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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,738

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:



    On the topic of No Deal

    Not just Corbyn, who unwisely won’t go in and discuss with May or Liddington, but just about everybody else who have been in have also stated the condition take No Deal off the table. But has any of these people explained how that is done? Have the media asked this enough? If she wanted to, if she thought she could get away with taking No Deal off the table, how does May do it? For the sake of clarity is it technically possible or impossible?

    It's possible - if she decides that No Deal would be really bad, she can revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit. It would be suicidal in the Tory party, but she might accept an instruction from Parliament (with the implication of a VONC if she refuses).
    Thank you Nick 😀

    Is that the only way May can do it? So all those urging her to do it, that’s what they are telling her to do, technically possible but politically impossible or next to impossible?

    How technically can parliament do it? It’s much talked up but is it impossible?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.

    And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
    Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.
    This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.

    It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
    Self harm isn't a card. Surely?
    The EU have basically said the same thing the entire time, and it isn't helping either of us reach an agreement. Even if it is self harm if MPs won't stop it it can still happen, and the EU, which does hold the far stronger hand, has so much more flexibility to convince us not to do something stupid, rather than assume we won't do something stupid. That kind of complacency is why they react with contempt to criticism, assuming only stupid people complain.

    I'd rather we not take such a risk, and they are not obliged to give in (nor do they appear likely to do so), but they are going to help create the situation they claim not to want.

    But then, given they now appear to be pushing remain, while they didn't start out trying to engineer no deal (I do believe they wanted a deal) they seem quite keen on it now.
  • Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.

    How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.

    "Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."
    - P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.

    "Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
    - David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011

    "Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
    - Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
    So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?

    Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
    +1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    Well there is a difficulty of course. Bending on the backstop would undoubtedly see it become much much closer, but is still no guarantee, which sadly is yet another reason they won't consider it, on top of everything else.
  • FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.

    And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
    Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.
    This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.

    It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
    Self harm isn't a card. Surely?
    It is not self harm
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    Who surrendered at Yorktown? :lol:
    Or Singapore?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    viewcode said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general

    Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?
    You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.
    "Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?
    In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
  • About that labour recovery in Scotland Justin keeps claiming

    Just had a tweet from the Daily Post (North Wales news) that the Scottish labour party have been called out for releasing a promotional video featuring scenes filmed in ..........Wales

    The video for social media shows Richard Leonard discussing labour's vision for Scotland

    It says 'our Country is run by an elite few. It belongs to all of us. Watch and share the three minute 'Vision for Scotland' promotion featuring clips of Scottish scenery, families and businesses'

    At 1.25 mins in the camera pans out to a striking shot of a mountain range ........ Tryfan in the Snowdonia National Park

    Scotland has magnificient mountains and scenery - maybe next time film in Scotland

    As someone unkindly but accurately pointed out, Labour's vision for Scotland is what they're doing in Wales.
    Trying to do.

    Conwy Council are going to increase our rates by between 9.5% and 11.5% in April and we have a four weekly bin collection
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,738

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.

    And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
    Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.
    This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.

    It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
    Self harm isn't a card. Surely?
    It is not self harm
    Then it's an idle bluff and will be seen as such.
  • I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.

    "Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."
    - P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.

    "Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
    - David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011

    "Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
    - Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
    So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?

    Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
    AV is NOT proportional!
    Um - correct. So?
    Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138

    Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.

    How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
    Pause.

    I'm really not seeing the problem here... :)
  • Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    Who surrendered at Yorktown? :lol:
    Or Singapore?
    Oh, I forgot about that one :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.

    And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
    Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.
    This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.

    It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
    Self harm isn't a card. Surely?
    It is not self harm
    Then it's an idle bluff and will be seen as such.
    They insist it is a bluff, and it might, but we might still stumble into it. It's hardly their fault if we do, but they could easily roll back on demands since they have such a strong hand, but are so intent on winning the negotiation they won't. Congratulations, EU, you'll win, I hope you're happy with the result.
  • German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
    We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    AndyJS said:
    Until we know whether it was his fault what would be the fear?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.

    And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
    Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.
    This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.

    It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
    Self harm isn't a card. Surely?
    The EU have basically said the same thing the entire time, and it isn't helping either of us reach an agreement. Even if it is self harm if MPs won't stop it it can still happen, and the EU, which does hold the far stronger hand, has so much more flexibility to convince us not to do something stupid, rather than assume we won't do something stupid. That kind of complacency is why they react with contempt to criticism, assuming only stupid people complain.

    I'd rather we not take such a risk, and they are not obliged to give in (nor do they appear likely to do so), but they are going to help create the situation they claim not to want.

    But then, given they now appear to be pushing remain, while they didn't start out trying to engineer no deal (I do believe they wanted a deal) they seem quite keen on it now.
    None of this makes any sense to me, or I think to anyone outside the UK. I guess means the outcome is more likely to happen, because no one, as far as we can tell, will stop it happening.

    On that note ...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    I do feel sorry for TM - it's horrible to be in the wrong job, as she really seems to be.

    Of past PMs, I quite liked the ones I've met (Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major) but Brown was the only one I felt sorry for. Cameron and Major did their best, accepted equably that it hadn't worked, and moved on - they rarely if ever looked distressed. Blair was far too in command of events to feel sorry for - even when they were going wrong, you could see him feeling he could rise to the challenge and enjoying it. Brown IMO did a good job when the crisis broke, but beyond that he never quite figured out how he was going to use his office, and he was hugely frustrated by it. He was also rather shy in person outside the political scene, something that didn't come out in the hostile biography - I remember how diffident he was just talking to children in a local school in my patch.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.

    "Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."
    - P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.

    "Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
    - David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011

    "Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
    - Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
    So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?

    Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
    AV is NOT proportional!
    Um - correct. So?
    Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.
    It's not as if they had any stake in wanting to say that, is it?
    Oh, wait...
    For a scientist to be relying on appeal to authority (especially authority with an obvious bias) is a little disappointing.
  • AndyJS said:
    Are the Royals too miserly to employ a chauffeur?

    REPUBLIC, NOW!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    notme2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    New experience for me watching Boris Johnson today. Genuine embarrassment for the guy.


    Nothing has gone right for him since the Brexit result. He could have quite passionately argued for either cause. He did a calculation that glorious defeat in a Brexit referendum sets him to be the next PM. Hmm. Didn’t quite go well.
    He could also have taken the statesman like position of arguing for a slow soft Brexit after the referendum, which would have been entirely in line with his previous beliefs, such as they were. Instead he chooses to play to the loons in the gallery.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    viewcode said:

    Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.

    How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
    Pause.

    I'm really not seeing the problem here... :)
    You are a 14 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. Then you are a 24 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. The rites of passage, so vital for any healthy society has been lost, and needs to be found.
  • I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.

    "Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."
    - P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.

    "Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
    - David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011

    "Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
    - Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
    So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?

    Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
    AV is NOT proportional!
    Um - correct. So?
    Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.
    It's not as if they had any stake in wanting to say that, is it?
    Oh, wait...
    For a scientist to be relying on appeal to authority (especially authority with an obvious bias) is a little disappointing.
    And how about the authority of people like you and me? Remember the OTHER referendum, back in 2011?

    No to AV: 68%
    Yes to AV: 32%
  • https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808

    Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.

    Yeah.

    Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threat

    He is not good at politics

    I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
    ........
    Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flag
    Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?
    No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.

    Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.

    Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
    29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.
    The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.
    Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?
    The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general

    Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?
    You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.
    "Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?
    In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
    So she can do it by Feb 28 but she'd have to announce it Monday, have the vote Tue or Weds, literally zero washup time, dissolve Weds/Thurs.

    Well, she has got form for cray-cray, so not impossible, but day-um what a move... ;(
  • AndyJS said:
    I expect he will be confined to the estate and not permitted on public roads

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general

    Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?
    You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.
    "Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?
    In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
    Well, also from Wikipedia:

    If the House of Commons, with the support of two thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election"... the Monarch (on the recommendation of the prime minister) appoints the date of the new election by proclamation. Parliament is then dissolved 25 working days before that date.</>

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011

    So I take it that if May announces on Monday that her Plan B is to have a GE, the vote can be held and Parliament dissolved by Thursday 24th, providing the requisite 25 days until a GE on 28th Feb.

    I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
    We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?
    Yeah, the Brexit campaign and aftermath has such a friendly vibe about it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....
    Project Fear?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,138
    dots said:

    viewcode said:

    Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.

    How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
    Pause.

    I'm really not seeing the problem here... :)
    You are a 14 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. Then you are a 24 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. The rites of passage, so vital for any healthy society has been lost, and needs to be found.
    I fear you may have treated my humorous response with more seriousness than it deserved... :)
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....
    Project Fear?
    “If we set fire to our ships, yours will probably burn also”
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,738

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....
    In order to secure Corbyn's support for the deal?
  • Scott_P said:
    Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.

    He is explicitly asking Leavers to confirm they voted for "No deal"
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Those EU countries should not be worried. Our parliamentarians have given every indication that no deal will soon be removed as an option, so compromising our government's ability to negotiate anything better than what is already dead in the water. And even if no deal stays as a hypothetical option, it's clear enough that Remainer May would never really follow through with it. So Remain it is.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    notme2 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....
    Project Fear?
    “If we set fire to our ships, yours will probably burn also”
    Europe has good reason to fear our fire ships:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singeing_the_King_of_Spain's_Beard
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited January 2019
    In other news, anyone seen Hunchman? Australia needs that mini ice-age he predicted:

    Australia swelters through record-breaking heatwave

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-46886798
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
    We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?
    You ever been divorced ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808

    Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.

    Yeah.

    Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threat

    He is not good at politics

    I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
    ........
    Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flag
    Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?
    No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.

    Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.

    Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
    29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.
    The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.
    Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?
    The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.
    problem is the wankers in the Tory High Command go out of their way to make our businesses uncompetitve
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited January 2019

    notme2 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Compromise on what? What could the EU offer that would guarantee a majority in parliament for the withdrawal agreement?
    The lengthy list of EU countries that No Deal Brexit pushes into recession is a fair incentive to have a rummage around - and see what compromise they can find....
    Project Fear?
    “If we set fire to our ships, yours will probably burn also”
    Europe has had good reason to fear our fire ships:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singeing_the_King_of_Spain's_Beard
    Don't we have more admirals than ships these days?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.

    There are some indications Countries in the EU are waking up to the default nature of A50's no deal and are getting very worried

    As the days pass and no deal remains the likelihood of compromise increases. Take no deal off the table and that is extinguished at a stroke, playing into EU and remainers hands
    Those EU countries should not be worried. Our parliamentarians have given every indication that no deal will soon be removed as an option, so compromising our government's ability to negotiate anything better than what is already dead in the water. And even if no deal stays as a hypothetical option, it's clear enough that Remainer May would never really follow through with it. So Remain it is.
    Here's hoping!
  • Scott_P said:

    Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.

    He is explicitly asking Leavers to confirm they voted for "No deal"
    No deal is the only deal which the UK has the power to execute. Any other leave deals require the EU to cooperate.

    So the only practical deal is No Deal/WTO Deal
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited January 2019

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.
    Except we do not. We seem to be incapable of putting together even a basic negotiating strategy that lacks internal self-contradictions.

    Instead we roll up with a list of demands that verge on the insane (such as wanting to leave whilst retaining the benefits of membership) and then act surprised when nobody can give us those demands.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Scott_P said:
    Since we have alreday voted to leave in the first referendum, any second referendum would need to be a choice betwen two leave options.
    Wishing it isn't going to make it happen David.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    So the only practical deal is No Deal/WTO Deal

    So let's confirm that's what 17.4m people voted for
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808

    Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.

    Yeah.

    Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threat

    He is not good at politics

    I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
    ........
    Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flag
    Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?
    No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.

    Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.

    Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
    29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.
    The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.
    Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?
    The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.
    How’s that gonna work if we’re all unemployed and can’t afford anything?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.
    Except we do not. We seem to be incapable of putting together even a basic negotiating strategy that lacks internal self-contradictions.

    Instead we roll up with a list of demands that verge on the insane (such as wanting to leave whilst retaining the benefits of membership) and then act surprised when nobody can give us those demands.
    We are negotiating with ourselves. Always have been. Still are. We have yet to agree.
    The negotiations with the EU were, and still are, a theoretical, theatrical, almost metaphysical distraction.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
    We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?
    You ever been divorced ?
    You ever seen a happy couple forced to continue living together because their lawyers screwed up the divorce papers?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited January 2019
    viewcode said:

    dots said:

    viewcode said:

    Does it really take a month to teach 16 year olds how to surrender?

    France to send all 16-year-olds on a month’s national service. All French 16-year-olds will wear a uniform and salute the flag under a national service scheme that will start trials in June, the government said yesterday.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-to-send-all-16-year-olds-on-a-month-s-national-service-7rw5g3fx8

    How to alienate all 16 year olds in France. Send them on a one month national service in the army.

    How to alienate the french army. Send all 16 year olds on a one month national service in the army.
    Pause.

    I'm really not seeing the problem here... :)
    You are a 14 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. Then you are a 24 year old drug dealer with a nihilistic outlook. The rites of passage, so vital for any healthy society has been lost, and needs to be found.
    I fear you may have treated my humorous response with more seriousness than it deserved... :)
    I fear @dots treated it with more 'rites of passage' bullshit than it deserved.
  • https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808

    Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.

    Yeah.

    Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threat

    He is not good at politics

    I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
    ........
    Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flag
    Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?
    No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.

    Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.

    Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
    29th March is a bit late for those who have already lost their jobs due to Brexit. Just in the last few days I noticed a pharmaceutical manufacturer axe many jobs and a west country tyre manufacturer axe hundreds of jobs. The companies involved are transferring their production to other EU countries. I used to back the Tories because of their handling of the economy was superior to Labour. I cannot say that when foreseeable job losses are arising due to a badly thought out policy and its catastrophic execution.
    The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.
    Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?
    The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.
    How’s that gonna work if we’re all unemployed and can’t afford anything?

    Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    dixiedean said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.
    That's a 2 year old front page about her Lancaster House speech.
    Sorry, should always check before hyperventilating.

    Anyhoo, Mrs May hasn't ruled out No Deal. Far from it. Which brings me to a semi-serious question. What should you do if someone threatens to self-harm if you don't do what they demand? You obviously want to prevent anything bad happening, but you also don't want to encourage destructive behaviour. I

    I think this is what the Germans were referring to yesterday.
    The answer is you negotiate.
    Except we do not. We seem to be incapable of putting together even a basic negotiating strategy that lacks internal self-contradictions.

    Instead we roll up with a list of demands that verge on the insane (such as wanting to leave whilst retaining the benefits of membership) and then act surprised when nobody can give us those demands.
    We are negotiating with ourselves. Always have been. Still are. We have yet to agree.
    The negotiations with the EU were, and still are, a theoretical, theatrical, almost metaphysical distraction.
    Exactly! I think that you have summed it up very well :+1:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    I feel the barely perceptible twinges of sympathy for Theresa May and then she comes with this nonsense. The woman's dangerous.

    And on the topic of No Deal, let me make this as clear as I can. You avoid No Deal like you avoid bubonic plague. You do actually rule it out. It's bonkers we're even discussing this. We even have the normally ultra sensible Mr G NW saying Mrs May can't rule out the plague, sorry No Deal, because it might us look weak in front of the EU. Those whom the gods wish to destroy ...
    Why? It removes probably the most damaging scenario for the EU from the table.
    This ultra sensible Big G NW understands you do not take your ultimate card of not agreeing in any deal off the table.

    It is not my preferred option but option it is and must remain until replaced with a sensible compromise
    Self harm isn't a card. Surely?
    The EU have basically said the same thing the entire time, and it isn't helping either of us reach an agreement. Even if it is self harm if MPs won't stop it it can still happen, and the EU, which does hold the far stronger hand, has so much more flexibility to convince us not to do something stupid, rather than assume we won't do something stupid. That kind of complacency is why they react with contempt to criticism, assuming only stupid people complain.

    I'd rather we not take such a risk, and they are not obliged to give in (nor do they appear likely to do so), but they are going to help create the situation they claim not to want.

    But then, given they now appear to be pushing remain, while they didn't start out trying to engineer no deal (I do believe they wanted a deal) they seem quite keen on it now.
    None of this makes any sense to me, or I think to anyone outside the UK. I guess means the outcome is more likely to happen, because no one, as far as we can tell, will stop it happening.

    Exactly. Let's say either our decision to leave was irrational, or they merely see it as irrational and cannot understand it. Neither bodes well for a deal, since they don't think we'll do things even though we've done other things they don't think we'll do, or just don't understand the decision. We've hardly helped by being so riven with infighting and confusion. I definitely underestimated this aspect, since I assumed the sides were at least playing up that they did not understand each other a little, and so I miscalculated the risk of this current stupid outcome.
  • notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274
    We were friends with people in European countries before we joined the EU and we will remain as friendly after we leave the EU. Why would it be otherwise?
    You ever been divorced ?
    You ever seen a happy couple forced to continue living together because their lawyers screwed up the divorce papers?
    I think it’s more about the casual view that we can all be friends afterwards. My experience is that is quite rare, can take many years even when it works.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1086319027880951808

    Corbyn wheeling out his heavy artillery. Stopping No Deal is obviously soooooo important to him.

    Yeah.

    Will strengthen the leave voting areas against him and put his mps in those seats under threat

    He is not good at politics

    I think I have already seen a hard hitting leave poster on this against Corbyn
    ........
    Her answer is you want to surrender to Brussels and hand them the ace that they do not need to do anything while we fly the white flag
    Hasn't she been saying for two months that her deal is the only possible deal? Why would we now believe that she has the capacity to make the EU do anything?
    No deal is default. As the clock runs down the EU have hard decisions to make.

    Article in one of the Irish papers with direct attack on Ireland and the EU over the looming economic catastrophe and they must do a deal with UK. Germany beginning to panic with recession looming and thousands of unsaleable cars.

    Italy demanding today the EU negotiate the deal. As the clocks run down economic and political forces will collide and of course we can run the clock down to the 29th March as we can the day before revoke A50, and there is nothing the EU can do about that
    29th March is a bit late for those who ha execution.
    The tire jobs are not being outsourced to an EU country at all.
    Is this what Brexiteers wanted a Global Briton for: To transfer jobs from the UK to other parts of the world?
    The world's customers (including those in the UK and business customers) are best served if products and services are provided by the most competitive source.
    How’s that gonna work if we’re all unemployed and can’t afford anything?

    Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.
    so Tory policy is do sod all basically

    death by abstract theories
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
    With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    "At least nine government ministers, three of whom are in the cabinet, have instructed their constituency associations to prepare for an early election, the New Statesman has learnt. Four of them named 28 February as the date."

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/01/three-cabinet-ministers-have-told-their-local-parties-prepare-general

    Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?
    You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.
    "Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?
    In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
    I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.
    On that I'd actually disagree, even as bad as May's response is likely to be (probably "We've tried to talk it out, we've not come up with anything, so I'll ask for an extension but who knows if the EU will accept), since a GE is just a can kicking exercise which doesn't even answer the question of what Brexit, if any, people want (unless the LDs win a landslide) or come up with a process to resolve it, unless the returned MPs, for some reason, are more inclined to revoke without a referendum, which is improbable. Every other option would still require compromise, which they could do now and which a GE does not ensure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    I look forward to another round of DUP say it was constructive but the backstop must be dealt with, media reports that the DUP might be bending on something or other, then the DUP come out angrily denying they would ever bend on anything.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    I have sympathy for stupid people for not being as intelligent as me, doesn't mean I'll vote for them.

    "Tony Blair, defending FPTP, argued that other systems give small parties the balance of power, and influence disproportionate to their votes."
    - P. Dorey (2008). The Labour Party and Constitutional Reform: A History of Constitutional Conservatism.

    "Allowing people into the UK parliament who did not finish first in their constituency was described by David Cameron as creating a "Parliament full of second-choices who no one really wanted but didn't really object to either.""
    - David Cameron. "Why keeping first past the post is vital for democracy." Daily Telegraph. 30 Apr 2011

    "Winston Churchill criticised the electoral outcomes of the alternative vote as "determined by the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.""
    - Larry Johnston (2011). Politics: An Introduction to the Modern Democratic State.
    So - three people, who were each given majority power by a minority of the vote, defended the system that gave them that power?

    Are we supposed to find this surprising or illuminating in any way?
    AV is NOT proportional!
    Um - correct. So?
    Those three leaders are/were right in summising it's a crap voting system.
    It's not as if they had any stake in wanting to say that, is it?
    Oh, wait...
    For a scientist to be relying on appeal to authority (especially authority with an obvious bias) is a little disappointing.
    And how about the authority of people like you and me? Remember the OTHER referendum, back in 2011?

    No to AV: 68%
    Yes to AV: 32%
    And argumentem ad populum, now?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,738
    kle4 said:

    I look forward to another round of DUP say it was constructive but the backstop must be dealt with, media reports that the DUP might be bending on something or other, then the DUP come out angrily denying they would ever bend on anything.
    “We gave the Prime Minister her hors d'oeuvres.”
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
    With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....
    I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    kle4 said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:
    Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?
    You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.
    "Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?
    In 2017 Parliament voted to dissolve itself the day after the announcement, though the dissolution didn't happen for another week or so and the final election was 7 weeks to the day after the announcement. No idea if it can be sped up at all, my guess is that there is no need for any delay between the dissolution vote and it happening, but for practical reasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
    I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.
    On that I'd actually disagree, even as bad as May's response is likely to be (probably "We've tried to talk it out, we've not come up with anything, so I'll ask for an extension but who knows if the EU will accept), since a GE is just a can kicking exercise which doesn't even answer the question of what Brexit, if any, people want (unless the LDs win a landslide) or come up with a process to resolve it, unless the returned MPs, for some reason, are more inclined to revoke without a referendum, which is improbable. Every other option would still require compromise, which they could do now and which a GE does not ensure.
    Interesting viewpoint and I admit you might be right. But...

    I worry her plan B is going to be "I'll try to get a few tweaks to my Deal and we'll vote again".

    For a GE she would have to say "Vote Tory to implement my Deal". If she wins a majority, her MPs would find it very hard to rebel after that manifesto was endorsed. If she loses, it's somebody else's problem.

    And in either case we'd need an A50 extension but I think the EU would ok that if there is a GE announced.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    After pudding, they get given their tickets to Brussels. Her Plan B, to be announced to the House: "I'm sending you guys, to see what deal you can extract that works for NI."

    "Do we have to take Robbins?"

    "Hell no......."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    In all seriousness I don't know what they could possibly discuss other than social matters. Everyone knows where the DUP stand, and they don't have enough to lose in the short or medium term to possibly back down, and May cannot give them what they want. Or anything she can give them costs her a bunch more Cabinet Members and votes.

    So I'd advise them to just relax, play a boardgame or something.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469

    Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.

    Yeah sure. Everyone's going to vote for that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
    With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....
    I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.
    +1 Well said!
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
    With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....
    I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.
    +1 Well said!
    :)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Survival of the fittest. So evolution will take effect.

    Yeah sure. Everyone's going to vote for that.
    Don't worry, the voting booths will be behind an assualt course so the weak don't get to vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    Quincel said:

    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:
    Um, hold on a minute. Under FTPA 2011 as amended you need 14 days to do the second vote of confidence, then the washup, then 25 working days to the election. That's a minimum of seven weeks. If she started yesterday the earliest she could do it would be March 7th. What am I missing?
    You don't need the 14 days if Parliament votes for an election, like they did in 2017. Since Labour surely would back such a motion if Theresa May announced one it would sail through and no 14 days needed.
    "Sail thru" is not zero time. To hit Feb 28th she'd have to dissolve parliament next Thursday at the latest. Is that even possible?
    In 2017 Parliaeasons of finalising legislation a few days minimum is desirable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election#Timetable
    I don't say it's likely but it's probably a better plan than the one she is actually going to present on Monday.
    Ons not ensure.
    Interesting viewpoint and I admit you might be right. But...

    I worry her plan B is going to be "I'll try to get a few tweaks to my Deal and we'll vote again".

    For a GE she would have to say "Vote Tory to implement my Deal". If she wins a majority, her MPs would find it very hard to rebel after that manifesto was endorsed. If she loses, it's somebody else's problem.

    And in either case we'd need an A50 extension but I think the EU would ok that if there is a GE announced.
    That would be a mistake of them in my opinion. They claim to want an end to this, a GE does not do that.

    On May's potential plan B, yes possibly. I assumed in December one reason the MV would not be pulled would be that May would use that loss to say to the EU 'Look, I cannot get this deal through and here's the proof, but I might be able if you tell Leo to back down already'. Probably wouldn't work, but she'd have the weight of parliament behind her.

    But she pulled it anyway, said she was going to try to negotiate a few tweaks, and bugger all has happened in a month. That plan B was a bit optimistic in December, now it is a joke. Not least with the EU making a push for remain, they have no reason to bend for a deal, as has been made clear they think we're nuts and so don't believe we'll truly quit if there's no deal.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006

    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
    With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....
    I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.
    I know. I was teasing. It’s quite touching. And it is things like that that make me sad we are leaving the EU.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626
    Scott_P said:
    Excellent.

    Believe we're going No Deal yet, Brussels?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Scott_P said:
    The vote failed primarily because of the backstop, so she is asking them to move on the backstop. What's the story?
  • Ben Bradshaw just shows how poor mps knowledge is

    He just said that if the Brexiteers want their brexit, the idea they could get the deal they want through the HOC is for the birds

    While he voted against A50, 498 of his colleagues did making A50 no deal default

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    I don't understand their confusion. Of course her demands remain the same - she told them she couldn't get it through without X, and she was right (whether even with X, whatever that is, she could get it through is also questionable). Do they expect her to be more flexible after parliament told her the plan is already unacceptable, and thus (for at least 100+ of those against it) giving the EU more is even more unacceptable.

    We hear a lot about the EU not bluffing. Well May has hardly been bluffing for the last 6 months - her position is so weak and they surely can see that, they know she cannot force an agreement on parliament.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,738

    Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.
    “Pineapple and cheese on a stick, anyone?”
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    I see that Question Time is now merely a vehicle for encouraging illegitimate criticism of Diane Abbot. Names are being collected and the hit list will be a long one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163


    Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.
    Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    kle4 said:


    Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.
    Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.
    He will keep himself busy putting the bins out
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,738

    Ben Bradshaw just shows how poor mps knowledge is

    He just said that if the Brexiteers want their brexit, the idea they could get the deal they want through the HOC is for the birds

    While he voted against A50, 498 of his colleagues did making A50 no deal default

    Article 50 is revocable, as Donald Tusk told them before they voted. There is a legal default, but a political choice between three options: deal, no deal, Remain.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    This guy is always good, but this para is a cracker:

    Despite their political differences, May and Corbyn are remarkably similar in their grotesque rigidity, and their slightly tetchy muleishness born of a mediocrity of character, intellect and judgment. Indeed the most notable thing about the closing speeches in the ‘no confidence’ debate was that they provided devastating critiques of both party leaders.

    http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/01/a-dangerous-political-void.html
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    notme2 said:

    German Green MEP on Sky at the moment love bombing us Brits. Must be getting serious now.

    This one?

    https://twitter.com/TerryReintke/status/1075794829878198274

    Why does she insist on using all capitals except for the letter ‘e’?
    i and e both in lower case.

    So vowels are in lower case. Consonants in upper case.
    With that kind of mentalisim, well rid....
    I think her message was one of reaching out and positivity - unlike Brexit and many of its supporters.
    I know. I was teasing. It’s quite touching. And it is things like that that make me sad we are leaving the EU.
    !?!

    Are you sure that's you notme?

    :wink:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    About that labour recovery in Scotland Justin keeps claiming

    Just had a tweet from the Daily Post (North Wales news) that the Scottish labour party have been called out for releasing a promotional video featuring scenes filmed in ..........Wales

    The video for social media shows Richard Leonard discussing labour's vision for Scotland

    It says 'our Country is run by an elite few. It belongs to all of us. Watch and share the three minute 'Vision for Scotland' promotion featuring clips of Scottish scenery, families and businesses'

    At 1.25 mins in the camera pans out to a striking shot of a mountain range ........ Tryfan in the Snowdonia National Park

    Scotland has magnificient mountains and scenery - maybe next time film in Scotland

    As someone unkindly but accurately pointed out, Labour's vision for Scotland is what they're doing in Wales.
    Trying to do.

    Conwy Council are going to increase our rates by between 9.5% and 11.5% in April and we have a four weekly bin collection
    Pfft Your council tax is well cheap compared to mine.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2019
    The BBC's re-boot of Question Time with new presenter Fiona Bruce runs into one or two difficulties.

    "Diane Abbott accuses BBC Question Time of legitimising racism

    Labour MP’s spokesperson claims she was mocked and interrupted more than other panellists"


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/18/diane-abbott-accuses-bbc-question-time-of-legitimising-racism
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    matt said:

    I see that Question Time is now merely a vehicle for encouraging illegitimate criticism of Diane Abbot. Names are being collected and the hit list will be a long one.

    deserves everything she gets.. . If she doesn't like the heat...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    This is the same Andrea Leadsom who said that no-deal doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a Withdrawal Agreement.

    These people can't fairly be described as clowns, because they're not even funny any more.
  • kle4 said:


    Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.
    Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.
    He will keep himself busy putting the bins out
    They like North Wales. Should come here, only need to do it once every four weeks !!!!!!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    AndyJS said:

    The BBC's re-boot of Question Time with new presenter Fiona Bruce runs into one or two difficulties.

    "Diane Abbott accuses BBC Question Time of legitimising racism

    Labour MP’s spokesperson claims she was mocked and interrupted more than other panellists"


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/18/diane-abbott-accuses-bbc-question-time-of-legitimising-racism


    What’s that got to do with race?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    kle4 said:


    Blimey, Theresa, Arlene and Nigel. What a fun night that is likely to be.
    Philip May has his work cut out for him trying to just enjoy the evening.
    He will keep himself busy putting the bins out
    They like North Wales. Should come here, only need to do it once every four weeks !!!!!!
    Sounds very efficient!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2019
    kle4 said:



    Exactly. Let's say either our decision to leave was irrational, or they merely see it as irrational and cannot understand it. Neither bodes well for a deal, since they don't think we'll do things even though we've done other things they don't think we'll do, or just don't understand the decision. We've hardly helped by being so riven with infighting and confusion. I definitely underestimated this aspect, since I assumed the sides were at least playing up that they did not understand each other a little, and so I miscalculated the risk of this current stupid outcome.

    Deciding to leave the EU because you don't like it isn't irrational. Maybe you think the downsides are worth it, or maybe you don't think there are any downsides. We can have an argument about it, but the first is a difference of opinion and the second a difference of assessment. There's nothing irrational about it. Deliberately self harming isn't "seen" as irrational. It's the actual definition of the word "irrational"

    I just don't get it.

    The EU's objective from the start has been to get through Brexit with the least additional damage to itself. Maybe that approach lacks imagination and limits the possibilities of a better outcome. If we go down the No Deal route it has every incentive to isolate us further. If we set fire to our ships they will keep theirs well away and ours, as far as possible, out to sea.
This discussion has been closed.