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That is rather shocking at first glance.tlg86 said:Totally off topic, but this statistic caught my eye:
https://tinyurl.com/ydgpo9hj
More than half of motorists screened during a summer crackdown on drug-driving failed roadside tests, figures have shown.
An average of 37 drivers a day were caught driving under the influence of banned substances, or 57% of the 1,962 motorists tested.
I knew drug driving was a big issue, I just didn't realise how big.
On further reflection, I presume the testing must have been heavily targeted at drivers the police suspected were under the influence of drugs, so I am not sure whether it tells us more about the extent of drug driving or the police's ability to spot drug-drivers from their driving?0 -
n.b. John McDonnell and lynching.Foxy said:
Casuistry.eek said:
I don't think Richard has ever called for there to be violence instead he has merely stated his believe that there would be violence....matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
Just like Enoch Powell.
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I thought it couldn’t be pulled without a vote?CarlottaVance said:0 -
We also have TSE's ' leavers really are cunts'. line. I think his view will predominate. I've had Remainers calling me a racist cunt for the last two years. I doubt that will change, despite your voice of reason.Barnesian said:
I'm a Remainer. Look at my response today.glw said:
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.Barnesian said:2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.0 -
This was my thinking. I might be wrong !Gallowgate said:
I thought it couldn’t be pulled without a vote?CarlottaVance said:0 -
As a 13 year old in 1973 the sudden lack of television during the power cuts came as a massive culture shock. Still, on the plus side I learnt how to spell via candlelit games of scrabble!philiph said:
These days there is always the BBQ for an emergency.Polruan said:
Is that a recent change? I’ve got a Smeg range cooker (gas hob) which I guess is 10 years old and that works fine even when unplugged. The oven’s electric so that slightly less so.Richard_Tyndall said:
Wouldn't work these days unfortunately. Our gas cooker was a lifesaver during the power cuts in the 70s but today they are all fitted with electronic switches to turn off the gas if there is no power. Basically no electricity no gas.DavidL said:
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.TOPPING said:
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?DavidL said:
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?TOPPING said:
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.FrancisUrquhart said:
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.eek said:
Next decade? next half century more likely....Scott_P said:
LOLRoyalBlue said:I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves0 -
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.0 -
@TOPPING and @Benpointer - yes, frustrating that it doesn't say whether it was a random test or something else. I suspect it might have been on the basis that testing for drugs, as I understand it, is a lot harder than testing for alcohol.0
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It can't. It's on the order paper having been scheduled by a programme motion. It will require another programme motion to remove.Gallowgate said:
I thought it couldn’t be pulled without a vote?CarlottaVance said:
Now, programme motions are not typically voted on, but I think if Mrs Leadsom were to move a PM to delay the vote, she will be pressed to a division and she will lose.0 -
I think platform is important here, a 'prediction' of violence on PB.com I'd read simply as a prediction. The same 'prediction' on twitter, particularly if the person has a large number of followers is somewhat different.Foxy said:
Casuistry.eek said:
I don't think Richard has ever called for there to be violence instead he has merely stated his believe that there would be violence....matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
Just like Enoch Powell.0 -
Unlike every other lying, equivocating, reverse ferreting pol (Hi Ruth!), she actually meant it when she said Brexit was a disaster for the whole of the UK.grabcocque said:
Also, worth thanking Nicola Sturgeon's tireless efforts on this front. She's done a great service for the integrity of the Union.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Errr I didn’t call them that, I called them cocks, particularly the ones with the gallows.John_M said:
We also have TSE's ' leavers really are cunts'. line. I think his view will predominate. I've had Remainers calling me a racist cunt for the last two years. I doubt that will change, despite your voice of reason.Barnesian said:
I'm a Remainer. Look at my response today.glw said:
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.Barnesian said:2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.
The big naughty c word I only use in relation to Mark Reckless, which everyone agrees is appropriate if massively understating it.0 -
Not sure how long ago it was introduced but I thought it was more than 10 years ago. By law all cookers must have an inbuilt flame failure device. The flame failure device is part of the gas burner system. The device cuts off the gas supply if the cooker flame extinguishes for any reason. It is usually an electronic device these days and I thought that was the legal requirement but might be wrong.Polruan said:
Is that a recent change? I’ve got a Smeg range cooker (gas hob) which I guess is 10 years old and that works fine even when unplugged. The oven’s electric so that slightly less so.Richard_Tyndall said:
Wouldn't work these days unfortunately. Our gas cooker was a lifesaver during the power cuts in the 70s but today they are all fitted with electronic switches to turn off the gas if there is no power. Basically no electricity no gas.DavidL said:
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.TOPPING said:
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?DavidL said:
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?TOPPING said:
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.FrancisUrquhart said:
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.eek said:
Next decade? next half century more likely....Scott_P said:
LOLRoyalBlue said:I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
I only know this because the bloody thing failed on one of our gas cookers a few years ago and it was a bitch to sort out.0 -
If Brexit is cancelled, I'd expect the public to be further alienated from the political class. It's anyone's guess where that leads to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
It took a while for the impact of the general slowdown in growth after 2000 (and subsequent GFC) to feed through into Western politics, but the impact is clear.
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The only thing that can stop us leaving is parliament voting to overturn the referendum result.kle4 said:
I didn't mean he wants us to remain. I know he doesn't and will fight it. But he and his are preventing us from leaving working hand in hand with remainers. He hopes and assumes we leave in a different way instead but unintended consequences are still consequences. He has been one of the biggest helpers to the remain cause.Donny43 said:
If parliament votes to overturn the referendum result, JRM will vote against.0 -
To all those leavers threatening us with vague but ominous warnings of a gammon uprising:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
Ah, so we are fine considering you a fellow traveller with the IRA then. Good to know.Foxy said:
Casuistry.eek said:
I don't think Richard has ever called for there to be violence instead he has merely stated his believe that there would be violence....matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
Just like Enoch Powell.0 -
Richard I appreciate you are uneasy on this topic and hence don't usually engage but I am happy to explain to you again (at the risk of boring senseless other PB-ers) why the reinstitution of a hard border in Northern Ireland would be deeply unwise.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
That is a world away from you invoking, as @Foxy has noted, Enoch Powell in your predictions about possible violence especially as you have told us your footwear is suitable for engaging in it.0 -
Nevertheless he has been banging on about it with apparent eager anticipation for a while now.Pulpstar said:
I think platform is important here, a 'prediction' of violence on PB.com I'd read simply as a prediction. The same 'prediction' on twitter, particularly if the person has a large number of followers is somewhat different.Foxy said:
Casuistry.eek said:
I don't think Richard has ever called for there to be violence instead he has merely stated his believe that there would be violence....matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
Just like Enoch Powell.
Far right politics and protest are on the rise across the developed West, and the question is why the UK should be immune. I don't see anything in pressing ahead with Brexit, particularly given the likelihood of some damage and disruption after the chaos of the last two years, that might offer us a free pass back to stable consensual centerism.0 -
There’s going to be violence in the event of no deal that leads to a shortage of meds and foods.
Those gallows Leavers are happy to condone might be used on Leavers.
Everything looks messy from now on.0 -
That's not clear actually. The ECJ ruling says "in accordance with our constutional procedures" which means that all May has to do is notify the Council of our decision to revoke Article 50, and BOOM, it's done.Donny43 said:
The only thing that can stop us leaving is parliament voting to overturn the referendum result.kle4 said:
I didn't mean he wants us to remain. I know he doesn't and will fight it. But he and his are preventing us from leaving working hand in hand with remainers. He hopes and assumes we leave in a different way instead but unintended consequences are still consequences. He has been one of the biggest helpers to the remain cause.Donny43 said:
If parliament votes to overturn the referendum result, JRM will vote against.0 -
...yes. And inadvertently Rees Moggs has given remainers that chance.Donny43 said:
The only thing that can stop us leaving is parliament voting to overturn the referendum result.kle4 said:
I didn't mean he wants us to remain. I know he doesn't and will fight it. But he and his are preventing us from leaving working hand in hand with remainers. He hopes and assumes we leave in a different way instead but unintended consequences are still consequences. He has been one of the biggest helpers to the remain cause.Donny43 said:
If parliament votes to overturn the referendum result, JRM will vote against.0 -
I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
All those in favour say aye.0 -
During the three day week one of my colleagues reported that several of her mature trees were felled for firewood without permission by a group of do-gooders led by the minister of the local church!Benpointer said:
As a 13 year old in 1973 the sudden lack of television during the power cuts came as a massive culture shock. Still, on the plus side I learnt how to spell via candlelit games of scrabble!philiph said:
These days there is always the BBQ for an emergency.Polruan said:
Is that a recent change? I’ve got a Smeg range cooker (gas hob) which I guess is 10 years old and that works fine even when unplugged. The oven’s electric so that slightly less so.Richard_Tyndall said:
Wouldn't work these days unfortunately. Our gas cooker was a lifesaver during the power cuts in the 70s but today they are all fitted with electronic switches to turn off the gas if there is no power. Basically no electricity no gas.DavidL said:
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.TOPPING said:
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?DavidL said:
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?TOPPING said:
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.FrancisUrquhart said:
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.eek said:
Next decade? next half century more likely....Scott_P said:
LOLRoyalBlue said:I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
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I disagree. What the ruling gives is 100% certainty that any decision to revoke Article 50 is entirely in our power and there is no need to worry about whether we might get held to ransom or stopped by some minor player in EU27. That's very important, because it makes it possible to put Revoke to a referendum with certainty that it can be delivered - think how chaotic it would be if we held a referendum, the result was Revoke, and then we found we couldn't do it.TOPPING said:As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
Of course, we would still need an Article 50 extension, but that can be obtained in advance.0 -
A shellacking for the tories for startersSean_F said:
If Brexit is cancelled, I'd expect the public to be further alienated from the political class. It's anyone's guess where that leads to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
It took a while for the impact of the general slowdown in growth after 2000 (and subsequent GFC) to feed through into Western politics, but the impact is clear.0 -
Talking about Enoch Powell when I am going to have the whip hand on you lot?
I’m waiting and it is the only reason I haven’t emigrated yet.0 -
Where's the downside?Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for starters0 -
I think you need to ask permission of the Jews who are running the show atm.TheScreamingEagles said:Talking about Enoch Powell when I am going to have the whip hand on you lot?
I’m waiting and it is the only reason I haven’t emigrated yet.0 -
grabcocque said:
I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
Not just the public - I'd imagine many political party activists would shrug and play more golf.Sean_F said:
If Brexit is cancelled, I'd expect the public to be further alienated from the political class. It's anyone's guess where that leads to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
It took a while for the impact of the general slowdown in growth after 2000 (and subsequent GFC) to feed through into Western politics, but the impact is clear.
e.g.
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/12/tory-activists-flatly-refuse-to-deliver-leaflets-backing-mays-eu-deal.html
"plenty of Conservative association officers are not even bothering to collect the proffered supply from their regional and area distribution points. A sizeable majority of associations I have spoken to have avoided, in one way or another, taking receipt of the leaflets, either out of outright opposition, or due to the knowledge their activists wouldn’t deliver them, or in the belief that delivering them will not have a positive effect on voters (or all of the above).
Meanwhile, members who dislike the deal are left wondering if they should donate to the Party in future, if their money is going to be used for campaigns which they strongly disagree with."0 -
If May pulls the vote I think she's gonna get VONCed.
This will be one humiliation too far for her party.0 -
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
No difference Topping. You are happy to raise the spectre of a return to the Troubles as a means to persuade people to support your position. I have never once accused you of actually wishing that state of affairs. I mention that my experience is that there will be violence if Leave is reversed. It is the same.TOPPING said:
Richard I appreciate you are uneasy on this topic and hence don't usually engage but I am happy to explain to you again (at the risk of boring senseless other PB-ers) why the reinstitution of a hard border in Northern Ireland would be deeply unwise.
That is a world away from you invoking, as @Foxy has noted, Enoch Powell in your predictions about possible violence especially as you have told us your footwear is suitable for engaging in it.
My boots you mention were indeed used for giving a good kicking in the past. But that was kicking real fascists from the NF/BNP in London in the early 80s. Unfortunately I wasn't very good at it, hence both hospital and police cell visits.
I really would rather we didn't see a return to those days but I say again that is what you are risking.0 -
Can you point to one post where he has called for violence?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you can't I am sure your apology will be fulsome.
0 -
We need to be clear a Tory Party VONC or a Parliamentary VONC?grabcocque said:If May pulls the vote I think she's gonna get VONCed.
This will be one humiliation too far for her party.0 -
It's ridiculous, prima facie, to think that anyone is going to be cowed by threats of violence from Yaxley-Lennon and his band of merry fuckwits.Slackbladder said:
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
Party. Parliament will need to wait and see what the DUP will do.TheScreamingEagles said:
We need to be clear a Tory Party VONC or a Parliamentary VONC?grabcocque said:If May pulls the vote I think she's gonna get VONCed.
This will be one humiliation too far for her party.0 -
Dumping May gives the best chance of getting the DUP back onside.grabcocque said:
Party. Parliament will need to wait and see what the DUP will do.TheScreamingEagles said:
We need to be clear a Tory Party VONC or a Parliamentary VONC?grabcocque said:If May pulls the vote I think she's gonna get VONCed.
This will be one humiliation too far for her party.
Unless Rudd becomes PM.0 -
The DUP will keep the Gov'ts hands glued to the wheel so long as they're hurtling toward the March 29th cliff edge I think.grabcocque said:
Party. Parliament will need to wait and see what the DUP will do.TheScreamingEagles said:
We need to be clear a Tory Party VONC or a Parliamentary VONC?grabcocque said:If May pulls the vote I think she's gonna get VONCed.
This will be one humiliation too far for her party.0 -
Labour in power obviouslygrabcocque said:
Where's the downside?Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for starters0 -
That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for startersSean_F said:
If Brexit is cancelled, I'd expect the public to be further alienated from the political class. It's anyone's guess where that leads to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
It took a while for the impact of the general slowdown in growth after 2000 (and subsequent GFC) to feed through into Western politics, but the impact is clear.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.0 -
Thats true. I doubt people will be marching in the streets in their millions. If there is a 'backlash' it will be increased disillusionment, and risk of low turnouts, making a breakthrough by a far-right, or far left extremists higher.grabcocque said:
It's ridiculous, prima facie, to think that anyone is going to be cowed by threats of violence from Yaxley-Lennon and his band of merry fuckwits.Slackbladder said:
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
Not necessarily. The Tories might be forced out of office, and A50 revoked by a Labour-led government.Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for startersSean_F said:
If Brexit is cancelled, I'd expect the public to be further alienated from the political class. It's anyone's guess where that leads to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
It took a while for the impact of the general slowdown in growth after 2000 (and subsequent GFC) to feed through into Western politics, but the impact is clear.0 -
Not whilst Corbyn is leader.Sean_F said:
Not necessarily. The Tories might be forced out of office, and A50 revoked by a Labour-led government.Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for startersSean_F said:
If Brexit is cancelled, I'd expect the public to be further alienated from the political class. It's anyone's guess where that leads to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah more Remaniac lies. I have at no point called for violence. I have simply said I expect it to follow if the Leave vote is overturned. As I said to some Remainer loon last week using a similar line, given they are claiming the backstop is necessary to maintain peace in NI, are they to be accused of promoting violence in pursuit of their cause?matt said:
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
If you have nothing actually intelligent to say perhaps you should just keep quiet and save us all a lot of wasted time trying to explain things to you.
It took a while for the impact of the general slowdown in growth after 2000 (and subsequent GFC) to feed through into Western politics, but the impact is clear.0 -
People like an underdog. But people don't want to vote for an underdog. May's only strength is that she's not Jeremy Corbyn.david_herdson said:
That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
0 -
The EU elections will be the perfect place to make a protest vote.Slackbladder said:
Thats true. I doubt people will be marching in the streets in their millions. If there is a 'backlash' it will be increased disillusionment, and risk of low turnouts, making a breakthrough by a far-right, or far left extremists higher.grabcocque said:
It's ridiculous, prima facie, to think that anyone is going to be cowed by threats of violence from Yaxley-Lennon and his band of merry fuckwits.Slackbladder said:
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
They might see a downsidegrabcocque said:
Where's the downside?Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for starters
Plus for all the doom stories about Brexit just wait for impact of a Jezbollah government.0 -
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
For sure, People will be looking for the biggest loons to elect. And, it seems many European voters want some of that too.Pulpstar said:
The EU elections will be the perfect place to make a protest vote.Slackbladder said:
Thats true. I doubt people will be marching in the streets in their millions. If there is a 'backlash' it will be increased disillusionment, and risk of low turnouts, making a breakthrough by a far-right, or far left extremists higher.grabcocque said:
It's ridiculous, prima facie, to think that anyone is going to be cowed by threats of violence from Yaxley-Lennon and his band of merry fuckwits.Slackbladder said:
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
Seconded. I don't know how messy, but it could be very nasty in some places.TheScreamingEagles said:There’s going to be violence in the event of no deal that leads to a shortage of meds and foods.
Those gallows Leavers are happy to condone might be used on Leavers.
Everything looks messy from now on.0 -
All roads lead to being marmalised one way or another. May's deal just kicks the marmalisation down the road a bit, at least until the DUP VONC her.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
There's been a high structural fault in the Tories (and labour) for a long time. If FPTP is reformed then I'm sure both parties would split. That might be very healthy for the country right now.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
0
-
Alternatively Jezza's govt may spend the whole time purging their ranks of unbelievers rather than on governing and the country will just get on with things - quite nicely as is happening now.Floater said:
They might see a downsidegrabcocque said:
Where's the downside?Floater said:
A shellacking for the tories for starters
Plus for all the doom stories about Brexit just wait for impact of a Jezbollah government.0 -
Expect big wins for Labour then.Sean_F said:
For sure, People will be looking for the biggest loons to elect.Pulpstar said:
The EU elections will be the perfect place to make a protest vote.Slackbladder said:
Thats true. I doubt people will be marching in the streets in their millions. If there is a 'backlash' it will be increased disillusionment, and risk of low turnouts, making a breakthrough by a far-right, or far left extremists higher.grabcocque said:
It's ridiculous, prima facie, to think that anyone is going to be cowed by threats of violence from Yaxley-Lennon and his band of merry fuckwits.Slackbladder said:
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.
(DYSWIDT?)0 -
Comparable to the crash after the Corn Laws debacle?Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
0
-
And it kills all the nonsense from leavers about how we would have to join the Euro and lose all our opt-outs.Richard_Nabavi said:
I disagree. What the ruling gives is 100% certainty that any decision to revoke Article 50 is entirely in our power and there is no need to worry about whether we might get held to ransom or stopped by some minor player in EU27. That's very important, because it makes it possible to put Revoke to a referendum with certainty that it can be delivered - think how chaotic it would be if we held a referendum, the result was Revoke, and then we found we couldn't do it.TOPPING said:As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
Of course, we would still need an Article 50 extension, but that can be obtained in advance.0 -
It was never a serious prospect I think. ConHome speculating it was little more than an attempt to delay any payroll resignations over the weekend. No point resigning to vote against, if there's not gonna be a vote.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.
I could, however, see May belatedly deciding to make it a free vote. If she doesn't, we're on high alert resignation watch.
All eyes on McVey and Mordaunt?0 -
Fair enough the new, peace-loving, polite Richard (not too polite, I hope).Richard_Tyndall said:
No difference Topping. You are happy to raise the spectre of a return to the Troubles as a means to persuade people to support your position. I have never once accused you of actually wishing that state of affairs. I mention that my experience is that there will be violence if Leave is reversed. It is the same.TOPPING said:
Richard I appreciate you are uneasy on this topic and hence don't usually engage but I am happy to explain to you again (at the risk of boring senseless other PB-ers) why the reinstitution of a hard border in Northern Ireland would be deeply unwise.
That is a world away from you invoking, as @Foxy has noted, Enoch Powell in your predictions about possible violence especially as you have told us your footwear is suitable for engaging in it.
My boots you mention were indeed used for giving a good kicking in the past. But that was kicking real fascists from the NF/BNP in London in the early 80s. Unfortunately I wasn't very good at it, hence both hospital and police cell visits.
I really would rather we didn't see a return to those days but I say again that is what you are risking.
And wrt NI you misunderstand my point and tone. I am not trying to persuade anyone to support "my" position. I don't really have a position apart from observing that The Deal solves the NI problem and the recurrence of The Troubles is unconscionable and certainly something that no Prime Minister of the UK could preside over.
I am looking at the situation from a socio-political context and identifying a particular state of affairs, with the analysis drawing on precedent and the historical reality of The Troubles. A view which finds sympathy as evidenced by many articles written locally in Northern Ireland and the Republic by all "sides".
That is a world away from saying if a certain political outcome you desire is "betrayed" then violence will follow, with no precedent or real grounds for saying so other than gut feel and a touch of invocation.0 -
Not only that, but what on earth would be gained by delaying? It's not shortage of time for the debate that is the issue! We need to get this vote out of the way so that, given that the deal is not going to be approved, attention can turn to what is going to be approved instead. It's not as though we have the luxury of plenty of time.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.0 -
Interesting contrarian view of the ECJ ruling; it allows us to see this first attempt as a dry run for a more properly prepared second go.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-ecj-brexit-ruling-hands-power-back-to-britain/0 -
True.IanB2 said:
And it kills all the nonsense from leavers about how we would have to join the Euro and lose all our opt-outs.Richard_Nabavi said:
I disagree. What the ruling gives is 100% certainty that any decision to revoke Article 50 is entirely in our power and there is no need to worry about whether we might get held to ransom or stopped by some minor player in EU27. That's very important, because it makes it possible to put Revoke to a referendum with certainty that it can be delivered - think how chaotic it would be if we held a referendum, the result was Revoke, and then we found we couldn't do it.TOPPING said:As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
Of course, we would still need an Article 50 extension, but that can be obtained in advance.0 -
I think it's fear of the Grieve amendment. The Grieve amendment only comes into play once the MV falls. No MV, no Grieve.Richard_Nabavi said:
Not only that, but what on earth would be gained by delaying? It's not shortage of time for the debate that is the issue! We need to get this vote out of the way so that, given that the deal is not going to be approved, attention can turn to what is going to be approved instead. It's not as though we have the luxury of plenty of time.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.0 -
Quite possibly, but who knows?OldKingCole said:
Comparable to the crash after the Corn Laws debacle?Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
Oddly enough, the Conservatives won the elections of both 1847 and 1852, but were too divided among themselves to form a government.OldKingCole said:
Comparable to the crash after the Corn Laws debacle?Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
Agree - it's hugely significant (and surprising, as the court more often than not rules in favour of the EU and not the nation state) - and made Mrs May's job even more difficult. Looks like the ERG are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Serves the b#ggers right.Richard_Nabavi said:
I disagree. What the ruling gives is 100% certainty that any decision to revoke Article 50 is entirely in our power and there is no need to worry about whether we might get held to ransom or stopped by some minor player in EU27. That's very important, because it makes it possible to put Revoke to a referendum with certainty that it can be delivered - think how chaotic it would be if we held a referendum, the result was Revoke, and then we found we couldn't do it.TOPPING said:As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
0 -
Ha, if we tried it again, the UK would find itself negotiating in an empty room.geoffw said:Interesting contrarian view of the ECJ ruling; it allows us to see this first attempt as a dry run for a more properly prepared second go.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-ecj-brexit-ruling-hands-power-back-to-britain/0 -
But she would presumably break UK law in the process (as the Act passed at the start enshrined March 29th as the leaving date). So (a) it probably does need parliamentary approval and (b) a withdrawal without it might arguably not have followed our constitutional procedures, given that the law was passed? (IANAL etc)grabcocque said:
That's not clear actually. The ECJ ruling says "in accordance with our constutional procedures" which means that all May has to do is notify the Council of our decision to revoke Article 50, and BOOM, it's done.Donny43 said:
The only thing that can stop us leaving is parliament voting to overturn the referendum result.kle4 said:
I didn't mean he wants us to remain. I know he doesn't and will fight it. But he and his are preventing us from leaving working hand in hand with remainers. He hopes and assumes we leave in a different way instead but unintended consequences are still consequences. He has been one of the biggest helpers to the remain cause.Donny43 said:
If parliament votes to overturn the referendum result, JRM will vote against.0 -
I suspect this is one movie for which there won't be much demand for a sequelgeoffw said:Interesting contrarian view of the ECJ ruling; it allows us to see this first attempt as a dry run for a more properly prepared second go.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-ecj-brexit-ruling-hands-power-back-to-britain/0 -
They did rule in favour of the EU. The clincher for the court was that forcing out the UK against its will would violate the principle of ever closer union.CarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/1072086273274331136
Agree - it's hugely significant (and surprising, as the court more often than not rules in favour of the EU and not the nation state) - and made Mrs May's job even more difficult. Looks like the ERG are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Serves the b#ggers right.Richard_Nabavi said:
I disagree. What the ruling gives is 100% certainty that any decision to revoke Article 50 is entirely in our power and there is no need to worry about whether we might get held to ransom or stopped by some minor player in EU27. That's very important, because it makes it possible to put Revoke to a referendum with certainty that it can be delivered - think how chaotic it would be if we held a referendum, the result was Revoke, and then we found we couldn't do it.TOPPING said:As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
0 -
Nothing matters more to me (not even Brexit) than seeing the back of Trump. He is pure poison. Behind bars would be optimal and deserved but I can't see it somehow. I am however becoming more confident that if the ghastly creature survives and stands again he will lose in 2020. It needs to be a crushing defeat, though, if America is to regain its place in my affections (which I would have thought is paramount to the people there) and the biggest single development that will ensure this is not some eye-popping Mueller revelation but a well-timed and preferably quite severe economic downturn in the US. I wrote my list for Santa first thing this morning and that is right at the top.0
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Theresa May should embrace Grieve (metaphorically, you understand). His amendment provides a glimmer of an escape hatch, making it possible to force MPs to decide what they are for, rather than what they are against.grabcocque said:
I think it's fear of the Grieve amendment. The Grieve amendment only comes into play once the MV falls. No MV, no Grieve.Richard_Nabavi said:
Not only that, but what on earth would be gained by delaying? It's not shortage of time for the debate that is the issue! We need to get this vote out of the way so that, given that the deal is not going to be approved, attention can turn to what is going to be approved instead. It's not as though we have the luxury of plenty of time.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.0 -
But that is a better membership than our part in part out second rate deal that ensures years more fractious membership.IanB2 said:
And it kills all the nonsense from leavers about how we would have to join the Euro and lose all our opt-outs.Richard_Nabavi said:
I disagree. What the ruling gives is 100% certainty that any decision to revoke Article 50 is entirely in our power and there is no need to worry about whether we might get held to ransom or stopped by some minor player in EU27. That's very important, because it makes it possible to put Revoke to a referendum with certainty that it can be delivered - think how chaotic it would be if we held a referendum, the result was Revoke, and then we found we couldn't do it.TOPPING said:As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
Of course, we would still need an Article 50 extension, but that can be obtained in advance.
Get in properly or get out. A halfway house is the crapiest position of all.0 -
McVey already gone.grabcocque said:
It was never a serious prospect I think. ConHome speculating it was little more than an attempt to delay any payroll resignations over the weekend. No point resigning to vote against, if there's not gonna be a vote.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.
I could, however, see May belatedly deciding to make it a free vote. If she doesn't, we're on high alert resignation watch.
All eyes on McVey and Mordaunt?0 -
Flowers - or donations?grabcocque said:To all those leavers threatening us with vague but ominous warnings of a gammon uprising:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
A good idea. We stay. And when the Brexiteers can actually make a proposal that makes any sense we can vote for it. Or not. In other words do what should have been done the first time.geoffw said:Interesting contrarian view of the ECJ ruling; it allows us to see this first attempt as a dry run for a more properly prepared second go.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-ecj-brexit-ruling-hands-power-back-to-britain/0 -
The same as last time, then.Sean_F said:
For sure, People will be looking for the biggest loons to elect. And, it seems many European voters want some of that too.Pulpstar said:
The EU elections will be the perfect place to make a protest vote.Slackbladder said:
Thats true. I doubt people will be marching in the streets in their millions. If there is a 'backlash' it will be increased disillusionment, and risk of low turnouts, making a breakthrough by a far-right, or far left extremists higher.grabcocque said:
It's ridiculous, prima facie, to think that anyone is going to be cowed by threats of violence from Yaxley-Lennon and his band of merry fuckwits.Slackbladder said:
This isn't Guido Fawke's site...please.grabcocque said:
YOU WANT SOME? YOU FOOKIN WANT SOME?CarlottaVance said:grabcocque said:I think maybe we should have a PB moratorium on threats of violence.
Physician heal thyself!grabcocque said:
COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH.0 -
A free vote! On the government's flagship policy?grabcocque said:
It was never a serious prospect I think. ConHome speculating it was little more than an attempt to delay any payroll resignations over the weekend. No point resigning to vote against, if there's not gonna be a vote.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.
I could, however, see May belatedly deciding to make it a free vote. If she doesn't, we're on high alert resignation watch.
All eyes on McVey and Mordaunt?
If May is reduced to that she might as well go now, her authority will be reduced below that of the Downing Street cat.
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112
George Freeman: "I’ve concluded & told my Whip that I can’t vote for this deal"
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1072091296716734464
Could we see May lose by 200+? 250+?0 -
Dem house lead now at 9,735,932. And yes they are still counting in California.kinabalu said:Nothing matters more to me (not even Brexit) than seeing the back of Trump. He is pure poison. Behind bars would be optimal and deserved but I can't see it somehow. I am however becoming more confident that if the ghastly creature survives and stands again he will lose in 2020. It needs to be a crushing defeat, though, if America is to regain its place in my affections (which I would have thought is paramount to the people there) and the biggest single development that will ensure this is not some eye-popping Mueller revelation but a well-timed and preferably quite severe economic downturn in the US. I wrote my list for Santa first thing this morning and that is right at the top.
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Oh, I don't now.IanB2 said:
I suspect this is one movie for which there won't be much demand for a sequelgeoffw said:Interesting contrarian view of the ECJ ruling; it allows us to see this first attempt as a dry run for a more properly prepared second go.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-ecj-brexit-ruling-hands-power-back-to-britain/
Brexit With a Vengeance.......0 -
I mean, her authority is already swiss cheese. A free vote might at least stop a cabinet resignation or two.anothernick said:
A free vote! On the government's flagship policy?grabcocque said:
It was never a serious prospect I think. ConHome speculating it was little more than an attempt to delay any payroll resignations over the weekend. No point resigning to vote against, if there's not gonna be a vote.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1072088656519815171
I'm not sure they had a choice.
I could, however, see May belatedly deciding to make it a free vote. If she doesn't, we're on high alert resignation watch.
All eyes on McVey and Mordaunt?
If May is reduced to that she might as well go now, her authority will be reduced below that of the Downing Street cat.0 -
Well, who could blame her?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Quite probably comparable then! We've had the first......Sean_F said:
Oddly enough, the Conservatives won the elections of both 1847 and 1852, but were too divided among themselves to form a government.OldKingCole said:
Comparable to the crash after the Corn Laws debacle?Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm pretty sure there will be a shellacking for the Tories if Brexit doesn't go ahead (although it's rather ironic, given that the reason for it not going ahead will be the unholy alliance between the Brexiteers and the opposition).david_herdson said:That doesn't necessarily follow, though it could well. The public seem to be giving May personally the benefit of the doubt for trying her best to complete a Sisyphean task. Whether they're right to do so is another matter. Certainly her task to get anything acceptable (in either sense) is not helped by the divisions in her own party and those divisions may well lead to a shellacking.
On the other hand, if Brexit is cancelled despite the PM's best efforts and despite various shades of Leave being demonstrated (if not effectively applied) on the Tory benches, while it's Labour, the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens (plus probably a small number of Tories) who have combined to frustrate Brexit then it will not only be the Conservatives feeling the backlash.
However, that ain't nothing compared with the shellacking the party will get if we crash out in chaos - it could take a generation to recover.0 -
'A Cabinet source reacts: "Well... fuck... Maybe she wants a no confidence vote so she can be booted out and have a quiet Christmas.'0
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The cabinet source must be thick - the vote going ahead isn't a reason to change mind on anything, the program can't be changed by the Gov't without a division.TheScreamingEagles said:
Does anyone in parliament (Except Grieve and Bercow) understand the procedures ?0 -
Several bookies have vote band markets on the number of Ayes. The number still seems to be dropping rather than rising, so far as I can see.grabcocque said:112
George Freeman: "I’ve concluded & told my Whip that I can’t vote for this deal"
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1072091296716734464
Could we see May lose by 200+? 250+?0 -
That would be my reaction, in her shoes.Richard_Nabavi said:
Well, who could blame her?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
This is textbook May. Call an emergency all hands conference call, put the lobby on high alert, march everyone to the top of the hill and then...
"Nothing has changed."0 -
North of 200. No reason for any Labour MPs to vote for it. At best, maybe a couple will abstain, but even that will risk censure from their local party.grabcocque said:112
George Freeman: "I’ve concluded & told my Whip that I can’t vote for this deal"
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1072091296716734464
Could we see May lose by 200+? 250+?
And there will be a bunch more payroll resignations ahead of the vote. This regime is in its dying days. Why piss off the new PM - and end your career?0 -
Loads like a lot of mischief making going on and of course the media will lap that up.TheScreamingEagles said:0
