them contemplating Scottish Independence as a way of staying in the EU.0 -
I think it would wind up a lot of the People's Vote mob if the second referendum turned out to be May's deal vs No deal...TheScreamingEagles said:
Not sure it can be classed as winding up if it sees remaining in the customs union.No_Offence_Alan said:
Since Corbyn is only accepting a 2nd referendum for May's deal, but not for "Labour Brexit", the Tories could really wind the Remainers up by passing "Labour Brexit".rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
I used to quite like Wetherspoons. The beer is generally good and cheap. The food is quite OK.TheScreamingEagles said:
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.
Wetherspoon himself is an obnoxious turd, so I spend my money elsewhere nowadays.0 -
To accept May's Deal is to accept Brexit has failed. They are reluctant to do that. Ultimately, I think they can rationalise their vote by pretending they can tear up the Deal once it's passed. We vote for the Deal, they will tell themselves, but we don't support it.kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
I don't think they are necessarily extremist, by the way. If you vote for something you want it to have a purpose.0 -
With so much of parliament wanting to remain, if not as many will admit it, there's no way remain does not get on the ballot.kyf_100 said:
I think it would wind up a lot of the People's Vote mob if the second referendum turned out to be May's deal vs No deal...TheScreamingEagles said:
Not sure it can be classed as winding up if it sees remaining in the customs union.No_Offence_Alan said:
Since Corbyn is only accepting a 2nd referendum for May's deal, but not for "Labour Brexit", the Tories could really wind the Remainers up by passing "Labour Brexit".rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
Just trying to work out how many Tories you need to pass Deal+PV.
Start with the last confidence vote for the govt vs opposition baseline: 325 to 306, maj 19 so you have to swing 10.
25 Lab rebels go to the dark side (see upthread), 3 Tories go TIG, now it's 32. Add a few misc small party votes and maybe 35?
Seems like it might be a doable number if the alternatives are the No Deal Kaiju and endless extensions, but would their consituency associations string them up from a lamppost?0 -
It would, but literally nobody is arguing for that except Brexity trolls on the interwebs.kyf_100 said:
I think it would wind up a lot of the People's Vote mob if the second referendum turned out to be May's deal vs No deal...TheScreamingEagles said:
Not sure it can be classed as winding up if it sees remaining in the customs union.No_Offence_Alan said:
Since Corbyn is only accepting a 2nd referendum for May's deal, but not for "Labour Brexit", the Tories could really wind the Remainers up by passing "Labour Brexit".rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.0 -
Same reason we got rid of our Dyson (that and the fact that it was a bit old and crap).Foxy said:
I used to quite like Wetherspoons. The beer is generally good and cheap. The food is quite OK.TheScreamingEagles said:
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.
Wetherspoon himself is an obnoxious turd, so I spend my money elsewhere nowadays.0 -
You taking the 25 for granted? That’s the same mistake Mr Big. 😁Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would refer you to tonight comments by labour mps in leave seats with 25 already saying they will vote againstdots said:
Keep saying it Big G if it makes you feel better. But you are wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
You are wrong to take Labour leave votes for granted as not going to Labour in a general election.
You may not even be right that it was Labour votes that made key difference in those areas called leave constituency’s. 2017 GE hints at such. The reason is, in 2016, up and down the country, polling stations didn't get all the usual faces, but quite a lot of faces who don't go in there very often, if at all. The rationale was voting leave because remain belonged to the political establishment these voters think never listens to them and has hollowed out their communities with globalisation and austerity. Not a rationale that suggests they rush into arms of long standing conservative government.
That’s my reasoning why your statement is wrong. Where’s your reasoning supporting your statement.
Those that campaigned for remain and found their constituency go leave no longer have to play the game. They have been freed from that game. I predict labour MPs voting against will not only be in single figures, but less than 5.0 -
They will - Field, Austin, Mann has one foot out the door, Hoey will go when she's deselected. Hopkins is Labour Leave but suspended at the moment anyway. Stringer must be a risk.GIN1138 said:0 -
edmundintokyo said:
Just trying to work out how many Tories you need to pass Deal+PV.
Start with the last confidence vote for the govt vs opposition baseline: 325 to 306, maj 19 so you have to swing 10.
25 Lab rebels go to the dark side (see upthread), 3 Tories go TIG, now it's 32. Add a few misc small party votes and maybe 35?
Seems like it might be a doable number if the alternatives are the No Deal Kaiju and endless extensions, but would their consituency associations string them up from a lamppost?
They could claim they were voting for May's Deal - it is after all the only way it's going to get through.0 -
I've lost the plot - when is this vote going to be held, is it this week?dots said:
You taking the 25 for granted? That’s the same mistake Mr Big. 😁Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would refer you to tonight comments by labour mps in leave seats with 25 already saying they will vote againstdots said:
Keep saying it Big G if it makes you feel better. But you are wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
You are wrong to take Labour leave votes for granted as not going to Labour in a general election.
You may not even be right that it was Labour votes that made key difference in those areas called leave constituency’s. 2017 GE hints at such. The reason is, in 2016, up and down the country, polling stations didn't get all the usual faces, but quite a lot of faces who don't go in there very often, if at all. The rationale was voting leave because remain belonged to the political establishment these voters think never listens to them and has hollowed out their communities with globalisation and austerity. Not a rationale that suggests they rush into arms of long standing conservative government.
That’s my reasoning why your statement is wrong. Where’s your reasoning supporting your statement.
Those that campaigned for remain and found their constituency go leave no longer have to play the game. They have been freed from that game. I predict labour MPs voting against will not only be in single figures, but less than 5.0 -
An excellent proxy for the Brexit caseFoxy said:
I used to quite like Wetherspoons. The beer is generally good and cheap. The food is quite OK.TheScreamingEagles said:
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.
Wetherspoon himself is an obnoxious turd, so I spend my money elsewhere nowadays.0 -
-
Apparently Momentum are being mobilized in those leave areas !Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would refer you to tonight comments by labour mps in leave seats with 25 already saying they will vote againstdots said:
Keep saying it Big G if it makes you feel better. But you are wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
You are wrong to take Labour leave votes for granted as not going to Labour in a general election.
You may not even be right that it was Labour votes that made key difference in those areas called leave constituency’s. 2017 GE hints at such. The reason is, in 2016, up and down the country, polling stations didn't get all the usual faces, but quite a lot of faces who don't go in there very often, if at all. The rationale was voting leave because remain belonged to the political establishment these voters think never listens to them and has hollowed out their communities with globalisation and austerity. Not a rationale that suggests they rush into arms of long standing conservative government.
That’s my reasoning why your statement is wrong. Where’s your reasoning supporting your statement.0 -
Right and like I say if you've passed the anti-kaiju motion first, they can say they're voting to stop dicking around and actually get brexit done.Benpointer said:edmundintokyo said:Just trying to work out how many Tories you need to pass Deal+PV.
Start with the last confidence vote for the govt vs opposition baseline: 325 to 306, maj 19 so you have to swing 10.
25 Lab rebels go to the dark side (see upthread), 3 Tories go TIG, now it's 32. Add a few misc small party votes and maybe 35?
Seems like it might be a doable number if the alternatives are the No Deal Kaiju and endless extensions, but would their consituency associations string them up from a lamppost?
They could claim they were voting for May's Deal - it is after all the only way it's going to get through.0 -
We know some postured that it was.kle4 said:
Yes, but we know plenty of ERGers think the deal is worse than Leaving, so the risk of not getting Brexit is not as strong a motivator as it could be.rottenborough said:
ERG could fold now, and accept there's a real risk of not leaving if they don't sign May's deal (and then revisit it all later, as Gove keeps saying).kle4 said:
Corbyn's best outcome was the deal passed thanks to Labour rebels who he could disavow. He cannot have that, so I guess not being able to get a referendum thanks to Labour rebels would be the next best thing.williamglenn said:
This is precisely what Jezza wants. Tory Brexit with none of his fingerprints anywhere near it.
Whether they would actually vote that way when it mattered might be rather different.0 -
https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1100089073367240704
But, but, but... hard left! communist! marxist!
This can't be right, we were told so reliably by so many people on the right exactly what Corbyn wanted, many on the left disagreed but there was an understanding that only those on the right really know what the left will do...
I'm still convinced Starmer tricked him.0 -
On the other hand I do still use Hargreaves Lansdowne for my ISA.Benpointer said:
Same reason we got rid of our Dyson (that and the fact that it was a bit old and crap).Foxy said:
I used to quite like Wetherspoons. The beer is generally good and cheap. The food is quite OK.TheScreamingEagles said:
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.
Wetherspoon himself is an obnoxious turd, so I spend my money elsewhere nowadays.
0 -
He did a fairly effective job of seizing a firm grasp on the throne after he became king, though.ydoethur said:
The short answer is No.Benpointer said:
I hesitate to challenge an historian but didn't Henry VII seize the throne himself and was thus his own (and presumably his supporters') first choice?ydoethur said:Worked for Henry VII. Nobody's first choice, everybody's second.
The longer answer is to run through alternatives. The Lancastrian choice was Henry VI, his son Edward of Westminster and his cousin the Duke of Somerset. They all suffered from the minor drawback of being dead. Didn't stop their diehard supporters, e.g. Oxford and Pembroke, who rallied round Henry's nephew.
Then you have the Yorkists. Their King was Edward IV, who died young in 1483 causing a succession crisis. Their first choice was Edward V. He vanished and was presumed murdered. The next choice was his cousin, Edward, Earl of Warwick. He suffered from a number of drawbacks. He was young, rumoured to be mentally unstable, his father had been executed for treason, his lands had been seized and he was a prisoner. That didn't make him a popular choice. The next choice, and not an altogether unpopular choice, was their uncle Richard. The small matter of him being a usurper, murderer, thief and rumoured infanticide, told against him, although he did seize the throne and hold it for 26 months. Absent all these, the next possible candidate was Edward V's oldest sister Elizabeth. She was a woman. Vaginas were for producing babies not sitting on thrones.
That didn't leave many candidates. It was the genius of Henry (and his mother Margaret) to persuade people that their preferred candidate being unavailable because of X reason, he was a plausible alternative. To be sure, it helped considerably that he offered to marry Elizabeth. But it was this ability to be the second choice of a wide range that was the clincher. It drew in the southern gentry who hated Richard and wanted Edward V, the northern barons who were suspicious of him and wanted Warwick whom they hoped to manipulate, the dowager queen who wanted Elizabeth, and the supporters of Henry VI who wanted a Lancastrian on the throne. They were the ones who supported him in his battle (along with the regent of France who was just out to cause trouble).
I was in fact quoting Michael Hicks, who said Henry VII was 'a king elected by proportional representation. He was the first choice of very few people, but gained enough transfers from other candidates to become king when they were ruled out.' (He obviously means STV not PR, but I'm not responsible for his misunderstanding of constitutional theory.)
0 -
I think you're about 20 years older than their average customer.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
0 -
No I am not.. I am quoting labour sources shown downthreaddots said:
You taking the 25 for granted? That’s the same mistake Mr Big. 😁Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would refer you to tonight comments by labour mps in leave seats with 25 already saying they will vote againstdots said:
Keep saying it Big G if it makes you feel better. But you are wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
You are wrong to take Labour leave votes for granted as not going to Labour in a general election.
You may not even be right that it was Labour votes that made key difference in those areas called leave constituency’s. 2017 GE hints at such. The reason is, in 2016, up and down the country, polling stations didn't get all the usual faces, but quite a lot of faces who don't go in there very often, if at all. The rationale was voting leave because remain belonged to the political establishment these voters think never listens to them and has hollowed out their communities with globalisation and austerity. Not a rationale that suggests they rush into arms of long standing conservative government.
That’s my reasoning why your statement is wrong. Where’s your reasoning supporting your statement.
Those that campaigned for remain and found their constituency go leave no longer have to play the game. They have been freed from that game. I predict labour MPs voting against will not only be in single figures, but less than 5.
And I am only the messenger. Frankly TM deal or remain are fine with me0 -
As with pineapple pizza, once is often judged more than sufficient.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
0 -
Doing a SeanT-style online clean-up in order to become first TIG prime minister?Danny565 said:
Speaking of JK, why has she seemingly disappeared from Twitter?Alistair said:
There are people desperate to vote Labour in Scotland. They are unionists. They want to stay in the EU. They hate Corbyn and the SNP.TheScreamingEagles said:
You think?Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
Let's call them the JK Rowling types.
Tonight Corbyn has given them enough to work with to stop them contemplating Scottish Independence as a way of staying in the EU.
I would've thought she would've been in her element this past week.0 -
Well, the cynical view is that he wanted the disaster socialist outcome so much that he wouldn't do this until he was literally threatened with the dissolution of his party.TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1100089073367240704
But, but, but... hard left! communist! marxist!
This can't be right, we were told so reliably by so many people on the right exactly what Corbyn wanted, many on the left disagreed but there was an understanding that only those on the right really know what the left will do...
I'm still convinced Starmer tricked him.
But all's well that ends well...0 -
I don't like the political crap he's advocating - you don't want to see that if you go out for a drink or something to eat.Foxy said:
I used to quite like Wetherspoons. The beer is generally good and cheap. The food is quite OK.TheScreamingEagles said:
I did once eat at a Wetherspoons.tlg86 said:
You're not missing out.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I'd sooner eat a pizza with pineapple on it than go back.
Wetherspoon himself is an obnoxious turd, so I spend my money elsewhere nowadays.
One thing I'd say about Weatherspoons is that they are good at putting old buildings back into use and so improving the general area.0 -
I like Zizzi's, I like The Handmade Burger Company, I love Subway.another_richard said:
I think you're about 20 years older than their average customer.TheScreamingEagles said:I've never eaten at Nando's.
I bloody love Yo Sushi!
As a good Muslim boy it is very difficult to find a nice eatery.0 -
Thanks in no small part to these selfsame supporters. Elizabeth obligingly bore him a son nine months after their marriage. Oxford and Northumberland commanded the army that won at Stoke. Surrey (who had supported Richard) restored order in the north after the tax riots of 1489. The southern gentry kept order for him in London through plague and rioting. And Edward of Warwick helpfully became progressively more insane as he aged until he was tricked into doing something treasonous and beheaded in 1499.Nigelb said:
He did a fairly effective job of seizing a firm grasp on the throne after he became king, though.ydoethur said:I was in fact quoting Michael Hicks, who said Henry VII was 'a king elected by proportional representation. He was the first choice of very few people, but gained enough transfers from other candidates to become king when they were ruled out.' (He obviously means STV not PR, but I'm not responsible for his misunderstanding of constitutional theory.)
Henry's genius was always in persuading people that whatever his faults he was better than the alternatives. At one and the same time it made him a highly effective king and means in the verdict of posterity he has always suffered compared to his energetic and dynamic son and youngest granddaughter, who ruled very much more by their own charisma.0 -
A suprisingly small effect IMO:
' House prices in London could dip three per cent after a no deal Brexit, new research has found.
However, if an agreement is reached, property prices are expected to rise 0.5 per cent in the capital and 1.5 per cent nationally. '
http://www.cityam.com/273691/lonon-house-prices-fall-three-per-cent-after-no-deal-brexit0
This discussion has been closed.