Whoever is perceived as being ultimately responsible for owning "no deal" will go down in history.
And I fear not in a good way.
It may even lead to the Conservatives being out of power for a generation as they will have to face the consequences / fall-out most directly.
And people say there are no Brexit benefits.
The Tories were going to be out of power at some point anyway. If we make it to 2022 they will have been in power 12 years, being out of power for 10 or so after that would seem not that abnormal, Brexit or no. Honestly I don't think there's anything they can do to avoid being out of power for a generation, the only question is if that starts at the next election or the one after.
I think the suggester implied that they would be out of power until 2047 or so.
Which if I make to 2022 means I’ll never see another Tory PM.
TARGET!!!
When people say 'for a generation' it is pretty unclear what they could mean. But people probably regard 1997-2010 as the Tories being out for a generation, or 1979-1997 for Labour.
In my darker moods I often wonder if Brexit will do the Tory Party what World War One did to the Liberal Party.
There will always be votes in the hard right English nationalism that the Tories will clearly move to once May has gone. She spent two wasted years trying to pander it. What a waste of time.
About as much accuracy in that post as in your many about upcoming droughts
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
Don't worry, I spent most of the last thread asking him this and he wouldn't answer. But I don't think he understands what a customs union actually is - along with far too many on here they just think it is some 'halfway house' between Norway and Canada.
Remaining in a CU for any period of time would be a disastrous outcome for the UK; far worse than either Remaining or No Deal. That is why agreeing this without a time limit is simply not an option.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
The Sunday Times reports the Cabinet is now split into 3 factions.
The 'Loyalist' camp is made up of Hammand, Clark and Gauke who would be happy to stay in both the Single Market and Customs Union and Brokenshire, Lewis, Bradley, Hinds and Wright who are personally loyal to May. Lidington is in both groups.
The second faction 'the Resistance' is made up of Hunt, Raab, Fox, Javid, Williamson, Gove and increasingly Hancock. They want an end date for the UK to stay in the Customs Union or a method to withdraw 'unilaterally' and if not a simpler free trade deal. David Mundell does not want any deal that undermines the Union.
The 'on the edge' group is made up of Mourdaunt, Leadsom and McVey who are closest to resigning if no fixed date to leave the Customs Union and who want Parliament to have the final say.
Davis, Boris, Hunt and Javid are being lined up as interim leaders if May goes.
Reports too Chuka Umunna and Tony Blair have been visiting Brussels and urging EU officials to keep pressing in the hope of forcing a second EU referendum.
It does seem challenging to sell a deal to the wider world when you cannot sell it to your own intimate colleagues.
If May proposes a deal and it is not approved, then those who vote against it will own the subsequent No Deal and all its consequences. Labour needs to think on that as well as the Tory loons.
Leavers are delighted to own the consequences of no deal. So can we get on with it?
TSE - You are, of course, aware that our Dom was also Chief of Staff to Dominic Grieve. What's not to like, eh? Mind you Grieve supported "DD of the SS" (Gyles Brandreth) for leader in 2005. As did Damian Green.
I am aware. I can see Raab being the great unifier as PM/leader by bringing across both Grieve and Davis.
Didn't Grieve and Green both feel honour bound in supporting Davis in 2005 because they persuaded him not to stand in 2003.
Didn't know that. Could well be, which would explain why Green in particular backed DD (and indeed was his media spokesman) rather than Cameron with whom he surely was far more ideologically sympathetic. Unlike Benn, we love personalities and sod the ishhooos.
I remember reading that a few Tory MPs after telling Davis not to stand in 2003 felt honour bound in backing David Davis even if they were more sympathetic to David Cameron.
I think a few backed David Davis in the first round and then switched to Cameron in the second round. I think Davis lost a net 5 between rounds.
Personally I think we should return to the men in grey suits choosing the leader.
Obviously the men in grey suits would be a four man group comprising yourself, David Herdson, Tissue Price, and my goodself.
Grey suits and red shoes, my dear fellow. And think of Dom in No.10. For sure, my own immediate elevation to the peerage, and your GCMG to follow after a decent but not protracted period.
Mr. Eagles, Britain did not become governed by the Dutch state after that, the institutions remained as they were. The position of king switched from the Catholic James II to the Protestant William III (and Mary co-reigned, unusually).
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
At least I am a patriot. People who support the dismemberment of their nation just because they are threatened by a foreign power are traitors and quislings.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
The Sunday Times reports the Cabinet is now split into 3 factions.
The 'Loyalist' camp is made up of Hammand, Clark and Gauke who would be happy to stay in both the Single Market and Customs Union and Brokenshire, Lewis, Bradley, Hinds and Wright who are personally loyal to May. Lidington is in both groups.
The second faction 'the Resistance' is made up of Hunt, Raab, Fox, Javid, Williamson, Gove and increasingly Hancock. They want an end date for the UK to stay in the Customs Union or a method to withdraw 'unilaterally' and if not a simpler free trade deal. David Mundell does not want any deal that undermines the Union.
The 'on the edge' group is made up of Mourdaunt, Leadsom and McVey who are closest to resigning if no fixed date to leave the Customs Union and who want Parliament to have the final say.
Davis, Boris, Hunt and Javid are being lined up as interim leaders if May goes.
Reports too Chuka Umunna and Tony Blair have been visiting Brussels and urging EU officials to keep pressing in the hope of forcing a second EU referendum.
It does seem challenging to sell a deal to the wider world when you cannot sell it to your own intimate colleagues.
If May proposes a deal and it is not approved, then those who vote against it will own the subsequent No Deal and all its consequences. Labour needs to think on that as well as the Tory loons.
Leavers are delighted to own the consequences of no deal. So can we get on with it?
You, in Australia, want no deal because it stirs your Cod Churchillian loins. Over in the UK, though, there are many Leavers who want to Leave the EU, as we will next March, but who also want to avoid falling off an economic cliff.
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Many people are expecting a boost for the Tories if a deal is agreed, but personally I don't think the public will show their gratitude. In the short term, given it will not be electoral consequences, I would expect the sullen to register their discontent and show a drop.
Indeed. The British electorate doesn't "do" gratitude - Just ask Sir Winston...
The very best the Tories can hope for is absence of punishment. They received instructions from the voter, they carried them out to the best of their ability, why should they expect "gratitude' for doing the job they're well paid (three times average earnings and up) to do?
What happens if the people decide the tories didn't do what they were instructed to by the voter?
Mrs May has some explaining to do about how these "Brexit means Brexit" red lines appear to have been dumped.
Also why, if the dire warninigs about leaving were anything like truthful (they aren't) should voters entrust a party who willingly put our countries economic future at grave risk?
The same party that stacked all the cards in its favour and still managed to not convince the public of their case?
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
Don't worry, I spent most of the last thread asking him this and he wouldn't answer. But I don't think he understands what a customs union actually is - along with far too many on here they just think it is some 'halfway house' between Norway and Canada.
Remaining in a CU for any period of time would be a disastrous outcome for the UK; far worse than either Remaining or No Deal. That is why agreeing this without a time limit is simply not an option.
Be as patronising as ever but a CU is better than Remaining and better than No Deal with all the damage the latter will do to the economy and the Union
Many people are expecting a boost for the Tories if a deal is agreed, but personally I don't think the public will show their gratitude. In the short term, given it will not be electoral consequences, I would expect the sullen to register their discontent and show a drop.
Indeed. The British electorate doesn't "do" gratitude - Just ask Sir Winston...
The very best the Tories can hope for is absence of punishment. They received instructions from the voter, they carried them out to the best of their ability, why should they expect "gratitude' for doing the job they're well paid (three times average earnings and up) to do?
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
The Sunday Times reports the Cabinet is now split into 3 factions.
The 'Loyalist' camp is made up of Hammand, Clark and Gauke who would be happy to stay in both the Single Market and Customs Union and Brokenshire, Lewis, Bradley, Hinds and Wright who are personally loyal to May. Lidington is in both groups.
The second faction 'the Resistance' is made up of Hunt, Raab, Fox, Javid, Williamson, Gove and increasingly Hancock. They want an end date for the UK to stay in the Customs Union or a method to withdraw 'unilaterally' and if not a simpler free trade deal. David Mundell does not want any deal that undermines the Union.
The 'on the edge' group is made up of Mourdaunt, Leadsom and McVey who are closest to resigning if no fixed date to leave the Customs Union and who want Parliament to have the final say.
Davis, Boris, Hunt and Javid are being lined up as interim leaders if May goes.
Reports too Chuka Umunna and Tony Blair have been visiting Brussels and urging EU officials to keep pressing in the hope of forcing a second EU referendum.
“resigning if no fixed date to leave the Customs Union and who want Parliament to have the final say”
That bit I don’t understand. Parliament would never vote to take us out the customs union, would they? If that is built in as the exit mechanism, it’s no exit mechanism. It’s not what Brexiteers should be pushing for?
Mr. Eagles, Britain did not become governed by the Dutch state after that, the institutions remained as they were. The position of king switched from the Catholic James II to the Protestant William III (and Mary co-reigned, unusually).
We became governed by a Cloggie when it was clear we couldn't govern ourselves.
Whoever is perceived as being ultimately responsible for owning "no deal" will go down in history.
And I fear not in a good way.
It may even lead to the Conservatives being out of power for a generation as they will have to face the consequences / fall-out most directly.
And people say there are no Brexit benefits.
The Tories were going to be out of power at some point anyway. If we make it to 2022 they will have been in power 12 years, being out of power for 10 or so after that would seem not that abnormal, Brexit or no. Honestly I don't think there's anything they can do to avoid being out of power for a generation, the only question is if that starts at the next election or the one after.
Against PM Corbyn with a deal no different from May's except even more aligned to the EU and also wrecking the economy at home the Tories could be 20 points ahead in a year
I think it's worth remembering that there is no final, eternal resting point in the dynamics between the UK and rEU. My view is that the uncertainty about whether/what the deal is doing damage. From a business perspective, a poor deal is better than an unknown deal.
Our departure from the EU should always been played as a long term effort, a gentle undocking, not a severing of all the hawsers.
However, whether you're a Remain Ultra or plucky Brexiteer, our relationship will evolve over time in line with the wishes of the electorate.
Whoever is perceived as being ultimately responsible for owning "no deal" will go down in history.
And I fear not in a good way.
It may even lead to the Conservatives being out of power for a generation as they will have to face the consequences / fall-out most directly.
And people say there are no Brexit benefits.
The Tories were going to be out of power at some point anyway. If we make it to 2022 they will have been in power 12 years, being out of power for 10 or so after that would seem not that abnormal, Brexit or no. Honestly I don't think there's anything they can do to avoid being out of power for a generation, the only question is if that starts at the next election or the one after.
I think the suggester implied that they would be out of power until 2047 or so.
Which if I make to 2022 means I’ll never see another Tory PM.
TARGET!!!
When people say 'for a generation' it is pretty unclear what they could mean. But people probably regard 1997-2010 as the Tories being out for a generation, or 1979-1997 for Labour.
In my darker moods I often wonder if Brexit will do the Tory Party what World War One did to the Liberal Party.
The Liberal Party was replaced by the further left Labour Party, if the Tories were replaced it would be by a further right anti EU Party in the way the Canadian Progressive Tories were replaced by the Reform Party.
Even then the Progressive Tories and Reform ultimately merged and were back in power after 13 years
TSE - You are, of course, aware that our Dom was also Chief of Staff to Dominic Grieve. What's not to like, eh? Mind you Grieve supported "DD of the SS" (Gyles Brandreth) for leader in 2005. As did Damian Green.
I am aware. I can see Raab being the great unifier as PM/leader by bringing across both Grieve and Davis.
Didn't Grieve and Green both feel honour bound in supporting Davis in 2005 because they persuaded him not to stand in 2003.
Didn't know that. Could well be, which would explain why Green in particular backed DD (and indeed was his media spokesman) rather than Cameron with whom he surely was far more ideologically sympathetic. Unlike Benn, we love personalities and sod the ishhooos.
I remember reading that a few Tory MPs after telling Davis not to stand in 2003 felt honour bound in backing David Davis even if they were more sympathetic to David Cameron.
I think a few backed David Davis in the first round and then switched to Cameron in the second round. I think Davis lost a net 5 between rounds.
Personally I think we should return to the men in grey suits choosing the leader.
Obviously the men in grey suits would be a four man group comprising yourself, David Herdson, Tissue Price, and my goodself.
Grey suits and red shoes, my dear fellow. And think of Dom in No.10. For sure, my own immediate elevation to the peerage, and your GCMG to follow after a decent but not protracted period.
I don't have any pure red shoes, I do have some red and white trainers.
Personally I think you should hold out for an Earldom and Viceroy of Scotland if when Raab becomes PM.
Would be happy with this outcome as well. Not perfect by any means but the least bad of all the options and probably the only realpolitik choice.
Suspect you will ultimately have a minority of remainers and leavers against (in terms of the public). But mainly representing more extreme opinion than the majority.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
Mr. Eagles, no, because you're confusing the apparatus of the state with individuals. The crown remained British, Parliament continued to make laws.
It's odd for you, as someone with a passing familiarity of the Second Punic War, not to comprehend and appreciate the importance of the distinction between a state and an individual. Hannibal was the greatest individual, but Carthage's rotten system could not match the (at the time) invincible Roman constitution.
The British constitution remained intact, it merely had a Dutch fellow wear the golden hat for a few years.
Under these proposals, a foreign power would dictate customs to part of UK territory and a customs barrier would be imposed within our own country. That is entirely different.
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.
Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB
Mr. Eagles, Britain did not become governed by the Dutch state after that, the institutions remained as they were. The position of king switched from the Catholic James II to the Protestant William III (and Mary co-reigned, unusually).
We became governed by a Cloggie when it was clear we couldn't govern ourselves.
A perfect analogy for Brexit.
dreadful presentation of history
We were governed by James II a french sockpuppet with intergtationist tendancies. We dumped him and continued out internationalist outlook by appointing an immigrant family to take over.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Yep, like in Australia. Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
You keep saying that. If time permits (it probably won't, but I can dream.., ) I'll have to write a thread header in specific rebuttal
Presumably this is going to be an attempt to get the meltdowns out of the way early and anchor expectations for the extent of feasible renegotiations. Fasten your seatbelts.
Whoever is perceived as being ultimately responsible for owning "no deal" will go down in history.
And I fear not in a good way.
It may even lead to the Conservatives being out of power for a generation as they will have to face the consequences / fall-out most directly.
And people say there are no Brexit benefits.
The Tories were going to be out of power at some point anyway. If we make it to 2022 they will have been in power 12 years, being out of power for 10 or so after that would seem not that abnormal, Brexit or no. Honestly I don't think there's anything they can do to avoid being out of power for a generation, the only question is if that starts at the next election or the one after.
Against PM Corbyn with a deal no different from May's except even more aligned to the EU and also wrecking the economy at home the Tories could be 20 points ahead in a year
Then you should hope May is brought down and there is a GE in which Corbyn scrapes the numbers to become PM.
Mr. Eagles, Britain did not become governed by the Dutch state after that, the institutions remained as they were. The position of king switched from the Catholic James II to the Protestant William III (and Mary co-reigned, unusually).
We became governed by a Cloggie when it was clear we couldn't govern ourselves.
A perfect analogy for Brexit.
dreadful presentation of history
We were governed by James II a french sockpuppet with intergtationist tendancies. We dumped him and continued out internationalist outlook by appointing an immigrant family to take over.
The Sunday Times reports the Cabinet is now split into 3 factions.
The 'Loyalist' camp is made up of Hammand, Clark and Gauke who would be happy to stay in both the Single Market and Customs Union and Brokenshire, Lewis, Bradley, Hinds and Wright who are personally loyal to May. Lidington is in both groups.
The second faction 'the Resistance' is made up of Hunt, Raab, Fox, Javid, Williamson, Gove and increasingly Hancock. They want an end date for the UK to stay in the Customs Union or a method to withdraw 'unilaterally' and if not a simpler free trade deal. David Mundell does not want any deal that undermines the Union.
The 'on the edge' group is made up of Mourdaunt, Leadsom and McVey who are closest to resigning if no fixed date to leave the Customs Union and who want Parliament to have the final say.
Davis, Boris, Hunt and Javid are being lined up as interim leaders if May goes.
Reports too Chuka Umunna and Tony Blair have been visiting Brussels and urging EU officials to keep pressing in the hope of forcing a second EU referendum.
It does seem challenging to sell a deal to the wider world when you cannot sell it to your own intimate colleagues.
If May proposes a deal and it is not approved, then those who vote against it will own the subsequent No Deal and all its consequences. Labour needs to think on that as well as the Tory loons.
Leavers are delighted to own the consequences of no deal. So can we get on with it?
One consequence would be not paying £39bn or so to the EU.
Mr. Eagles, Britain did not become governed by the Dutch state after that, the institutions remained as they were. The position of king switched from the Catholic James II to the Protestant William III (and Mary co-reigned, unusually).
We became governed by a Cloggie when it was clear we couldn't govern ourselves.
A perfect analogy for Brexit.
dreadful presentation of history
We were governed by James II a french sockpuppet with intergtationist tendancies. We dumped him and continued out internationalist outlook by appointing an immigrant family to take over.
Or overthrew the legitimate sovereign as appointed by God by inviting in and collaborating with an invading foreign power. Depends how you look at it.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
You've detected hitherto well disguised enthusiasm for Mrs May or any of her works in Mr Archer.....who tends to be a bit more absolutist than the pragmatic Mrs May
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.
Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB
So? It's still removing NI from the UK-wide single market. I'm surprised such a move is consistent with the principles of democratic consent laid out in the GFA.
Mr. Eagles, Britain did not become governed by the Dutch state after that, the institutions remained as they were. The position of king switched from the Catholic James II to the Protestant William III (and Mary co-reigned, unusually).
We became governed by a Cloggie when it was clear we couldn't govern ourselves.
A perfect analogy for Brexit.
dreadful presentation of history
We were governed by James II a french sockpuppet with intergtationist tendancies. We dumped him and continued out internationalist outlook by appointing an immigrant family to take over.
Spoken like a true Ulster 'Loyalist'.
were very progressive, we approve of a gay foreigner backed by the pope as monarch something you appear to struggle with
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
One of Britain’s most celebrated young linguists, a master of 15 languages and author of two books, is quitting the UK, blaming “a dangerous political atmosphere” following the Brexit vote and “the financial brutality” of living and working here.
Rawlings, who is half Greek and retains a Greek passport, will move to Barcelona
Whoever is perceived as being ultimately responsible for owning "no deal" will go down in history.
And I fear not in a good way.
It may even lead to the Conservatives being out of power for a generation as they will have to face the consequences / fall-out most directly.
And people say there are no Brexit benefits.
The Tories were going to be out of power at some point anyway. If we make it to 2022 they will have been in power 12 years, being out of power for 10 or so after that would seem not that abnormal, Brexit or no. Honestly I don't think there's anything they can do to avoid being out of power for a generation, the only question is if that starts at the next election or the one after.
Against PM Corbyn with a deal no different from May's except even more aligned to the EU and also wrecking the economy at home the Tories could be 20 points ahead in a year
Then you should hope May is brought down and there is a GE in which Corbyn scrapes the numbers to become PM.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
You've detected hitherto well disguised enthusiasm for Mrs May or any of her works in Mr Archer.....who tends to be a bit more absolutist than the pragmatic Mrs May
Easy to enjoy the luxury of absolutism when you are 10,000 miles away from the consequences.
Straw poll of members of family over Sunday dinner (four remainers, two leavers). All would be content, even if not happy, with what is being postulated as the "deal" (and general fatigue about the whole Brexit issue is at least a partial to major contributer here).
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.
Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB
So? It's still removing NI from the UK-wide single market. I'm surprised such a move is consistent with the principles of democratic consent laid out in the GFA.
Democratic consent is surely what the voters of NI want? 57.8% of NI voters want special status within the EU and to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.
47.9% would vote to join the Republic of Ireland in the event of a hard border in NI and a hard Brexit, 45.4% to stay in the UK
Would be happy with this outcome as well. Not perfect by any means but the least bad of all the options and probably the only realpolitik choice.
Suspect you will ultimately have a minority of remainers and leavers against (in terms of the public). But mainly representing more extreme opinion than the majority.
I suspect most want it simply to 'go away' - and are not too exercised over the details. Not ending Freedom of Movement would be a major 'red line' to cross, 'Foreign Courts' might be next (tho we'll still be subject to ECHR, the one most often vilified in some of the press) but once you get into A/The 'customs union', unless it can be whipped up into a plot to 'Stop Duty Free' I doubt many will bother much...and 'Trade Deals' - the Leave campaign made far too much of them and will now have to live with the (minor) consequences.
Many people are expecting a boost for the Tories if a deal is agreed, but personally I don't think the public will show their gratitude. In the short term, given it will not be electoral consequences, I would expect the sullen to register their discontent and show a drop.
Indeed. The British electorate doesn't "do" gratitude - Just ask Sir Winston...
The very best the Tories can hope for is absence of punishment. They received instructions from the voter, they carried them out to the best of their ability, why should they expect "gratitude' for doing the job they're well paid (three times average earnings and up) to do?
Are you sure, Miss Vance? They received instructions from the American government, from the Russians, from the big corporations... Indirectly, of course. That is hardly instructions from the voters. And to crown it all, for some reason unknown, the police are refusing to investigate the corruption and criminality.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
You've detected hitherto well disguised enthusiasm for Mrs May or any of her works in Mr Archer.....who tends to be a bit more absolutist than the pragmatic Mrs May
Easy to enjoy the luxury of absolutism when you are 10,000 miles away from the consequences.
Mr Archer's current geographical location tells you 'Blood & Soil' nationalists nothing about his circumstances. Perhaps he has family, property, investments or pensions in the UK and would be severely affected by an economic downturn. Do you know? If so, how?
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
do you do it with EiT ?
Why would I? He doesn’t question people’s patriotism or advocate a No Deal Brexit that will not affect his job or living standards.
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.
Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB
So? It's still removing NI from the UK-wide single market. I'm surprised such a move is consistent with the principles of democratic consent laid out in the GFA.
Democratic consent is surely what the voters of NI want? 57.8% of NI voters want special status within the EU and to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.
47.9% would vote to join the Republic of Ireland in the event of a hard border in NI and a hard Brexit, 45.4% to stay in the UK
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
do you do it with EiT ?
Why would I? He doesn’t question people’s patriotism or advocate a No Deal Brexit that will not affect his job or living standards.
you dont know how any deal will affect lviing standards
Mr. Eagles, no, because you're confusing the apparatus of the state with individuals. The crown remained British, Parliament continued to make laws.
It's odd for you, as someone with a passing familiarity of the Second Punic War, not to comprehend and appreciate the importance of the distinction between a state and an individual. Hannibal was the greatest individual, but Carthage's rotten system could not match the (at the time) invincible Roman constitution.
The British constitution remained intact, it merely had a Dutch fellow wear the golden hat for a few years.
Under these proposals, a foreign power would dictate customs to part of UK territory and a customs barrier would be imposed within our own country. That is entirely different.
William did bring an army of 40,000 men with him. It would pass the duck test for an invasion. Had James' army not melted away but instead beaten William in the field, it would be down as another example of us plucky islanders beating the foreigners.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
Going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it might look very slightly problematic, though.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
You've detected hitherto well disguised enthusiasm for Mrs May or any of her works in Mr Archer.....who tends to be a bit more absolutist than the pragmatic Mrs May
Easy to enjoy the luxury of absolutism when you are 10,000 miles away from the consequences.
Mr Archer's current geographical location tells you 'Blood & Soil' nationalists nothing about his circumstances. Perhaps he has family, property, investments or pensions in the UK and would be severely affected by an economic downturn. Do you know? If so, how?
More than anything else I do get why people feel Mr Archer's location may be relevant, and certainly I disagree with him plenty, but people seem positively obsessed about it.
Mr. Recidivist, by that logic the Mortimer and Henry Bolingbroke returns would mean 'foreign invasion' too. Neither they nor the Glorious Revolution led to foreign powers governing our affairs.
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
Don't worry, I spent most of the last thread asking him this and he wouldn't answer. But I don't think he understands what a customs union actually is - along with far too many on here they just think it is some 'halfway house' between Norway and Canada.
Remaining in a CU for any period of time would be a disastrous outcome for the UK; far worse than either Remaining or No Deal. That is why agreeing this without a time limit is simply not an option.
Which of the trade deals you intend to rip up are so bad for Britain, and where’s your evidence you can replace them with even better ones? You see the Brexiteers are now on defensive, and really do have to answer that question.
Mr. Recidivist, by that logic the Mortimer and Henry Bolingbroke returns would mean 'foreign invasion' too. Neither they nor the Glorious Revolution led to foreign powers governing our affairs.
TSE - You are, of course, aware that our Dom was also Chief of Staff to Dominic Grieve. What's not to like, eh? Mind you Grieve supported "DD of the SS" (Gyles Brandreth) for leader in 2005. As did Damian Green.
I am aware. I can see Raab being the great unifier as PM/leader by bringing across both Grieve and Davis.
Didn't Grieve and Green both feel honour bound in supporting Davis in 2005 because they persuaded him not to stand in 2003.
Didn't know that. Could well be, which would explain why Green in particular backed DD (and indeed was his media spokesman) rather than Cameron with whom he surely was far more ideologically sympathetic. Unlike Benn, we love personalities and sod the ishhooos.
I remember reading that a few Tory MPs after telling Davis not to stand in 2003 felt honour bound in backing David Davis even if they were more sympathetic to David Cameron.
I think a few backed David Davis in the first round and then switched to Cameron in the second round. I think Davis lost a net 5 between rounds.
Personally I think we should return to the men in grey suits choosing the leader.
Obviously the men in grey suits would be a four man group comprising yourself, David Herdson, Tissue Price, and my goodself.
Grey suits and red shoes, my dear fellow. And think of Dom in No.10. For sure, my own immediate elevation to the peerage, and your GCMG to follow after a decent but not protracted period.
I don't have any pure red shoes, I do have some red and white trainers.
Personally I think you should hold out for an Earldom and Viceroy of Scotland if when Raab becomes PM.
As it happens I shall be in Glasgow next weekend. I’m sure my informal ‘soundings’ will prove overwhelmingly positive.
TSE - You are, of course, aware that our Dom was also Chief of Staff to Dominic Grieve. What's not to like, eh? Mind you Grieve supported "DD of the SS" (Gyles Brandreth) for leader in 2005. As did Damian Green.
I am aware. I can see Raab being the great unifier as PM/leader by bringing across both Grieve and Davis.
Didn't Grieve and Green both feel honour bound in supporting Davis in 2005 because they persuaded him not to stand in 2003.
Didn't know that. Could well be, which would explain why Green in particular backed DD (and indeed was his media spokesman) rather than Cameron with whom he surely was far more ideologically sympathetic. Unlike Benn, we love personalities and sod the ishhooos.
I remember reading that a few Tory MPs after telling Davis not to stand in 2003 felt honour bound in backing David Davis even if they were more sympathetic to David Cameron.
I think a few backed David Davis in the first round and then switched to Cameron in the second round. I think Davis lost a net 5 between rounds.
Personally I think we should return to the men in grey suits choosing the leader.
Obviously the men in grey suits would be a four man group comprising yourself, David Herdson, Tissue Price, and my goodself.
Grey suits and red shoes, my dear fellow. And think of Dom in No.10. For sure, my own immediate elevation to the peerage, and your GCMG to follow after a decent but not protracted period.
I don't have any pure red shoes, I do have some red and white trainers.
Personally I think you should hold out for an Earldom and Viceroy of Scotland if when Raab becomes PM.
As it happens I shall be in Glasgow next weekend. I’m sure my informal ‘soundings’ will prove overwhelmingly positive.
I'm in Edinburgh on the 5th of November, I expect fireworks.
That's a terrible, terrible result for the SPD, and a perhaps better than feared one for the CSU.
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
Straw poll of members of family over Sunday dinner (four remainers, two leavers). All would be content, even if not happy, with what is being postulated as the "deal" (and general fatigue about the whole Brexit issue is at least a partial to major contributer here).
It’s hard to see how a deal that will see us leave the EU next March without falling off an economic cliff is going to be actively rejected by most voters. Most might not like it, but that is different.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Yep, like in Australia. Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
Yes - not sure when he appeared regularly or indeed prolifically on here - maybe a little after the Bojo resignation He is also a pain in the ****
That's a terrible, terrible result for the SPD, and a perhaps better than feared one for the CSU.
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
More relevantly, the germans show numbers as eg 3,5% rather than 3.5%, with commas? Madness.
Wow, the Greens truly would be surging, AFD not even in third on that.
In the summer, the AfD looked like they might get 14 or 15%, but have faded recently. I would expect them to do better in next year's European elections.
That's a terrible, terrible result for the SPD, and a perhaps better than feared one for the CSU.
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
More relevantly, the germans show numbers as eg 3,5% rather than 3.5%, with commas? Madness.
I think they use '.' for thousand separators too...
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
do you do it with EiT ?
Why would I? He doesn’t question people’s patriotism or advocate a No Deal Brexit that will not affect his job or living standards.
you dont know how any deal will affect lviing standards
nobody does
I have an opinion, as does Mr Archer. If it helps, imagine us writing “I think” or “I believe” in front of everything we write.
So this supposed deal hasn't even gone past the UK negotiators yet?
I think we're past the point of pretending the British government is expected to have any real say in the withdrawal agreement.
Things are playing out the way they were always going to. A deal has been reached, all that remains is for somebody to inform the British what it will be.
That's a terrible, terrible result for the SPD, and a perhaps better than feared one for the CSU.
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
More relevantly, the germans show numbers as eg 3,5% rather than 3.5%, with commas? Madness.
The same in Spanish - maybe a European thing and the real reason why so many voted Leave?
That's a terrible, terrible result for the SPD, and a perhaps better than feared one for the CSU.
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
The focus on the AfD in Germany seems to be obscuring an even bigger story: the rise of the Greens.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
"Blood & Soil" nationalists have been popping up in the strangest places.....
Yep, like in Australia. Mr Archer believes anyone backing May’s deal is not a true patriot.
Yes - not sure when he appeared regularly or indeed prolifically on here - maybe a little after the Bojo resignation He is also a pain in the ****
I appeared here before the referendum.
People are entitled to argue for soft Brexit, Remain, Norway, second referendum or whatever. However, if May has agreed with a foreign power for the potentially permanent economic partition of the UK, she is a traitor, and I absolutely hold the view that no patriot would support this.
If there is a Deal agreed and passed by Parliament then May will still be there, if not then Corbyn could well be PM this time next year and the 2019 Tory Party Conference will be addressed not by the PM but by the Leader of the Opposition
Could you, as a Conservative and a Unionist, support a deal which keeps the CU for the UK and the SM for Northern Ireland?
The CU for the UK is preferred by most voters to No Deal and the CU and SM in NI is preferred by most NI voters to a hard border, if a hard border in NI that will be a boost to Nationalists and if No Deal for the UK that will be a huge boost to the SNP and the Yes to Scottish independence campaign posing a far greater threat to the UK
Aren't NI currently in a single market with the rest of the UK? Surely they'd have to leave that in order to stay in one with the EU.
Given the whole UK would be in the Customs Union there would still be no tariffs between NI and GB
So? It's still removing NI from the UK-wide single market. I'm surprised such a move is consistent with the principles of democratic consent laid out in the GFA.
Democratic consent is surely what the voters of NI want? 57.8% of NI voters want special status within the EU and to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.
47.9% would vote to join the Republic of Ireland in the event of a hard border in NI and a hard Brexit, 45.4% to stay in the UK
That's a terrible, terrible result for the SPD, and a perhaps better than feared one for the CSU.
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
More relevantly, the germans show numbers as eg 3,5% rather than 3.5%, with commas? Madness.
Is that a serious point (genuine question)? They've been doing that for decades.
Extraordinary if true. That will be vassal state +++++++++++++++.
I think Theresa is the finest Prime Minister this country has ever had it she pulls this off.
What is extraordinary is that PB seems to be full of people who genuinely support the PM entering into an agreement that involves the separation of the UK by a foreign power. The determination to see the country humiliated just so that they can feel that Brexit will not happen absolutely sickens me.
Fortunately, there are real patriots who will stop this from happening.
Meanwhile over in Australia your job, your public services and your standard of living will be entirely unaffected by a No Deal outcome. Lucky you and your entirely cost-free patriotism.
when you retire to Spain remember you cant comment anymore
I am hoping to retire to the Dorset seaside. I have no problem in people commenting from anywhere.
actually it appears you do otherwise why do you keep brining it up ?
Why shouldn’t I? I am merely stating a fact. Why would that be a problem? Observing someone has little to lose from a position they advocate is hardly an unusual event on here.
Going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it might look very slightly problematic, though.
Why? Sounds to me like you are trying to shut me down. It won’t work.
Comments
https://twitter.com/NSoames/status/1051483314589196288
Remaining in a CU for any period of time would be a disastrous outcome for the UK; far worse than either Remaining or No Deal. That is why agreeing this without a time limit is simply not an option.
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1051490551562944512
Mrs May has some explaining to do about how these "Brexit means Brexit" red lines appear to have been dumped.
Also why, if the dire warninigs about leaving were anything like truthful (they aren't) should voters entrust a party who willingly put our countries economic future at grave risk?
The same party that stacked all the cards in its favour and still managed to not convince the public of their case?
However you look it they are fecknig useless.
Then I look at Labour
What the feck have we done to deserve this?
That bit I don’t understand. Parliament would never vote to take us out the customs union, would they? If that is built in as the exit mechanism, it’s no exit mechanism. It’s not what Brexiteers should be pushing for?
A perfect analogy for Brexit.
The Just World hypothesis is a nice idea that doesn't survive contact with reality. (Bit like socialism).
Our departure from the EU should always been played as a long term effort, a gentle undocking, not a severing of all the hawsers.
However, whether you're a Remain Ultra or plucky Brexiteer, our relationship will evolve over time in line with the wishes of the electorate.
Even then the Progressive Tories and Reform ultimately merged and were back in power after 13 years
Personally I think you should hold out for an Earldom and Viceroy of Scotland if when Raab becomes PM.
Suspect you will ultimately have a minority of remainers and leavers against (in terms of the public). But mainly representing more extreme opinion than the majority.
It's odd for you, as someone with a passing familiarity of the Second Punic War, not to comprehend and appreciate the importance of the distinction between a state and an individual. Hannibal was the greatest individual, but Carthage's rotten system could not match the (at the time) invincible Roman constitution.
The British constitution remained intact, it merely had a Dutch fellow wear the golden hat for a few years.
Under these proposals, a foreign power would dictate customs to part of UK territory and a customs barrier would be imposed within our own country. That is entirely different.
We were governed by James II a french sockpuppet with intergtationist tendancies. We dumped him and continued out internationalist outlook by appointing an immigrant family to take over.
Oh, and taking back control.
Perhaps he thinks he can mediate between the local Catalans and the Madrid government.
47.9% would vote to join the Republic of Ireland in the event of a hard border in NI and a hard Brexit, 45.4% to stay in the UK
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/northern-ireland-support-join-irish-republic-eu-hard-brexit-poll-lucidtalk-a8098531.html
"Scottish Secretary David Mundell and Scots Tory leader Ruth Davidson say they will not accept Northern Ireland being treated differently."
May can not afford to lose the Scottish Conservative MP votes as well as the DUP MP votes.
nobody does
Bavarian election result - first forecast
https://wahltool.zdf.de/wahlergebnisse/2018-10-14-LT-DE-BY.html?i=1
Grrens -19%
SPD - 9.5%
AfD - 11%
FW - 11.5%
FDP 5%
CSU get a kicking SPD heading for oblivion
The diplomats who said a deal had been struck were cautious, and one expressed particular concerns about how the package would be received in the U.K.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-divorce-deal-reached/
The FDP get to be on tenterhooks to see whether they make the 5% cut. And a very good result for the Greens. AfD performs reasonably well, but the CSU's (and FW's) innate conservatism makes it hard for them to make much more ground.
Then again, that didn't work with Cameron's negotiations.
But, yes, a very good result for them Grunes.
1.000.000,00
Things are playing out the way they were always going to. A deal has been reached, all that remains is for somebody to inform the British what it will be.
People are entitled to argue for soft Brexit, Remain, Norway, second referendum or whatever. However, if May has agreed with a foreign power for the potentially permanent economic partition of the UK, she is a traitor, and I absolutely hold the view that no patriot would support this.