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Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands0 -
Thank you Nick 😀NickPalmer said:
It's possible - if she decides that No Deal would be really bad, she can revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit. It would be suicidal in the Tory party, but she might accept an instruction from Parliament (with the implication of a VONC if she refuses).dots said:
On the topic of No Deal
Not just Corbyn, who unwisely won’t go in and discuss with May or Liddington, but just about everybody else who have been in have also stated the condition take No Deal off the table. But has any of these people explained how that is done? Have the media asked this enough? If she wanted to, if she thought she could get away with taking No Deal off the table, how does May do it? For the sake of clarity is it technically possible or impossible?
Is that the only way May can do it? So all those urging her to do it, that’s what they are telling her to do, technically possible but politically impossible or next to impossible?
How technically can parliament do it? It’s much talked up but is it impossible?0 -
The EU have basically said the same thing the entire time, and it isn't helping either of us reach an agreement. Even if it is self harm if MPs won't stop it it can still happen, and the EU, which does hold the far stronger hand, has so much more flexibility to convince us not to do something stupid, rather than assume we won't do something stupid. That kind of complacency is why they react with contempt to criticism, assuming only stupid people complain.FF43 said:
Self harm isn't a card. Surely?Big_G_NorthWales said:
This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.RobD said:
Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
I'd rather we not take such a risk, and they are not obliged to give in (nor do they appear likely to do so), but they are going to help create the situation they claim not to want.
But then, given they now appear to be pushing remain, while they didn't start out trying to engineer no deal (I do believe they wanted a deal) they seem quite keen on it now.0 -
How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8
How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.0 -
+1Andy_Cooke said:
So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."TheScreamingEagles said:I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.
- P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.
"Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
- David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011
"Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
- Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?0 -
Well there is a difficulty of course. Bending on the backstop would undoubtedly see it become much much closer, but is still no guarantee, which sadly is yet another reason they won't consider it, on top of everything else.williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands0 -
It is not self harmFF43 said:
Self harm isn't a card. Surely?Big_G_NorthWales said:
This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.RobD said:
Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise0 -
Or Singapore?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Who surrendered at Yorktown?TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8
0 -
In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.viewcode said:
"Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?Quincel said:
You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.viewcode said:
Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?AndyJS said:"At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable0 -
Trying to do.Theuniondivvie said:
As someone unkindly but accurately pointed out, Labour's vision for Scotland is what they're doing in Wales.Big_G_NorthWales said:About that labour recovery in Scotland Justin keeps claiming
Just had a tweet from the Daily Post (North Wales news) that the Scottish labour party have been called out for releasing a promotional video featuring scenes filmed in ..........Wales
The video for social media shows Richard Leonard discussing labour's vision for Scotland
It says 'our Country is run by an elite few. It belongs to all of us. Watch and share the three minute 'Vision for Scotland' promotion featuring clips of Scottish scenery, families and businesses'
At 1.25 mins in the camera pans out to a striking shot of a mountain range ........ Tryfan in the Snowdonia National Park
Scotland has magnificient mountains and scenery - maybe next time film in Scotland
Conwy Council are going to increase our rates by between 9.5% and 11.5% in April and we have a four weekly bin collection0 -
Then it's an idle bluff and will be seen as such.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not self harmFF43 said:
Self harm isn't a card. Surely?Big_G_NorthWales said:
This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.RobD said:
Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise0 -
Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.Andy_Cooke said:
Um - correct. So?Sunil_Prasannan said:
AV is NOT proportional!Andy_Cooke said:
So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."TheScreamingEagles said:I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.
- P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.
"Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
- David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011
"Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
- Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?0 -
-
Pause.David_Evershed said:
How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8
How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
I'm really not seeing the problem here...
0 -
Oh, I forgot about that oneBenpointer said:
Or Singapore?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Who surrendered at Yorktown?TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8 0 -
They insist it is a bluff, and it might, but we might still stumble into it. It's hardly their fault if we do, but they could easily roll back on demands since they have such a strong hand, but are so intent on winning the negotiation they won't. Congratulations, EU, you'll win, I hope you're happy with the result.williamglenn said:
Then it's an idle bluff and will be seen as such.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not self harmFF43 said:
Self harm isn't a card. Surely?Big_G_NorthWales said:
This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.RobD said:
Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise0 -
"Prince Philip gets a new car despite fears over his driving"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/prince-philip-gets-a-new-car-despite-fears-over-his-driving-x3q83bknx0 -
We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/10757948298781982740 -
Until we know whether it was his fault what would be the fear?AndyJS said:"Prince Philip gets a new car despite fears over his driving"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/prince-philip-gets-a-new-car-despite-fears-over-his-driving-x3q83bknx0 -
None of this makes any sense to me, or I think to anyone outside the UK. I guess means the outcome is more likely to happen, because no one, as far as we can tell, will stop it happening.kle4 said:
The EU have basically said the same thing the entire time, and it isn't helping either of us reach an agreement. Even if it is self harm if MPs won't stop it it can still happen, and the EU, which does hold the far stronger hand, has so much more flexibility to convince us not to do something stupid, rather than assume we won't do something stupid. That kind of complacency is why they react with contempt to criticism, assuming only stupid people complain.FF43 said:
Self harm isn't a card. Surely?Big_G_NorthWales said:
This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.RobD said:
Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
I'd rather we not take such a risk, and they are not obliged to give in (nor do they appear likely to do so), but they are going to help create the situation they claim not to want.
But then, given they now appear to be pushing remain, while they didn't start out trying to engineer no deal (I do believe they wanted a deal) they seem quite keen on it now.
On that note ...0 -
I do feel sorry for TM - it's horrible to be in the wrong job, as she really seems to be.
Of past PMs, I quite liked the ones I've met (Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major) but Brown was the only one I felt sorry for. Cameron and Major did their best, accepted equably that it hadn't worked, and moved on - they rarely if ever looked distressed. Blair was far too in command of events to feel sorry for - even when they were going wrong, you could see him feeling he could rise to the challenge and enjoying it. Brown IMO did a good job when the crisis broke, but beyond that he never quite figured out how he was going to use his office, and he was hugely frustrated by it. He was also rather shy in person outside the political scene, something that didn't come out in the hostile biography - I remember how diffident he was just talking to children in a local school in my patch.0 -
It's not as if they had any stake in wanting to say that, is it?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.Andy_Cooke said:
Um - correct. So?Sunil_Prasannan said:
AV is NOT proportional!Andy_Cooke said:
So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."TheScreamingEagles said:I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.
- P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.
"Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
- David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011
"Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
- Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
Oh, wait...
For a scientist to be relying on appeal to authority (especially authority with an obvious bias) is a little disappointing.0 -
Are the Royals too miserly to employ a chauffeur?AndyJS said:"Prince Philip gets a new car despite fears over his driving"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/prince-philip-gets-a-new-car-despite-fears-over-his-driving-x3q83bknx
REPUBLIC, NOW!0 -
He could also have taken the statesman like position of arguing for a slow soft Brexit after the referendum, which would have been entirely in line with his previous beliefs, such as they were. Instead he chooses to play to the loons in the gallery.notme2 said:kinabalu said:New experience for me watching Boris Johnson today. Genuine embarrassment for the guy.
Nothing has gone right for him since the Brexit result. He could have quite passionately argued for either cause. He did a calculation that glorious defeat in a Brexit referendum sets him to be the next PM. Hmm. Didn’t quite go well.0 -
You are a 14 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. Then you are a 24 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. The rites of passage, so vital for any healthy society has been lost, and needs to be found.viewcode said:
Pause.David_Evershed said:
How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8
How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
I'm really not seeing the problem here...0 -
And how about the authority of people like you and me? Remember the OTHER referendum, back in 2011?Andy_Cooke said:
It's not as if they had any stake in wanting to say that, is it?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.Andy_Cooke said:
Um - correct. So?Sunil_Prasannan said:
AV is NOT proportional!Andy_Cooke said:
So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."TheScreamingEagles said:I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.
- P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.
"Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
- David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011
"Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
- Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
Oh, wait...
For a scientist to be relying on appeal to authority (especially authority with an obvious bias) is a little disappointing.
No to AV: 68%
Yes to AV: 32%0 -
The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.The_Taxman said:
Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?ralphmalph said:
The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.The_Taxman said:
29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.Stereotomy said:
Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flagStereotomy said:
........Big_G_NorthWales said:
Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threatBlack_Rook said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808
Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.
Yeah.
He is not good at politics
I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.
Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that0 -
So she can do it by Feb 28 but she'd have to announce it Monday, have the vote Tue or Weds, literally zero washup time, dissolve Weds/Thurs.Quincel said:
In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.viewcode said:
"Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?Quincel said:
You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.viewcode said:
Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?AndyJS said:"At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
Well, she has got form for cray-cray, so not impossible, but day-um what a move... ;(0 -
I expect he will be confined to the estate and not permitted on public roadsAndyJS said:"Prince Philip gets a new car despite fears over his driving"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/prince-philip-gets-a-new-car-despite-fears-over-his-driving-x3q83bknx
0 -
Well, also from Wikipedia:Quincel said:
In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.viewcode said:
"Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?Quincel said:
You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.viewcode said:
Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?AndyJS said:"At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
If the House of Commons, with the support of two thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election"... the Monarch (on the recommendation of the prime minister) appoints the date of the new election by proclamation. Parliament is then dissolved 25 working days before that date.</>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011
So I take it that if May announces on Monday that her Plan B is to have a GE, the vote can be held and Parliament dissolved by Thursday 24th, providing the requisite 25 days until a GE on 28th Feb.
I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.0 -
The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
0 -
Yeah, the Brexit campaign and aftermath has such a friendly vibe about it.David_Evershed said:
We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/10757948298781982740 -
Project Fear?MarqueeMark said:
The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands0 -
I fear you may have treated my humorous response with more seriousness than it deserved...dots said:
You are a 14 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. Then you are a 24 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. The rites of passage, so vital for any healthy society has been lost, and needs to be found.viewcode said:
Pause.David_Evershed said:
How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8
How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
I'm really not seeing the problem here... 0 -
“If we set fire to our ships, yours will probably burn also”Benpointer said:
Project Fear?MarqueeMark said:
The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands0 -
In order to secure Corbyn's support for the deal?MarqueeMark said:
The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands0 -
Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.Scott_P said:0 -
-
He is explicitly asking Leavers to confirm they voted for "No deal"David_Evershed said:Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.
0 -
Those EU countries should not be worried. Our parliamentarians have given every indication that no deal will soon be removed as an option, so compromising our government's ability to negotiate anything better than what is already dead in the water. And even if no deal stays as a hypothetical option, it's clear enough that Remainer May would never really follow through with it. So Remain it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
0 -
Europe has good reason to fear our fire ships:notme2 said:
“If we set fire to our ships, yours will probably burn also”Benpointer said:
Project Fear?MarqueeMark said:
The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singeing_the_King_of_Spain's_Beard0 -
In other news, anyone seen Hunchman? Australia needs that mini ice-age he predicted:
Australia swelters through record-breaking heatwave
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-468867980 -
You ever been divorced ?David_Evershed said:
We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/10757948298781982740 -
problem is the wankers in the Tory High Command go out of their way to make our businesses uncompetitveDavid_Evershed said:
The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.The_Taxman said:
Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?ralphmalph said:
The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.The_Taxman said:
29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.Stereotomy said:
Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flagStereotomy said:
........Big_G_NorthWales said:
Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threatBlack_Rook said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808
Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.
Yeah.
He is not good at politics
I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.
Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that0 -
Don't we have more admirals than ships these days?MarqueeMark said:
Europe has had good reason to fear our fire ships:notme2 said:
“If we set fire to our ships, yours will probably burn also”Benpointer said:
Project Fear?MarqueeMark said:
The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....williamglenn said:
Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singeing_the_King_of_Spain's_Beard0 -
Here's hoping!Wulfrun_Phil said:
Those EU countries should not be worried. Our parliamentarians have given every indication that no deal will soon be removed as an option, so compromising our government's ability to negotiate anything better than what is already dead in the water. And even if no deal stays as a hypothetical option, it's clear enough that Remainer May would never really follow through with it. So Remain it is.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried
As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands0 -
No deal is the only deal which the UK has the power to execute. Any other leave deals require the EU to cooperate.Scott_P said:
He is explicitly asking Leavers to confirm they voted for "No deal"David_Evershed said:Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.
So the only practical deal is No Deal/WTO Deal0 -
Except we do not. We seem to be incapable of putting together even a basic negotiating strategy that lacks internal self-contradictions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
Instead we roll up with a list of demands that verge on the insane (such as wanting to leave whilst retaining the benefits of membership) and then act surprised when nobody can give us those demands.0 -
Wishing it isn't going to make it happen David.David_Evershed said:
Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.Scott_P said:0 -
So let's confirm that's what 17.4m people voted forDavid_Evershed said:So the only practical deal is No Deal/WTO Deal
0 -
williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?0 -
How’s that gonna work if we’re all unemployed and can’t afford anything?David_Evershed said:
The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.The_Taxman said:
Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?ralphmalph said:
The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.The_Taxman said:
29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.Stereotomy said:
Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flagStereotomy said:
........Big_G_NorthWales said:
Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threatBlack_Rook said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808
Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.
Yeah.
He is not good at politics
I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.
Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that0 -
We are negotiating with ourselves. Always have been. Still are. We have yet to agree.Beverley_C said:
Except we do not. We seem to be incapable of putting together even a basic negotiating strategy that lacks internal self-contradictions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
Instead we roll up with a list of demands that verge on the insane (such as wanting to leave whilst retaining the benefits of membership) and then act surprised when nobody can give us those demands.
The negotiations with the EU were, and still are, a theoretical, theatrical, almost metaphysical distraction.0 -
You ever seen a happy couple forced to continue living together because their lawyers screwed up the divorce papers?notme2 said:
You ever been divorced ?David_Evershed said:
We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/10757948298781982740 -
I fear @dots treated it with more 'rites of passage' bullshit than it deserved.viewcode said:
I fear you may have treated my humorous response with more seriousness than it deserved...dots said:
You are a 14 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. Then you are a 24 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. The rites of passage, so vital for any healthy society has been lost, and needs to be found.viewcode said:
Pause.David_Evershed said:
How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.TheScreamingEagles said:Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?
France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8
How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
I'm really not seeing the problem here...0 -
Gallowgate said:
How’s that gonna work if we’re all unemployed and can’t afford anything?David_Evershed said:
The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.The_Taxman said:
Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?ralphmalph said:
The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.The_Taxman said:
29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.Stereotomy said:
Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flagStereotomy said:
........Big_G_NorthWales said:
Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threatBlack_Rook said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808
Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.
Yeah.
He is not good at politics
I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.
Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.0 -
Exactly! I think that you have summed it up very welldixiedean said:
We are negotiating with ourselves. Always have been. Still are. We have yet to agree.Beverley_C said:
Except we do not. We seem to be incapable of putting together even a basic negotiating strategy that lacks internal self-contradictions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The answer is you negotiate.FF43 said:
Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.williamglenn said:
That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I
I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
Instead we roll up with a list of demands that verge on the insane (such as wanting to leave whilst retaining the benefits of membership) and then act surprised when nobody can give us those demands.
The negotiations with the EU were, and still are, a theoretical, theatrical, almost metaphysical distraction.
0 -
Exactly. Let's say either our decision to leave was irrational, or they merely see it as irrational and cannot understand it. Neither bodes well for a deal, since they don't think we'll do things even though we've done other things they don't think we'll do, or just don't understand the decision. We've hardly helped by being so riven with infighting and confusion. I definitely underestimated this aspect, since I assumed the sides were at least playing up that they did not understand each other a little, and so I miscalculated the risk of this current stupid outcome.FF43 said:
None of this makes any sense to me, or I think to anyone outside the UK. I guess means the outcome is more likely to happen, because no one, as far as we can tell, will stop it happening.kle4 said:
The EU have basically said the same thing the entire time, and it isn't helping either of us reach an agreement. Even if it is self harm if MPs won't stop it it can still happen, and the EU, which does hold the far stronger hand, has so much more flexibility to convince us not to do something stupid, rather than assume we won't do something stupid. That kind of complacency is why they react with contempt to criticism, assuming only stupid people complain.FF43 said:
Self harm isn't a card. Surely?Big_G_NorthWales said:
This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.RobD said:
Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.FF43 said:
I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.TheScreamingEagles said:
And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
I'd rather we not take such a risk, and they are not obliged to give in (nor do they appear likely to do so), but they are going to help create the situation they claim not to want.
But then, given they now appear to be pushing remain, while they didn't start out trying to engineer no deal (I do believe they wanted a deal) they seem quite keen on it now.
0 -
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.0 -
I think it’s more about the casual view that we can all be friends afterwards. My experience is that is quite rare, can take many years even when it works.MarqueeMark said:
You ever seen a happy couple forced to continue living together because their lawyers screwed up the divorce papers?notme2 said:
You ever been divorced ?David_Evershed said:
We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/10757948298781982740 -
so Tory policy is do sod all basicallyDavid_Evershed said:Gallowgate said:
How’s that gonna work if we’re all unemployed and can’t afford anything?David_Evershed said:
The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.The_Taxman said:
Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?ralphmalph said:
The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.The_Taxman said:
29th March is a bit late for those who ha execution.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.Stereotomy said:
Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flagStereotomy said:
........Big_G_NorthWales said:
Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threatBlack_Rook said:https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808
Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.
Yeah.
He is not good at politics
I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.
Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.
death by abstract theories0 -
With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....David_Evershed said:
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.0 -
On that I'd actually disagree, even as bad as May's response is likely to be (probably "We've tried to talk it out, we've not come up with anything, so I'll ask for an extension but who knows if the EU will accept), since a GE is just a can kicking exercise which doesn't even answer the question of what Brexit, if any, people want (unless the LDs win a landslide) or come up with a process to resolve it, unless the returned MPs, for some reason, are more inclined to revoke without a referendum, which is improbable. Every other option would still require compromise, which they could do now and which a GE does not ensure.Benpointer said:
I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.Quincel said:
In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.viewcode said:
"Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?Quincel said:
You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.viewcode said:
Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?AndyJS said:"At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable0 -
I look forward to another round of DUP say it was constructive but the backstop must be dealt with, media reports that the DUP might be bending on something or other, then the DUP come out angrily denying they would ever bend on anything.williamglenn said:0 -
And argumentem ad populum, now?Sunil_Prasannan said:
And how about the authority of people like you and me? Remember the OTHER referendum, back in 2011?Andy_Cooke said:
It's not as if they had any stake in wanting to say that, is it?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.Andy_Cooke said:
Um - correct. So?Sunil_Prasannan said:
AV is NOT proportional!Andy_Cooke said:
So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."TheScreamingEagles said:I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.
- P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.
"Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
- David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011
"Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
- Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
Oh, wait...
For a scientist to be relying on appeal to authority (especially authority with an obvious bias) is a little disappointing.
No to AV: 68%
Yes to AV: 32%
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“We gave the Prime Minister her hors d'oeuvres.”kle4 said:
I look forward to another round of DUP say it was constructive but the backstop must be dealt with, media reports that the DUP might be bending on something or other, then the DUP come out angrily denying they would ever bend on anything.williamglenn said:0 -
I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.notme2 said:
With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....David_Evershed said:
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.0 -
Interesting viewpoint and I admit you might be right. But...kle4 said:
On that I'd actually disagree, even as bad as May's response is likely to be (probably "We've tried to talk it out, we've not come up with anything, so I'll ask for an extension but who knows if the EU will accept), since a GE is just a can kicking exercise which doesn't even answer the question of what Brexit, if any, people want (unless the LDs win a landslide) or come up with a process to resolve it, unless the returned MPs, for some reason, are more inclined to revoke without a referendum, which is improbable. Every other option would still require compromise, which they could do now and which a GE does not ensure.Benpointer said:
I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.Quincel said:
In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.viewcode said:
"Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?Quincel said:
You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.viewcode said:
Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?AndyJS said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
I worry her plan B is going to be "I'll try to get a few tweaks to my Deal and we'll vote again".
For a GE she would have to say "Vote Tory to implement my Deal". If she wins a majority, her MPs would find it very hard to rebel after that manifesto was endorsed. If she loses, it's somebody else's problem.
And in either case we'd need an A50 extension but I think the EU would ok that if there is a GE announced.0 -
After pudding, they get given their tickets to Brussels. Her Plan B, to be announced to the House: "I'm sending you guys, to see what deal you can extract that works for NI."williamglenn said:
"Do we have to take Robbins?"
"Hell no......."0 -
In all seriousness I don't know what they could possibly discuss other than social matters. Everyone knows where the DUP stand, and they don't have enough to lose in the short or medium term to possibly back down, and May cannot give them what they want. Or anything she can give them costs her a bunch more Cabinet Members and votes.williamglenn said:
So I'd advise them to just relax, play a boardgame or something.0 -
Yeah sure. Everyone's going to vote for that.David_Evershed said:Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.
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+1 Well said!Beverley_C said:
I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.notme2 said:
With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....David_Evershed said:
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.0 -
Benpointer said:
+1 Well said!Beverley_C said:
I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.notme2 said:
With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....David_Evershed said:
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case. 0 -
Don't worry, the voting booths will be behind an assualt course so the weak don't get to vote.Gallowgate said:
Yeah sure. Everyone's going to vote for that.David_Evershed said:Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.
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That would be a mistake of them in my opinion. They claim to want an end to this, a GE does not do that.Benpointer said:
Interesting viewpoint and I admit you might be right. But...kle4 said:
Ons not ensure.Benpointer said:
I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.Quincel said:
In 2017 Parliaeasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.viewcode said:
"Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?Quincel said:
You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.viewcode said:
Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?AndyJS said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
I worry her plan B is going to be "I'll try to get a few tweaks to my Deal and we'll vote again".
For a GE she would have to say "Vote Tory to implement my Deal". If she wins a majority, her MPs would find it very hard to rebel after that manifesto was endorsed. If she loses, it's somebody else's problem.
And in either case we'd need an A50 extension but I think the EU would ok that if there is a GE announced.
On May's potential plan B, yes possibly. I assumed in December one reason the MV would not be pulled would be that May would use that loss to say to the EU 'Look, I cannot get this deal through and here's the proof, but I might be able if you tell Leo to back down already'. Probably wouldn't work, but she'd have the weight of parliament behind her.
But she pulled it anyway, said she was going to try to negotiate a few tweaks, and bugger all has happened in a month. That plan B was a bit optimistic in December, now it is a joke. Not least with the EU making a push for remain, they have no reason to bend for a deal, as has been made clear they think we're nuts and so don't believe we'll truly quit if there's no deal.0 -
I know. I was teasing. It’s quite touching. And it is things like that that make me sad we are leaving the EU.Beverley_C said:
I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.notme2 said:
With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....David_Evershed said:
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.0 -
williamglenn said:
Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.0 -
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0
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The vote failed primarily because of the backstop, so she is asking them to move on the backstop. What's the story?Scott_P said:0 -
Ben Bradshaw just shows how poor mps knowledge is
He just said that if the Brexiteers want their brexit, the idea they could get the deal they want through the HOC is for the birds
While he voted against A50, 498 of his colleagues did making A50 no deal default
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I don't understand their confusion. Of course her demands remain the same - she told them she couldn't get it through without X, and she was right (whether even with X, whatever that is, she could get it through is also questionable). Do they expect her to be more flexible after parliament told her the plan is already unacceptable, and thus (for at least 100+ of those against it) giving the EU more is even more unacceptable.Scott_P said:
We hear a lot about the EU not bluffing. Well May has hardly been bluffing for the last 6 months - her position is so weak and they surely can see that, they know she cannot force an agreement on parliament.0 -
“Pineapple and cheese on a stick, anyone?”Benpointer said:
Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.williamglenn said:0 -
I see that Question Time is now merely a vehicle for encouraging illegitimate criticism of Diane Abbot. Names are being collected and the hit list will be a long one.0
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Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.Benpointer said:0 -
He will keep himself busy putting the bins outkle4 said:
Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.Benpointer said:0 -
Article 50 is revocable, as Donald Tusk told them before they voted. There is a legal default, but a political choice between three options: deal, no deal, Remain.Big_G_NorthWales said:Ben Bradshaw just shows how poor mps knowledge is
He just said that if the Brexiteers want their brexit, the idea they could get the deal they want through the HOC is for the birds
While he voted against A50, 498 of his colleagues did making A50 no deal default0 -
This guy is always good, but this para is a cracker:
Despite their political differences, May and Corbyn are remarkably similar in their grotesque rigidity, and their slightly tetchy muleishness born of a mediocrity of character, intellect and judgment. Indeed the most notable thing about the closing speeches in the ‘no confidence’ debate was that they provided devastating critiques of both party leaders.
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/01/a-dangerous-political-void.html0 -
Pfft Your council tax is well cheap compared to mine.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Trying to do.Theuniondivvie said:
As someone unkindly but accurately pointed out, Labour's vision for Scotland is what they're doing in Wales.Big_G_NorthWales said:About that labour recovery in Scotland Justin keeps claiming
Just had a tweet from the Daily Post (North Wales news) that the Scottish labour party have been called out for releasing a promotional video featuring scenes filmed in ..........Wales
The video for social media shows Richard Leonard discussing labour's vision for Scotland
It says 'our Country is run by an elite few. It belongs to all of us. Watch and share the three minute 'Vision for Scotland' promotion featuring clips of Scottish scenery, families and businesses'
At 1.25 mins in the camera pans out to a striking shot of a mountain range ........ Tryfan in the Snowdonia National Park
Scotland has magnificient mountains and scenery - maybe next time film in Scotland
Conwy Council are going to increase our rates by between 9.5% and 11.5% in April and we have a four weekly bin collection0 -
!?!notme2 said:
I know. I was teasing. It’s quite touching. And it is things like that that make me sad we are leaving the EU.Beverley_C said:
I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.notme2 said:
With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....David_Evershed said:
i and e both in lower case.notme2 said:williamglenn said:
This one?ralphmalph said:German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.
https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
Are you sure that's you notme?
0 -
The BBC's re-boot of Question Time with new presenter Fiona Bruce runs into one or two difficulties.
"Diane Abbott accuses BBC Question Time of legitimising racism
Labour MP’s spokesperson claims she was mocked and interrupted more than other panellists"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/18/diane-abbott-accuses-bbc-question-time-of-legitimising-racism0 -
deserves everything she gets.. . If she doesn't like the heat...matt said:I see that Question Time is now merely a vehicle for encouraging illegitimate criticism of Diane Abbot. Names are being collected and the hit list will be a long one.
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This is the same Andrea Leadsom who said that no-deal doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a Withdrawal Agreement.williamglenn said:
These people can't fairly be described as clowns, because they're not even funny any more.0 -
They like North Wales. Should come here, only need to do it once every four weeks !!!!!!SquareRoot said:
He will keep himself busy putting the bins outkle4 said:
Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.Benpointer said:0 -
AndyJS said:
The BBC's re-boot of Question Time with new presenter Fiona Bruce runs into one or two difficulties.
"Diane Abbott accuses BBC Question Time of legitimising racism
Labour MP’s spokesperson claims she was mocked and interrupted more than other panellists"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/18/diane-abbott-accuses-bbc-question-time-of-legitimising-racism
What’s that got to do with race?0 -
Sounds very efficient!Big_G_NorthWales said:
They like North Wales. Should come here, only need to do it once every four weeks !!!!!!SquareRoot said:
He will keep himself busy putting the bins outkle4 said:
Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.Benpointer said:0 -
Deciding to leave the EU because you don't like it isn't irrational. Maybe you think the downsides are worth it, or maybe you don't think there are any downsides. We can have an argument about it, but the first is a difference of opinion and the second a difference of assessment. There's nothing irrational about it. Deliberately self harming isn't "seen" as irrational. It's the actual definition of the word "irrational"kle4 said:
Exactly. Let's say either our decision to leave was irrational, or they merely see it as irrational and cannot understand it. Neither bodes well for a deal, since they don't think we'll do things even though we've done other things they don't think we'll do, or just don't understand the decision. We've hardly helped by being so riven with infighting and confusion. I definitely underestimated this aspect, since I assumed the sides were at least playing up that they did not understand each other a little, and so I miscalculated the risk of this current stupid outcome.
I just don't get it.
The EU's objective from the start has been to get through Brexit with the least additional damage to itself. Maybe that approach lacks imagination and limits the possibilities of a better outcome. If we go down the No Deal route it has every incentive to isolate us further. If we set fire to our ships they will keep theirs well away and ours, as far as possible, out to sea.0
This discussion has been closed.