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Totally agreed. And even if someone insists it is not intended to be pejorative (and yet it does only seem to be used against a person to explain the aspects of them which people are critical of), such amateur diagnosis is an unnecessary, unhelpful path to go down in my view. I don't think we need to belabour the point, but I see no reason why it should be used as an insult, and its not a good idea to guess at someone's health.dodrade said:
At the risk of sounding like a snowflake the increasing use of "autistic" in a pejorative context (first used against Gordon Brown I believe) is not a welcome trend.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Can you provide a link to your allegationgrabcocque said:
She's autistic. That's all.Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no doubt that TM legacy will be 'nothing has changed' but no matter your politics you have to be amazed at her resilience and dedication to public serviceFoxy said:So, after a seismic 48 hours...Nothing has changed.
The stalemate continues.
At least we had something to bet on, and I am £100 better off.0 -
She should take no deal off the table.0
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A sudden unexpected GE would give both Labour and the Tories a headache if they simultaneously had leadership contests. If Corbyn wins a GE he's safe, and he'll make himself safer via a very harsh purge. I suggested supporting May's deal above, but clearly the sensible thing (for them) would to have just abstained.dixiedean said:
Because. To state the obvious. Corbyn does not command the loyalty of his MPs. Had he done as you suggest the deal would have still fallen in all probability due to a massive Labour and Tory rebellion. What is more he would have faced an instant leadership challenge with no certainty of winning this time.Omnium said:
I don't really understand why Corbyn didn't just support May's deal, but say it was awful. He'd then have passed his no-confidence motion, and there would be a GE.grabcocque said:As Richard Nabavi pointed out earlier, for Parliament to come to an agreement, options have to be taken off the table.
Corbyn has removed a snap election off the table. That's good, because one fewer option means more scope for an agreement.
It does, however, mean that Jeremy Corbyn will, at long, long, looooong last, need a Brexit policy.
I think that has to be his plan before 29mar. He simply doesn't care about the EU deals or otherwise. He's a revolutionary - he wants us wearing Chairman Corbyn hats. Happily he's a total idiot too, and didn't see his chance.
We have had benign Governments for hundreds of years and that creates huge dangers should the ill-willed ever take the reigns.0 -
Mr Flynn is now confined to bed because of rheumatoid arthritis, but also suffered from pernicious anaemia earlier this year and has been unable to travel to Westminster for some months.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
"I am confined to bed and have four carers a day. My wife, Sam, is wonderful and Jessica Morden [the Newport East MP] has been magnificent.”
He said Brexit was “absolute madness" but vowed to take part in a Commons vote on any Brexit deal presented to Parliament.
"I will go to the Commons on a stretcher if I have to," he added.
(BBC Wales, December)0 -
There will be a second referendum and Remain will win, not because of the merits of staying in, but because the Brexit debate has shown quite clearly that our MPs are not up to the job of governing Britain. Too many of them, in all parties, want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
The best option by far would have negotiated a trade deal along the lines of those like Canada’s and a clean break. That opportunity has been lost. The Norway option is a dead end. It takes us out of the CAP and CFP but they weren’t the main causes that led to Leave winning originally.0 -
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It is setting up for if there is a no deal he will blame May and say if only she has been sensible they could have talked and found unicorn poop together. The reality is he isn’t exactly working very hard to stop brexit.TGOHF said:Corbyn's red lines ..
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/10856261524069294080 -
Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.0 -
Well quite. It might take mere minutes, but it avoids a currently easy retort for the government now.SouthamObserver said:
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why not go into talks with May without pre-condition? That immediately gives Labour the moral high ground. They can then come out of them and say they were pointless because she would not budge.Scott_P said:0 -
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.0 -
Or have led to the fall of the government. It is a two-edged sword.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.0 -
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Tim, who repeated all that rubbish about Seabourne, take care in his allegations? Say it ain't so...Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is not a link to medical confirmation and without it you may want to take care in your allegationsgrabcocque said:
She's described "as having no friends" by michael goveBig_G_NorthWales said:
Can you provide a link to your allegationgrabcocque said:
She's autistic. That's all.Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no doubt that TM legacy will be 'nothing has changed' but no matter your politics you have to be amazed at her resilience and dedication to public serviceFoxy said:So, after a seismic 48 hours...Nothing has changed.
The stalemate continues.
At least we had something to bet on, and I am £100 better off.
People have said she lacks warmth and personality on first meeting.
She even has the autistic facial structure, wide eyes and cat face.
It has variously been said that she is ‘fundamentally unknowable’, ‘aloof’, ’reticent’, ‘self-contained’ and ‘sphinx like’.
She shows every single trait of somebody with autism. Her absurd, self-defeating stubbornness, secrecy and absolute imperviousness to either shame or change are all just part of May's neurological makeup.
Theresa May is neurologically incapable of the task to which we have set her. In many ways it's cruel, because we're torturing a helpless innocent.0 -
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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*HINT* : Jezza wants no deal..SouthamObserver said:
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why not go into talks with May without pre-condition? That immediately gives Labour the moral high ground. They can then come out of them and say they were pointless because she would not budge.Scott_P said:0 -
Well, if you are Labour leader you refuse to talk about it.dixiedean said:If one is speeding towards an oncoming lorry, and 2 passengers think we should swerve to the left and 2 to the right, what is the responsible driver to do? Especially when a fifth is urging you to speed up and keep straight on.
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Until something is agreed no deal cannot be ruled out. No, refusing to do something is not blackmail, even if it is bloody stupid. And if it is, is not refusing to budge on their own side not also blackmail?grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
The blackmail talk is among the silliest of the claims around this issue. May's actions have been pigheaded and self defeating at times, and I sure don't want no deal, but it's not blackmail to hold firm, when the other side is also holding firm. What, they'll allow no deal because she won't rule out no deal?0 -
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)
Opposition is trickier to calculate.
Starting from tonight's total we need to add 10 DUP. So 316.
Then what do Ivan Lewis, Frank Field, Onasunya, Flynn, Woodcock do on a vote they all know is going to a knife edge ?0 -
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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The EU would love that.Jonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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So cross party talks are pointless then?grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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The EU is doing a pretty fine job of refusing concessions. They have been clear. Any concessions require a quid pro quo. Those insisting on wanting movement around the backstop need to front up what they will give up. Gibraltar? FOM? More money? Fishing?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Corbyn wouldn’t enter into talks with May even if No Deal were off the table. He is not interested in Brexit. He just wants power. Propping up May doesn’t help him one bit. All the talk about talks is just posturing.grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.0 -
I know that. He always has. But this is not a good way of controlling the narrative when it happens. He is looking to keen for one right now.TGOHF said:
*HINT* : Jezza wants no deal..SouthamObserver said:
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why not go into talks with May without pre-condition? That immediately gives Labour the moral high ground. They can then come out of them and say they were pointless because she would not budge.Scott_P said:
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Wonder why........FrancisUrquhart said:
It is setting up for if there is a no deal he will blame May and say if only she has been sensible they could have talked and found unicorn poop together. The reality is he isn’t exactly working very hard to stop brexit.TGOHF said:Corbyn's red lines ..
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/10856261524069294080 -
political declarationFrancisUrquhart said:
So cross party talks are pointless then?grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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The two referendum options capture the wishes only of two of the three factions, Remain and Soft Brexit, and disenfranchises Hard Brexiters. Why?
A third option remains - extension of A50 to allow the EU and UK sufficient time to make as many pragmatic and mutually acceptable arrangements for a No Deal Brexit as possible before pulling the plug.
So, my suggestion for the second referendum, to honour the first while asking for guidance on how to effect Brexit, would be between May's Deal and this option, with Remain not being an option (having already been rejected by the electorate).0 -
Because he's boxed in to the process in exactly the same way as May is.Scott_P said:
We may be on a road that has no turns.0 -
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Well, Corbyn's strategy is to try to maximise chaos with the Tories at the wheel. If it looks as if the tin-eared automaton is going to drive the country over the cliff edge, then why would Corbyn want to stop her?kle4 said:
The blackmail talk is among the silliest of the claims around this issue. May's actions have been pigheaded and self defeating at times, and I sure don't want no deal, but it's not blackmail to hold firm, when the other side is also holding firm. What, they'll allow no deal because she won't rule out no deal?
Her inhuman stubbornness and omnidirectional incompetence means she's driving us ever closer to No Deal. Stands to reason Corbyn needs her to be at the wheel when it happens, and he's doing all he can to keep her there.0 -
It is pointless because no deal is not possible. The EU have said they would do time limited deals in a number of areas so May could just say I have signed these deals so there is a deal.grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.0 -
Jonathan maintaining the Labour tradition of negotiating with the EU by giving things up for nothing.MarqueeMark said:
The EU would love that.Jonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Yes but escaping the blame for them failing is a serious business.FrancisUrquhart said:
So cross party talks are pointless then?grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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So, Mr Corbyn, you said you talked to the IRA and Hamas without pre-condition to find paths to peace, but you will not speak to the PM without pre-condition to try to find a way to avoid an economic catastrophe for the UK. Why?
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/10856275916781486100 -
Best not to second guess but see how this evolves over the coming weeksdixiedean said:
The EU is doing a pretty fine job of refusing concessions. They have been clear. Any concessions require a quid pro quo. Those insisting on wanting movement around the backstop need to front up what they will give up. Gibraltar? FOM? More money? Fishing?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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A different electorate.MTimT said:So, my suggestion for the second referendum, to honour the first while asking for guidance on how to effect Brexit, would be between May's Deal and this option, with Remain not being an option (having already been rejected by the electorate).
Your plan would disenfranchise all voters who did not vote last last time or have changed their minds.
Hardly democratic...0 -
A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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So even with the DUP Corbyn would still have fallen short.0
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works for meMTimT said:The two referendum options capture the wishes only of two of the three factions, Remain and Soft Brexit, and disenfranchises Hard Brexiters. Why?
A third option remains - extension of A50 to allow the EU and UK sufficient time to make as many pragmatic and mutually acceptable arrangements for a No Deal Brexit as possible before pulling the plug.
So, my suggestion for the second referendum, to honour the first while asking for guidance on how to effect Brexit, would be between May's Deal and this option, with Remain not being an option (having already been rejected by the electorate).0 -
Of course that approach doesn't work when the economy is sailing along in 2022 and Brexit is a distant memory.grabcocque said:
Well, Corbyn's strategy is to try to maximise chaos with the Tories at the wheel. If it looks as if the tin-eared automaton is going to drive the country over the cliff edge, then why would Corbyn want to stop her?kle4 said:
The blackmail talk is among the silliest of the claims around this issue. May's actions have been pigheaded and self defeating at times, and I sure don't want no deal, but it's not blackmail to hold firm, when the other side is also holding firm. What, they'll allow no deal because she won't rule out no deal?
Her inhuman stubbornness and omnidirectional incompetence means she's driving us ever closer to No Deal. Stands to reason Corbyn needs her to be at the wheel when it happens, and he's doing all he can to keep her there.0 -
There is nothing strong about threatening to shoot yourself in the foot. We don’t want no deal, she doesn’t want no deal, everyone knows that so for goodness sake let’s move on. Sure the ERG will cry, but they won’t accept anything but no deal. So we lose nothing.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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2 absolute crackers in 2 days.Sandpit said:
The problem is that no-deal can’t be ruled out. It’s what happens by default if nothing else is agreed.TGOHF said:May should suggest that if she is ruling out no deal to have talks then the opposition rule out a second referendum.
As many others have said, people need to quickly decide what they do want, not what they don’t. Otherwise it’s going to be no deal.
Matt, as always, got it spot on the other day.
https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/10848677776792944640 -
In my professional life I negotiated countless millions of pounds of deals and the first lesson in any deal is you do not take walking away off the tablegrabcocque said:
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Not true - rejoiners could all vote LD and be back in the EU.Scott_P said:
A different electorate.MTimT said:So, my suggestion for the second referendum, to honour the first while asking for guidance on how to effect Brexit, would be between May's Deal and this option, with Remain not being an option (having already been rejected by the electorate).
Your plan would disenfranchise all voters who did not vote last last time or have changed their minds.
Hardly democratic...
The door is always open to sign up again to the club.0 -
It’s rheumatoid arthritis, which can be absolutely debilitating. My grandmother had it.ydoethur said:
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.0 -
"If you don't give us what we want, we'll stay" is a more effective threat than "if you don't give us what we want, we'll shoot ourselves in the head".MarqueeMark said:
The EU would love that.Jonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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It's funny, but for the last month when May and the EU said again and again and again that this was the best and only deal, you took it is absolute truth and ridiculed others who said another deal was possible.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Best not to second guess but see how this evolves over the coming weeksdixiedean said:
The EU is doing a pretty fine job of refusing concessions. They have been clear. Any concessions require a quid pro quo. Those insisting on wanting movement around the backstop need to front up what they will give up. Gibraltar? FOM? More money? Fishing?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Now, miraculously, you think the EU are lying when they carry on saying this deal is the best and only deal available?
I really hope you don't think too hard about the cognitive dissonance.0 -
Daft. Remain is perfectly viable and should not be artificially excluded. If the people don’t want it they can say do.MTimT said:The two referendum options capture the wishes only of two of the three factions, Remain and Soft Brexit, and disenfranchises Hard Brexiters. Why?
A third option remains - extension of A50 to allow the EU and UK sufficient time to make as many pragmatic and mutually acceptable arrangements for a No Deal Brexit as possible before pulling the plug.
So, my suggestion for the second referendum, to honour the first while asking for guidance on how to effect Brexit, would be between May's Deal and this option, with Remain not being an option (having already been rejected by the electorate).0 -
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Absolutely , May is certainly making a good claim to be the worst PM in living memory.grabcocque said:
Well, Corbyn's strategy is to try to maximise chaos with the Tories at the wheel. If it looks as if the tin-eared automaton is going to drive the country over the cliff edge, then why would Corbyn want to stop her?kle4 said:
The blackmail talk is among the silliest of the claims around this issue. May's actions have been pigheaded and self defeating at times, and I sure don't want no deal, but it's not blackmail to hold firm, when the other side is also holding firm. What, they'll allow no deal because she won't rule out no deal?
Her inhuman stubbornness and omnidirectional incompetence means she's driving us ever closer to No Deal. Stands to reason Corbyn needs her to be at the wheel when it happens, and he's doing all he can to keep her there.
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According to my maths, if the DUP had voted against the Government tonight then the VoNC would've succeeded by a margin of one.Chris_A said:So even with the DUP Corbyn would still have fallen short.
Note: It would appear that the three ex-Labour abstainers/absentees tonight were John Woodcock, Ivan Lewis and Fiona Onasanya.0 -
No Deal is the "do as I say or I shoot myself in the head" school of negotiation. I presume you never tried anything that fucking dumb or you'd be bankrupt.Big_G_NorthWales said:
In my professional life I negotiated countless millions of pounds of deals and the first lesson in any deal is you do not take walking away off the tablegrabcocque said:
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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They want us to stay..... so remind me how this "threat" works....williamglenn said:
"If you don't give us what we want, we'll stay" is a more effective threat than "if you don't give us what we want, we'll shoot ourselves in the head".MarqueeMark said:
The EU would love that.Jonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Making May's deal an explicit confidence vote triggers either a General Election or the deal passes. It *moves things forward*. I have no idea if there is a majority for either, and that was not my argument.stodge said:
Is there a majority for either option apart from in your head?Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Walking away = the status quo. In Brexit terms, the common understanding of walking away = revocation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
In my professional life I negotiated countless millions of pounds of deals and the first lesson in any deal is you do not take walking away off the tablegrabcocque said:
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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Much easier to talk to your friends than your enemies...SouthamObserver said:So, Mr Corbyn, you said you talked to the IRA and Hamas without pre-condition to find paths to peace, but you will not speak to the PM without pre-condition to try to find a way to avoid an economic catastrophe for the UK. Why?
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/10856275916781486100 -
It has not been lost 100%. There is a WTO provision Article 24 that says that whilst negotiating a new deal all tariffs and terms of previous trade can stay the same for a reasonable period of time whilst the new deal is being negotiated.AmpfieldAndy said:There will be a second referendum and Remain will win, not because of the merits of staying in, but because the Brexit debate has shown quite clearly that our MPs are not up to the job of governing Britain. Too many of them, in all parties, want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
The best option by far would have negotiated a trade deal along the lines of those like Canada’s and a clean break. That opportunity has been lost. The Norway option is a dead end. It takes us out of the CAP and CFP but they weren’t the main causes that led to Leave winning originally.
So if the EU and UK agree this could be invoked with no other parts of the WA in force. Solves the backstop in the short term to get Leo over the line in his next election.0 -
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
They want us to change our minds. That's not quite the same thing.Floater said:
They want us to stay..... so remind me how this "threat" works....williamglenn said:
"If you don't give us what we want, we'll stay" is a more effective threat than "if you don't give us what we want, we'll shoot ourselves in the head".MarqueeMark said:
The EU would love that.Jonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
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You have it the wrong way around. Corbyn is very interested in Brexit as Brexit allows a future radical left government to prop up failing industries and renationalise. Corbyn doesn't care about power. He would hate the responsibility that comes with it, Corbyn likes to snipe from the sidelines. That is what he has been doing as Leader of the Opposition and that is why he is a useless Leader of the Opposition. He can slag off the government with impunity, and if we no deal Brexit he can carp on about heartless Tories having impoverished the working classes. Useless, but certainly not power-crazed.AmpfieldAndy said:
Corbyn wouldn’t enter into talks with May even if No Deal were off the table. He is not interested in Brexit. He just wants power. Propping up May doesn’t help him one bit.grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.0 -
Documentary on jezzas big buddy coming up on bbc2 at 9pm.0
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Nailed itFrancisUrquhart said:
Much easier to talk to your friends than your enemies...SouthamObserver said:So, Mr Corbyn, you said you talked to the IRA and Hamas without pre-condition to find paths to peace, but you will not speak to the PM without pre-condition to try to find a way to avoid an economic catastrophe for the UK. Why?
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/10856275916781486100 -
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)0 -
Unlikely she would have done so had Milliband still been Labour leader.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Lady Hermon voted with the governmentstodge said:
From 650, deduct the 7 SF members, the Speaker and the three Deputy Speakers (2 Labour and 1 Conservative) so that takes us to 639 voting members.Sunil_Prasannan said:325+306 = 631
12 non-voters?
Nominally, CON (316) plus DUP (10) should have 326 leaving 313 "opposition" MPs but that includes 6 ex-Labour MP, Sylvia Harmon and Stephen Lloyd who are the 8 "Independent" MPs.
As there is apparently no pairing, the CON-DUP total looks light by one but if we exclude the two tellers that would suggest one Independent MP voted with the Government.
On the Opposition side, the affiliated MP total is 305 so assuming two tellers again, three of the Independents must have voted with the Opposition so four Independents must have abstained or been absent.
No doubt, details will be forthcoming.0 -
The second is to get a win-win deal. Which the EU seem to have forgotten.Big_G_NorthWales said:
In my professional life I negotiated countless millions of pounds of deals and the first lesson in any deal is you do not take walking away off the tablegrabcocque said:
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
0 -
In 2049, unlocked Cabinet papers will reveal how May and Corbyn worked closely on their secret plan to ensure No Deal passed a House set against it as an outcome.....0
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You saidwilliamglenn said:
They want us to change our minds. That's not quite the same thing.Floater said:
They want us to stay..... so remind me how this "threat" works....williamglenn said:
"If you don't give us what we want, we'll stay" is a more effective threat than "if you don't give us what we want, we'll shoot ourselves in the head".MarqueeMark said:
The EU would love that.Jonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
"If you don't give us what we want, we'll stay" is a more effective threat
Which is bonkers putting it nicely0 -
More stonewalling. The more he prats about, the more the clock runs down. He wants No Deal.SouthamObserver said:So, Mr Corbyn, you said you talked to the IRA and Hamas without pre-condition to find paths to peace, but you will not speak to the PM without pre-condition to try to find a way to avoid an economic catastrophe for the UK. Why?
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/10856275916781486100 -
Apart from your unacceptable language you show no knowledge of negotiation and in virtually every case it worked often upto minutes from signing contractgrabcocque said:
No Deal is the "do as I say or I shoot myself in the head" school of negotiation. I presume you never tried anything that fucking dumb or you'd be bankrupt.Big_G_NorthWales said:
In my professional life I negotiated countless millions of pounds of deals and the first lesson in any deal is you do not take walking away off the tablegrabcocque said:
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
0 -
Jez becomes PM because May is completely dire. Then we get Jez no deal, which will be about 1000 times worse than a Tory no deal.Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)0 -
-
Who selects Tory candidates, the Central Office or the CPs?Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Ah okay. That doesn’t sound like something that’s likely to improve with treatment, in which case maybe it’s better that he takes the Chiltern Hundreds.ydoethur said:
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.0 -
How about numpties among the pro second referendum school bringing down the government? I suspect the likes of Grieve at al will bring the gov't down to avoid a no deal scenarioMaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Well, he is bedridden, but he also said he was determined to vote on the Brexit deal if he had to be stretchered in to the commons. And in fairness whatever the faults of the Labour left they have always been very assiduous about attending the Commons to vote and take part in debates on behalf of their constituents if humanly possible.rpjs said:
It’s rheumatoid arthritis, which can be absolutely debilitating. My grandmother had it.ydoethur said:
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.
So I am wondering if that is the only problem or if he is now too ill to be moved.0 -
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
I thought she ceased being pro-Tory in the wake of the "UCUNF" debacle!Pulpstar said:
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)0 -
She was, for a long time. In fact she resigned from the UUP over their decision to resume formal links with the Tories.Pulpstar said:
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)
She seems markedly less pro-Corbyn however.0 -
grabcocque said:
Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.0 -
I always assumed voting against party position in a VONC = whip withdrawn so you couldn't stand at next GE.MTimT said:
Who selects Tory candidates, the Central Office or the CPs?Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Aah! Understand now.Pulpstar said:
I always assumed voting against party position in a VONC = whip withdrawn so you couldn't stand at next GE.MTimT said:
Who selects Tory candidates, the Central Office or the CPs?Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
I didn't think Vince could get any older and still be moving about but I underestimated him.0
-
"All party talks" in that context meant something different.AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Well she is certainly supporting May and furthermore May's deal, so she is more useful than the Moggs, Heidi Allens and DUP right now to good governance.ydoethur said:
She was, for a long time. In fact she resigned from the UUP over their decision to resume formal links with the Tories.Pulpstar said:
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)
She seems markedly less pro-Corbyn however.0 -
An interesting post.dots said:Wot now? I say look at how we got here. To be fair to May, Cammo’s policy this will be settled once and for all with remain/leave referendum looks worst decision ever in British politics, putting out a fire by pouring petrol all over it. And some people think it’s good idea to have another one, the fire can be put out by adding even more petrol?
Whether what is Brexit is clear or not, what is role of parliament in delivering ref result? should parliament have a meaningful say, especially to fill in variances where voters were only asked to provide one dimensional answer to multifaceted outcome? We traditionally have representative democracy, a conviction it helps us achieve strong outcomes, strong as in consensual, strong as in delivering results. Let’s remind ourselves what representative democracy is. Edmund Burke (who some call Father of Conservatism): Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion. But Voxpop voters post ref what you hear is, we told them what to do, they should represent us by getting on and doing it. As both executive and parliament argue for authority to shape brexit, they have been cuffing each other with two different forms of democracy - at what point have politicians, parliament and the public actually been on same page what Brexit is, and how referendum result works alongside representative democracy?
This lack of clarity is basis of the gridlock, not normal party politics. with all this lack of clarity we can go round and round and remain the laughing stock of the world for ever. But if you listen out to the media, read political blogs, looking for this lack of clarity becoming addressed, it’s not. A crisis not going away until it is.
I think the basic problem is only a small part of the population understand the issue and the complexities arising from Brexit. People, particularly vocal Leave supporting individuals seem to think the decision and method of Leaving has little consequence for Government, Parliament, Business and individuals. It is one of the paradox's about Brexit that those members of the public who complain loudest about the EU, do not seem to understand how just leaving will blow the lives apart of millions. They claim economists, trade advisors, business leaders, health managers and others are part of project fear and it will all be alright. David Cameron did make a very poor judgement in calling that referendum but the current PM has built on the foundation of his misjudgement and poured petrol on the mess that could engulf us all. Maybe fighting fire with fire is the only way out via a second referendum?0 -
Okay Del Boy. I'm sure your big swinging dick days are legendary. In the meantime we're talking serious stuff not you doing your Important Businessman cosplay.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Apart from your unacceptable language you show no knowledge of negotiation and in virtually every case it worked often upto minutes from signing contract
Theresa May wants to hold a gun to the nation's head. Labour should not, will not be part of that.
0 -
Only because the government spent the last three years or so fannying about instead of mitigating the effects of no deal. In an alternate universe we waited for two years to serve A50 and spent that time rebuilding those neglected parts of the economy and rebuilding our regulatory and general oversight capacity, hired proper trade negotiation experts rather than dump Robbins in it. We'd have been ready for no deal and we would have had the ability to walk away, and now with the EU economy going down the pan us walking away would hurt both sides equally.grabcocque said:
No Deal is the "do as I say or I shoot myself in the head" school of negotiation. I presume you never tried anything that fucking dumb or you'd be bankrupt.Big_G_NorthWales said:
In my professional life I negotiated countless millions of pounds of deals and the first lesson in any deal is you do not take walking away off the tablegrabcocque said:
Big G, magic unicorns are not your style.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot know how this will evolve. That is your opinion but there are othersgrabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Unfortunately the PM wasted time, kicked the can down the road and the Chancellor sabotaged no deal planning as a matter of course.
So we are where we are.
I still hope Parliament sees sense and votes through the deal on the 28th of March.0 -
1. She can, it is entirely within the government's giftSean_F said:grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.
2. Oh yes it is
3. He wants Tory no deal, which he is seen to oppose.0 -
Isn't saying take away the backstop another way of saying no deal?MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Not sure it would be that successful though. If 110 stood together, particularly if their CPs were very pro-Brexit, it would be a brave Party that withdrew that many whips simultaneously. It could be shown to be an empty threat, even before there were a chance to deploy.Pulpstar said:
I always assumed voting against party position in a VONC = whip withdrawn so you couldn't stand at next GE.MTimT said:
Who selects Tory candidates, the Central Office or the CPs?Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0
