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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Mr. Doethur, for the fight ahead, should our loins be girded, or sautéd?

    I'll tell you when we've officially mustard.

    (Sorry @malcolmg!)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”

    The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.
    I believe that meat also takes up a larger proportion of the diet as you go to higher latitudes.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kle4 said:

    Yes, but what about 2016? Polls will never scare corbynites again, and the rest are converted or have given up.

    Polls shouldn't be ignored but to be honest I'm quite confident, a majority wouldn't be easy but if not I would expect a win like the Tories had to be more likely than not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”

    The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.
    I'm told as an option it's locust compared to traditional dishes...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up

    As I have said before, the next election hangs on which of the larger parties loses most support to the minor parties. Labour is skewered between the Greens and LibDems just as the Tories are between LibDem and UKIP.
    UKIP are the biggest threat to the Tories, the Greens the biggest threat to Labour yes and the LDs will target Remainers from both
    Right now there are rather more worried remainers than main party supporters waiting to drop off to the extremes.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    IanB2 said:

    Falling fast, like Boris.

    I must say the the pre-Budget build-up and speculation is a little dull this year?

    https://twitter.com/alstewitn/status/1056823694360805382
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
    I'd back that up too. I love meat and even I eat less of it.

    Probably the influence of Lisa Simpson on the young.
    Same here, started eating less meat a few years ago. More for health than anything but going vegetarian is a definite no I do love my kebabs and burgers and other wonderful things.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.

    I doubt meat eating will ever be banned. But I could easily imagine that if the externalities were properly costed and taxed, that meat eating would become much more expensive and thus less common.
    The same is true of air travel.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Equating eating meat with shooting heroin just makes you sound an utter asshat.
    It's a difficult concept Jessop but it's called a metaphor.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    ydoethur said:


    There we differ. I can easily see them getting 75% plus between them. For me, the thing to watch will be turnout as disillusioned voters stay at home. I could see that dipping below 65%.

    The next election could easily be won by the party that motivates its supporters best. This is where Corbyn's Marmite qualities remain a priceless asset to the Tories. He's not currently enthusing his base but he sure as hell enthuses theirs.

    That's not quite right. He continues to enthuse his base - which is maybe 25% of the electorate. At my non-political poker evening in deepest Surrey last night, we had a rare excursion into politics - half the table (in the 30-60 age range) were huge Corbyn enthusiasts: "he's the best thing that's happened to British politics in my lifetime", "such a refreshing change", etc. (The other half looked distinctly sceptical.) The local membership remain big fans too. What he doesn't do at the moment is make the non-base feel he's saying anything relevant to them - ambiguous on Brexit, preoccupied with things like the IHLR examples.

    That needs to change. But I don't think May has anything like the depth of support. What she has is the opposite - little passionate support among the membership, but broad sympathy in the wider public for her impossible position and a degree of respect (which I share) for gamely plugging on. Floating voters will IMO be quite annoyed if the Tories do dump her after a halfway respectable Brexit deal.
    Haslemere is not turning red.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Scott_P said:
    And the Prime Minister in question was gone within eighteen.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Doethur, that's a splendid pun.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Mr. Doethur, that's a splendid pun.

    I must admit I felt a certain relish for it.

    I'll get my coat as a shed roof is in need of repair.

    Have a good morning.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    Good header. I was wondering this morning why Labour are so keen to force an early election when their polling is so poor for a mid-term.
  • Am busy today so when Phil Hammond stands up to deliver his budget just imagine me posting

    ‘Stop, Hammond time’
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Good header. I was wondering this morning why Labour are so keen to force an early election when their polling is so poor for a mid-term.

    They think they've turned upside down the old 'rule' about opposition polling mid-term and at election time
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that much of the decline of the Labour voteshare seem to have gone to the LDs rather than just the Tories and while the Tories now lead in most polls they are also down on GE17 and UKIP are up

    As I have said before, the next election hangs on which of the larger parties loses most support to the minor parties. Labour is skewered between the Greens and LibDems just as the Tories are between LibDem and UKIP.
    UKIP are the biggest threat to the Tories, the Greens the biggest threat to Labour yes and the LDs will target Remainers from both
    Right now there are rather more worried remainers than main party supporters waiting to drop off to the extremes.
    Are you suggesting that a Party of re-join would see its supporters "dropping off to the extremes"? Extreme centrism is an interesting concept.....

    Surely the Remainers are the ones bemoaning that the shrinking of the centre ground has left them homeless?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Mr. Ace, either that or kids are more susceptible to ideology. It was only a couple of weeks ago the BBC were pushing a report's line that eating less meat would help save the planet.

    At least they are not susceptible the ideology of never using blockquotes.

    The BBC's "line" is basically true. The industry of rearing animals to be killed for human food consumes huge amounts of water and energy to produce a vast amount of C02 and a relatively small amount of protein.
    But a nice steak now and again , with a bottle of red is very good. They could just ration it. Also how could you live without an odd burger here and there.
    What about some haggis and whisky?
    Wonderful but does need tatties and neeps to go with it.
    Definitely vote for that. Very partial to the traditional Burns Night supper dish.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Good header. I was wondering this morning why Labour are so keen to force an early election when their polling is so poor for a mid-term.

    Because last time there were 20 points behind and came to within a few points of winning. The calculation is now, whatever their percentage, add 20%.... it will be a landslide...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Equating eating meat with shooting heroin just makes you sound an utter asshat.
    It's a difficult concept Jessop but it's called a metaphor.
    A very stupid metaphor Which undermines your point in it's ridiculousness, yes. Good job.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Am busy today so when Phil Hammond stands up to deliver his budget just imagine me posting

    ‘Stop, Hammond time’

    May plays Hammond’s organ.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Equating eating meat with shooting heroin just makes you sound an utter asshat.
    It's a difficult concept Jessop but it's called a metaphor.
    A very stupid metaphor Which undermines your point in it's ridiculousness, yes. Good job.
    Ah, the old "I don't like the point your analogy makes, but instead of try to deal with it I'll just pretend that you're saying the two things are morally equivalent" tactic. It's fallen a little out of favour in the last couple of years, but you can't beat a classic.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    notme said:

    Good header. I was wondering this morning why Labour are so keen to force an early election when their polling is so poor for a mid-term.

    Because last time there were 20 points behind and came to within a few points of winning. The calculation is now, whatever their percentage, add 20%.... it will be a landslide...
    :lol: Bound to happen.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Jonathan, are you trying to put people off pork sausage?
  • AndyJS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    It's almost as if some people care more about animals than they do about other people. I'm sure that's an exaggeration, but you get that impression sometimes.
    At least with the Tories you know where they stand in caring about people and animals.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    rkrkrk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
    I live in a household with two other vegans. For both of them it’s about the welfare of the animals more than anything else. Both will eat the small supply of eggs I get from someone who keeps hens in his back yard. My wife would probably entertain eating meat at some point if she was actually sure that the quality of life of the animals was better.

    She’s not overtly fussy about cooking meaty things for me, but the line is chicken. Even free range, as she says it, are kept in the most appalling conditions that it makes her feel sick.

    Of course the endless showing of videos of abuses in slaughterhouses on social media don’t help.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,301
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”

    The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.
    I'm told as an option it's locust compared to traditional dishes...
    Good!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Good header. I was wondering this morning why Labour are so keen to force an early election when their polling is so poor for a mid-term.

    Well I can't see much mileage in an opposition saying 'we're not really ready yet, so you just carry on'.

    But there is also the fact that the two men at the top of the Labour Party obviously have a plan that they want to carry out, and frankly aren't really of the age that they can afford to wait. They'll be only too aware of how much has changed in the Labour Party in the last couple of years, and that it can carry on changing. A few more years and Labour could become the pro-rejoin party and pull in a lot of people whose ideas are a long way from those of Corbyn and MacDonald. Also, while the Tories' reputation for economic competence isn't particularly well deserved, it usually does get them a fair chunk of grudging support at most elections. Brexit will lose them that bonus for a few years. You can hardly blame the left for wanting to grab their chance while it is open.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kle4 said:



    A very stupid metaphor Which undermines your point in it's ridiculousness, yes. Good job.

    I see from your apostrophe you are a leaver, sir.

    It wasn't a metaphor as a metaphor is an implicit simile and is literally false by definition.

    At no point did I equate eating meat with doing heroin. I was illustrating the danger of using unexamined gratification as a criteria for choosing to do something.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Jonathan said:

    Am busy today so when Phil Hammond stands up to deliver his budget just imagine me posting

    ‘Stop, Hammond time’

    May plays Hammond’s organ.
    Do you mind! I've only just had breakfast!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited October 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:



    A very stupid metaphor Which undermines your point in it's ridiculousness, yes. Good job.

    I see from your apostrophe you are a leaver, sir.

    It wasn't a metaphor as a metaphor is an implicit simile and is literally false by definition.

    At no point did I equate eating meat with doing heroin. I was illustrating the danger of using unexamined gratification as a criteria for choosing to do something.

    I see from your apostrophe you are a leaver, sir.

    Just brilliant! :lol:

    (PS - It was a stupid metaphor though!)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Equating eating meat with shooting heroin just makes you sound an utter asshat.
    It's a difficult concept Jessop but it's called a metaphor.
    I know very well, thanks. I wonder what I could put 'ad directors' in the same sentence as ?

    BTW, how'd your friend Assad getting on being all lovely and cute?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.

    Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Am busy today so when Phil Hammond stands up to deliver his budget just imagine me posting

    ‘Stop, Hammond time’

    We'll all be asleep within about 10 mins anyway.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    Over the last year, the Tory EMA vote share is basically unchanged at about 40%. But Labour share has come down from 42% to 37.5%. LibDem are up 2%, Green and UKIP each up 1%. So that is where the Labour share has gone.

    As OGH says, correlation is not causation, so we can only guess at the cause. It is too easy to project our own beliefs (prejudices) onto our explanations.

    For what it's worth, I don't think Salisbury or antisemitism has anything to do with it except in providing justification in Tory voters' minds for sticking with their party in spite of everything. Party loyalty is strong, but you have to self-justify it. Look at Trump's supporters.

    I suspect the shift is do with Corbyn's approach to Brexit and also increased local political activity by LibDems and Greens in some places as PPCs are chosen.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    This must be the free speech on campus I hear so much about

    https://twitter.com/castriotar/status/1055836519318122496?s=19
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    Pretty standard sci fi trope.
    Was it not Asimov who had the story where they had to explain to a Senate that the flavours they used were actually based on the flavours of various animals and then had to explain in the context of the new foodstuff that was sweeping all before it the word "cannibalism"?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.

    Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.

    Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Morning all :)

    Well, yes, I'm sure Labour would prefer to be 15 points ahead but this is an unusual and indeed unique situation and "the rules" may not apply.

    It's all gone very quiet on A50 since the EU summit which means either the serious negotiating is going on (and about time) or everyone has given up on trying to reach a deal and all are preparing for 29/3/19.

    For most people in work (and that seems to be most people), the economy is chugging along - things may be getting better slowly but they aren't getting worse. Corbyn and McDonnell's message does and will have traction next time - the current economic model isn't working for millions of people but that's not to say the Labour alternative would.

    So we remain very much in glacis pending the outcome of A50 and the two options of either a fudged deal which will keep us more or less in the EU until 2020 if not later or leaving without a deal and all that might flow from that.

    I suspect the fudged deal will be more politically damaging for the Conservatives as it will keep the whole issue dragging on for months though I wholeheartedly agree their chances of hanging on to power at the next GE are immeasurably improved with Corbyn leading Labour. Whether they are further improved with May as PM remains to be seen.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    rkrkrk said:

    tlg86 said:

    I actually think there is a good case for moderating your meat consumption on environmental and health grounds. However, the right to eat meat is one thing I think I might actually be prepared to fight for.

    I doubt meat eating will ever be banned. But I could easily imagine that if the externalities were properly costed and taxed, that meat eating would become much more expensive and thus less common.
    As it used to be, in other words.

    Not the taxing but it being seen as more of a treat rather than an every day food. We certainly did not eat much meat when I was a child though when we did the more unfashionable cuts were a greater proportion (liver, offal, tongue, oxtail etc). I eat much less now and more fish but mainly for health reasons.

    I dislike the “born again” quality of some vegetarians and vegans, though. Food is a pleasure not yet another stick for the self-righteous and sanctimonious to beat up others with.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    notme said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
    I live in a household with two other vegans. For both of them it’s about the welfare of the animals more than anything else. Both will eat the small supply of eggs I get from someone who keeps hens in his back yard. My wife would probably entertain eating meat at some point if she was actually sure that the quality of life of the animals was better.

    She’s not overtly fussy about cooking meaty things for me, but the line is chicken. Even free range, as she says it, are kept in the most appalling conditions that it makes her feel sick.

    Of course the endless showing of videos of abuses in slaughterhouses on social media don’t help.

    If they eat eggs they are not vegan surely? And 'free range chickens are kept in the most appalling conditions' seems odd to me.

    They way I justify my (occasional) meat consumption is firstly aim to buy meat which comes with some assurance that the animal has been well looked after and b) I think to myself these animals would exist at all if we were all veggies

    Is it better for an animal to have lived a good life then be slaughtered humanely or to never have lived at all?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
    I'd back that up too. I love meat and even I eat less of it.

    Probably the influence of Lisa Simpson on the young.
    Same here, started eating less meat a few years ago. More for health than anything but going vegetarian is a definite no I do love my kebabs and burgers and other wonderful things.
    Me too but not out of any particular choice -- just seem to be eating more fish; meat once a week now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”

    The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.
    My dad had fried locust whilst in north Africa in the 50s so it is hardly new. He didn't particularly commend it.
  • Alistair said:

    This must be the free speech on campus I hear so much about

    https://twitter.com/castriotar/status/1055836519318122496?s=19

    Looks like the term safe space may come to have a somewhat different meaning in Brazil. On the bright side, it will annoy them pesky liberals.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited October 2018

    On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.

    Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.

    Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
    I do consider both of those things a possibility, though I'm less inclined to buy the former...

    I think the idea that more there'll be more scrutiny on Labour's manifesto next time, and that that will damn them, is largely wishful thinking on the part of true blue believers. For a start, I am not convinced that scrutiny was missing last time - maybe the manifesto was just actually rather good, and struck a chord with many people?

    I concede it is unlikely the Tories will make such a f*ck-up of their campaign next time - but I live in hope. :wink:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    The fox hunting was a huge mistake but it goes beyond that. I can see a world where animal welfare and environmental concerns makes vegetarianism the norm coming down the track quite quickly.
    There is a very strong correlation between per capita gdp and % of animal based protein in the diet. You are talking about a sub group of the first world not the “world”

    The novel protein source serious people are thinking about is insect. Cheap to raise and a phenomenal food conversion ratio.
    My dad had fried locust whilst in north Africa in the 50s so it is hardly new. He didn't particularly commend it.
    I’ve had fried grasshopper. The legs stick in ones teeth.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    Just had a newsflash; Angela Merkel has told the CDU she will not run for re-election as Chairwoman.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Roger said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, games players, can I recommend Return of The Obra Dinn. It genuinely is like no game you have ever played.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILolesm8kFY

    I like the sound track and the animation reminds me of the brilliant 'Old Man And the Sea by Petrov.

    https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=old+man+and+the+sea+animation#id=5&vid=4d52ae42bdc3adcda9f81913096f118c&action=view
    I second the recommendation. I was playing this game pretty obsessively every evening until I 100%ed it
  • Merkel to give up as CDU party leader but will run for Chancellor
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    Barrel scraping par excellence, surely!
  • Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Holy Cow Merkel out before May...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752

    Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
    The initial news from Germany suggested the former but other reports are saying she definitely won’t run again. I think it’s not totally clear yet.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Buzzword bingo market on Ladbrokes. Only things that tempt me are:
    Brexit, 1.05
    Austerity, 1.25
    Hard working families, 6

    But none are dead certs. Well, maybe Brexit, but he might be annoying and just say "As we leave the EU" and variants thereof. Still highly likely, though.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Scott_P said:
    Even as a Brexiteer that is quite funny.
  • Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
    Bloomberg saying she is stepping down as party leader but not Chancellor.

    Discussing a lame duck Chancellor. Also saying Germany will come down hard on Italy and Macron will not see his dream for Europe materialise
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.

    Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.

    Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
    I do consider both of those things a possibility, though I'm less inclined to buy the former...

    I think the idea that more there'll be more scrutiny on Labour's manifesto next time, and that that will damn them, is largely wishful thinking on the part of true blue believers. For a start, I am not convinced that scrutiny was missing last time - maybe the manifesto was just actually rather good, and struck a chord with many people?

    I concede it is unlikely the Tories will make such a f*ck-up of their campaign next time - but I live in hope. :wink:
    Yep, contrary to what some people here seem to think, when your opponent has a very popular policy like rail renationalisation, it's not a winning strategy to keep talking about it. There's a reason the Tories spent so little time talking about Labour's manifesto, it wasn't an accident
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Brexit 50p piece is an inventive way to encourage a societal move to non-cash payments.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.

    Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.

    Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
    I do consider both of those things a possibility, though I'm less inclined to buy the former...

    I think the idea that more there'll be more scrutiny on Labour's manifesto next time, and that that will damn them, is largely wishful thinking on the part of true blue believers. For a start, I am not convinced that scrutiny was missing last time - maybe the manifesto was just actually rather good, and struck a chord with many people?

    I concede it is unlikely the Tories will make such a f*ck-up of their campaign next time - but I live in hope. :wink:
    Yep, contrary to what some people here seem to think, when your opponent has a very popular policy like rail renationalisation, it's not a winning strategy to keep talking about it. There's a reason the Tories spent so little time talking about Labour's manifesto, it wasn't an accident
    Hammond was kept in a box last time and this meant none of Labour's costs or taxes etc etc were properly discussed at any daily press events etc.

    Boris or Hunt or Javid will not make that mistake next time. It will be tax bombshell from dawn until dusk.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    Some killjoy will pop along soon and say that it is REALLY brown sausages like that as give you cancer....
  • Merkel to give up as CDU party leader but will run for Chancellor
    Surely just staying on as Chancellor whilst a new CDU leader is chosen.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    notme said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Animal welfare is a big issue and there are a surprising (to me) number of vegetarians and vegans.

    I see this with my younger students. There is a huge generational schism forming on animal welfare issues and the tories, as usual and as a result of their pathological attraction to cruelty, find themselves on the wrong side of it.
    In my millennial social group I would say the majority are either vegetarian or at least trying to eat less meat. This is a recent phenomenon in the past 5 years. We were all telling jokes about stupid vegetarians eating rabbit food not so long ago. Its also driven in part by what is seen as healthy, not just wanting to help the environment.
    I live in a household with two other vegans. For both of them it’s about the welfare of the animals more than anything else. Both will eat the small supply of eggs I get from someone who keeps hens in his back yard. My wife would probably entertain eating meat at some point if she was actually sure that the quality of life of the animals was better.

    She’s not overtly fussy about cooking meaty things for me, but the line is chicken. Even free range, as she says it, are kept in the most appalling conditions that it makes her feel sick.

    Of course the endless showing of videos of abuses in slaughterhouses on social media don’t help.

    If they eat eggs they are not vegan surely?

    (Snip)
    Call the Vegan Police!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLpCZ8g5uK8
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
    The initial news from Germany suggested the former but other reports are saying she definitely won’t run again. I think it’s not totally clear yet.
    According to the BBC she would not run again as Chairperson of the CDU but she would remain as Chancellor of Germany. Presumably the thinking is that this gets her replacement in place and known after a very long time of domination but I can't help feeling she will not survive too long as Chancellor once she has given up control of the party.
  • The Brexit 50p piece is an inventive way to encourage a societal move to non-cash payments.

    Let Remainers donate all their 50p coins to Leavers - a way to redistribute wealth from the elite to the deserving poor.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The Brexit 50p piece is an inventive way to encourage a societal move to non-cash payments.

    Let Remainers donate all their 50p coins to Leavers - a way to redistribute wealth from the elite to the deserving poor.
    I expect the more likely idea will be to get them donated to a fresh referendum campaign. Easy marketing for Remainers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    As an aside, variant 50 pence coins are pretty common. There are quite a lot of £2 like that too.

    (Still not a fan of the new £1. Stupid coin).
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    edited October 2018
    DavidL said:

    Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
    The initial news from Germany suggested the former but other reports are saying she definitely won’t run again. I think it’s not totally clear yet.
    According to the BBC she would not run again as Chairperson of the CDU but she would remain as Chancellor of Germany. Presumably the thinking is that this gets her replacement in place and known after a very long time of domination but I can't help feeling she will not survive too long as Chancellor once she has given up control of the party.
    Whats German for lame duck?

    lahme Ente
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044

    The Brexit 50p piece is an inventive way to encourage a societal move to non-cash payments.

    Let Remainers donate all their 50p coins to Leavers - a way to redistribute wealth from the elite to the deserving poor.
    £350 million a week in 50p pieces!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    DavidL said:

    Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
    The initial news from Germany suggested the former but other reports are saying she definitely won’t run again. I think it’s not totally clear yet.
    According to the BBC she would not run again as Chairperson of the CDU but she would remain as Chancellor of Germany. Presumably the thinking is that this gets her replacement in place and known after a very long time of domination but I can't help feeling she will not survive too long as Chancellor once she has given up control of the party.
    Whats German for lame duck?

    lahme Ente
    Zahlungsunfähige, apparently.

    It won't just be Germany that is lame but the whole EU. May needs to get her deal signed off whilst there is still someone who can say yes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    The Brexit 50p piece is an inventive way to encourage a societal move to non-cash payments.

    Let Remainers donate all their 50p coins to Leavers - a way to redistribute wealth from the elite to the deserving poor.
    £350 million a week in 50p pieces!
    I'm not proud. I'll take them....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    What time is the Budget please?
  • What time is the Budget please?

    3:30pm.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    What time is the Budget please?

    3:30pm.
    Cheers.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728

    As an aside, variant 50 pence coins are pretty common. There are quite a lot of £2 like that too.

    (Still not a fan of the new £1. Stupid coin).

    The other day, someone told me there are new 10-pence pieces out, each with a letter of the alphabet on. I haven't had one yet, and I'd like to collect them as spelling tokens for the little 'un.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    What time is the Budget please?

    3:30pm.
    Cheers.
    Unlikely.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    As an aside, variant 50 pence coins are pretty common. There are quite a lot of £2 like that too.

    (Still not a fan of the new £1. Stupid coin).

    The other day, someone told me there are new 10-pence pieces out, each with a letter of the alphabet on. I haven't had one yet, and I'd like to collect them as spelling tokens for the little 'un.
    Just Googled that, they look really good.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    On topic: Jezza won't worry about being a few points down at the start of a GE campaign.

    Why not? The clue is in the last word - 'campaign'.

    Have you considered that next time out, Labour might lose during the campaign, when put under some significant scrutiny - and that the Tories might have learnt a lesson and not put the killing of the first born as a manifesto pledge?
    I do consider both of those things a possibility, though I'm less inclined to buy the former...

    I think the idea that more there'll be more scrutiny on Labour's manifesto next time, and that that will damn them, is largely wishful thinking on the part of true blue believers. For a start, I am not convinced that scrutiny was missing last time - maybe the manifesto was just actually rather good, and struck a chord with many people?

    I concede it is unlikely the Tories will make such a f*ck-up of their campaign next time - but I live in hope. :wink:

    Was there really scrutiny of the choices, trade-offs, consequences and real costs (ignoring the “fully costed” bullshit)? I’d argue no.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Labour may be counting on replicating the 2017 campaign, but I think it will be hard to shift the 40% or so who currently say they will vote Conservative.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    edited October 2018
    Mr. Jessop, yeah, happened to see them on the Royal Mint site.

    Assuming you're not buying there (think it's £35 a time for the mint condition ones), when I renewed my passport some months ago there was a chap who asked one of the workers if he could have as many of the 10p set as possible and he got quite a few that way.

    Edited extra bit: renewed it at the Post Office, that is.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    matt said:

    Charles said:

    To put my earlier comment in perspective (it should have been “feed conversion ratio” not food) this measures the number of calories of feed input required to create 1 calorie worth of protein for human consumption

    Numbers below are from memory so won’t be correct but they are directionally right (if I’ve time I’ll check Them later)

    Beef - 5.7
    Pigs - 2.6
    Poultry - 2.2
    Dairy - 1.9 (I think)
    Fish - 1.7
    (Shrimp I think is in the mid 1s)
    Insect - 1.1

    Beef also uses large amount of land and water (it’s tough to industrialise although you do have feedlots) and creates massive amount of methane (Not CO2 although the greenhouse effect is worse)

    There is a long standing trend in the West towards poultry and fish and I would have much expect this to continue

    For emerging markets milk is one of the best and cheapest sources of animal protein

    Here endeth the lesson

    Milk relies on large scale beef production. Frankly, vegetarianism is a pathetic compromise as all it involves is not eating meat. The environmental issues remain. If you’re serious on the subject, veganism is the only morally justifiable choice.
    And, who would want to be a vegan?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,044
    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
    I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
  • Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
    If we’re not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat ?
  • Brexit 50p coins ‘can be sharpened and thrown at the rats trying to steal your last potato’

    THE new Brexit 50p coin will be a vital weapon against the vermin trying to steal your meagre scraps, it has emerged.

    Economists have praised the government for issuing the small pieces of metal that once sharpened could prove deadly against large rodents, as well as small badgers and foxes.

    Julian Cook, from Roehampton University, said: “From next March, hoard or steal as many coins as you can, and then get yourself a really good quality sharpening stone.

    “The stone will become your best friend.”

    He added: “Divide your pile of coins in two. Use one half as your anti-rat arsenal and the other half to buy paracetamol from Belgian smugglers.”

    Meanwhile, Brexiters have also welcomed the plans but have pledged to walk around with the commemorative coins glued to their foreheads.

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/brexit-50p-coins-can-be-sharpened-and-thrown-at-the-rats-trying-to-steal-your-last-potato-20181029178799
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Some tweets are saying that she has offered to stand down. Is it a back me or sack me situation or a stone cold resignation?
    The initial news from Germany suggested the former but other reports are saying she definitely won’t run again. I think it’s not totally clear yet.
    According to the BBC she would not run again as Chairperson of the CDU but she would remain as Chancellor of Germany. Presumably the thinking is that this gets her replacement in place and known after a very long time of domination but I can't help feeling she will not survive too long as Chancellor once she has given up control of the party.
    Whats German for lame duck?

    lahme Ente
    Zahlungsunfähige, apparently.

    It won't just be Germany that is lame but the whole EU. May needs to get her deal signed off whilst there is still someone who can say yes.
    It's a serious problem for the UK. There is now no significant leader in the Council with the initiative and authority to countermand the Commission (yes, I know that Barnier is working to the Council's position but at the end, these talks always become political and red lines can shift). Except this time, they won't if the absence of any strength in the Franco-German axis means that effective power reverts to the Eurocrats who are less interested in the consequences of No Deal for electorates, and more interested in protecting their interpretation of the principles of The Project, and more habitually given to following rules - at least for public consumption - just because they're there. Also, in the absence of a strong voice from the big countries, the loud ones from the smaller ones will carry the room.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Brexit 50p coins ‘can be sharpened and thrown at the rats trying to steal your last potato’

    THE new Brexit 50p coin will be a vital weapon against the vermin trying to steal your meagre scraps, it has emerged.

    Economists have praised the government for issuing the small pieces of metal that once sharpened could prove deadly against large rodents, as well as small badgers and foxes.

    Julian Cook, from Roehampton University, said: “From next March, hoard or steal as many coins as you can, and then get yourself a really good quality sharpening stone.

    “The stone will become your best friend.”

    He added: “Divide your pile of coins in two. Use one half as your anti-rat arsenal and the other half to buy paracetamol from Belgian smugglers.”

    Meanwhile, Brexiters have also welcomed the plans but have pledged to walk around with the commemorative coins glued to their foreheads.

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/brexit-50p-coins-can-be-sharpened-and-thrown-at-the-rats-trying-to-steal-your-last-potato-20181029178799

    If you put them in a shotgun, you could use them to shoot game.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. F, an ascetic?

    Some people just don't like the taste of meat. Similarly, some people don't drink just because they're not into it.

    I think that's fine, it's pushing one's own preferences onto others which is irksome.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Indeed. But animals are so darned tasty.

    I'm sure shooting up heroin feels fucking awesome but that doesn't mean doing it is a good idea.
    Eating animals, however, is a good idea, It's what they are there for,
    I'm sure wolves and lions have a similar view of humans.
    Certainly.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2018
    If the Good Lord had not meant us to eat beef, He would not have given us the blessing of claret to accompany it.
This discussion has been closed.