Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In October last year LAB had an average poll lead of 2.4% – th

124

Comments

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
    Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
    Cats were witches ‘familiars’.

    In other news Merkel has just announced she’s stepping down as Chancellor in 2021.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.

    The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.

    "Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."

    "I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.
    And most of them were Remainers
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,291
    edited October 2018
    Merkel to step down as Chancellor in 2021 (if given that choice).

    EDIT: Way too slow!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?

    100/1 against next Tory leader with most firms; 125/1 with Ladbrokes for next PM, but generally also 100/1.
    My wallet hopes she runs.
    My brain thinks she sounds more like a Labour leadership hopeful than a Tory.
    Not that far, Momentum will have nothing to do with her but Greening would have more chance of winning over the LD membership and succeeding Cable than winning over the Tory membership and succeeding May
    Quite. I don't think she's angling for the Lib Dem leadership, but I do wonder whether she's envisaging a post-Brexit split in the Conservatives.
    She could easily be in a new centrist party with Umunna, Soubry, Kendall, Swinson etc
  • Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    Less damage to the wheel alignment, I suppose.
    A chihuahua isn't going to knock it much out of whack.....
    My wife's aunt had a tomcat which ate a chihuaha.
    About 20 years ago I had a colleague. Her neighbours would get a cat. A few weeks later, my colleague's dog would kill the cat in her garden. She would bury the cat. The neighbours would look for their cat and put up posters. Six months later they would get another cat. Repeat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Merkel to give up as CDU party leader but will run for Chancellor
    Merkel hopes to remain Chancellor until 2021 though, if a loyalist succeeds her as CDU leader that is probable, if an opponent replaces her less likely.

    Her decision is the equivalent of May standing down as Tory leader but remaining PM until the next general election
    is it likely she stays to 2021 ?

    either her coalition breaks up and shes out, or it stays in place but she needs to go end 2019 to give a successor some time to build a platform
    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Will Merkel be given that long?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    "Works For Everyone" looks the worst bet at 1-10, not in last year's speech.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Nigelb said:

    It appears that Avenatti is serious about running in 2020:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/29/michael-avenatti-2020-election-campaign-944994

    Which, if nothing else, ought to provide some entertainment value.

    Fantastic.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752

    Will Merkel be given that long?

    There’s a big job in Europe coming free next year...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited October 2018
    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/autumn-budget-2017-philip-hammonds-speech

    Education in there only once... Nice potential long tail reward though.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Does hysterical anti-veganism correlate to Leaver / Gammon views? It seems to on here.

    Leavers remind me of Harry Enfield’s “Angry” Frank Doberman, working themselves up into a self-righteous froth over nowt.

    Oi, Vegans, Noooo!

    Gammon used to describe white middle aged men reddened in face due to blood pressure issues, who as a demographic are more likely to be leave voters. Calling them gammon connects the trait they have no control over and is only evident because their race with a set of political values. The word is then used to trivialise, ridicule and dismiss the person and their opinions.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Will Merkel be given that long?

    There’s a big job in Europe coming free next year...
    European Chief Negotiator for the United Kingdom Rejoining the European Union?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    notme said:

    Does hysterical anti-veganism correlate to Leaver / Gammon views? It seems to on here.

    Leavers remind me of Harry Enfield’s “Angry” Frank Doberman, working themselves up into a self-righteous froth over nowt.

    Oi, Vegans, Noooo!

    Gammon used to describe white middle aged men reddened in face due to blood pressure issues, who as a demographic are more likely to be leave voters. Calling them gammon connects the trait they have no control over and is only evident because their race with a set of political values. The word is then used to trivialise, ridicule and dismiss the person and their opinions.
    ie the internet in a nutshell.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    David Cameron and John Kerry announced as co chairmen of the Pew Bertarelli foundation to protect the world's Oceans

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2166492673375039&id=653092548048400
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    notme said:

    Does hysterical anti-veganism correlate to Leaver / Gammon views? It seems to on here.

    Leavers remind me of Harry Enfield’s “Angry” Frank Doberman, working themselves up into a self-righteous froth over nowt.

    Oi, Vegans, Noooo!

    Gammon used to describe white middle aged men reddened in face due to blood pressure issues, who as a demographic are more likely to be leave voters. Calling them gammon connects the trait they have no control over
    apart from diet, exercise, drinking, smoking etc. etc. etc.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”

    The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.
    My dad had fried locust whilst in north Africa in the 50s so it is hardly new. He didn't particularly commend it.
    Locusts will be a premium product

    We’re talking mealworm larvae

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/torontosun.com/2017/09/08/from-beef-to-bugs-swiss-supermarket-selling-insect-burgers/wcm/a80b6e58-75a6-4702-b93a-fcec8b7fa678/amp

  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.

    The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.

    "Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."

    "I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
    Greening, Kendall and Cooper (and Umunna etc) are indeed not Marxists, and none of them will excite the current ruling wings of their respective parties.

    But at some point, the 40 per cent in the middle who really couldn't give a shit which party is in power will alight on someone who can carry forward the "not very exciting but smooth-looking management of the country" which Blair and Cameron and possibly Major used to specialise in.

    I'm not sure it'll happen for the next election.. but maybe the one after. It'll probably be because one of the parties sees sense, because if they both sit there contemplating their own navels for too much longer, something else will come through the middle (and their Remainism will be less of an issue once we're out).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.

    Bad though the State results in Bavaria and Hesse have been for the coalition partners they aren't terminal by any stretch.

    Realistically, the coalition options are fairly limited. If we take the current numbers:

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

    The current coalition polls around 40% down from 53% with the Greens and AfD the big numbers (and Linke and FDP less so but still ahead). A CDU/CSU/Green Coalition would be close to a majority but could the CSU and Greens co-exist? A Green/SPD/Linke Coalition could work as well (a Green as German Chancellor??).

    Jamaica has a majority but it failed to happen before and why should it happen now? The FDP seem unable to work with anyone not CDU/CSU and AfD are basically beyond the pale it seems.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    And you don’t want to see either of them being made!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.

    Bad though the State results in Bavaria and Hesse have been for the coalition partners they aren't terminal by any stretch.

    Realistically, the coalition options are fairly limited. If we take the current numbers:

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

    The current coalition polls around 40% down from 53% with the Greens and AfD the big numbers (and Linke and FDP less so but still ahead). A CDU/CSU/Green Coalition would be close to a majority but could the CSU and Greens co-exist? A Green/SPD/Linke Coalition could work as well (a Green as German Chancellor??).

    Jamaica has a majority but it failed to happen before and why should it happen now? The FDP seem unable to work with anyone not CDU/CSU and AfD are basically beyond the pale it seems.
    A more conservative CDU leader might even consider the AfD unlike Merkel, CDU/CSU plus AfD would have had a majority in the 2017 Federal German election
  • Pulpstar said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/autumn-budget-2017-philip-hammonds-speech

    Education in there only once... Nice potential long tail reward though.

    Has that ever been posted online in full before the speech before now? Seems odd.

    Curious about the bits [political content removed]
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    matt said:

    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
    No it doesn’t

    You can now buy eggs fertilised with sorted semen that have a 90% probability of being female.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Pulpstar said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/autumn-budget-2017-philip-hammonds-speech

    Education in there only once... Nice potential long tail reward though.

    Has that ever been posted online in full before the speech before now? Seems odd.

    Curious about the bits [political content removed]
    Not sure, no reason the budget shouldn't be published online though !

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2017-11-22/debates/B69FC1F9-C316-43AA-8FFF-B7D76587EA9D/FinancialStatement is what was actually said I suppose.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Pulpstar said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/autumn-budget-2017-philip-hammonds-speech

    Education in there only once... Nice potential long tail reward though.

    Has that ever been posted online in full before the speech before now? Seems odd.

    Curious about the bits [political content removed]
    The Gov.uk record takes out political jokes and jibes - see

    Published.
    This will mean a bottle of whisky will be £1.15 less in 2018 [political content removed]

    Hansard recorded.
    This will mean that a bottle of whisky will be £1.15 less in 2018 than if we had continued with Labour’s plans, and a pint of beer 12p less. So, merry Christmas, Mr Deputy Speaker.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?

    Speaking as a great fan of Justine Greening as Education Secretary where her key talent was not to royally bugger things up a la all her predecessors and especially Nicky Morgan and Michael Gove, whatever they are they're still much too short. You need more than that from a PM.
    I’ve* been doing some research into phonetics vs whole word and other trading approaches

    Do you have a view

    * I = my wife
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    philiph said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
    I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
    Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
    There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
    You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
    As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat.
    Yes, our tom was licking the apple crumble last night >.>
    Is that a metaphor?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?

    100/1 against next Tory leader with most firms; 125/1 with Ladbrokes for next PM, but generally also 100/1.
    My wallet hopes she runs.
    My brain thinks she sounds more like a Labour leadership hopeful than a Tory.
    Not that far, Momentum will have nothing to do with her but Greening would have more chance of winning over the LD membership and succeeding Cable than winning over the Tory membership and succeeding May
    Quite. I don't think she's angling for the Lib Dem leadership, but I do wonder whether she's envisaging a post-Brexit split in the Conservatives.
    She could easily be in a new centrist party with Umunna, Soubry, Kendall, Swinson etc
    Unlikely but not impossible. Even more unlikely, but again not impossible is a big influx of remainers into the Tory party looking for a soulmate to vote into the leadership. I've decided to bung £5 at the best odds I can get on it anyway.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2018

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.

    The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.

    "Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."

    "I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.
    That's not a problem. Ultimately politics is a spectrum, although it is more of a circle than a straight line. People will be on the spectrum at different points like a bell curve and ultimately there must come a point whereby the differences aren't that significant to someone miles away.

    But its not just the centre-left and centre-right that have similarities. So do the far-left and far-right. Hence why I spoke of a circle to the spectrum. At the extremes the far-left and far-right are very similar too on many social and other issues and again the differences from afar are a matter of degrees. Hence why the far-left are so content with antisemitism that would fit with the far right but is opposed by both centre-left and centre-right.

    Once could play the "who said it" game with quotes from the far left and far right and be completely unable to figure out who said which. In fact in many ways one can do that with Trump and Corbyn. In their attacks on the media, political opponents, bogeymen they and their followers dislike (both including Jews) Trump has more in common with Corbyn than he does any of eg Tony Blair, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Justine Greening, David Cameron or Theresa May.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    philiph said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
    I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
    Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
    There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
    You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
    As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat.
    Yes, our tom was licking the apple crumble last night >.>
    Is that a metaphor?
    No. He was on the unit ! Both me and my fiancée suspect we have eternal low level toxoplasmosis.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    David Cameron and John Kerry announced as co chairmen of the Pew Bertarelli foundation to protect the world's Oceans

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2166492673375039&id=653092548048400

    Do they have an initiation ceremony?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    HYUFD said:

    A more conservative CDU leader might even consider the AfD unlike Merkel, CDU/CSU plus AfD would have had a majority in the 2017 Federal German election

    The rise of Brinkhaus and Dobrindt as well as the comments of Christian Hartmann in Saxony suggest the CDU/CSU is certainly going to move to a more socially conservative position post Merkel/Seehofer though Hartmann's refusal to rule out a coalition with the AfD is probably more about Saxony politics than anything else.

    Would the FDP support a socially conservative coalition - it seems unlikely so does this open the door to a Green/SPD/FDP alternative - not at the moment but if a post-Merkel CDU shifts position who knows ? This all assumes the AfD is made up of socially conservative CDU voters but as we see with UKIP here it's dangerous to make such assumptions and politics is more complicated than that.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/autumn-budget-2017-philip-hammonds-speech

    Education in there only once... Nice potential long tail reward though.

    Has that ever been posted online in full before the speech before now? Seems odd.

    Curious about the bits [political content removed]
    Not sure, no reason the budget shouldn't be published online though !

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2017-11-22/debates/B69FC1F9-C316-43AA-8FFF-B7D76587EA9D/FinancialStatement is what was actually said I suppose.
    Oh that was last year's speech/ I thought it was this year's! Wondered why it was out so early, didn't spot on the title bar it says 2017 which should have been a giveaway.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.

    Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.

    Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
    Another tribe of snowflakes coming down the track...

    "That sausage 10m away is being violent to me because I can see it".

    cf Our somewhat-loopy Chief Constable seems to regard things that you do not like but overhear by earwigging as being some sort of hate crime.
    Do you need a safe space where those nasty vegans can't get to you?
    Nope, but the madder elements do need to be addressed:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42833132

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    edited October 2018
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2018
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.

    Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.

    Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
    Another tribe of snowflakes coming down the track...

    "That sausage 10m away is being violent to me because I can see it".

    cf Our somewhat-loopy Chief Constable seems to regard things that you do not like but overhear by earwigging as being some sort of hate crime.
    Do you need a safe space where those nasty vegans can't get to you?
    Nope, but the madder elements do need to be addressed:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42833132

    Veganism/vegetarianism and other dietary beliefs, like religions, are just like a penis.

    It's OK to have one. It's OK to be proud of it. But please don't whip it out and wave it around in public ... and please try don't shove it down mine or my child's throat.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
    No it doesn’t

    You can now buy eggs fertilised with sorted semen that have a 90% probability of being female.
    But you still need cocks and bulls...
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
    No it doesn’t

    You can now buy eggs fertilised with sorted semen that have a 90% probability of being female.
    So we presumably go from organic to intensive for cereal production, as it is possibility far more efficient in a highjer intensity setting, and we have to go high intensity to free up land for the forests...
    "Energy use per unit milk in organic dairy is approximately 25% lower than in conventional dairy, while GHG emissions are 5-10% lower. Contrary to dairy farming, energy use and GHG emissions in organic crop production are higher than in conventional crop production. Energy use in organic arable farming is 10-30% and in organic vegetable farming 40-50% higher than in their respective conventional counterparts. GHG emissions in organic arable and vegetable farming are 0-15% and 35-40% higher, respectively."
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1573521413000705
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
    The size of the Lords is reducing at the moment, mainly thanks to Corbyn's near-boycott of it.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1055721482058371072
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Will Merkel be given that long?

    So, is the value bet on who leaves first, TMay or Merkel?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited October 2018
    So I think since the last time we had a poll from them (14-16 August) the changes are:

    Con 43 (+6)
    Lab 40 (=)
    Lib Dem 6 (-2)
    Ukip 5 (-1)
    SNP 4 (+1)
    PC 0 (-1)
    Green 2 (-3)
  • MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
    The size of the Lords is reducing at the moment, mainly thanks to Corbyn's near-boycott of it.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1055721482058371072
    Any reason why Theresa May has only appointed net 4 Tories since 2016? That's not many. I seem to recall Cameron appointing more than that, if she'd kept up Cameron's rate of appointments while Corbyn boycotted then that would have really changed things more.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:
    18% Adonis fans
    29% Remainers
    29% Rational Brexiteers
    9% ERG
    15% Leave.EU
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2018
    OchEye said:

    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
    No it doesn’t

    You can now buy eggs fertilised with sorted semen that have a 90% probability of being female.
    But you still need cocks and bulls...
    Not large scale

    I think Picston Shottle produced over 1bn units of semen (he only died in 2015)

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/dairy/dairy-bull-legend-picston-shottle-dies
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
    The size of the Lords is reducing at the moment, mainly thanks to Corbyn's near-boycott of it.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1055721482058371072
    Any reason why Theresa May has only appointed net 4 Tories since 2016? That's not many. I seem to recall Cameron appointing more than that, if she'd kept up Cameron's rate of appointments while Corbyn boycotted then that would have really changed things more.
    I don't know. Of the 25 Tory peers appointed since the start of 2016, more than half (13) came from Cameron's resignation list. With another appointed before Cameron resigned, that leaves just 12 nominated by May, which is an extremely low rate for a sitting PM. Perhaps it's a deliberate attempt to reduce the size of the upper House and with Corbyn not making appointments, and the LDs over-represented, she's happy to maintain the current balance?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Scott_P said:
    +6 is rather more than margin of error.....

    I wonder if Labour are beginning to realise their studied silence on Brexit has developed not neccessarily to their advantage?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    ydoethur said:

    Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?

    Speaking as a great fan of Justine Greening as Education Secretary where her key talent was not to royally bugger things up a la all her predecessors and especially Nicky Morgan and Michael Gove, whatever they are they're still much too short. You need more than that from a PM.
    I dunno.
    Not royally buggering things up would be something of an advance on most of the alternatives.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
    The size of the Lords is reducing at the moment, mainly thanks to Corbyn's near-boycott of it.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1055721482058371072
    But is this linked to many of the potential candidates eg credible former Cabinet Ministers being non-Corbynistas?

    In the event of a Corbyn victory will there be a human-wave attack of apparatchiks on the Lords, justified in theory by the above numbers?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Yeah, Dunkirk was just those pesky Little Englanders at it again....

    Extracting ourselves from a catastrophe in Europe must really rankle, huh?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    I do hope* people keep their views on keeping the Lords or otherwise consistent throughout any potential Corbyn Gov't incoming.

    *Yes on both sides of the debate
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Yeah, Dunkirk was just those pesky Little Englanders at it again....

    Extracting ourselves from a catastrophe in Europe must really rankle, huh?
    Manufacturing our own self-inflicted catastrophe rankles more.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Amazing that despite everything we're still more or less where we were in 2016...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing that despite everything we're still more or less where we were in 2016...
    It's almost as though the public at large haven't been following the threads on PB.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
    No it doesn’t

    You can now buy eggs fertilised with sorted semen that have a 90% probability of being female.
    If I were you, I'd stick with the caviare, Charles.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    TOPPING said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Amazing that despite everything we're still more or less where we were in 2016...
    It's almost as though the public at large haven't been following the threads on PB.
    They have been. Nothing has changed on PB since 2016 ;)
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Foxy said:

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
    Promising Hong Kong to the Chinese when they were not expecting to get it back was not exactly a foreign policy success either.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Foxy said:

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
    Promising Hong Kong to the Chinese when they were not expecting to get it back was not exactly a foreign policy success either.
    Whoa Tiger(ress?)

    Hong Kong was on a fixed term lease and the PRC were counting the days (literally) until handover. They would have taken over a pile of rubble if necessary, but take it over they always wanted and were planning to do.

    Macau, meanwhile, they couldn't have given a stuff about and were offered it back I think a few times before the lease expiry.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
    Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
    Some medieval people liked to do nasty things to them, like tying them in sacks and throwing them on bonfires. Some people did keep cats as pets (aside from their value as mousers) but there was always a risk of being denounced as a witch if you did so.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.

    The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.

    "Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."

    "I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.
    That's not a problem. Ultimately politics is a spectrum, although it is more of a circle than a straight line. People will be on the spectrum at different points like a bell curve and ultimately there must come a point whereby the differences aren't that significant to someone miles away.

    But its not just the centre-left and centre-right that have similarities. So do the far-left and far-right. Hence why I spoke of a circle to the spectrum. At the extremes the far-left and far-right are very similar too on many social and other issues and again the differences from afar are a matter of degrees. Hence why the far-left are so content with antisemitism that would fit with the far right but is opposed by both centre-left and centre-right.

    Once could play the "who said it" game with quotes from the far left and far right and be completely unable to figure out who said which. In fact in many ways one can do that with Trump and Corbyn. In their attacks on the media, political opponents, bogeymen they and their followers dislike (both including Jews) Trump has more in common with Corbyn than he does any of eg Tony Blair, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Justine Greening, David Cameron or Theresa May.
    That horseshoe theory stuff is however based on superficial similarities - they both oppose the liberal consensus and both believe in any means necessary. Yet the far left and far right see themselves as mortal enemies and the set of value systems that drive people to one are dramatically different from the other.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
    Promising Hong Kong to the Chinese when they were not expecting to get it back was not exactly a foreign policy success either.
    Whoa Tiger(ress?)

    Hong Kong was on a fixed term lease and the PRC were counting the days (literally) until handover. They would have taken over a pile of rubble if necessary, but take it over they always wanted and were planning to do.

    Macau, meanwhile, they couldn't have given a stuff about and were offered it back I think a few times before the lease expiry.
    Most of HK was on a fixed lease, but the original core, Hong Kong Island and the closest part of the Kowloon peninsula, had been ceded in perpetuity. Practically speaking though, the core had no chance of being a viable entity without the leased New Territories so the UK really had no choice but to offer to return the core as well.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751

    Scott_P said:
    +6 is rather more than margin of error.....

    I wonder if Labour are beginning to realise their studied silence on Brexit has developed not neccessarily to their advantage?
    +6 might just be within MoE.

    If MoE is +/-3%, then a party with an actual share of 40% could be reported anywhere between 37-43 under an accurate methodology (and even then, there'd be 1 outlier in 20), so to go from 37 to 43 isn't necessarily inconsistent with no underlying change, though it is highly indicative of it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.

    The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.

    "Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."

    "I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.
    That's not a problem. Ultimately politics is a spectrum, although it is more of a circle than a straight line. People will be on the spectrum at different points like a bell curve and ultimately there must come a point whereby the differences aren't that significant to someone miles away.

    But its not just the centre-left and centre-right that have similarities. So do the far-left and far-right. Hence why I spoke of a circle to the spectrum. At the extremes the far-left and far-right are very similar too on many social and other issues and again the differences from afar are a matter of degrees. Hence why the far-left are so content with antisemitism that would fit with the far right but is opposed by both centre-left and centre-right.

    Once could play the "who said it" game with quotes from the far left and far right and be completely unable to figure out who said which. In fact in many ways one can do that with Trump and Corbyn. In their attacks on the media, political opponents, bogeymen they and their followers dislike (both including Jews) Trump has more in common with Corbyn than he does any of eg Tony Blair, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Justine Greening, David Cameron or Theresa May.
    That horseshoe theory stuff is however based on superficial similarities - they both oppose the liberal consensus and both believe in any means necessary. Yet the far left and far right see themselves as mortal enemies and the set of value systems that drive people to one are dramatically different from the other.
    In practice, totalitarian regimes have more in common than dividing them, however great their philosophical differences.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
    Promising Hong Kong to the Chinese when they were not expecting to get it back was not exactly a foreign policy success either.
    Whoa Tiger(ress?)

    Hong Kong was on a fixed term lease and the PRC were counting the days (literally) until handover. They would have taken over a pile of rubble if necessary, but take it over they always wanted and were planning to do.

    Macau, meanwhile, they couldn't have given a stuff about and were offered it back I think a few times before the lease expiry.
    Most of HK was on a fixed lease, but the original core, Hong Kong Island and the closest part of the Kowloon peninsula, had been ceded in perpetuity. Practically speaking though, the core had no chance of being a viable entity without the leased New Territories so the UK really had no choice but to offer to return the core as well.
    Yes.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Sean_F said:

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
    Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
    Some medieval people liked to do nasty things to them, like tying them in sacks and throwing them on bonfires. Some people did keep cats as pets (aside from their value as mousers) but there was always a risk of being denounced as a witch if you did so.
    I was just reading that the Black Death of the 14th century was acerbated because a belief arose that cats were a vector for the disease and so many were killed that the actual vector, the rat and its fleas, proliferated.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    TOPPING said:

    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
    Promising Hong Kong to the Chinese when they were not expecting to get it back was not exactly a foreign policy success either.
    Whoa Tiger(ress?)

    Hong Kong was on a fixed term lease and the PRC were counting the days (literally) until handover. They would have taken over a pile of rubble if necessary, but take it over they always wanted and were planning to do.

    Macau, meanwhile, they couldn't have given a stuff about and were offered it back I think a few times before the lease expiry.
    Most of HK was on a fixed lease, but the original core, Hong Kong Island and the closest part of the Kowloon peninsula, had been ceded in perpetuity. Practically speaking though, the core had no chance of being a viable entity without the leased New Territories so the UK really had no choice but to offer to return the core as well.
    Yes.
    I highly recommend the China History Podcast's 10-part series on the history of Hong Kong.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    IanB2 said:



    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.

    That's not a problem. Ultimately politics is a spectrum, although it is more of a circle than a straight line. People will be on the spectrum at different points like a bell curve and ultimately there must come a point whereby the differences aren't that significant to someone miles away.

    But its not just the centre-left and centre-right that have similarities. So do the far-left and far-right. Hence why I spoke of a circle to the spectrum. At the extremes the far-left and far-right are very similar too on many social and other issues and again the differences from afar are a matter of degrees. Hence why the far-left are so content with antisemitism that would fit with the far right but is opposed by both centre-left and centre-right.

    Once could play the "who said it" game with quotes from the far left and far right and be completely unable to figure out who said which. In fact in many ways one can do that with Trump and Corbyn. In their attacks on the media, political opponents, bogeymen they and their followers dislike (both including Jews) Trump has more in common with Corbyn than he does any of eg Tony Blair, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Justine Greening, David Cameron or Theresa May.
    That horseshoe theory stuff is however based on superficial similarities - they both oppose the liberal consensus and both believe in any means necessary. Yet the far left and far right see themselves as mortal enemies and the set of value systems that drive people to one are dramatically different from the other.
    Not really. Both far left and far right operate on blame, grievance and, at the extremes, hatred. The difference is that the far left reserve their hatred and blame for class enemies, whereas those on the far right blame their victim status on nationality, ethnicity and so on. But really, that difference is fairly superficial. Jews, obviously, tick both boxes.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    rpjs said:

    Sean_F said:

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
    Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
    Some medieval people liked to do nasty things to them, like tying them in sacks and throwing them on bonfires. Some people did keep cats as pets (aside from their value as mousers) but there was always a risk of being denounced as a witch if you did so.
    I was just reading that the Black Death of the 14th century was acerbated because a belief arose that cats were a vector for the disease and so many were killed that the actual vector, the rat and its fleas, proliferated.
    In France, there was a widespread belief that the lepers were responsible for spreading the Black Death, so several thousands of them were burned at the stake.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    rpjs said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Fenman said:

    Fenman said:

    A new 50p coin to celebrate Brexit. Presumably because that's what Britain will then be worth

    We could lobby them to start a "Disaster Coinage Collection" and have 50p pieces for Chamberlain (1939), Suez, Brexit, etc.....

    We could maybe add in 1776 (USA) and possibly 1916-22 (Ireland) for a set of five
    How about Dunkirk (1940)? Mind you we'd have to explain to JRM et al that this wasn't actually a victory
    Perhaps Singapore 1942, marking our end as a power in the Far East, and when Australia turned to the Yanks for protection?
    Promising Hong Kong to the Chinese when they were not expecting to get it back was not exactly a foreign policy success either.
    Whoa Tiger(ress?)

    Hong Kong was on a fixed term lease and the PRC were counting the days (literally) until handover. They would have taken over a pile of rubble if necessary, but take it over they always wanted and were planning to do.

    Macau, meanwhile, they couldn't have given a stuff about and were offered it back I think a few times before the lease expiry.
    Most of HK was on a fixed lease, but the original core, Hong Kong Island and the closest part of the Kowloon peninsula, had been ceded in perpetuity. Practically speaking though, the core had no chance of being a viable entity without the leased New Territories so the UK really had no choice but to offer to return the core as well.
    Yes.
    I highly recommend the China History Podcast's 10-part series on the history of Hong Kong.
    It is a fascinating place.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    Scott_P said:
    +6 is rather more than margin of error.....

    I wonder if Labour are beginning to realise their studied silence on Brexit has developed not neccessarily to their advantage?
    Most recent polls are compatible with a "true" position of 40/39/9
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2018
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.

    The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.

    "Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."

    "I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.
    That's not a problem. Ultimately politics is a spectrum, although it is more of a circle than a straight line. People will be on the spectrum at different points like a bell curve and ultimately there must come a point whereby the differences aren't that significant to someone miles away.

    But its not just the centre-left and centre-right that have similarities. So do the far-left and far-right. Hence why I spoke of a circle to the spectrum. At the extremes the far-left and far-right are very similar too on many social and other issues and again the differences from afar are a matter of degrees. Hence why the far-left are so content with antisemitism that would fit with the far right but is opposed by both centre-left and centre-right.

    Once could play the "who said it" game with quotes from the far left and far right and be completely unable to figure out who said which. In fact in many ways one can do that with Trump and Corbyn. In their attacks on the media, political opponents, bogeymen they and their followers dislike (both including Jews) Trump has more in common with Corbyn than he does any of eg Tony Blair, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Justine Greening, David Cameron or Theresa May.
    That horseshoe theory stuff is however based on superficial similarities - they both oppose the liberal consensus and both believe in any means necessary. Yet the far left and far right see themselves as mortal enemies and the set of value systems that drive people to one are dramatically different from the other.
    How is that any different to the centre left and centre right seeing themselves as mortal enemies etc?
  • MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
    The size of the Lords is reducing at the moment, mainly thanks to Corbyn's near-boycott of it.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1055721482058371072
    Any reason why Theresa May has only appointed net 4 Tories since 2016? That's not many. I seem to recall Cameron appointing more than that, if she'd kept up Cameron's rate of appointments while Corbyn boycotted then that would have really changed things more.
    I don't know. Of the 25 Tory peers appointed since the start of 2016, more than half (13) came from Cameron's resignation list. With another appointed before Cameron resigned, that leaves just 12 nominated by May, which is an extremely low rate for a sitting PM. Perhaps it's a deliberate attempt to reduce the size of the upper House and with Corbyn not making appointments, and the LDs over-represented, she's happy to maintain the current balance?
    The she is not really getting that much of a gift from Corbyn's refusal to appoint many.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OT there has been a plunge on Strong Economy in the 2.05 (about to start) at Ayr: 10/1 into 4/1.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:



    That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.

    That's not a problem. Ultimately politics is a spectrum, although it is more of a circle than a straight line. People will be on the spectrum at different points like a bell curve and ultimately there must come a point whereby the differences aren't that significant to someone miles away.

    But its not just the centre-left and centre-right that have similarities. So do the far-left and far-right. Hence why I spoke of a circle to the spectrum. At the extremes the far-left and far-right are very similar too on many social and other issues and again the differences from afar are a matter of degrees. Hence why the far-left are so content with antisemitism that would fit with the far right but is opposed by both centre-left and centre-right.

    Once could play the "who said it" game with quotes from the far left and far right and be completely unable to figure out who said which. In fact in many ways one can do that with Trump and Corbyn. In their attacks on the media, political opponents, bogeymen they and their followers dislike (both including Jews) Trump has more in common with Corbyn than he does any of eg Tony Blair, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Justine Greening, David Cameron or Theresa May.
    That horseshoe theory stuff is however based on superficial similarities - they both oppose the liberal consensus and both believe in any means necessary. Yet the far left and far right see themselves as mortal enemies and the set of value systems that drive people to one are dramatically different from the other.
    Not really. Both far left and far right operate on blame, grievance and, at the extremes, hatred. The difference is that the far left reserve their hatred and blame for class enemies, whereas those on the far right blame their victim status on nationality, ethnicity and so on. But really, that difference is fairly superficial. Jews, obviously, tick both boxes.
    You make my point. Similarity of means and a shared opponent doesn't rest upon similarity of ideology or world view.
  • OT there has been a plunge on Strong Economy in the 2.05 (about to start) at Ayr: 10/1 into 4/1.

    Punters mistakenly thinking they were logged in to the budget bingo market?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    edited October 2018
    Good afternoon, comrades.

    Edited extra bit: post-race ramble for those who missed it:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/10/mexico-post-race-analysis-2018.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    No: senior Tories hate Hammond because he challenges their magical thinking about Brexit, their faith that our departure from the EU will be a triumph of the will if we dare to embrace the power of positive thinking. Tediously, laboriously, but entirely correctly, the chancellor maintains that bravado and conviction have nothing to do with it: Brexit will be a highly technical, operational matter, not an exercise in pageantry and rightwing performance art.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    OT there has been a plunge on Strong Economy in the 2.05 (about to start) at Ayr: 10/1 into 4/1.

    Punters mistakenly thinking they were logged in to the budget bingo market?
    The race was won comfortably by Callthebarman. An omen, no doubt.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Scott_P said:
    +6 is rather more than margin of error.....
    I wonder if Labour are beginning to realise their studied silence on Brexit has developed not neccessarily to their advantage?
    Not so much a studied silence on Brexit, I think, Mr Mark. Rather that all their spokesmen are saying different things. Sooner or later, people want some clarity about the Labour position.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    +6 is rather more than margin of error.....

    I wonder if Labour are beginning to realise their studied silence on Brexit has developed not neccessarily to their advantage?

    Except that, contrary to some other recent polls, the Conservative rise has come from the minor parties including the LDs, UKIP and the Greens rather than Labour.

    I'm trying to figure out what's going on given the other findings in the poll regarding people's perception of what the Brexit will be like. Short term pain for long term gain ? Perhaps.

    I'm also wondering if the electorate are playing to the well-rehearsed Conservative them of blaming the EU IF the negotiations go wrong or stall.

    Beyond that, is there a perception that even if Armageddon is apparently at hand, people trust the Conservatives to steer the country through disaster and out the other side?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited October 2018
    Race on at around 3 for me, it is priced as follows:

    6-44-9 "Open Wallet"
    3-1 "Three legged thumper"
    8-1 "Unlucky bunny"
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:



    That horseshoe theory stuff is however based on superficial similarities - they both oppose the liberal consensus and both believe in any means necessary. Yet the far left and far right see themselves as mortal enemies and the set of value systems that drive people to one are dramatically different from the other.

    Not really. Both far left and far right operate on blame, grievance and, at the extremes, hatred. The difference is that the far left reserve their hatred and blame for class enemies, whereas those on the far right blame their victim status on nationality, ethnicity and so on. But really, that difference is fairly superficial. Jews, obviously, tick both boxes.
    You make my point. Similarity of means and a shared opponent doesn't rest upon similarity of ideology or world view.
    It's practically the same world view.

    I am a victim because:
    - There is a group which is unfairly threatening my way of life, and those of people like me;
    - That group is exclusionary, easily identifiable and definable;
    - The normal rules of politics and economics cannot be used (by themselves) to address the problem because the group oppressing me either controls those systems or has protectors who do so;
    Therefore:
    - The only way to fight back for the rights which this group has taken from me is to counter-organise;
    - Their laws and systems exist to protect themselves, are therefore not legitimate and can be ignored;
    - Long-terms security can only come from smashing the oppressors, either by taking the source of their power away or by more physical means.

    That the group/s blamed varies between far right and far left is more a matter of personal taste and experience of the extremist. The same 'logic' leads to either.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,712
    edited October 2018
    Theresa May has said she wants to reduce the size of the Lords and this is consistent with the Lords itself saying its size should be reduced.

    See letter from Theresa May to Lord Fowler:

    https://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-information-office/2018/The Lord Fowler_001.pdf

    Note that even if Corbyn had wanted to appoint more Peers he would only have been allowed to appoint approx 10 more - which would still have left the Lords down 36 overall (instead of 46).
  • Pulpstar said:

    Race on at around 3 for me, it is priced as follows:

    6-44-9 "Open Wallet"
    3-1 "Three legged thumper"
    8-1 "Unlucky bunny"

    What about 'Near Miss"?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044
    Sean_F said:

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
    Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
    Some medieval people liked to do nasty things to them, like tying them in sacks and throwing them on bonfires. Some people did keep cats as pets (aside from their value as mousers) but there was always a risk of being denounced as a witch if you did so.
    Wasn't it also considered to be good luck* to brick up a live cat in the walls of a new house?

    The mummified cats are apparently now some sort of valuable collectable.

    *Not for the cat
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Pulpstar said:

    Race on at around 3 for me, it is priced as follows:

    6-44-9 "Open Wallet"
    3-1 "Three legged thumper"
    8-1 "Unlucky bunny"

    What about 'Near Miss"?
    Pulled as a runner, "Further complications" takes the final stall at 10-1.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The coalition will likely last the course as the last one did and the CDU chair can campaign while she stays Chancellor.

    Aznar did a similar thing in 2004 when he was PM but Rajoy PP leader during that year's Spanish general election

    I just love how the Hesse Landtag has been expanded from 110 to 137 seats to incorporate Linke, AfD and FDP all getting above 5%. I suppose in a proportional environment the size of the Commons wouldn't be fixed either.
    Is that not almost the arrangement we currently have in the Lords?

    No one has to leave, so the Govt expand the chamber until they think they have the correct proportion, whilst expanding the Opposition at an acceptably smaller rate.

    Thank flip for the SNP.
    The size of the Lords is reducing at the moment, mainly thanks to Corbyn's near-boycott of it.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1055721482058371072
    Any reason why Theresa May has only appointed net 4 Tories since 2016? That's not many. I seem to recall Cameron appointing more than that, if she'd kept up Cameron's rate of appointments while Corbyn boycotted then that would have really changed things more.
    I don't know. Of the 25 Tory peers appointed since the start of 2016, more than half (13) came from Cameron's resignation list. With another appointed before Cameron resigned, that leaves just 12 nominated by May, which is an extremely low rate for a sitting PM. Perhaps it's a deliberate attempt to reduce the size of the upper House and with Corbyn not making appointments, and the LDs over-represented, she's happy to maintain the current balance?
    The she is not really getting that much of a gift from Corbyn's refusal to appoint many.
    The Tories have improved their position vs Labour by 27 since 1/1/16 (and by 37 against all other parties, and by 54 against all other peers). Much of that might be down to Cameron but all the same, those are sizable movements.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited October 2018
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?

    Speaking as a great fan of Justine Greening as Education Secretary where her key talent was not to royally bugger things up a la all her predecessors and especially Nicky Morgan and Michael Gove, whatever they are they're still much too short. You need more than that from a PM.
    I’ve* been doing some research into phonetics vs whole word and other trading approaches

    Do you have a view

    * I = my wife
    @Charles

    No (and do you mean 'training' rather than 'trading')?

    The best advice I could give you would be to find what method works for your(?) child and go with it. That may be phonics, or phonetics, or spelling out letter by letter, or a mixture.

    One of the most damaging ideas of the National Curriculum, brought to its apogee with those stupid Literacy and Numeracy hours, was that all children learn the same way, and therefore teach them the same way and they will all learn the same things at the same rate - with predictably disastrous results.

    Without wishing to sound all Vygotskean, this idea was such obvious and total bollocks that you wonder even somebody of the limited intellectual calibre of the average official at the DFE would entertain it for more than a second.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    It is possible to park a car using only twelve functional neutrons...
    https://techxplore.com/news/2018-10-artificial-intelligenceparking-car-neurons.html
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Sean_F said:

    stjohn said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.

    Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
    On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:

    image
    I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
    the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
    It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
    Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
    Some medieval people liked to do nasty things to them, like tying them in sacks and throwing them on bonfires. Some people did keep cats as pets (aside from their value as mousers) but there was always a risk of being denounced as a witch if you did so.
    Wasn't it also considered to be good luck* to brick up a live cat in the walls of a new house?

    The mummified cats are apparently now some sort of valuable collectable.

    *Not for the cat
    I'd never heard of that.
This discussion has been closed.