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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Any chance of the SPD pulling out of this tailspin? As an outsider it seems like if they wait until the next schedule elections there may not be much of an SPD left.
    There is some interesting polling on the ZDF election site previously linked to. The SPD are winning their votes from the old. Greens from the young. Indeed the Greens were only 2% behind CSU amongst under 30s. They are rapidly being replaced as the left of centre party.
    I refer to my earlier post.

    We are entering into a values/cultural wars/open vs closed world now, no longer class/economics.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So. How should individuals prepare for a No Deal Brexit?

    - Replenish the larder
    - No holidays abroad post 30/3/2019
    - Move investments abroad or into non-sterling currencies
    - Get bicycles into good working order.
    - Get delivery of my new kitchen (from Dutch suppliers) well before March
    - Plant winter veg
    - Stock up on candles and cardigans
    - Avoid Kent
    - Prepare cutting remarks for any Tory canvassers knocking on my door

    As an EU citizen do I get special priority for food / medicine parcels from the EU?

    Anything I've missed?

    Buy a blanket to hide your blushes when none of this proves necessary
    ... because No Deal won't happen, or because No Deal won't cause any issues?
    Because any issues will be minor and transitory
    I hope we never find out, but if we do I hope I am wrong and I'll be happy to acknowledge it in that case.

    I look forward to you admitting the error of your judgement when No Deal proves to be a complete sh*tstorm - it will be a very small compensation.
    Because the kind of outcomes posited by the more ludicrous Remainers would be tantamount to a declaration of war by the EU. Ain’t gonna happen
    There really has been some utterly hysterical bollocks spouted on here and tbf in the media about what will happen.

    Yes Faizal Islam - I am looking at you.
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1051559785815044096?s=20
    'A dream itself is but a shadow.’

    Hamlet
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Any chance of the SPD pulling out of this tailspin? As an outsider it seems like if they wait until the next schedule elections there may not be much of an SPD left.
    There is some interesting polling on the ZDF election site previously linked to. The SPD are winning their votes from the old. Greens from the young. Indeed the Greens were only 2% behind CSU amongst under 30s. They are rapidly being replaced as the left of centre party.
    I refer to my earlier post.

    We are entering into a values/cultural wars/open vs closed world now, no longer class/economics.

    Don't disagree. However, I would argue that has been slowly happening since the 80's. Class based voting has been on the decline for longer. But the GFC has accelerated this trend.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theresa May has somehow managed to manipulate herself into four separate checkmates at the same time, without even realising she was playing chess.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    edited October 2018
    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Stephen Nolan says he is deluded and the expert with him agreed
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    edited October 2018

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575

    HYUFD said:
    Sounds ridiculously sensible.

    Has he not heard that most of his party have completely lost their heads?
    Boles for PM!
  • rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
  • The suggestion by Nick Boles would be a very sensible compromise and positive step forward. Would also command broad support. Possibly too sensible....!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    He was implying, or, to be charitable, was not being overly clear, about the difference between Irish citizens living in Ireland and those resident in UK.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    And UK citizens resident in Ireland can vote in Dail elections - but not Presidential elections or constitutional referendums. Shocked know it all Stephen Nolan didn't know that!

    The Irish are unique in being the only non Commonwealth nationals who can vote in UK elections - and arguably as no Commonwealth nations have a reciprocal arrangement should be the only foreign nationals who can vote in UK general elections. Why should Indian or Aussie or Nigerian nationals be able to vote in all UK elections when we cannot vote in theirs?

    I am surprised though that no one has picked up on Bridgen's actual mistake. He claimed under the common travel area UK citizens moving to Ireland can get an Irish passport - which is of course rubbish as if that was the case millions would be moving across the Irish sea come 29 March! Brits resident in Ireland can apply for citizenship after 5 years of residency - like anyone else.

    So Bridgen had a shunt if not a car crash.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    I better warn my Irish mother - she has voted in every UK general election since 1964! I hope she doesn't get arrested for breaking the law!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,454

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    edited October 2018
    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    1 We disagree .
    2 Who knows ? Owt could happen .
    3 Would be bad.

    As for EU overplaying their hand...IF I am right 1 would be good for them. 3 bad for them worse for us.
    2 will be what they want to avoid at all costs .

  • brendan16 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    I better warn my Irish mother - she has voted in every UK general election since 1964! I hope she doesn't get arrested for breaking the law!
    Has she voted in English election while living in Ireland, ie not domiciled in GB
  • rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
    Irish experts on Ireland
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
    The Irish very nicely held a referendum in 1984 to amend their constitution to allow foreign nationals to vote in Irish general elections - explicitly to grant British nationals resident there the right to vote as this was extended by statute to Brits and only Brits. It passed with 75% of the vote.

    The Irish resident in Britain have had the right to vote here in general elections since the 1949 Ireland act which recognised the Irish republic's creation and it leaving the Commonwealth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited October 2018
    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    3 Leads to 1 inevitably anyway (except against No Deal Remain would almost certainly win by about 55% to 45%
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7.)

    The only option to save Brexit otherwise would be EFTA and the Norway option.

    2 May lead to Corbyn as PM of a minority government in which case it would be largely BINO Brexit anyway except unlike May he would have the votes for it

  • brendan16 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
    The Irish very nicely held a referendum in 1984 to amend their constitution to allow foreign nationals to vote in Irish general elections - explicitly to grant British nationals resident there to vote as this was extended by statute to Brits and only Brits. It passed with 75% of the vote.

    The Irish resident in Britain have had the right to vote here in general elections since the 1949 Ireland act which recognised the Irish republic's creation and it leaving the Commonwealth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
    Yes but was your mother domiciled in GB or Ireland
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    Irish citizens living in the UK can vote in UK elections, and indeed could vote in the recent EU referendum.
    UK citizens living in the republic can vote in Ireland elections, except for Presidential elections.
    However Irish citizens living in the republic cannot vote in UK elections, and UK citizens living in the UK cannot vote in Ireland elections.
    I don't know what the rules are for people with homes in both places.
  • brendan16 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
    The Irish very nicely held a referendum in 1984 to amend their constitution to allow foreign nationals to vote in Irish general elections - explicitly to grant British nationals resident there the right to vote as this was extended by statute to Brits and only Brits. It passed with 75% of the vote.

    The Irish resident in Britain have had the right to vote here in general elections since the 1949 Ireland act which recognised the Irish republic's creation and it leaving the Commonwealth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
    Bridgen was saying non domiciled Irish citizens could vote in GB elections and that is when it all kicked off. He said everyone in Ireland can vote in GB elections
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited October 2018
    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    1 We disagree .
    2 Who knows ? Owt could happen .
    3 Would be bad.

    As for EU overplaying their hand...IF I am right 1 would be good. 3 bad for them worse for us.
    2 will be what they want to avoid .

    We don't disagree that much, I am not certain Leave would win a referendum: for one thing Leaver mights boycott the whole thing, ensuring a Remain win (if that is the choice), but also ensuring an even bigger mess. Could we really Remain on a much smaller mandate?!

    2. Agreed. But my hunch is Corbyn is still so offputting (and TMay would get a sympathy vote) we'd either see a repeat of 2017, or maybe a small increase in Tory seats. #

    3. Is increasingly likely.

    3 is also increasingly tempting. Just take the big hit, go down, and recover. Like an addict that has to hit rock bottom, pissing himself in some grotty stairwell, before going into rehab, then regaining a life.

    It would be hard on all of us, but it's arguably the most likely way for the UK to survive intact and we'd soon develop an Us v Them attitude, and we'd be forced to look out for ourselves. We'd have to shape up.

    The EU can go fuck itself with a frozen pig's cock,
    3 Means it is 50 50 Scotland votes for independence, highly likely Northern Ireland votes for a United Ireland and leads to divisions with Protestants and it also crashes the economy.

    3 is also the only realistic route for Remainers to reverse Brexit as almost every poll shows voters would rather Remain than accept No Deal
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,873
    edited October 2018
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    Irish citizens living in the UK can vote in UK elections, and indeed could vote in the recent EU referendum.
    UK citizens living in the republic can vote in Ireland elections, except for Presidential elections.
    However Irish citizens living in the republic cannot vote in UK elections, and UK citizens living in the UK cannot vote in Ireland elections.
    I don't know what the rules are for people with homes in both places.
    And Bridgen said exactly your wording in the third sentence but could, not cannot - got into a complete mess, and rang off
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    Irish citizens living in the UK can vote in UK elections, and indeed could vote in the recent EU referendum.
    UK citizens living in the republic can vote in Ireland elections, except for Presidential elections.
    However Irish citizens living in the republic cannot vote in UK elections, and UK citizens living in the UK cannot vote in Ireland elections.
    I don't know what the rules are for people with homes in both places.
    You vote in the country you are ordinarily resident in - it has nothing to do with owning property.

    Ordinarily resident has the same definition as here i.e. you live there in on a lawful, voluntary and properly settled basis for the time being.

    Under the Irish electoral rules you can only register on the electoral register to vote in the subsequent year if you were ordinarily resident on 1 September in the previous year.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935
    brendan16 said:

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    Irish citizens living in the UK can vote in UK elections, and indeed could vote in the recent EU referendum.
    UK citizens living in the republic can vote in Ireland elections, except for Presidential elections.
    However Irish citizens living in the republic cannot vote in UK elections, and UK citizens living in the UK cannot vote in Ireland elections.
    I don't know what the rules are for people with homes in both places.
    You vote in the country you are ordinarily resident in - it has nothing to do with owning property.

    Ordinarily resident has the same definition as here i.e. you live there in on a lawful, voluntary and properly settled basis for the time being.

    Under the Irish electoral rules you can only register on the electoral register to vote in the subsequent year if you were ordinarily resident on 1 September in the previous year.
    I said "homes", not "houses"... :)

    However I didn't know about the 1st September thing, so thank you.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    1 We disagree .
    2 Who knows ? Owt could happen .
    3 Would be bad.

    As for EU overplaying their hand...IF I am right 1 would be good. 3 bad for them worse for us.
    2 will be what they want to avoid .

    We don't disagree that much, I am not certain Leave would win a referendum: for one thing Leaver mights boycott the whole thing, ensuring a Remain win (if that is the choice), but also ensuring an even bigger mess. Could we really Remain on a much smaller mandate?!

    2. Agreed. But my hunch is Corbyn is still so offputting (and TMay would get a sympathy vote) we'd either see a repeat of 2017, or maybe a small increase in Tory seats. #

    3. Is increasingly likely.

    3 is also increasingly tempting. Just take the big hit, go down, and recover. Like an addict that has to hit rock bottom, pissing himself in some grotty stairwell, before going into rehab, then regaining a life.

    It would be hard on all of us, but it's arguably the most likely way for the UK to survive intact and we'd soon develop an Us v Them attitude, and we'd be forced to look out for ourselves. We'd have to shape up.

    The EU can go fuck itself with a frozen pig's cock,
    On 1 I reckon marginal turnout would benefit Remain.
    2 I did say owt could happen .A Tory majority is one possibility among a few.
    3 As a Remainer and Labour voter, I am increasingly leaning that way. Except that it is anti-Europe free market fundamentalism which we will need to wean off.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    brendan16 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
    The Irish very nicely held a referendum in 1984 to amend their constitution to allow foreign nationals to vote in Irish general elections - explicitly to grant British nationals resident there to vote as this was extended by statute to Brits and only Brits. It passed with 75% of the vote.

    The Irish resident in Britain have had the right to vote here in general elections since the 1949 Ireland act which recognised the Irish republic's creation and it leaving the Commonwealth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
    Yes but was your mother domiciled in GB or Ireland
    She has lived in the UK since the early 1960s - so 1964 was her first general election. Never took up UK citizenship - never needed to given the 1949 Act and common travel area. And always had the vote - as has any Irish person resident here since 1949 as of right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited October 2018
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    1 We disagree .
    2 Who knows ? Owt could happen .
    3 Would be bad.

    As for EU overplaying their hand...IF I am right 1 would be good. 3 bad for them worse for us.
    2 will be what they want to avoid .

    We don't disagree that much, I am not certain Leave would win a referendum: for one thing Leaver mights boycott the whole thing, ensuring a Remain win (if that is the choice), but also ensuring an even bigger mess. Could we really Remain on a much smaller mandate?!

    2. Agreed. But my hunch is Corbyn is still so offputting (and TMay would get a sympathy vote) we'd either see a repeat of 2017, or maybe a small increase in Tory seats. #

    3. Is increasingly likely.

    3 is also increasingly tempting. Just take the big hit, go down, and recover. Like an addict that has to hit rock bottom, pissing himself in some grotty stairwell, before going into rehab, then regaining a life.

    It would be hard on all of us, but it's arguably the most likely way for the UK to survive intact and we'd soon develop an Us v Them attitude, and we'd be forced to look out for ourselves. We'd have to shape up.

    The EU can go fuck itself with a frozen pig's cock,
    3 Means it is 50 50 Scotland votes for independence, highly likely Northern Ireland votes for a United Ireland and leads to divisions with Prorestants and it also crashes the economy.

    3 is also the only realistic route for Remainers to reverse Brexit as almost every poll shows voters would rather Remain than accept No Deal
    You think Scotland would vote to leave the UK Single Market (far more important than the EU to the Scottish economy)? They may want to, but would they? Who knows.

    Likewise Ulster. No one knows.

    No Deal is a roll of the dice for everyone. It may be the only way to settle this.
    52% of Scots would vote Yes to independence if No Deal according to Survation

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16966029.poll-50-of-scots-would-vote-for-independence-after-brexit/

    56% of Northern Irish would vote to Leave the UK if a hard border with the Republic

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-would-boost-support-for-united-ireland-poll-finds-1.3616129?mode=amp

    UK wide voters would vote 55% to 45% for Remain over No Deal anyway

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7
  • SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    3 Leads to 1 inevitably anyway (except against No Deal Remain would almost certainly win by about 55% to 45%
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7.)

    The only option to save Brexit otherwise would be EFTA and the Norway option.

    2 May lead to Corbyn as PM of a minority government in which case it would be largely BINO Brexit anyway except unlike May he would have the votes for it

    You ignore the possibility of actual NO DEAL. I thought this was impossible, but I have been talking to some mild Remainers recently and they are increasingly bloody-minded towards Europe. The hardcore Remoaners are on Twitter, lots of real Remainers say we have to respect the referendum (even if we disagree with the result) and if the EU's tactics mean No Deal, so be it.

    Views are becoming entrenched. Us v Them. It's human nature.
    That's true. People do also typically vote based on their own self interest though. In a no deal vs. remain referendum, that's now a much starker question that last time.

    A lot would depend on the mood music around any campaign and how it might play out in practice.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    These are the 29 toss-up districts according to RCP. The Democrats need 13 of them to take control, the GOP 17 to keep control according to the site.

    CA10 CA25 CA39
    CA45 CA48 FL26
    FL27 IA3 IL6
    IL12 KS2 KS3
    KY6 ME2 MI8
    NC9 NJ3 NJ7
    NJ11 NM2 NY19
    NY22 PA1 TX7
    TX32 UT4 VA5
    VA7 WA8
  • brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    "Experts"....
    The Irish very nicely held a referendum in 1984 to amend their constitution to allow foreign nationals to vote in Irish general elections - explicitly to grant British nationals resident there to vote as this was extended by statute to Brits and only Brits. It passed with 75% of the vote.

    The Irish resident in Britain have had the right to vote here in general elections since the 1949 Ireland act which recognised the Irish republic's creation and it leaving the Commonwealth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
    Yes but was your mother domiciled in GB or Ireland
    She has lived in the UK since the early 1960s - so 1964 was her first general election. Never took up UK citizenship - never needed to given the 1949 Act and common travel area. And always had the vote - as has any Irish person resident here since 1949 as of right.
    No that is fine but that is not what caused the row. Bridgen said Irish citizens living in Ireland can vote in GB elections
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018
    SeanT said:
    Do they mean we will be leaving early - in weeks - with no deal. Or the plans need to be ready and start being implemented within weeks? I assume the latter - although one should ask why they aren't ready to go now?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    SeanT said:
    So the negotiations might collapse utterly. I don’t think that will lead to a wave of pro-European sentiment; quite the reverse.

    I have no idea how a second referendum would go.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Absolute car crash by Andrew Bridgen on Stephen Nolan on 5 live

    He was completely taken apart and actually said citizens of the Irish Republic can vote in UK elections

    He rang off and is being torn apart

    So embarrassing - and this is the level of understanding of one of the hardest brexiteers

    Irish citizens can vote in UK elections.

    Edit to add: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance
    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    Irish citizens living in the UK can vote in UK elections, and indeed could vote in the recent EU referendum.
    UK citizens living in the republic can vote in Ireland elections, except for Presidential elections.
    However Irish citizens living in the republic cannot vote in UK elections, and UK citizens living in the UK cannot vote in Ireland elections.
    I don't know what the rules are for people with homes in both places.
    And Bridgen said exactly your wording in the third sentence but could, not cannot - got into a complete mess, and rang off
    Did he - I was listening and as I recollect it he said Brits moving to Ireland could vote in Irish elections which is correct. The discussion was about rights when Brits moved to Ireland and vice versa re the common travel area. The rain was heavy in the car - but that is my recollection.

    His mistake immediately prior to that was claiming Brits moving to Ireland would automatically be granted an Irish passport - which of course is nonsense! That was the howler - why is no one picking up on that?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited October 2018
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    1 We disagree .
    2 Who knows ? Owt could happen .
    3 Would be bad.

    As for EU overplaying their hand...IF I am right 1 would be good. 3 bad for them worse for us.
    2 will be what they want to avoid .

    We don't disagree that much, I am not certain Leave would win a referendum: for one thing Leaver mights boycott the whole thing, ensuring a Remain win (if that is the choice), but also ensuring an even bigger mess. Could we really Remain on a much smaller mandate?!

    2. Agreed. But my hunch is Corbyn is still so offputting (and TMay would get a sympathy vote) we'd either see a repeat of 2017, or maybe a small increase in Tory seats. #

    3. Is increasingly likely.

    3 is also increasingly tempting. Just take the big hit, go down, and recover. Like an addict that has to hit rock bottom, pissing himself in some grotty stairwell, before going into rehab, then regaining a life.

    It would be hard on all of us, but it's arguably the most likely way for the UK to survive intact and we'd soon develop an Us v Them attitude, and we'd be forced to look out for ourselves. We'd have to shape up.

    The EU can go fuck itself with a frozen pig's cock,
    3 Means it is 50 50 Scotland votes for independence, highly likely Northern Ireland votes for a United Ireland and leads to divisions with Prorestants and it also crashes the economy.

    3 is also the only realistic route for Remainers to reverse Brexit as almost every poll shows voters would rather Remain than accept No Deal
    You think Scotland would vote to may be the only way to settle this.
    52% of Scots would vote Yes to independence if No Deal according to Survation

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16966029.poll-50-of-scots-would-vote-for-independence-after-brexit/

    56% of Northern Irish would vote to Leave the UK if a hard border with the Republic

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-would-boost-support-for-united-ireland-poll-finds-1.3616129?mode=amp

    UK wide voters would vote 55% to 45% for Remain over No Deal anyway

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7
    Panelbase has No to independence still ahead 52% to 48% if No Deal in Scotland but still tighter than the 55% to 45% in 2014

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-brexit-pushes-scots-to-break-from-the-uk-shows-poll-5kkpfb2dv
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:
    So the negotiations might collapse utterly. I don’t think that will lead to a wave of pro-European sentiment; quite the reverse.

    I have no idea how a second referendum would go.
    Remain would win it if the alternative is No Deal in a referendum before Brexit Day
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:
    So the negotiations might collapse utterly. I don’t think that will lead to a wave of pro-European sentiment; quite the reverse.

    I have no idea how a second referendum would go.
    Irrelevant - there is no time for that
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    3 Leads to 1 inevitably anyway (except against No Deal Remain would almost certainly win by about 55% to 45%
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-voters-would-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-no-deal-brexit-2018-7.)

    The only option to save Brexit otherwise would be EFTA and the Norway option.

    2 May lead to Corbyn as PM of a minority government in which case it would be largely BINO Brexit anyway except unlike May he would have the votes for it

    Again, there is NO time for a second referendum

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:
    So the negotiations might collapse utterly. I don’t think that will lead to a wave of pro-European sentiment; quite the reverse.

    I have no idea how a second referendum would go.
    Remain would win it if the alternative is No Deal in a referendum before Brexit Day
    I am really not sure. Nor are you. And what if Leavers boycott en masse, like Catalunya? Then the referendum means nothing.

    And you have a valid claim about the legitimacy of the vote. The referendum in 2016 was mandated by the result of the previous general election. People were told this was a once in a generation vote and the government would implement the result. What is the mandate for this second vote - yes parliament can legally approve it but that is a different matter.

    I expect the reaction from many leavers might well be - we voted so why should we have to vote again? Why should the result of the second vote be respected by those who were told their first 'once in a generation' vote was null and void and they need to vote again. Do we just keep voting until we vote the way the 'elites' want Irish style?

    What happens if turnout were well down and remain won by less than 4 per cent. Could leavers have best of 3?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    Well yeah. But the time a Times leader lecture carried traction has passed .
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    SeanT said:

    The EU has calamitously overplayed its hand.

    TMay is now cornered.

    3 possibilities:

    1. 2nd referendum (which I think Leave would probably win)
    2. A GE, which quite probably changes nothing re Brexit
    3. No Deal

    I think a GE probably gets you to a deal, provided TMay still leads Con into it. Options with approximate probabilities pulled out of arse:

    a) Lab+SNP+LD maj > 10, take TMay's deal - 40%
    b) Con maj > 10, screw the DUP, border in the Irish Sea - 40%
    c) Same result, same stalemate: 20%
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience. This behavior of talking about the EU instead of to the EU has been a characteristic of the UK since negotiations started, and it will presumably end the same way the others did.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Telegraph suggests May put the kibosh on the deal, with Raab delivering the message:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1051577601846861829
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    You don't think people in the EU read English?

    Funny that, there was a lot of discussion here yesterday of a German language report in a German newspaper, and I though we were supposed to be the incurious isolationists?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2018
    I wonder how many SNP supporters are opposed to independence and in favour of Brexit?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited October 2018
    brendan16 said:

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:



    Well the experts are taking him apart and say it was total ignorance

    I pasted the wrong link. See the second paragraph of this https://www.gov.uk/elections-in-the-uk
    Well the programme and the Irish experts are continuing to take Bridgen apart for suggesting someone living in Ireland can vote in English elections

    Irish citizens living in the UK can vote in UK elections, and indeed could vote in the recent EU referendum.
    UK citizens living in the republic can vote in Ireland elections, except for Presidential elections.
    However Irish citizens living in the republic cannot vote in UK elections, and UK citizens living in the UK cannot vote in Ireland elections.
    I don't know what the rules are for people with homes in both places.
    And Bridgen said exactly your wording in the third sentence but could, not cannot - got into a complete mess, and rang off
    Did he - I was listening and as I recollect it he said Brits moving to Ireland could vote in Irish elections which is correct. The discussion was about rights when Brits moved to Ireland and vice versa re the common travel area. The rain was heavy in the car - but that is my recollection.

    His mistake immediately prior to that was claiming Brits moving to Ireland would automatically be granted an Irish passport - which of course is nonsense! That was the howler - why is no one picking up on that?
    Irish citizens moving to the UK are deemed “settled” in the UK upon arrival (other EU citizens have to exercise their treaty rights to live in the UK for five years before they can apply for “settled” status). This is because of the wording of the Ireland Act 1949 which states that Ireland is not to treated as a foreign country. It’s also the reason why Irish citizens resident in the UK may vote in all UK elections and referenda. Irish citizens living in the UK still have to wait five years as “settled” before applying for British citizenship, if they don’t already have it from birth.

    On the Irish side, I don’t know the full ins and outs of their legislation, but it’s pretty reciprocal in practice except that only Irish citizens may vote in their Presidential elections and constitutional referenda. IIRC after five years’ residence in the Republic British citizens can apply for Irish citizenship and I think it may only be three years if married to an Irish citizen.

    ETA that British citizens born in NI are regarded by Irish law as automatically Irish citizens from birth, as are the children of all Irish-born Irish citizens.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    @Brendan16

    If I recall correctly, out of the 53 countries in the Commonwealth, 8 or 9 allow British citizens to vote in their elections. And they're mostly super small Caribbean nations.
  • viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    51% of EU adult citizens have some understanding of English.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience. This behavior of talking about the EU instead of to the EU has been a characteristic of the UK since negotiations started, and it will presumably end the same way the others did.
    Moreover, this is quite important from the Times. It's a Remain voting paper. It is still the voice of the Establishment. It is the centre, centre right. The supposedly sensible bit of Britain. And it has been wildly critical of the Tory negotiation of Brexit up to now.

    If the Times now accepts the referendum, accepts there can't be a 2nd referendum, and suggests that it is time for Brussels to do its bit and compromise, or we crash out, then Brussels should listen.
    Precisely. It's not just what was written, but who was writing it.

    A Daily Mail leader pointing out that there had been no decisive shift in British opinion (despite what Messers Blair, Clegg & Mandelson keep telling them) ruling out a second referendum and calling on Brussels to compromise would hardly be newsworthy. The Times doing it on the other hand....
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935

    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    You don't think people in the EU read English?

    Funny that, there was a lot of discussion here yesterday of a German language report in a German newspaper, and I though we were supposed to be the incurious isolationists?
    I assume some people in the EU can read English
    I assume some people in the EU do read English
    But I think in the everyday course of events most read their own language in their own papers.

    Pop into a bookshop (not an airport bookshop!) next time you're in Foreign. You'll see what I mean. Even our esteemed @SeanT has to get his books translated into German before the Germans will buy it ("Das autor de 'Der Kinder Eis'")
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    You don't think people in the EU read English?

    Funny that, there was a lot of discussion here yesterday of a German language report in a German newspaper, and I though we were supposed to be the incurious isolationists?
    I assume some people in the EU can read English
    I assume some people in the EU do read English
    But I think in the everyday course of events most read their own language in their own papers.

    Pop into a bookshop (not an airport bookshop!) next time you're in Foreign. You'll see what I mean. Even our esteemed @SeanT has to get his books translated into German before the Germans will buy it ("Das autor de 'Der Kinder Eis'")
    The Times should be writing a German edition?
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    @Brendan16

    If I recall correctly, out of the 53 countries in the Commonwealth, 8 or 9 allow British citizens to vote in their elections. And they're mostly super small Caribbean nations.

    Noted - but most of those nations like Jamaica and Antigua and Grenada and Dominica do not allow you to exercise that right if you 'have allegiance to a foreign state' (if you are a UK citizen you surely have that), or don't allow you to vote for the national assembly (Belize and Guyana) or like Barbados and Mauritius require 2 or 3 years residency. So its not unlimited - and you need to have permanent residency to live and work there which means few Brits would ever qualify as tourists can only stay for 90 days.

    None allow residency as of right to Brits and the unrestricted right to vote in general elections as of right.

    So I accept the point and apologise for my error!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    There's one stand-out front page today.....don't mention the war EU

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1051580501859930113
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,935
    RobD said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    You don't think people in the EU read English?

    Funny that, there was a lot of discussion here yesterday of a German language report in a German newspaper, and I though we were supposed to be the incurious isolationists?
    I assume some people in the EU can read English
    I assume some people in the EU do read English
    But I think in the everyday course of events most read their own language in their own papers.

    Pop into a bookshop (not an airport bookshop!) next time you're in Foreign. You'll see what I mean. Even our esteemed @SeanT has to get his books translated into German before the Germans will buy it ("Das autor de 'Der Kinder Eis'")
    The Times should be writing a German edition?
    If they want to reach a German audience, then yes. How else would you do it?
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018

    There's one stand-out front page today.....don't mention the war EU

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1051580501859930113

    No Brexit news is good Brexit news perhaps?

    Will Fergie and Prince Andrew be eligible for the dancing on the NHS scheme? Perhaps Katya and Seann can lend their dancing services for free as penance for their sins?

    And how is this an NHS function - it is more a social care/council responsibility. But then why give the NHS another £20bn and continue to slash council funding and cause more cuts to social care.

    Nice idea - but what about the lonely who can't actually get out of their homes as they are too frail to dance? How about properly funding those charities which give every old person a phone call or visit a week.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    edited October 2018
    brendan16 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Brendan16

    If I recall correctly, out of the 53 countries in the Commonwealth, 8 or 9 allow British citizens to vote in their elections. And they're mostly super small Caribbean nations.

    Noted - but most of those nations like Jamaica and Antigua and Grenada and Dominica do not allow you to exercise that right if you 'have allegiance to a foreign state' (if you are a UK citizen you surely have that), or don't allow you to vote for the national assembly (Belize and Guyana) or like Barbados and Mauritius require 2 or 3 years residency. So its not unlimited - and you need to have permanent residency to live and work there which means few Brits would ever qualify as tourists can only stay for 90 days.

    None allow residency as of right to Brits and the unrestricted right to vote in general elections as of right.

    So I accept the point and apologise for my error!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote
    We have the slightly odd policy of not allowing - for example - Indians to easily come here. But if they do, they get the vote.

    Personally, I am OK with us having reciprocal agreements with countries where we have strong historic ties. But the key word is reciprocal.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    You don't think people in the EU read English?

    Funny that, there was a lot of discussion here yesterday of a German language report in a German newspaper, and I though we were supposed to be the incurious isolationists?
    I assume some people in the EU can read English
    I assume some people in the EU do read English
    51% of EU adult citizens have some understanding of English.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union

    The next most widely understood lingo is German on only 32%.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2018
    RealClearPolitics has the GOP on 201 seats excluding marginal districts. The New York Times is polling most of those marginal districts, and it is finding the GOP ahead in 12 of them, which would put them on 213 seats, just 5 short of a majority. There are plenty of other close districts which they haven't polled yet.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/house/2018_elections_house_map.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-polls.html

    The 12 the GOP are ahead in at the moment are as follows:

    CA25, FL26, IL6, IL12, KY6, ME2, MI8, NC9, NJ7, TX7, TX32, VA7
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893
    viewcode said:

    RobD said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Times leader:

    The truth is that, in the end, only compromise can break the deadlock. British public opinion has not shifted enough to warrant a second referendum and the verdict of the first has to be respected. Mrs May has to understand that some parts of Chequers will not pass a vote in parliament. There is a deal to be done that is closer to the free-trade model of Canada, which could command wider support than her plan. Then it would be incumbent on the most ardent of Brexiteers to accept that some of what they wanted is preferable to none of what they wanted. Labour MPs should follow suit by voting for a deal rather than no deal.

    None of this will be possible unless Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, is prepared to do as he pledged and find a non-dramatic solution to the Irish border question. Without compromise from Brussels, Mrs May’s position is impossible.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-for-compromise-gxqrl6pps

    You'll excuse me if I beat my head against the desk until it bleeds. The article is in the English language in a British newspaper aimed at an Anglophone audience.
    You don't think people in the EU read English?

    Funny that, there was a lot of discussion here yesterday of a German language report in a German newspaper, and I though we were supposed to be the incurious isolationists?
    I assume some people in the EU can read English
    I assume some people in the EU do read English
    But I think in the everyday course of events most read their own language in their own papers.

    Pop into a bookshop (not an airport bookshop!) next time you're in Foreign. You'll see what I mean. Even our esteemed @SeanT has to get his books translated into German before the Germans will buy it ("Das autor de 'Der Kinder Eis'")
    The Times should be writing a German edition?
    If they want to reach a German audience, then yes. How else would you do it?
    Isn't it aimed at people who we can be pretty confident do understand English?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    One bit of grim humour doing the rounds - in Washington MBS (Mohammed Bin Salman) now stands for "Mister Bone Saw"....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,893
    New thread...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    AndyJS said:

    RealClearPolitics has the GOP on 201 seats excluding marginal districts. The New York Times is polling most of those marginal districts, and it is finding the GOP ahead in 12 of them, which would put them on 213 seats, just 5 short of a majority. There are plenty of other close districts which they haven't polled yet.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/house/2018_elections_house_map.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-polls.html

    The 12 the GOP are ahead in at the moment are as follows:

    CA25, FL26, IL6, IL12, KY6, ME2, MI8, NC9, NJ7, TX7, TX32, VA7

    So still short of a majority then
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:
    So the negotiations might collapse utterly. I don’t think that will lead to a wave of pro-European sentiment; quite the reverse.

    I have no idea how a second referendum would go.
    Remain would win it if the alternative is No Deal in a referendum before Brexit Day
    I am really not sure. Nor are you. And what if Leavers boycott en masse, like Catalunya? Then the referendum means nothing.

    Of course it means something and if Leavers boycott tough
This discussion has been closed.