politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will Theresa May be Tory leader at the 2019 Tory Party confere

Theuniondivvie said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a fellow Yorkshireman, he should know that people with class don't talk about class.

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1051389143287132160

Only middle-class people think that...

I was recently described as a member of the 'upper middle classes'.

I still haven't recovered.

Did you buy your own furniture? If I recall Alan Clarke correctly, that's the big thing...

I tend to be mystified by the English obsession with class, but I'm pretty sure Clark like to think of himself as upper rather than upper middle. Of course (as with so many other things) he may have been wrong about that, but I guess whatever social stratification Hesseltine resided in, AC was convinced he was above it.

Whatever else he may, or may not have been, socially, Alan Clarke certainly lacked any sort of class when it came to the treatment of women and particularly teenage girls.

Recidivist said:

CarlottaVance said:

Citation required.

I laughed.

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

LordOfReason said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1051525332447227904

Are they called Sherpas because they climb mountains? Butter mountains. Milk mountains. Soda fountain mountains?

I think they are called Sherpas because they do all the work and their political masters claim all the glory.

In this case Donkeys would be far more appropriate

As good Eurocrats perhaps we should go for 'asses?'

This moment must certainly be causing them allama though...

An Alpaca of lies!

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

RoyalBlue said:

malcolmg said:

AndyJS said:

"BBC staff told to use non‑binary pronouns

BBC staff have been told to use non- binary pronouns when addressing gender-fluid or transgender employees to ensure that the corporation does not develop a “heteronormative culture”.

The policy means that BBC workers will be encouraged to refer to non-binary colleagues as “they” or “them”, rather than “he” or “she”.

In addition heterosexual BBC staff will be asked to wear badges identifying themselves as “straight allies” to help their LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) colleagues."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/25ffc92e-ce66-11e8-bde6-fae32479843d

Holy crap, we have to pay a fortune for that kind of bull merde. Time these clowns were cast adrift and forced into the real world.

These seems daft to me, but not because it’s OK to be rude to people who want to be called by a different gender to their physical sex. My objection is that most trans people know whether they want to be called he or she. Why not just do that, rather than jump through grammatical hoops for the 0.0001% of millennials who are so special they need a new category.

Rant over.

Because it's about narcissism.

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

archer101au said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

If you want to know what I think you only have to ask.

In my view Brexit will solidify the Union. After a real Brexit, Scottish independence is dead as an option. A hard border between England and Scotland would economically destroy Scotland; Scottish independence really depends on both parties remaining in the EU.

In NI, although I perfectly understand that a united Ireland will come in due time, Brexit does nothing to damage the union and probably makes it less likely that NI will leave for the same reason as Scotland at least in the medium term. The only thing that threatens the Union is people such as yourself supporting artificial and completely unnecessary economic barriers within the UK just to satisfy the whims of your masters in Brussels.

In what way does Brussels own me?

What Brexit shows is that identity trumps economics - at least up to now. If that continues to be the case, Scotland will leave the Union.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ydoethur said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SandyRentool said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RMT tossers at Northern Rail still striking every Saturday, precluding any attempt to either Retford - Brigg - Barnetby OR Stockport - Guide Bridge

You mean you require those easy routes?!?

Saturdays only, man!

(they changed the Stockport one from Fridays a few months ago - though there is a southbound service as well as the northbound one)

Hi Sunil

I was wondering if you could help. At the moment, the Chase line from Birmingham to Rugeley is closed at weekends to complete the electrification project. I have been trying to find information on (a) when this will finish and (b) whether they are likely to meet he new timetabling deadline (they are already a year behind schedule and £10 million over budget, as ever). I've checked Network Rail's website and amazingly it is as unhelpful as a costing by Diane Abbott. Would you have any idea where I could find out more?

Wikipedia says "December", though they are quoting a 2016 article and a "dead link"!

Interesting that Gavin Williamson is involved after a fashion:

Gavin Williamson, Conservative MP for South Staffordshire, campaigned to limit the speed of trains through Great Wyrley and Cheslyn Hay when the upgrade work of the line is complete. He wrote to then Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, to request confirmation that trains travelling through these areas would not exceed a speed of 45 mph.[14] He also requested that "environmental mitigation measures" be put in place to reduce the potential impact of the electrification on residents in South Staffordshire. Network Rail had previously said that electric trains are quieter, greener and cleaner, reducing carbon emissions.[15]

Just sticking my oar in: it looks as though the wires will be ready for the first testing of the leccy systems later this month, but the timetable won't change until May 2019. That's perhaps because October is a little too late to get stock cascaded and staff trained for the December 2018 timetable change - especially after the issues elsewhere in May this year.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Describes it perfectly, it is not a union of equals in any sense.

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

That has been well and truly trampled since 2014 though.

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

Essentially it has been true, but for much of the last 300 years there was also a sense of Britishness - especially during the Empire, which benefited Scotland just as much as England. That Britishness is fast waning. England and Scotland and Northern Ireland are now heading in very different directions in terms of identity. Brexit shows that clearly.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

I like a visual demonstration (this is from 2011 so I'm GUESSING things haven't got any better from a 'British' point of view).

https://twitter.com/onlmaps/status/1046517571611058176

O/t quite a large write up in the ST today about an obscure Dem fighting a very republican seat in WV called Ojeda. It's weird where they get their stories from, isn't it?

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ydoethur said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SandyRentool said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RMT tossers at Northern Rail still striking every Saturday, precluding any attempt to either Retford - Brigg - Barnetby OR Stockport - Guide Bridge

You mean you require those easy routes?!?

Saturdays only, man!

(they changed the Stockport one from Fridays a few months ago - though there is a southbound service as well as the northbound one)

Hi Sunil

I was wondering if you could help. At the moment, the Chase line from Birmingham to Rugeley is closed at weekends to complete the electrification project. I have been trying to find information on (a) when this will finish and (b) whether they are likely to meet he new timetabling deadline (they are already a year behind schedule and £10 million over budget, as ever). I've checked Network Rail's website and amazingly it is as unhelpful as a costing by Diane Abbott. Would you have any idea where I could find out more?

Wikipedia says "December", though they are quoting a 2016 article and a "dead link"!

Interesting that Gavin Williamson is involved after a fashion:

Gavin Williamson, Conservative MP for South Staffordshire, campaigned to limit the speed of trains through Great Wyrley and Cheslyn Hay when the upgrade work of the line is complete. He wrote to then Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, to request confirmation that trains travelling through these areas would not exceed a speed of 45 mph.[14] He also requested that "environmental mitigation measures" be put in place to reduce the potential impact of the electrification on residents in South Staffordshire. Network Rail had previously said that electric trains are quieter, greener and cleaner, reducing carbon emissions.[15]

This however says it could be as late as May!

http://westmidlandsrail.com/media/2833/west-midlands-rail-article.pdf

Thanks.

That's seriously disheartening but not terribly surprising.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

I think Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do quite nicely out of the union with England.

archer101au said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

If you want to know what I think you only have to ask.

In my view Brexit will solidify the Union. After a real Brexit, Scottish independence is dead as an option. A hard border between England and Scotland would economically destroy Scotland; Scottish independence really depends on both parties remaining in the EU.

In NI, although I perfectly understand that a united Ireland will come in due time, Brexit does nothing to damage the union and probably makes it less likely that NI will leave for the same reason as Scotland at least in the medium term. The only thing that threatens the Union is people such as yourself supporting artificial and completely unnecessary economic barriers within the UK just to satisfy the whims of your masters in Brussels.

Yet we now have polling that shows in Scotland a majority could vote to Leave the UK with No Deal Brexit and the same in NI if there is a hard border with the Republic.


http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2018/10/stupefying-survation-survey-suggests.html


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/northern-ireland-support-join-irish-republic-eu-hard-brexit-poll-lucidtalk-a8098531.html

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Might have been a fair point if Wales had not voted to leave as well.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Unfortunately I think you are right. If we want a historical parallel the civil wars (plural) of the 17th century spring to mind. You have three separate disputes in England, Scotland and Ireland with different motivations, feeding off each other.

OldKingCole said:

FF43 said:

DavidL said:

LordOfReason said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1051525332447227904

Are they called Sherpas because they climb mountains? Butter mountains. Milk mountains. Soda fountain mountains?

I think they are called Sherpas because they do all the work and their political masters claim all the glory.

They also know the mountains and know what they are doing, unlike their masters. As well as doing the hard work. Sherpas are strictly ethnic Tibetans living in Nepal.

At the time that Hillary and Tensing climbed Everest the circulating joke was that they were asked on national TV what the view was like from the top. Hillary enthused about the way the mountains were spread out below him. Tensing shrugged and said it looked much the same as usual.

I remember that as if it was yesterday

Jonathan said:

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

HYUFD said:

If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition

Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?

The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to Nt to the UK

Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.

Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB

RobD is correct; HYUFD is wrong. If NI is ine would be no tariffs does not change this.

So there would still be no tariffs then and no hard border in Ireland which is what most voters in NI want

No, but it erects a border between two parts of the UK.

It does not erect a border with tariffs between GB and NI as the whole UK reat to the Union than keeping NI in the SM and CU

If I were in the Dg.

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum on NI this week to be held in early November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Surely we get a vote too.

No, the UK as a whole voted to Leave the EU it is only NI which also voted for the GFA and hence that also needs to be respected in delivering Brexit

Since this impacts me and how my taxes are spent I am entitled to a vote.

You had your vote in EUref, the future of the GFA does not affect you unlike NI

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other pa

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

Essentially it has been true, but for much of the last 300 years there was also a sense of Britishness - especially during the Empire, which benefited Scotland just as much as England. That Britishness is fast waning. England and Scotland and Northern Ireland are now heading in very different directions in terms of identity. Brexit shows that clearly.

We'll see.

It didn't look that brilliant for years before Brexit, in all honesty.

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

HYUFD said:

If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition

Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?

The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to Nt to the UK

Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.

Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB

RobD is correct; HYUFD is wrong. If NI is ine would be no tariffs does not change this.

So there would still be no tariffs then and no hard border in Ireland which is what most voters in NI want

No, but it erects a border between two parts of the UK.

It does not erect a border with tariffs between GB and NI as the whole UK reat to the Union than keeping NI in the SM and CU

If I were in the Dg.

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum on NI this week to be held in early November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Surely we get a vote too.

No, the UK as a whole voted to Leave the EU it is only NI which also voted for the GFA and hence that also needs to be respected in delivering Brexit

Since this impacts me and how my taxes are spent I am entitled to a vote.

You had your vote in EUref, the future of the GFA does not affect you unlike NI

Disagree. This is about our union.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Ironically it may be a Corbyn government that disproves that. While England will likely have a Tory majority again if he becomes PM it will be because of Welsh Labour and SNP MPs

SouthamObserver said:

tlg86 said:

SouthamObserver said:

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

I think Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do quite nicely out of the union with England.

And the UK did quite well out of membership of the EU. That meant nothing because enough voters felt otherwise.

Oh I don't disagree (well, actually I do, because I think it's the EU that's done well out of our membership). I do find it bizarre that some people - that John Nicolson for example - seem to get upset when English people aren't upset at the prospect of Scotland going independent.

Cyclefree said:

ydoethur said:

Theuniondivvie said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a fellow Yorkshireman, he should know that people with class don't talk about class.

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1051389143287132160

Only middle-class people think that...

I was recently described as a member of the 'upper middle classes'.

I still haven't recovered.

Did you buy your own furniture? If I recall Alan Clarke correctly, that's the big thing...

I tend to be mystified by the English obsession with class, but I'm pretty sure Clark like to think of himself as upper rather than upper middle. Of course (as with so many other things) he may have been wrong about that, but I guess whatever social stratification Hesseltine resided in, AC was convinced he was above it.

Whatever else he may, or may not have been, socially, Alan Clarke certainly lacked any sort of class when it came to the treatment of women and particularly teenage girls.

Well, quite.

And, given that his family money came from trade, he was in no position to be snobbish about Heseltine. Or anyone else.

He was, on a personal level, a total shit.

But he did write some very good diaries.

Alan Clark's father was made Baron Clark though it is true he did not come from an old aristocratic family beyond that

tlg86 said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on not caring that Brexit might lead to the end of the Union. All the polling shows this. In the end, English nationalists care about England. Throw in a Labour party leadership (and membership, I’d hazard) that would clearly prefer a united Ireland and it could be the DUP ends up being its own worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

I think Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do quite nicely out of the union with England.

That is because your are too stupid to know anything about it. Back to ironing your union jack underpants.

ydoethur said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ydoethur said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

SandyRentool said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RMT tossers at Northern Rail still striking every Saturday, precluding any attempt to either Retford - Brigg - Barnetby OR Stockport - Guide Bridge

You mean you require those easy routes?!?

Saturdays only, man!

(they changed the Stockport one from Fridays a few months ago - though there is a southbound service as well as the northbound one)

Hi Sunil

I was wondering if you could help. At the moment, the Chase line from Birmingham to Rugeley is closed at weekends to complete the electrification project. I have been trying to find information on (a) when this will finish and (b) whether they are likely to meet he new timetabling deadline (they are already a year behind schedule and £10 million over budget, as ever). I've checked Network Rail's website and amazingly it is as unhelpful as a costing by Diane Abbott. Would you have any idea where I could find out more?

Wikipedia says "December", though they are quoting a 2016 article and a "dead link"!

Interesting that Gavin Williamson is involved after a fashion:

Gavin Williamson, Conservative MP for South Staffordshire, campaigned to limit the speed of trains through Great Wyrley and Cheslyn Hay when the upgrade work of the line is complete. He wrote to then Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin, to request confirmation that trains travelling through these areas would not exceed a speed of 45 mph.[14] He also requested that "environmental mitigation measures" be put in place to reduce the potential impact of the electrification on residents in South Staffordshire. Network Rail had previously said that electric trains are quieter, greener and cleaner, reducing carbon emissions.[15]

This however says it could be as late as May!

http://westmidlandsrail.com/media/2833/west-midlands-rail-article.pdf

Thanks.

That's seriously disheartening but not terribly surprising.

You're welcome, though Mr Jessop had more info!

Big_G_NorthWales said:

OldKingCole said:

FF43 said:

DavidL said:

LordOfReason said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1051525332447227904

Are they called Sherpas because they climb mountains? Butter mountains. Milk mountains. Soda fountain mountains?

I think they are called Sherpas because they do all the work and their political masters claim all the glory.

They also know the mountains and know what they are doing, unlike their masters. As well as doing the hard work. Sherpas are strictly ethnic Tibetans living in Nepal.

At the time that Hillary and Tensing climbed Everest the circulating joke was that they were asked on national TV what the view was like from the top. Hillary enthused about the way the mountains were spread out below him. Tensing shrugged and said it looked much the same as usual.

I remember that as if it was yesterday

Evening G , I hope you are well tonight.

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referenes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionatean Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Ironically it may be a Corbyn government that disproves that. While England will likely have a Tory majority again if he becomes PM it will be because of Welsh Labour and SNP MPs

Labour’s unelectability under Corbyn contributes to the problem. Left of centre Scots know that he virtually guarantees an increasingly right wing, English nationalist Tory government in Westminster. Given that, what’s the argument for continuing to back the Union? Corbyn himself would be happy see an independent Scotland and delighted to see a united Ireland.

On some current polling Labour + SNP + PC + Green + LD is more than Tory + DUP which would make Corbyn PM even if England voted Tory.


Corbyn will remain a republican, socialist, anti Unionist regardless but he will still only agree to independence for Scotland and Northern Ireland if a majority of Scots or the people of Northern Ireland vote for it in a referendum and his MPs will certainly ensure that is the case

Beverley_C said:

Cyclefree said:

ydoethur said:

Theuniondivvie said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a fellow Yorkshireman, he should know that people with class don't talk about class.

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1051389143287132160

Only middle-class people think that...

I was recently described as a member of the 'upper middle classes'.

I still haven't recovered.

Did you buy your own furniture? If I recall Alan Clarke correctly, that's the big thing...

I tend to be mystified by the English obsession with class, but I'm pretty sure Clark like to think of himself as upper rather than upper middle. Of course (as with so many other things) he may have been wrong about that, but I guess whatever social stratification Hesseltine resided in, AC was convinced he was above it.

Whatever else he may, or may not have been, socially, Alan Clarke certainly lacked any sort of class when it came to the treatment of women and particularly teenage girls.

Well, quite.

And, given that his family money came from trade, he was in no position to be snobbish about Heseltine. Or anyone else.

He was, on a personal level, a total shit.

But he did write some very good diaries.

Snobs are rarely charming.

True 'class' rarely has anything to do with birth, privilege or wealth. I have known people of true working-class with barely two ha'pennys to rub together who act with more dignity than others who see themselves as upper-class and superior.

IMO what matters is who you act towards others, especially those who are less fortunate in whatever way than yourself. That's something people who think themselves as 'upper-class' too often forget. Clark was a classic example. An odious man who could write well.

See also, Mr Johnson, B.

tlg86 said:

SouthamObserver said:

tlg86 said:

SouthamObserver said:

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

I think Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do quite nicely out of the union with England.

And the UK did quite well out of membership of the EU. That meant nothing because enough voters felt otherwise.

Oh I don't disagree (well, actually I do, because I think it's the EU that's done well out of our membership). I do find it bizarre that some people - that John Nicolson for example - seem to get upset when English people aren't upset at the prospect of Scotland going independent.

I think it is sad but inevitable - Brexit will just hasten the process. England needs to stand on its own in order to begin to accept its place in the world as a relatively prosperous, second tier nation state. Only then will we English find proper peace with ourselves and our neighbours.

HYUFD said:

Cyclefree said:

ydoethur said:

Theuniondivvie said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a fellow Yorkshireman, he should know that people with class don't talk about class.

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1051389143287132160

Only middle-class people think that...

I was recently described as a member of the 'upper middle classes'.

I still haven't recovered.

Did you buy your own furniture? If I recall Alan Clarke correctly, that's the big thing...

I tend to be mystified by the English obsession with class, but I'm pretty sure Clark like to think of himself as upper rather than upper middle. Of course (as with so many other things) he may have been wrong about that, but I guess whatever social stratification Hesseltine resided in, AC was convinced he was above it.

Whatever else he may, or may not have been, socially, Alan Clarke certainly lacked any sort of class when it came to the treatment of women and particularly teenage girls.

Well, quite.

And, given that his family money came from trade, he was in no position to be snobbish about Heseltine. Or anyone else.

He was, on a personal level, a total shit.

But he did write some very good diaries.

Alan Clark's father was made Baron Clark though it is true he did not come from an old aristocratic family beyond that

There was nothing remotely aristocratic about the Clarks. Alan Clark was a minor politician who thought his grandfater’s money gave him some sort of status. He was an arriviste boor with no manners. Anyone with any real class would have seen through Clark and avoided him like the plague. His boasting about his sexual conquests made him little better than Trump, frankly.

Unlike Trump he could write well. His diaries are his only claim to fame. His brother, Colin Clark, also wrote an interesting account of his time on the set of The Prince and The Showgirl.

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Ironically it may be a Corbyn government that disproves that. While England will likely have a Tory majority again if he becomes PM it will be because of Welsh Labour and SNP MPs

Labour’s unelectability under Corbyn contributes to the problem. Left of centre Scots know that he virtually guarantees an increasingly right wing, English nationalist Tory government in Westminster. Given that, what’s the argument for continuing to back the Union? Corbyn himself would be happy see an independent Scotland and delighted to see a united Ireland.

Keep reading the Daily Mail guys, my lord rothermere is soon going to be explaining a few things to HMRC, and the French revenue, after all, getting tax exemptions from both countries for non residence could be taken by some as being suspicious...

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is crea

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other pa

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

Essentially it has been true, but for much of the last 300 years there was also a sense of Britishness - especially during the Empire, which benefited Scotland just as much as England. That Britishness is fast waning. England and Scotland and Northern Ireland are now heading in very different directions in terms of identity. Brexit shows that clearly.

We'll see.

It didn't look that brilliant for years before Brexit, in all honesty.

Unfortunately so. But it can be saved still. At least, that is my hope

How?

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

OldKingCole said:

FF43 said:

DavidL said:

LordOfReason said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1051525332447227904

Are they called Sherpas because they climb mountains? Butter mountains. Milk mountains. Soda fountain mountains?

I think they are called Sherpas because they do all the work and their political masters claim all the glory.

They also know the mountains and know what they are doing, unlike their masters. As well as doing the hard work. Sherpas are strictly ethnic Tibetans living in Nepal.

At the time that Hillary and Tensing climbed Everest the circulating joke was that they were asked on national TV what the view was like from the top. Hillary enthused about the way the mountains were spread out below him. Tensing shrugged and said it looked much the same as usual.

I remember that as if it was yesterday

Evening G , I hope you are well tonight.

Indeed I am Malc. Maybe it helps to be relaxed over the madness going on in the Country. Stressing about it won't change anything

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Describes it perfectly, it is not a union of equals in any sense.

My wife would beg to differ. We are a union of equals in every sense as the English/Welshman lives in harmony with the Scots lass for more than 55 years.

It can be done Malc

And on Brexit, I am staying neutral on all the angst and will await the final outcome at which time I will provide my own views, hopefully, in a polite and honest way.

Union of equals with a Scots lass of more than 55 years? I will read your posts with much greater respect going forward.

I believe there is just a chance Malc might appoint me an Honorary Scotsman, even though I am a conservative

I am just an amateur at 33 years (so far) but its been a privilege.

I think Malcolm's point has some validity but not just for Scotland. Its a problem for all of the UK outside London and the South East. Growth requires critical mass of talent and opportunity and where is that critical mass to be found in almost all our growth areas? How do we stop London bleeding us all dry of talent and opportunity? It is one of the biggest challenges we face. Brexit is a walk in the park by comparison.

kle4 said:

SouthamObserver said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce aas GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is crea

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scotsa problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other pa

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

Ess

We'll see.

It didn't look that brilliant for years before Brexit, in all honesty.

Unfortunately so. But it can be saved still. At least, that is my hope

How?

I don't have a manifesto to apply, that's why it is a hope. But nothing is inevitable, and if the sense of Britishness can wane it can wax, as clearly is has in the past. I would think for a longer term solution it would require some quite major change though, probably a more federal approach was required quite some time ago.

Yep, I said we needed a constitutional convention after the Scottish referendum. Instead the Tories went for some convoluted English vote for English laws arrangement that does not seem to have made much difference to anything.

Big G North Wales

My wife would beg to differ. We are a union of equals in every sense as the English/Welshman lives in harmony with the Scots lass for more than 55 years.

It can be done Malc

And on Brexit, I am staying neutral on all the angst and will await the final outcome at which time I will provide my own views, hopefully, in a polite and honest way.
...................................................................................

Malc

It can be done G, but it is not at present, it is very one sided affair at present and cannot continue indefinitely.

....................................................................................

Big G North Wales

I actually agree with you as I would humbly suggest I do understand Scots politics maybe a bit more than some posters on here purport to.

With 66%+ Scots wanting to remain and then being taken out against their will, by the hard Brexiteers who are mainly English, it is not difficult to see why Scotland is so angry and I see it through our social media with our Scottish family and friends.

I hope it will settle down but both my wife and I value the Union and hope it grows stronger with more devolved powers but I really do get angry when some posters actively want Scotland to leave, or worse think that England could somehow stop a second Independence referendum

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

Describes it perfectly, it is not a union of equals in any sense.

My wife would beg to differ. We are a union of equals in every sense as the English/Welshman lives in harmony with the Scots lass for more than 55 years.

It can be done Malc

And on Brexit, I am staying neutral on all the angst and will await the final outcome at which time I will provide my own views, hopefully, in a polite and honest way.

Union of equals with a Scots lass of more than 55 years? I will read your posts with much greater respect going forward.

I believe there is just a chance Malc might appoint me an Honorary Scotsman, even though I am a conservative

I am just an amateur at 33 years (so far) but its been a privilege.

I think Malcolm's point has some validity but not just for Scotland. Its a problem for all of the UK outside London and the South East. Growth requires critical mass of talent and opportunity and where is that critical mass to be found in almost all our growth areas? How do we stop London bleeding us all dry of talent and opportunity? It is one of the biggest challenges we face. Brexit is a walk in the park by comparison.

Move the national capital to Sheffield.

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is creating a hard border in NI by taking the province out of the SM and CU that will create a sectarian division and potentially create a majority for a United Ireland as all the polling shows.


However I know you don't care about that, just as you don't care about Scotland leaving the UK, just as you don't care about crashing the economy with a No Deal Brexit

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other parts of the UK will always be subordinate. In the end that will spell the end of the affair. That is sad, but probably necessary.

I like a visual demonstration (this is from 2011 so I'm GUESSING things haven't got any better from a 'British' point of view).

https://twitter.com/onlmaps/status/1046517571611058176

Ironic that those who are closest to Ulster Protestants in seeing themselves as British above all else are Londoners

And Leicester, of all other cities.

SouthamObserver said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

archer101au said:

HYUFD said:

If I were May I think I would announce a referendum in NI this week to be held in early/mid November as to whether they want to ensure they remain in the SM and CU after Brexit or if they only want to Leave the EU on exactly the same terms as GB even if that means leaving the SM.

The DUP would be free to campaign for the latter option of course. She would only agree a Deal with the EU if the Referendum resulted in a Yes vote for staying in the SM and CU

Yeah, because a referendum on whether NI should be economically separated from the Union is not likely to lead to sectarian division. Not smart.

It is crea

To be fair, Archer is with most Tory Leavers on worst enemy.

It’s a peculiar kind of nationalism that says the majority verdict of 12% of the nation (Scotland and NI) should trump the majority verdict of 88% of the nation (England and Wales).

If Brexit causes the Scots to go for independence, that is no-one’s decision but theirs. Then again, I don’t know why I’m bothering to say this; it isn’t Leavers that have a problem with self-determination.

I'd put it slightly differently: I'm a passionate unionist but, if the only thing holding the union together today is our membership of the European Union, then our union died some time ago.

I think what leaving the EU shows above all else is that we have a Union in which England is utterly dominant and that the wishes of other pa

Hasn't that been essentially true for over 300 years, though?

Works when the interests of all are broadly aligned and self-identifying as British is meaningfully there.

Essentially it has been true, but for much of the last 300 years there was also a sense of Britishness - especially during the Empire, which benefited Scotland just as much as England. That Britishness is fast waning. England and Scotland and Northern Ireland are now heading in very different directions in terms of identity. Brexit shows that clearly.

We'll see.

It didn't look that brilliant for years before Brexit, in all honesty.

Unfortunately so. But it can be saved still. At least, that is my hope

How?

We all live on the same island, and have a huge amount in common.

Ed Balls is predicting it will go down to the wire before BINO.
https://twitter.com/brexit/status/1051562682581581824?s=21

Alan Clark didn’t make the furniture put-down, he merely reported it. Michael Jopling was the usually uncredited originator of the jibe.

JosiasJessop said:

Beverley_C said:

Cyclefree said:

ydoethur said:

Theuniondivvie said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a fellow Yorkshireman, he should know that people with class don't talk about class.

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1051389143287132160

Only middle-class people think that...

I was recently described as a member of the 'upper middle classes'.

I still haven't recovered.

Did you buy your own furniture? If I recall Alan Clarke correctly, that's the big thing...

I tend to be mystified by the English obsession with class, but I'm pretty sure Clark like to think of himself as upper rather than upper middle. Of course (as with so many other things) he may have been wrong about that, but I guess whatever social stratification Hesseltine resided in, AC was convinced he was above it.

Whatever else he may, or may not have been, socially, Alan Clarke certainly lacked any sort of class when it came to the treatment of women and particularly teenage girls.

Well, quite.

And, given that his family money came from trade, he was in no position to be snobbish about Heseltine. Or anyone else.

He was, on a personal level, a total shit.

But he did write some very good diaries.

Snobs are rarely charming.

True 'class' rarely has anything to do with birth, privilege or wealth. I have known people of true working-class with barely two ha'pennys to rub together who act with more dignity than others who see themselves as upper-class and superior.

IMO what matters is who you act towards others, especially those who are less fortunate in whatever way than yourself. That's something people who think themselves as 'upper-class' too often forget. Clark was a classic example. An odious man who could write well.

See also, Mr Johnson, B.

Indeed.

My aunts used to say that good manners were, fundamentally, about kindness to others.

Cyclefree said:

JosiasJessop said:

Beverley_C said:

Cyclefree said:

ydoethur said:

Theuniondivvie said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a fellow Yorkshireman, he should know that people with class don't talk about class.

https://twitter.com/scottishlabour/status/1051389143287132160

Only middle-class people think that...

I was recently described as a member of the 'upper middle classes'.

I still haven't recovered.

Did you buy your own furniture? If I recall Alan Clarke correctly, that's the big thing...

I tend to be mystified by the English obsession with class, but I'm pretty sure Clark like to think of himself as upper rather than upper middle. Of course (as with so many other things) he may have been wrong about that, but I guess whatever social stratification Hesseltine resided in, AC was convinced he was above it.

Whatever else he may, or may not have been, socially, Alan Clarke certainly lacked any sort of class when it came to the treatment of women and particularly teenage girls.

Well, quite.

And, given that his family money came from trade, he was in no position to be snobbish about Heseltine. Or anyone else.

He was, on a personal level, a total shit.

But he did write some very good diaries.

Snobs are rarely charming.

True 'class' rarely has anything to do with birth, privilege or wealth. I have known people of true working-class with barely two ha'pennys to rub together who act with more dignity than others who see themselves as upper-class and superior.

IMO what matters is who you act towards others, especially those who are less fortunate in whatever way than yourself. That's something people who think themselves as 'upper-class' too often forget. Clark was a classic example. An odious man who could write well.

See also, Mr Johnson, B.

Indeed.

My aunts used to say that good manners were, fundamentally, about kindness to others.

Reminds me of times long ago when I was sent, unjustly, to detention

600 lines of

Manners maketh Man

True in the 1950's - true today

AlastairMeeks said:

Something might be up:

https://twitter.com/jason_keen/status/1051568165027803139?s=21

Twitter tells me that's what a phone used to look like.

Can't ring a mobile of the hook...