To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption
Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)
Beef - 5.7 Pigs - 2.6 Poultry - 2.2 Dairy - 1.9 (I think) Fish - 1.7 (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s) Insect - 1.1
Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)
There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue
For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein
Here endeth the lesson
Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
And, who would want to be a vegan?
We discussed something like this the other day; it isn’t really natural to consume dairy products (apart from human milk) but in (particularly) Europe we’ve evolved in a way that lets us do it. In other parts of the world, particularly East Asia it’s not so.
As far as Jeremy Corbyn is concerned,I cannot remember a politician who has been the victim of so many lies.It reaks of fear,not fear of Mr Corbyn,but fear of you and what actions you may determine collectively in a democracy.Sadly,Pb is just an organ for the bean-crunchers union.
As far as Jeremy Corbyn is concerned,I cannot remember a politician who has been the victim of so many lies.It reaks of fear,not fear of Mr Corbyn,but fear of you and what actions you may determine collectively in a democracy.Sadly,Pb is just an organ for the bean-crunchers union.
The worst lies were those which quoted the words he actually used, videos of him saying these things. When they used a picture to say he was doing something that he was clearly doing and even wrote an article about doing at the time, it was proof they had gone too far.
As far as Jeremy Corbyn is concerned,I cannot remember a politician who has been the victim of so many lies.It reaks of fear,not fear of Mr Corbyn,but fear of you and what actions you may determine collectively in a democracy.Sadly,Pb is just an organ for the bean-crunchers union.
As far as PB goes, the clue is in the name.
Ref Mr Corbyn, something doesn't become a lie merely because it's inconvenient for him.
That said, given Trump, Brexit, Brazil, and the rise in support for the populist right and left in many other countries, people should indeed be fearful of the power of the vote used without sufficient care and attention.
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
I live in a household with two other vegans. For both of them it’s about the welfare of the animals more than anything else. Both will eat the small supply of eggs I get from someone who keeps hens in his back yard. My wife would probably entertain eating meat at some point if she was actually sure that the quality of life of the animals was better.
She’s not overtly fussy about cooking meaty things for me, but the line is chicken. Even free range, as she says it, are kept in the most appalling conditions that it makes her feel sick.
Of course the endless showing of videos of abuses in slaughterhouses on social media don’t help.
If they eat eggs they are not vegan surely? And 'free range chickens are kept in the most appalling conditions' seems odd to me.
They way I justify my (occasional) meat consumption is firstly aim to buy meat which comes with some assurance that the animal has been well looked after and b) I think to myself these animals would exist at all if we were all veggies
Is it better for an animal to have lived a good life then be slaughtered humanely or to never have lived at all?
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption
Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)
Beef - 5.7 Pigs - 2.6 Poultry - 2.2 Dairy - 1.9 (I think) Fish - 1.7 (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s) Insect - 1.1
Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)
There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue
For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein
Here endeth the lesson
Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.
Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.
Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
I do consider both of those things a possibility, though I'm less inclined to buy the former...
I think the idea that more there'll be more scrutiny on Labour's manifesto next time, and that that will damn them, is largely wishful thinking on the part of true blue believers. For a start, I am not convinced that scrutiny was missing last time - maybe the manifesto was just actually rather good, and struck a chord with many people?
I concede it is unlikely the Tories will make such a f*ck-up of their campaign next time - but I live in hope.
Yep, contrary to what some people here seem to think, when your opponent has a very popular policy like rail renationalisation, it's not a winning strategy to keep talking about it. There's a reason the Tories spent so little time talking about Labour's manifesto, it wasn't an accident
Hammond was kept in a box last time and this meant none of Labour's costs or taxes etc etc were properly discussed at any daily press events etc.
Boris or Hunt or Javid will not make that mistake next time. It will be tax bombshell from dawn until dusk.
Remember Hammond's own attempt to raise taxes (NI) had just failed so it is not surprising Conservatives did not focus on it.
To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption
Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)
Beef - 5.7 Pigs - 2.6 Poultry - 2.2 Dairy - 1.9 (I think) Fish - 1.7 (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s) Insect - 1.1
Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)
There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue
For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein
Here endeth the lesson
Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
And, who would want to be a vegan?
Who wants to be in the same room as a vegan?
The vegan problem is easily solved. Eat Vegans. They are happy because cute little animals don't get eaten. We happy because we get our meat and because we no longer have to listen to these whinging, whining twerps.
As far as Jeremy Corbyn is concerned,I cannot remember a politician who has been the victim of so many lies.It reaks of fear,not fear of Mr Corbyn,but fear of you and what actions you may determine collectively in a democracy.Sadly,Pb is just an organ for the bean-crunchers union.
It's hard to imagine there are any lies out there about Corbyn that are (a) worse than the truth or (b) worse than the lies he tells about his own policies.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
Sporting index have a spread-bet market on number of times various words might be used in Hammond's speech. Most look about right to me, but I've bought 'Education' at 2.2. Seems to me that he could say it quite a few times, and the downside is very limited.
Edit: 'Pension' at 4.3 also a possible buy, but less conviction on that one.
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?
Speaking as a great fan of Justine Greening as Education Secretary where her key talent was not to royally bugger things up a la all her predecessors and especially Nicky Morgan and Michael Gove, whatever they are they're still much too short. You need more than that from a PM.
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
I thought part of the idea was that they are lighter than the rest of us?
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
I thought part of the idea was that they are lighter than the rest of us?
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
I'm looking to see what help (if any) is going to local authorities for the 2019/20 financial settlement. I'm expecting significant amounts to be made available to ameliorate rising costs in the fields of care for vulnerable adults and children.
There will also doubtless be further help in terms of business rates retention while plenty of carrot will be offered to get houses being built. It's just worth noting that in the two-tier local Government structure the County Council picks up the costs of social care and education while the District or Borough Council is the rating and housing/planning authority so the benefits of Hammond's largesse aren't evenly spread.
Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?
Personal view, I don't find her easy to relate to. How engaging, empathetic and authentic is she? Is she good on TV? I would suggest average or below on most for those, so she should be long odds.
The qualities that I think the leaders needs are: Good on media (TV etc) and authenticity.
Cameron was good on TV and the best for many years at the set pieces (Hillsborough etc). Blair was equally good or better, Brown crap, Corbyn good, May = Brown, Kinnock enough said (or in his case too much said), Thatcher was authentic (like or loath her), Wilson was a better media performer than Heath, Major, he was authentic on his soap box, when he was at his most authentic he had his greatest success.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
There are animals in the food chain who are exclusively herbivore, others carnivore and some (like us) ominvore.
Given all species on the planet exist within an integrated ecosystem it’s hard to argue one form or another is unethical (otherwise plenty of species simply wouldn’t exist and others would take over and decimate vegetation and other species) but that won’t stop people arguing it is, because strictly speaking we can choose and humans generally like to impose their ethics and choices on others.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
Sporting index have a spread-bet market on number of times various words might be used in Hammond's speech. Most look about right to me, but I've bought 'Education' at 2.2. Seems to me that he could say it quite a few times, and the downside is very limited.
Edit: 'Pension' at 4.3 also a possible buy, but less conviction on that one.
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Your friends seem sensible, I ate tonnes of eggs when we kept some Indian runners in our back garden. I don't bother too much now, though I don't not eat eggs (I'd buy organic/free range though, as the conditions are better than caged). Rick Stein's trip to Macedonia with the goat consumed there is closish to 'ideal' (It is ashame more people do not like offal)... Grass meadows, slow cooked on open fires, butchered traditionally... I believe the meat industry does themselves no favours sometimes, though I'd always try and buy British as our country has higher standards than elsewhere - particularly the USA. Eating less meat and making sure welfare standards are high of the animal products we do consume seem sensible to me. A good life on the farm and a quick death...
Have followed Nabavi in on education at a tenner/word (Buy @ 2.2). Now up to 3.1
With Angie quitting could Theresa May finish up the Empress of Europe?
One suspects (having witnessed the way she is revered by her fellow PMs of EC countries) the answer is No.
If Angela departs the scene will her German replacement inherit her clout in the EU or will they take time to establish a dominant presence. Will Macron see this as a chance to position himself and France as the one to be obeyed and respected at the EU table?
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat. They also enjoy cheese and pasta (spaghetti bolognaise is a favourite).
Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?
Personal view, I don't find her easy to relate to. How engaging, empathetic and authentic is she? Is she good on TV? I would suggest average or below on most for those, so she should be long odds.
The qualities that I think the leaders needs are: Good on media (TV etc) and authenticity.
Cameron was good on TV and the best for many years at the set pieces (Hillsborough etc). Blair was equally good or better, Brown crap, Corbyn good, May = Brown, Kinnock enough said (or in his case too much said), Thatcher was authentic (like or loath her), Wilson was a better media performer than Heath, Major, he was authentic on his soap box, when he was at his most authentic he had his greatest success.
Kinnock had a particular problem which was that he moved a lot as he spoke, and as directors favoured tight head shots, it meant his head was bouncing around the frame like it was possessed. Whether this was part of a conspiracy by the pro-Tory BBC is not known.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat.
Yes, our tom was licking the apple crumble last night >.>
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat.
A lot of cat food contains vegetables now. Whether for health reasons or because it's used as cheap filler by ruthless pet food companies ...
Reading the ingredients on cat food is eye-opening. Normally there is only 4% of the main named ingredient (eg chicken or tuna or whatever it says on the tin) which I suspect is the legal minimum.
With Angie quitting could Theresa May finish up the Empress of Europe?
One suspects (having witnessed the way she is revered by her fellow PMs of EC countries) the answer is No.
If Angela departs the scene will her German replacement inherit her clout in the EU or will they take time to establish a dominant presence. Will Macron see this as a chance to position himself and France as the one to be obeyed and respected at the EU table?
Macron might see it that way, but I doubt that will be a widely supported view.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat. They also enjoy cheese and pasta (spaghetti bolognaise is a favourite).
My cats have always preferred their greens from whatever happens to be the prime plant in the house or garden at the time.
Plus the last one (now tirmenting Schrodinger under the Bamboo) enjoyed Korma.
With Angie quitting could Theresa May finish up the Empress of Europe?
One suspects (having witnessed the way she is revered by her fellow PMs of EC countries) the answer is No.
If Angela departs the scene will her German replacement inherit her clout in the EU or will they take time to establish a dominant presence. Will Macron see this as a chance to position himself and France as the one to be obeyed and respected at the EU table?
Macron might see it that way, but I doubt that will be a widely supported view.
Macron has gome out of his way to make enemies, the Italians will just ignore him
A lot of cat food contains vegetables now. Whether for health reasons or because it's used as cheap filler by ruthless pet food companies ...
Reading the ingredients on cat food is eye-opening. Normally there is only 4% of the main named ingredient (eg chicken or tuna or whatever it says on the tin) which I suspect is the legal minimum.
Our Tabby likes to err.. supplement her diet with the local rodent population.
Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?
100/1 against next Tory leader with most firms; 125/1 with Ladbrokes for next PM, but generally also 100/1.
My wallet hopes she runs. My brain thinks she sounds more like a Labour leadership hopeful than a Tory.
Not that far, Momentum will have nothing to do with her but Greening would have more chance of winning over the LD membership and succeeding Cable than winning over the Tory membership and succeeding May
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
Another tribe of snowflakes coming down the track...
"That sausage 10m away is being violent to me because I can see it".
cf Our somewhat-loopy Chief Constable seems to regard things that you do not like but overhear by earwigging as being some sort of hate crime.
On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.
Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.
Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
I do consider both of those things a possibility, though I'm less inclined to buy the former...
I think the idea that more there'll be more scrutiny on Labour's manifesto next time, and that that will damn them, is largely wishful thinking on the part of true blue believers. For a start, I am not convinced that scrutiny was missing last time - maybe the manifesto was just actually rather good, and struck a chord with many people?
I concede it is unlikely the Tories will make such a f*ck-up of their campaign next time - but I live in hope.
Was there really scrutiny of the choices, trade-offs, consequences and real costs (ignoring the “fully costed” bullshit)? I’d argue no.
The you have to aks yourself why not - why did the overwhelmingly right-wing press give Labour a 'free pass'?
Truth is, there was not much for critics to get their teeth into. It was a clever manifesto* and there's no reason to believe the next one will be any different.
(*Especially so, given the GE came out of the blue, so LAbour had little time to prepare.)
A lot of cat food contains vegetables now. Whether for health reasons or because it's used as cheap filler by ruthless pet food companies ...
Reading the ingredients on cat food is eye-opening. Normally there is only 4% of the main named ingredient (eg chicken or tuna or whatever it says on the tin) which I suspect is the legal minimum.
Our Tabby likes to err.. supplement her diet with the local rodent population.
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
Merkel to give up as CDU party leader but will run for Chancellor
Merkel hopes to remain Chancellor until 2021 though, if a loyalist succeeds her as CDU leader that is probable, if an opponent replaces her less likely.
Her decision is the equivalent of May standing down as Tory leader but remaining PM until the next general election
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
I live in a household with two other vegans. For both of them it’s about the welfare of the animals more than anything else. Both will eat the small supply of eggs I get from someone who keeps hens in his back yard. My wife would probably entertain eating meat at some point if she was actually sure that the quality of life of the animals was better.
She’s not overtly fussy about cooking meaty things for me, but the line is chicken. Even free range, as she says it, are kept in the most appalling conditions that it makes her feel sick.
Of course the endless showing of videos of abuses in slaughterhouses on social media don’t help.
If they eat eggs they are not vegan surely? And 'free range chickens are kept in the most appalling conditions' seems odd to me.
They way I justify my (occasional) meat consumption is firstly aim to buy meat which comes with some assurance that the animal has been well looked after and b) I think to myself these animals would exist at all if we were all veggies
Is it better for an animal to have lived a good life then be slaughtered humanely or to never have lived at all?
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Your friends seem sensible, I ate tonnes of eggs when we kept some Indian runners in our back garden. I don't bother too much now, though I don't not eat eggs (I'd buy organic/free range though, as the conditions are better than caged). Rick Stein's trip to Macedonia with the goat consumed there is closish to 'ideal' (It is ashame more people do not like offal)... Grass meadows, slow cooked on open fires, butchered traditionally... I believe the meat industry does themselves no favours sometimes, though I'd always try and buy British as our country has higher standards than elsewhere - particularly the USA. Eating less meat and making sure welfare standards are high of the animal products we do consume seem sensible to me. A good life on the farm and a quick death...
Have followed Nabavi in on education at a tenner/word (Buy @ 2.2). Now up to 3.1
It is an odd conundrum. The meat industry was encouraged to produce the largest quantity of meat for the lowest price for many years. This resulted in lower standards for the animals but more meat for more people at a lower price. The industry was responding to the demands of the time. You probably have to look at this in the context of post war diet and the feel good of the 60s and 70s, Yuppie 80s etc.
I remember attending a debate about the use of hormones to encourage growth in beef cattle in the early 1970s. At that time the arguments were quantity and cost / vs hormones in the food chain. The debate would be very different today, if we even bothered to have it as it is such a no brainer (that you don't pump the food chain with chemicals).
I don't eat Chicken anymore as the chances are that the production methods are worse than for other animals. I have never eaten Veal, it just seems wrong. I am down to Meat 3 or 4 times a month, fish / prawns 3 or 4 times a week and too much dairy. As you eat less meat I think you do become more particular about the source of the meat.
These eating habits are the ones that I have adapted to over the last 3 years. I used to eat meat 5, 6 or 7 days a week. It is a change that is based on eating what makes me feel good and will I hope be a healthy diet. Animal welfare and environmental issues are there, but secondary.
I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
Indeed. You can't feed them on tofu can you, as I once remarked to a pair of my wife's vegetarian friends as one of our cats trotted past the french doors with a bird in its mouth - we've not seen the veggies since (or the bird).
There have been attempts to produce vegetarian cat food. They have not been successful.
You need to produce vegetarian cats FIRST
As it happens, cats do like small amounts of vegetables, which aid digestion, but they would never abandon eating meat. They also enjoy cheese and pasta (spaghetti bolognaise is a favourite).
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
Surprised nobody other than HYUFD is interested in Justine Greening hinting at a leadership bid. What odds can be got on her?
100/1 against next Tory leader with most firms; 125/1 with Ladbrokes for next PM, but generally also 100/1.
My wallet hopes she runs. My brain thinks she sounds more like a Labour leadership hopeful than a Tory.
Not that far, Momentum will have nothing to do with her but Greening would have more chance of winning over the LD membership and succeeding Cable than winning over the Tory membership and succeeding May
Quite. I don't think she's angling for the Lib Dem leadership, but I do wonder whether she's envisaging a post-Brexit split in the Conservatives.
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
Another tribe of snowflakes coming down the track...
"That sausage 10m away is being violent to me because I can see it".
cf Our somewhat-loopy Chief Constable seems to regard things that you do not like but overhear by earwigging as being some sort of hate crime.
Do you need a safe space where those nasty vegans can't get to you?
Merkel to give up as CDU party leader but will run for Chancellor
Merkel hopes to remain Chancellor until 2021 though, if a loyalist succeeds her as CDU leader that is probable, if an opponent replaces her less likely.
Her decision is the equivalent of May standing down as Tory leader but remaining PM until the next general election
is it likely she stays to 2021 ?
either her coalition breaks up and shes out, or it stays in place but she needs to go end 2019 to give a successor some time to build a platform
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.
Me too. I can see it becoming a big political issue in 15-20 years.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
Another tribe of snowflakes coming down the track...
"That sausage 10m away is being violent to me because I can see it".
cf Our somewhat-loopy Chief Constable seems to regard things that you do not like but overhear by earwigging as being some sort of hate crime.
Do you need a safe space where those nasty vegans can't get to you?
No. But we know the game now. The tyranny of the vociferous minority. It comes right though, because they end up going too far and then it blows back like a gigantic hurricane.
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Your friends seem sensible, I ate tonnes of eggs when we kept some Indian runners in our back garden. I don't bother too much now, though I don't not eat eggs (I'd buy organic/free range though, as the conditions are better than caged). Rick Stein's trip to Macedonia with the goat consumed there is closish to 'ideal' (It is ashame more people do not like offal)... Grass meadows, slow cooked on open fires, butchered traditionally... I believe the meat industry does themselves no favours sometimes, though I'd always try and buy British as our country has higher standards than elsewhere - particularly the USA. Eating less meat and making sure welfare standards are high of the animal products we do consume seem sensible to me. A good life on the farm and a quick death...
Have followed Nabavi in on education at a tenner/word (Buy @ 2.2). Now up to 3.1
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Your friends seem sensible, I ate tonnes of eggs when we kept some Indian runners in our back garden. I don't bother too much now, though I don't not eat eggs (I'd buy organic/free range though, as the conditions are better than caged). Rick Stein's trip to Macedonia with the goat consumed there is closish to 'ideal' (It is ashame
Have followed Nabavi in on education at a tenner/word (Buy @ 2.2). Now up to 3.1
It is an odd conundrum. The meat industry was encouraged to produce the largest quantity of meat for the lowest price for many years. This resulted in lower standards for the animals but more meat for more people at a lower price. The industry was responding to the demands of the time. You probably have to look at this in the context of post war diet and the feel good of the 60s and 70s, Yuppie 80s etc.
I remember attending a debate about the use of hormones to encourage growth in beef cattle in the early 1970s. At that time the arguments were quantity and cost / vs hormones in the food chain. The debate would be very different today, if we even bothered to have it as it is such a no brainer (that you don't pump the food chain with chemicals).
I don't eat Chicken anymore as the chances are that the production methods are worse than for other animals. I have never eaten Veal, it just seems wrong. I am down to Meat 3 or 4 times a month, fish / prawns 3 or 4 times a week and too much dairy. As you eat less meat I think you do become more particular about the source of the meat.
These eating habits are the ones that I have adapted to over the last 3 years. I used to eat meat 5, 6 or 7 days a week. It is a change that is based on eating what makes me feel good and will I hope be a healthy diet. Animal welfare and environmental issues are there, but secondary.
In my case, it's red meat, poultry, fish each about twice a week. The red meat is usually in a stew or pasta dish.
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
I live in a household with two other vegans. For both of them it’s about the welfare of the animals more than anything else. Both will eat the small supply of eggs I get from someone who keeps hens in his back yard. My wife would probably entertain eating meat at some point if she was actually sure that the quality of life of the animals was better.
She’s not overtly fussy about cooking meaty things for me, but the line is chicken. Even free range, as she says it, are kept in the most appalling conditions that it makes her feel sick.
Of course the endless showing of videos of abuses in slaughterhouses on social media don’t help.
If they eat eggs they are not vegan surely? And 'free range chickens are kept in the most appalling conditions' seems odd to me.
They way I justify my (occasional) meat consumption is firstly aim to buy meat which comes with some assurance that the animal has been well looked after and b) I think to myself these animals would exist at all if we were all veggies
Is it better for an animal to have lived a good life then be slaughtered humanely or to never have lived at all?
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
Less damage to the wheel alignment, I suppose.
A chihuahua isn't going to knock it much out of whack.....
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
They dont eat animal products because of the way animals are treated not because they think it is some kind of moral wrong. As far as they are concerned those eggs and chickens labelled as free range still fall short of what they consider to be humane standards. Someone keeping hens that run freely in their back yard does fit their criteria.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Your friends seem sensible, I ate tonnes of eggs when we kept some Indian runners in our back garden. I don't bother too much now, though I don't not eat eggs (I'd buy organic/free range though, as the conditions are better than caged). Rick Stein's trip to Macedonia with the goat consumed there is closish to 'ideal' (It is ashame more people do not like offal)... Grass meadows, slow cooked on open fires, butchered traditionally... I believe the meat industry does themselves no favours sometimes, though I'd always try and buy British as our country has higher standards than elsewhere - particularly the USA. Eating less meat and making sure welfare standards are high of the animal products we do consume seem sensible to me. A good life on the farm and a quick death...
Have followed Nabavi in on education at a tenner/word (Buy @ 2.2). Now up to 3.1
It is an odd conundrum. The meat industry was encouraged to produce the largest quantity of meat for the lowest price for many years. This resulted in lower standards for the animals but more meat for more people at a lower price. The industry was responding to the demands of the time. You probably have to look at this in the context of post war diet and the feel good of the 60s and 70s, Yuppie 80s etc.
I remember attending a debate about the use of hormones to encourage growth in beef cattle in the early 1970s. At that time the arguments were quantity and cost / vs hormones in the food chain. The debate would be very different today, if we even bothered to have it as it is such a no brainer (that you don't pump the food chain with chemicals).
I don't eat Chicken anymore as the chances are that the production methods are worse than for other animals. I have never eaten Veal, it just seems wrong. I am down to Meat 3 or 4 times a month, fish / prawns 3 or 4 times a week and too much dairy. As you eat less meat I think you do become more particular about the source of the meat.
These eating habits are the ones that I have adapted to over the last 3 years. I used to eat meat 5, 6 or 7 days a week. It is a change that is based on eating what makes me feel good and will I hope be a healthy diet. Animal welfare and environmental issues are there, but secondary.
Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.
The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.
"Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."
"I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
It’s sometimes surprising that cats survived the Middle Ages in Europe. If they hadn’t been useful mousers I don’t they would have!
Why do you say that? I'm more of a dog than a cat person but cat's are very self-sufficient and I would have thought they'd have survived the middle ages fine without human help.
Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.
I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
Some people do. At university 25 years ago I knew a bloke who was an animal rights activist who said he's put one animal's life ahead of any number of human lives.
Being cynical, he obviously meant other peoples' lives, not his own.
On average, people do value dogs' lives more highly that criminals' lives:
I think if they ran that poll again the criminal would be at the bottom. That's assuming a dead cat bounce.
the reassuring thing is that the public would rather run over a cat than a dog
Less damage to the wheel alignment, I suppose.
A chihuahua isn't going to knock it much out of whack.....
Mr. rkrkrk, unlikely. Greening may be many things, but I doubt a Marxist is one of them.
The following quotes could easily have been said by Liz Kendall or Yvette Cooper. I don't think this stuff is what excites the Tory party faithful.
"Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."
"I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
That 'is' the problem with centrism. Both the tory left and the labour right could very well be in the same party. The issues over public spending and taxation are only a few matter of degrees between them, and they're all round the same point on social issues.
Comments
https://twitter.com/TheWayneFarrell/status/1056811488218939393
The only meats I eat are lamb, chicken, and fish.
Am as a good Muslim boy remember.
They have pies with just pasta in them.
That’s an evil up there with pineapple on pizza.
Ref Mr Corbyn, something doesn't become a lie merely because it's inconvenient for him.
That said, given Trump, Brexit, Brazil, and the rise in support for the populist right and left in many other countries, people should indeed be fearful of the power of the vote used without sufficient care and attention.
It's not hard.
It's like saying you cant be Catholic if you use a condom.
And repeat after me "veganism is a dietary choice, not a movement".
Sporting index have a spread-bet market on number of times various words might be used in Hammond's speech. Most look about right to me, but I've bought 'Education' at 2.2. Seems to me that he could say it quite a few times, and the downside is very limited.
Edit: 'Pension' at 4.3 also a possible buy, but less conviction on that one.
*My Scottish boss ate one, spent the next fortnight complaining about heartburn and that his arse looked like the flag of Japan.
Once vegetarians and vegans exceed 25% of the electorate they will start to make their weight felt.
I am a proper carnivore but I am listening to the arguments from my daughter and friends with increasing respect and contemplation.
I will again get my coat...
I'm looking to see what help (if any) is going to local authorities for the 2019/20 financial settlement. I'm expecting significant amounts to be made available to ameliorate rising costs in the fields of care for vulnerable adults and children.
There will also doubtless be further help in terms of business rates retention while plenty of carrot will be offered to get houses being built. It's just worth noting that in the two-tier local Government structure the County Council picks up the costs of social care and education while the District or Borough Council is the rating and housing/planning authority so the benefits of Hammond's largesse aren't evenly spread.
The qualities that I think the leaders needs are:
Good on media (TV etc) and authenticity.
Cameron was good on TV and the best for many years at the set pieces (Hillsborough etc). Blair was equally good or better, Brown crap, Corbyn good, May = Brown, Kinnock enough said (or in his case too much said), Thatcher was authentic (like or loath her), Wilson was a better media performer than Heath, Major, he was authentic on his soap box, when he was at his most authentic he had his greatest success.
Given all species on the planet exist within an integrated ecosystem it’s hard to argue one form or another is unethical (otherwise plenty of species simply wouldn’t exist and others would take over and decimate vegetation and other species) but that won’t stop people arguing it is, because strictly speaking we can choose and humans generally like to impose their ethics and choices on others.
Their Scotch Eggs are second to none.
My brain thinks she sounds more like a Labour leadership hopeful than a Tory.
Rick Stein's trip to Macedonia with the goat consumed there is closish to 'ideal' (It is ashame more people do not like offal)... Grass meadows, slow cooked on open fires, butchered traditionally...
I believe the meat industry does themselves no favours sometimes, though I'd always try and buy British as our country has higher standards than elsewhere - particularly the USA. Eating less meat and making sure welfare standards are high of the animal products we do consume seem sensible to me. A good life on the farm and a quick death...
Have followed Nabavi in on education at a tenner/word (Buy @ 2.2). Now up to 3.1
If Angela departs the scene will her German replacement inherit her clout in the EU or will they take time to establish a dominant presence. Will Macron see this as a chance to position himself and France as the one to be obeyed and respected at the EU table?
Reading the ingredients on cat food is eye-opening. Normally there is only 4% of the main named ingredient (eg chicken or tuna or whatever it says on the tin) which I suspect is the legal minimum.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1056874169219145728
https://twitter.com/suzhou60/status/1056875138141052934
Plus the last one (now tirmenting Schrodinger under the Bamboo) enjoyed Korma.
"That sausage 10m away is being violent to me because I can see it".
cf Our somewhat-loopy Chief Constable seems to regard things that you do not like but overhear by earwigging as being some sort of hate crime.
Wonder if May is looking at this and thinking... "maybe that's a way out".
Truth is, there was not much for critics to get their teeth into. It was a clever manifesto* and there's no reason to believe the next one will be any different.
(*Especially so, given the GE came out of the blue, so LAbour had little time to prepare.)
Her decision is the equivalent of May standing down as Tory leader but remaining PM until the next general election
I remember attending a debate about the use of hormones to encourage growth in beef cattle in the early 1970s. At that time the arguments were quantity and cost / vs hormones in the food chain. The debate would be very different today, if we even bothered to have it as it is such a no brainer (that you don't pump the food chain with chemicals).
I don't eat Chicken anymore as the chances are that the production methods are worse than for other animals. I have never eaten Veal, it just seems wrong. I am down to Meat 3 or 4 times a month, fish / prawns 3 or 4 times a week and too much dairy. As you eat less meat I think you do become more particular about the source of the meat.
These eating habits are the ones that I have adapted to over the last 3 years. I used to eat meat 5, 6 or 7 days a week. It is a change that is based on eating what makes me feel good and will I hope be a healthy diet. Animal welfare and environmental issues are there, but secondary.
either her coalition breaks up and shes out, or it stays in place but she needs to go end 2019 to give a successor some time to build a platform
Leavers remind me of Harry Enfield’s “Angry” Frank Doberman, working themselves up into a self-righteous froth over nowt.
Oi, Vegans, Noooo!
"Things need to change, don't they, and I think people need to have some hope for the future, that Britain can be a country that runs differently and more fairly than it does at the moment."
"I think we need the same level of ambition on that that governments have had in the past on the welfare state and setting up the NHS. We need guarantees on opportunity in this country in the same way that we give guarantees on health and guarantees on dignity if people fall out of work."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/29/michael-avenatti-2020-election-campaign-944994
Which, if nothing else, ought to provide some entertainment value.