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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In October last year LAB had an average poll lead of 2.4% – this October Corbyn’s party is 3% behind
Comments
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First, just like the Tories.0
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Second like Labour0
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Lost, like the UK.0
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As I said, it was rather unfortunate for Corbyn that just at the start of the silly season when everyone was sick of the B-word that the main story was he supported racists.
It's not so much that it would dent his popularity in his target groups - although contrary to my expectations it appears to have done so - but that it would give the waverers he needs to win over another reason to ignore him.
What I wasn't expecting was for it to turn off his younger voting demographic to quite such an extent. They appear to have been much more aware of, and much more annoyed by, these issues than I thought they would be.0 -
I fear that while Mr Corbyn may enthuse those his core support, there are enough questions around his actions to make those of us who don’t fall into that category to look at him doubtfully!
I’d also like to know what percentage of the electorate are ‘doubtful’ about both main parties. In other words, what are these 80-odd % of. I realise that statistically one can project from samples, but I very much doubt that many people are that enthusiastic about either party, or party leader at the moment.0 -
Falling fast, like Boris.
I must say the the pre-Budget build-up and speculation is a little dull this year?0 -
As regards to younger voters, I thought the consensus was that his ambiguity over brexit was regarded as the main factor in the drop in support.0
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Dull budgets were everybody goes “was that it?” afterwards are much better than showy ones which fall to pieces within 24 hours.IanB2 said:Falling fast, like Boris.
I must say the the pre-Budget build-up and speculation is a little dull this year?0 -
So, games players, can I recommend Return of The Obra Dinn. It genuinely is like no game you have ever played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILolesm8kFY0 -
It may be any number of things. This cannot have helped.Fysics_Teacher said:As regards to younger voters, I thought the consensus was that his ambiguity over brexit was regarded as the main factor in the drop in support.
Good luck for the next half term, hope it goes well.0 -
Enjoy your break.ydoethur said:
It may be any number of things. This cannot have helped.Fysics_Teacher said:As regards to younger voters, I thought the consensus was that his ambiguity over brexit was regarded as the main factor in the drop in support.
Good luck for the next half term, hope it goes well.0 -
I have the joys of a 21 year old and a 15 year old at the moment. It's a pretty small sample even taking into account their peer groups but I would say as a generality they have very little interest in party politics at all.ydoethur said:As I said, it was rather unfortunate for Corbyn that just at the start of the silly season when everyone was sick of the B-word that the main story was he supported racists.
It's not so much that it would dent his popularity in his target groups - although contrary to my expectations it appears to have done so - but that it would give the waverers he needs to win over another reason to ignore him.
What I wasn't expecting was for it to turn off his younger voting demographic to quite such an extent. They appear to have been much more aware of, and much more annoyed by, these issues than I thought they would be.
It is a mistake, however, to think that does not mean that they don't have strong views about a range of issues, some of which Corbyn resonated with in the past. My kids and their friends find the idea of racism abhorrent. They are not so interested in feminism because they take equality as a given. They find any form of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation distasteful and slightly weird. Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
They are of course connected to each other like no generation in history and have access to unlimited information (much of it lacking context) on their phones at all times. Whether there is a correlation between this connectedness and the lack of interest in traditional political groups is hard to say but I don't get the impression there is the same willingness to bend their own ideas to those of a group or conform. It will be interesting to see what they do with the world.0 -
Corbyn was the future, once.....
I wonder if McDonnell will have another outing for his Little Red Book today? Or has he realised that with the air leaking out of Corbyn's balloon, perhaps it is unwise to make twattish gestures when his own time might soon come?0 -
In what way? (Genuine interest)rcs1000 said:So, games players, can I recommend Return of The Obra Dinn. It genuinely is like no game you have ever played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILolesm8kFY0 -
Of course before the internet you could connect up instantly with anyone in the entire world as long as they had a phone, even if they lived in the middle of the Australian outback. The only difference was that because it was expensive you only did it when you really needed to, which is perhaps not such a bad thing. There were also services like Ceefax and Prestel which contained a surprisingly large amount of information. People tend to forget about those technologies today, and how extensive they were. They didn't feature videos of cats playing the piano though, that's true.DavidL said:
I have the joys of a 21 year old and a 15 year old at the moment. It's a pretty small sample even taking into account their peer groups but I would say as a generality they have very little interest in party politics at all.ydoethur said:As I said, it was rather unfortunate for Corbyn that just at the start of the silly season when everyone was sick of the B-word that the main story was he supported racists.
It's not so much that it would dent his popularity in his target groups - although contrary to my expectations it appears to have done so - but that it would give the waverers he needs to win over another reason to ignore him.
What I wasn't expecting was for it to turn off his younger voting demographic to quite such an extent. They appear to have been much more aware of, and much more annoyed by, these issues than I thought they would be.
It is a mistake, however, to think that does not mean that they don't have strong views about a range of issues, some of which Corbyn resonated with in the past. My kids and their friends find the idea of racism abhorrent. They are not so interested in feminism because they take equality as a given. They find any form of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation distasteful and slightly weird. Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
They are of course connected to each other like no generation in history and have access to unlimited information (much of it lacking context) on their phones at all times. Whether there is a correlation between this connectedness and the lack of interest in traditional political groups is hard to say but I don't get the impression there is the same willingness to bend their own ideas to those of a group or conform. It will be interesting to see what they do with the world.0 -
I would be extremely surprised if Macdonnell has any ambition to lead Labour.MarqueeMark said:Corbyn was the future, once.....
I wonder if McDonnell will have another outing for his Little Red Book today? Or has he realised that with the air leaking out of Corbyn's balloon, perhaps it is unwise to make twattish gestures when his own time might soon come?
Admittedly, that only faintly compares to the astonishment I would feel if he stood and won.0 -
The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.0
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Good morning, everyone.
F1: a weird weekend. Lots of luck, good and bad. Some good judgement and bad judgement. Normally I either get a fluke or (this year) suffer unremitting pain at the hands of fate.
Finished ahead overall, so pleased about that. Wrote a bit of the post-race tosh last night but will finish it off this morning.
On-topic: small margins and the turbulence of modern politics could easily turn things this way or that.0 -
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
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If Corbyn were to disappear off the stage for whatever reason, who else would be passed the baton of his personal politics, if not McDonnell?ydoethur said:
I would be extremely surprised if Macdonnell has any ambition to lead Labour.MarqueeMark said:Corbyn was the future, once.....
I wonder if McDonnell will have another outing for his Little Red Book today? Or has he realised that with the air leaking out of Corbyn's balloon, perhaps it is unwise to make twattish gestures when his own time might soon come?
Admittedly, that only faintly compares to the astonishment I would feel if he stood and won.
McDonnell has the air of a man pacing around muttering "Oh, ffs...." all summer over the anti-semitism row - when he should have been making the case for slicing and dicing this Government.0 -
Its completely different. Not only is it free but group chat is the norm, something the old tech couldn't do. I remember Ceefax but it was not interactive or responsive. It had lots of boring news which generally doesn't interest the younger generation either unless it is about one of their hot topics.AndyJS said:
Of course before the internet you could connect up instantly with anyone in the entire world as long as they had a phone, even if they lived in the middle of the Australian outback. The only difference was that because it was expensive you only did it when you really needed to, which is perhaps not such a bad thing. There were also services like Ceefax and Prestel which contained a surprisingly large amount of information. People tend to forget about those technologies today, and how extensive they were.DavidL said:
I have the joys of a 21 year old and a 15 year old at the moment. It's a pretty small sample even taking into account their peer groups but I would say as a generality they have very little interest in party politics at all.ydoethur said:As I said, it was rather unfortunate for Corbyn that just at the start of the silly season when everyone was sick of the B-word that the main story was he supported racists.
It's not so much that it would dent his popularity in his target groups - although contrary to my expectations it appears to have done so - but that it would give the waverers he needs to win over another reason to ignore him.
What I wasn't expecting was for it to turn off his younger voting demographic to quite such an extent. They appear to have been much more aware of, and much more annoyed by, these issues than I thought they would be.
It is a mistake, however, to think that does not mean that they don't have strong views about a range of issues, some of which Corbyn resonated with in the past. My kids and their friends find the idea of racism abhorrent. They are not so interested in feminism because they take equality as a given. They find any form of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation distasteful and slightly weird. Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
They are of course connected to each other like no generation in history and have access to unlimited information (much of it lacking context) on their phones at all times. Whether there is a correlation between this connectedness and the lack of interest in traditional political groups is hard to say but I don't get the impression there is the same willingness to bend their own ideas to those of a group or conform. It will be interesting to see what they do with the world.0 -
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
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Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.0
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My grandson and his wife find themselves with an infestation of mice, probably coming from next door (they have a semi). While otherwise reasonably typical they have invested in conventional traps!Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
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FPT: on current figures, the Greens have taken second place from the Social Democrats in Hesse by just 94 votes out of millions cast.0
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The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
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When the two party's supporters are voting against something rather than for something, it is not altogether surprising under FPTP that this consolidates negative votes behind the big two. The only way to block a Labour government is to vote Conservative. Conversely, the only reliable way to get the Tories out is to vote Labour.DavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
If we had AV, PR or STV I think the polls would look very different - probably closer to Germany with massive fragmentation on both left and right.0 -
For sure it will be choice of the lesser of two evils only.OldKingCole said:I fear that while Mr Corbyn may enthuse those his core support, there are enough questions around his actions to make those of us who don’t fall into that category to look at him doubtfully!
I’d also like to know what percentage of the electorate are ‘doubtful’ about both main parties. In other words, what are these 80-odd % of. I realise that statistically one can project from samples, but I very much doubt that many people are that enthusiastic about either party, or party leader at the moment.0 -
FTPT
Only by subterfuge! Sneaky liberals.Benpointer said:
We're weak on absolutely everything, and yet... we've achieved so much in the past 100 years. How strange!MaxPB said:I think the main problem with liberals is that they are weak. Just weak on absolutely everything.
It's a common trope of the fascist to present the enemy as both overwhelming and all powerful but also weak an snivelling.0 -
That's probably right, if somewhat depressing. Given the lack of inspiration on show though I really find the big 2 getting 80% at the next election again highly unlikely.ydoethur said:
When the two party's supporters are voting against something rather than for something, it is not altogether surprising under FPTP that this consolidates negative votes behind the big two. The only way to block a Labour government is to vote Conservative. Conversely, the only reliable way to get the Tories out is to vote Labour.DavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
If we had AV, PR or STV I think the polls would look very different - probably closer to Germany with massive fragmentation on both left and right.0 -
Hammond is a much better Chancellor than either Osborne or Brown. One sticky moment over NI aside, he's provided exactly the boring competence and determination needed.CarlottaVance said:
Somebody upthread commented on the lack of leaks. That pattern was the ultimate indicator of both Brown's and Osborne's lack of political sense. They would leak all the good stuff in advance, and then be amazed when for the next several weeks or even months nobody mentioned the good stuff (as it wasn't 'news' any more) and instead focussed relentlessly on the bad stuff.
Leaking the bad stuff and getting it out of the way would have been smarter, but not as smart as keeping schtum.0 -
There we differ. I can easily see them getting 75% plus between them. For me, the thing to watch will be turnout as disillusioned voters stay at home. I could see that dipping below 65%.DavidL said:
That's probably right, if somewhat depressing. Given the lack of inspiration on show though I really find the big 2 getting 80% at the next election again highly unlikely.ydoethur said:
When the two party's supporters are voting against something rather than for something, it is not altogether surprising under FPTP that this consolidates negative votes behind the big two. The only way to block a Labour government is to vote Conservative. Conversely, the only reliable way to get the Tories out is to vote Labour.DavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
If we had AV, PR or STV I think the polls would look very different - probably closer to Germany with massive fragmentation on both left and right.
The next election could easily be won by the party that motivates its supporters best. This is where Corbyn's Marmite qualities remain a priceless asset to the Tories. He's not currently enthusing his base but he sure as hell enthuses theirs.
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Exactly , given the majority of votes in UK are useless as most seats never change hands , it is just a lottery in a handful of seats that decides what useless bunch of creeps we are subjected to next, both cheeks of the same arse apart from being left or right side.ydoethur said:
When the two party's supporters are voting against something rather than for something, it is not altogether surprising under FPTP that this consolidates negative votes behind the big two. The only way to block a Labour government is to vote Conservative. Conversely, the only reliable way to get the Tories out is to vote Labour.DavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
If we had AV, PR or STV I think the polls would look very different - probably closer to Germany with massive fragmentation on both left and right.0 -
I had thought the SNP surge in 2015 might be the start of proving that trope to be wrong.malcolmg said:
Exactly , given the majority of votes in UK are useless as most seats never change hands , it is just a lottery in a handful of seats that decides what useless bunch of creeps we are subjected to next, both cheeks of the same arse apart from being left or right side.ydoethur said:
When the two party's supporters are voting against something rather than for something, it is not altogether surprising under FPTP that this consolidates negative votes behind the big two. The only way to block a Labour government is to vote Conservative. Conversely, the only reliable way to get the Tories out is to vote Labour.DavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
If we had AV, PR or STV I think the polls would look very different - probably closer to Germany with massive fragmentation on both left and right.
But it hasn't.0 -
Labour haven’t been trying to appeal to voters much, preferring to concentrate on internal party matters. We’ll have to wait and see what happens when they change tack, as they can be expected to do at some point.0
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I think we'd look a lot like Spain, because unlike Germany there'd be a strong nationalist vote in some parts of the country to throw int the mix.ydoethur said:
When the two party's supporters are voting against something rather than for something, it is not altogether surprising under FPTP that this consolidates negative votes behind the big two. The only way to block a Labour government is to vote Conservative. Conversely, the only reliable way to get the Tories out is to vote Labour.DavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
If we had AV, PR or STV I think the polls would look very different - probably closer to Germany with massive fragmentation on both left and right.
The bottom line, though, is that Corbyn cements the Tories into power, which means that the Tories have no real incentive to face up to their many damaging deficiencies. Instead they get the consequence-free luxury of fighting each other in the knowledge that whatever happens they will win most seats at the next election. For the country as a whole it is nothing short of disastrous.0 -
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
I think the polls are irrelevant at this stage. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and she is still there because Tory MPs are all mouth and no trousers. She is leading Britain to a national humiliation with her Brexit plans, has no domestic policy agenda, and in Hammond has yet another tax and spend Chancellor who is presiding over a real standard of living crisis and ignoring productivity and investment needs.
Against any other political party, Labour’s problems with anti-semitism, misogyny and support for terrorist organisation isations would see it dead and buried in electoral terms. Against the clueless muppets that constitute the current Tory Party, it is still very much a political force to be reckoned with.0 -
And that's got to be enough excitement for one year, surely.CarlottaVance said:0 -
I am not wholly sure Labour see the difference. What are nationalisation, tuition fee pledges, unfunded borrowing and Brexit dithering if not self-indulgence pandering to different wings of the party? Yet they firmly - and on the evidence of last year, with some justice - believe these also appeal to voters.AlastairMeeks said:Labour haven’t been trying to appeal to voters much, preferring to concentrate on internal party matters. We’ll have to wait and see what happens when they change tack, as they can be expected to do at some point.
It's the racism row that we can't say that of.0 -
One each will be given to nurses and teachers as their pay rise for 2019.DavidL said:
And that's got to be enough excitement for one year, surely.CarlottaVance said:0 -
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
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Yep, that’s the way I see it. How bad are the Tories to be only a few points ahead of a party led by Jeremy Corbyn?AmpfieldAndy said:I think the polls are irrelevant at this stage. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and she is still there because Tory MPs are all mouth and no trousers. She is leading Britain to a national humiliation with her Brexit plans, has no domestic policy agenda, and in Hammond has yet another tax and spend Chancellor who is presiding over a real standard of living crisis and ignoring productivity and investment needs.
Against any other political party, Labour’s problems with anti-semitism, misogyny and support for terrorist organisation isations would see it dead and buried in electoral terms. Against the clueless muppets that constitute the current Tory Party, it is still very much a political force to be reckoned with.
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Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
I’m highly unlikely to vote Green because quite a few of the leaflets etc that I see talk about ending vivisection. I know that I owe my life, in part anyway, to experiments carried out on animals. I don’t think that, yet anyway, we can rely on computer simulation to forecast drug effects so voting Green, to me, would be condemning others to the miserable time I had as a teenager.JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
Not as bad as Corbyn, and that's what MATTERSSouthamObserver said:
Yep, that’s the way I see it. How bad are the Tories to be only a few points ahead of a party led by Jeremy Corbyn?AmpfieldAndy said:I think the polls are irrelevant at this stage. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and she is still there because Tory MPs are all mouth and no trousers. She is leading Britain to a national humiliation with her Brexit plans, has no domestic policy agenda, and in Hammond has yet another tax and spend Chancellor who is presiding over a real standard of living crisis and ignoring productivity and investment needs.
Against any other political party, Labour’s problems with anti-semitism, misogyny and support for terrorist organisation isations would see it dead and buried in electoral terms. Against the clueless muppets that constitute the current Tory Party, it is still very much a political force to be reckoned with.0 -
You need more than just a retail offer, it needs to hang together.ydoethur said:
I am not wholly sure Labour see the difference. What are nationalisation, tuition fee pledges, unfunded borrowing and Brexit dithering if not self-indulgence pandering to different wings of the party? Yet they firmly - and on the evidence of last year, with some justice - believe these also appeal to voters.AlastairMeeks said:Labour haven’t been trying to appeal to voters much, preferring to concentrate on internal party matters. We’ll have to wait and see what happens when they change tack, as they can be expected to do at some point.
It's the racism row that we can't say that of.
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DONT YOU MEAN EXCREMENT...DavidL said:
And that's got to be enough excitement for one year, surely.CarlottaVance said:0 -
At least they are not susceptible the ideology of never using blockquotes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.
The BBC's "line" is basically true. The industry of rearing animals to be killed for human food consumes huge amounts of water and energy to produce a vast amount of C02 and a relatively small amount of protein.0 -
Blimey my daughters cat was reading PB whilst sitting beside me this morning. Just as well I’d moved away.JosiasJessop said:
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
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Mr. Ace, true. We could really fight global warming by mass termination of cows. I look forward to seeing bovine genocide in the Green manifesto.0
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And the cat points out that journalist, politician and lawyer are noteable absences from that list.....JosiasJessop said:
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
yukDavidL said:
And that's got to be enough excitement for one year, surely.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up0
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But a nice steak now and again , with a bottle of red is very good. They could just ration it. Also how could you live without an odd burger here and there.Dura_Ace said:
At least they are not susceptible the ideology of never using blockquotes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.
The BBC's "line" is basically true. The industry of rearing animals to be killed for human food consumes huge amounts of water and energy to produce a vast amount of C02 and a relatively small amount of protein.0 -
Justine Greening has said she would consider a leadership bid on GMB0
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I like the sound track and the animation reminds me of the brilliant 'Old Man And the Sea by Petrov.rcs1000 said:So, games players, can I recommend Return of The Obra Dinn. It genuinely is like no game you have ever played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILolesm8kFY
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=old+man+and+the+sea+animation#id=5&vid=4d52ae42bdc3adcda9f81913096f118c&action=view0 -
The Tories are now into a third term in government, only once in the last century have they won a 4th term from 1992 to 1997 and if they win that it will be largely due to CorbynSouthamObserver said:
Yep, that’s the way I see it. How bad are the Tories to be only a few points ahead of a party led by Jeremy Corbyn?AmpfieldAndy said:I think the polls are irrelevant at this stage. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and she is still there because Tory MPs are all mouth and no trousers. She is leading Britain to a national humiliation with her Brexit plans, has no domestic policy agenda, and in Hammond has yet another tax and spend Chancellor who is presiding over a real standard of living crisis and ignoring productivity and investment needs.
Against any other political party, Labour’s problems with anti-semitism, misogyny and support for terrorist organisation isations would see it dead and buried in electoral terms. Against the clueless muppets that constitute the current Tory Party, it is still very much a political force to be reckoned with.0 -
Yes, but what about 2016? Polls will never scare corbynites again, and the rest are converted or have given up.0
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What about some haggis and whisky?malcolmg said:
But a nice steak now and again , with a bottle of red is very good. They could just ration it. Also how could you live without an odd burger here and there.Dura_Ace said:
At least they are not susceptible the ideology of never using blockquotes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.
The BBC's "line" is basically true. The industry of rearing animals to be killed for human food consumes huge amounts of water and energy to produce a vast amount of C02 and a relatively small amount of protein.0 -
The LDs got 7% in 2017, on the chart above they are up to 10% in some polls so that is progress if only small progressDavidL said:The other thing to note is that the 2 main parties are still getting 79% of the vote between them. For whatever reason we are not yet getting the sort of fragmentation that we saw again in Germany yesterday. Not only do we not have any new third parties of note but some of the older ones such as the Greens who are doing so well on the continent are going nowhere. The Lib Dems, with their unambiguous views on the EU, are also making no progress. This continues to surprise me, especially when you consider the quality of leadership of the established parties.
0 -
Mr. G, nonsense. You can't eat what you want. Think about the planet. Do you want us all to die?
Letting the puritans dictate what you can eat is necessary to prevent the slaughter of the firstborn. Or don't you care about the greater good?
0 -
Just as well they didn't ask Jeremy Clarkson.MarqueeMark said:
And the cat points out that journalist, politician and lawyer are noteable absences from that list.....JosiasJessop said:
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
Otherwise 'the person who invented driverless cars' and 'foxes' would have been on there too!0 -
The Tories still got 42% in 2017, all that happened was minor party voters switched to Labour, the Tory voteshare was little changed from just before May called the general election though the Tories lost gains made at the start of the campaignkle4 said:Yes, but what about 2016? Polls will never scare corbynites again, and the rest are converted or have given up.
0 -
Pathological attachment to cruelty? Really? That's supposed to be serious?Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
0 -
As I have said before, the next election hangs on which of the larger parties loses most support to the minor parties. Labour is skewered between the Greens and LibDems just as the Tories are between LibDem and UKIP.HYUFD said:Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up
0 -
Surely the answer to the planet's woes is to have an All-you-can-eat baby buffet?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. G, nonsense. You can't eat what you want. Think about the planet. Do you want us all to die?
Letting the puritans dictate what you can eat is necessary to prevent the slaughter of the firstborn. Or don't you care about the greater good?0 -
Pretty standard sci fi trope.DavidL said:
The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
0 -
I think I'm right in saying only once since 1832 has a party won four consecutive terms in government?HYUFD said:
The Tories are now into a third term in government, only once in the last century have they won a 4th term from 1992 to 1997 and if they win that it will be largely due to CorbynSouthamObserver said:
Yep, that’s the way I see it. How bad are the Tories to be only a few points ahead of a party led by Jeremy Corbyn?AmpfieldAndy said:I think the polls are irrelevant at this stage. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and she is still there because Tory MPs are all mouth and no trousers. She is leading Britain to a national humiliation with her Brexit plans, has no domestic policy agenda, and in Hammond has yet another tax and spend Chancellor who is presiding over a real standard of living crisis and ignoring productivity and investment needs.
Against any other political party, Labour’s problems with anti-semitism, misogyny and support for terrorist organisation isations would see it dead and buried in electoral terms. Against the clueless muppets that constitute the current Tory Party, it is still very much a political force to be reckoned with.
That's not as easy to pin down as it sounds because there is some dispute about who won the elections between 1846 and 1865. There is a case to be made that it was the Conservatives, but that they were seldom able to hold power (two spells of minority government) as the other four blocks that eventually coalesced into the Liberal party outvoted them.0 -
Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.Dura_Ace said:
At least they are not susceptible the ideology of never using blockquotes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.
The BBC's "line" is basically true. The industry of rearing animals to be killed for human food consumes huge amounts of water and energy to produce a vast amount of C02 and a relatively small amount of protein.
I think there's a healthy middle ground: as a species we have evolved to eat both meat and veg. But that doesn't mean we should eat only meat, and our meat consumption is far too great - perhaps partly because historically eating meat has been seen as a 'rich' thing or a treat.
Personally, I've eaten much less meat since I started going out with a vegetarian.
But another point should be made: Mrs J had been a vegetarian since her early teens, but started having a significant health issue that lasted quite a while. She is very careful with her diet, counts calories, vitamins etc to ensure she was getting everything her body requires. Someone recommended she tried eating fish. She did, and the problem went away. A year later she tried cutting out fish and replacing it with food supplements, but the problem recurred.
She is now a somewhat reluctant pescetarian: a small amount of fish once or twice a week (e.g. sardines) seems to keep the problem at bay. I've heard similar anecdotes from others.
Perhaps some people just cannot cope with long-term vegetarianism ...0 -
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.0
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That's not quite right. He continues to enthuse his base - which is maybe 25% of the electorate. At my non-political poker evening in deepest Surrey last night, we had a rare excursion into politics - half the table (in the 30-60 age range) were huge Corbyn enthusiasts: "he's the best thing that's happened to British politics in my lifetime", "such a refreshing change", etc. (The other half looked distinctly sceptical.) The local membership remain big fans too. What he doesn't do at the moment is make the non-base feel he's saying anything relevant to them - ambiguous on Brexit, preoccupied with things like the IHLR examples.ydoethur said:
There we differ. I can easily see them getting 75% plus between them. For me, the thing to watch will be turnout as disillusioned voters stay at home. I could see that dipping below 65%.
The next election could easily be won by the party that motivates its supporters best. This is where Corbyn's Marmite qualities remain a priceless asset to the Tories. He's not currently enthusing his base but he sure as hell enthuses theirs.
That needs to change. But I don't think May has anything like the depth of support. What she has is the opposite - little passionate support among the membership, but broad sympathy in the wider public for her impossible position and a degree of respect (which I share) for gamely plugging on. Floating voters will IMO be quite annoyed if the Tories do dump her after a halfway respectable Brexit deal.0 -
Given that since GE17 UKIP have gone bat-shit out-and-out racist, and are likely to have fewer candidates than GE17, the Tory position is perhaps a couple of points better over Labour than polling suggests, if an election were held now.HYUFD said:Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up
0 -
At least the cat came bottom.JosiasJessop said:
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
It is rather a curious combination.Alistair said:FTPT
Only by subterfuge! Sneaky liberals.Benpointer said:
We're weak on absolutely everything, and yet... we've achieved so much in the past 100 years. How strange!MaxPB said:I think the main problem with liberals is that they are weak. Just weak on absolutely everything.
It's a common trope of the fascist to present the enemy as both overwhelming and all powerful but also weak an snivelling.
0 -
That's something to chew overtlg86 said:I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
0 -
or of course if it doesn't make it halfwayNickPalmer said:
That's not quite right. He continues to enthuse his base - which is maybe 25% of the electorate. At my non-political poker evening in deepest Surrey last night, we had a rare excursion into politics - half the table (in the 30-60 age range) were huge Corbyn enthusiasts: "he's the best thing that's happened to British politics in my lifetime", "such a refreshing change", etc. (The other half looked distinctly sceptical.) The local membership remain big fans too. What he doesn't do at the moment is make the non-base feel he's saying anything relevant to them - ambiguous on Brexit, preoccupied with things like the IHLR examples.ydoethur said:
There we differ. I can easily see them getting 75% plus between them. For me, the thing to watch will be turnout as disillusioned voters stay at home. I could see that dipping below 65%.
The next election could easily be won by the party that motivates its supporters best. This is where Corbyn's Marmite qualities remain a priceless asset to the Tories. He's not currently enthusing his base but he sure as hell enthuses theirs.
That needs to change. But I don't think May has anything like the depth of support. What she has is the opposite - little passionate support among the membership, but broad sympathy in the wider public for her impossible position and a degree of respect (which I share) for gamely plugging on. Floating voters will IMO be quite annoyed if the Tories do dump her after a halfway respectable Brexit deal.0 -
President Trump has called Brazilian President elect Bolsonaro to congratulate him on his win and ensure 'they work side by side for the people of Brazil and the United States.'
Though Bolsonaro won the Presidency the Workers' Party still won most seats in the lower house of the Brazilian Congress though winning 56 seats to 52 seats for Mr Bolsonaro's party
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-460134080 -
Fair comment, defining his base more narrowly than I was.NickPalmer said:
That's not quite right. He continues to enthuse his base - which is maybe 25% of the electorate. At my non-political poker evening in deepest Surrey last night, we had a rare excursion into politics - half the table (in the 30-60 age range) were huge Corbyn enthusiasts: "he's the best thing that's happened to British politics in my lifetime", "such a refreshing change", etc. (The other half looked distinctly sceptical.) The local membership remain big fans too. What he doesn't do at the moment is make the non-base feel he's saying anything relevant to them - ambiguous on Brexit, preoccupied with things like the IHLR examples.ydoethur said:
There we differ. I can easily see them getting 75% plus between them. For me, the thing to watch will be turnout as disillusioned voters stay at home. I could see that dipping below 65%.
The next election could easily be won by the party that motivates its supporters best. This is where Corbyn's Marmite qualities remain a priceless asset to the Tories. He's not currently enthusing his base but he sure as hell enthuses theirs.
That needs to change. But I don't think May has anything like the depth of support. What she has is the opposite - little passionate support among the membership, but broad sympathy in the wider public for her impossible position and a degree of respect (which I share) for gamely plugging on. Floating voters will IMO be quite annoyed if the Tories do dump her after a halfway respectable Brexit deal.
How about, 'he's not enthusing his electoral coalition?'0 -
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.JosiasJessop said:
Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.0 -
In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
0 -
Wonderful but does need tatties and neeps to go with it.OldKingCole said:
What about some haggis and whisky?malcolmg said:
But a nice steak now and again , with a bottle of red is very good. They could just ration it. Also how could you live without an odd burger here and there.Dura_Ace said:
At least they are not susceptible the ideology of never using blockquotes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.
The BBC's "line" is basically true. The industry of rearing animals to be killed for human food consumes huge amounts of water and energy to produce a vast amount of C02 and a relatively small amount of protein.0 -
There's a lot at steak if meat eating gets the chop.MikeSmithson said:
That's something to chew overtlg86 said:I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
0 -
Cats are wonderful, they ought to have been top of the list.IanB2 said:
At least the cat came bottom.JosiasJessop said:
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
sugar is the greater evil.Dura_Ace said:
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.JosiasJessop said:
Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.0 -
Mr. Doethur, for the fight ahead, should our loins be girded, or sautéd?0
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There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”DavidL said:
The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.0 -
UKIP are the biggest threat to the Tories, the Greens the biggest threat to Labour yes and the LDs will target Remainers from bothIanB2 said:
As I have said before, the next election hangs on which of the larger parties loses most support to the minor parties. Labour is skewered between the Greens and LibDems just as the Tories are between LibDem and UKIP.HYUFD said:Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up
0 -
they offer twice as many drumsticks as chicken, I guess?AndyJS said:
Cats are wonderful, they ought to have been top of the list.IanB2 said:
At least the cat came bottom.JosiasJessop said:
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:JosiasJessop said:
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.AndyJS said:
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.0 -
Equating eating meat with shooting heroin just makes you sound an utter asshat.Dura_Ace said:
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.JosiasJessop said:
Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.0 -
The Tories won't dump May unless there's a broadly acceptable alternative. DDavis, the man who made Wacko Jacko his Chief of Staff, surely does not fit that bill. Once Brexit has happened then Hammond's chances might edge up.NickPalmer said:
That's not quite right. He continues to enthuse his base - which is maybe 25% of the electorate. At my non-political poker evening in deepest Surrey last night, we had a rare excursion into politics - half the table (in the 30-60 age range) were huge Corbyn enthusiasts: "he's the best thing that's happened to British politics in my lifetime", "such a refreshing change", etc. (The other half looked distinctly sceptical.) The local membership remain big fans too. What he doesn't do at the moment is make the non-base feel he's saying anything relevant to them - ambiguous on Brexit, preoccupied with things like the IHLR examples.ydoethur said:
There we differ. I can easily see them getting 75% plus between them. For me, the thing to watch will be turnout as disillusioned voters stay at home. I could see that dipping below 65%.
The next election could easily be won by the party that motivates its supporters best. This is where Corbyn's Marmite qualities remain a priceless asset to the Tories. He's not currently enthusing his base but he sure as hell enthuses theirs.
That needs to change. But I don't think May has anything like the depth of support. What she has is the opposite - little passionate support among the membership, but broad sympathy in the wider public for her impossible position and a degree of respect (which I share) for gamely plugging on. Floating voters will IMO be quite annoyed if the Tories do dump her after a halfway respectable Brexit deal.0 -
And no grown-ups round the table wondered how that isolationist slogan ("entangling alliances with none") would go down with NATO.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Deer me at that is desperateydoethur said:
There's a lot at steak if meat eating gets the chop.MikeSmithson said:
That's something to chew overtlg86 said:I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
0 -
After Tory Lord Liverpool it may have been the Liberals mainly under Palmerston during that period yes with the Tories divided over the Corn Laws repeal.ydoethur said:
I think I'm right in saying only once since 1832 has a party won four consecutive terms in government?HYUFD said:
The Tories are now into a third term in government, only once in the last century have they won a 4th term from 1992 to 1997 and if they win that it will be largely due to CorbynSouthamObserver said:
Yep, that’s the way I see it. How bad are the Tories to be only a few points ahead of a party led by Jeremy Corbyn?AmpfieldAndy said:I think the polls are irrelevant at this stage. May lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election and she is still there because Tory MPs are all mouth and no trousers. She is leading Britain to a national humiliation with her Brexit plans, has no domestic policy agenda, and in Hammond has yet another tax and spend Chancellor who is presiding over a real standard of living crisis and ignoring productivity and investment needs.
Against any other political party, Labour’s problems with anti-semitism, misogyny and support for terrorist organisation isations would see it dead and buried in electoral terms. Against the clueless muppets that constitute the current Tory Party, it is still very much a political force to be reckoned with.
That's not as easy to pin down as it sounds because there is some dispute about who won the elections between 1846 and 1865. There is a case to be made that it was the Conservatives, but that they were seldom able to hold power (two spells of minority government) as the other four blocks that eventually coalesced into the Liberal party outvoted them.0 -
I doubt meat eating will ever be banned. But I could easily imagine that if the externalities were properly costed and taxed, that meat eating would become much more expensive and thus less common.tlg86 said:I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
0 -
I'd back that up too. I love meat and even I eat less of it.rkrkrk said:
In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.Dura_Ace said:
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.DavidL said:Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
Probably the influence of Lisa Simpson on the young.0 -
Provided UKIP again lack candidates in half the seats yesMarqueeMark said:
Given that since GE17 UKIP have gone bat-shit out-and-out racist, and are likely to have fewer candidates than GE17, the Tory position is perhaps a couple of points better over Labour than polling suggests, if an election were held now.HYUFD said:Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up
0
