politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s Brexit speech isn’t going to endear him to large part
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A fair proportion of the public chose PPI - whose fault was that?kle4 said:
No they didn't. They didn't create the public desire to leave that built and built to the point they felt they needed to give us a choice. The main party wanted us to make a different choice, but people from across the spectrum said otherwise.Benpointer said:
That's precisely what they did do!kle4 said:
Never said they would. The Tories are in office, and have handled it badly due to party infighting, so will pay the price. But they didn't start it.Benpointer said:
The Tories mis-framed the referendum, failed to plan for a Leave vote, pissed about for 2 years arguing amongst themselves and have made an absolute horlicks of negotiating our exit.kle4 said:
It was the public who voted for it, and 52% of the voting electorate are not tories. Tories didn't create that 52%, they're just the biggest bunch in it.grabcocque said:Thanks to Tory psychosis about Europe, we're now heading full steam towards a hard left Labour government and no EU free market and competition rules to restrain them.
So thanks for that.
I don't think you'll find the electorate blaming themselves!
To pretend the tories created the Brexit push is to give them too much influence. They opened a door, but they didn't make it and we chose, against advice, to walk through. While the Gov will of course be blamed for bad implementation, the public chose Brexit, not the tories.0 -
Allying with Hezbollah, the IRA, Hamas and Putin is completely off the scale crazy.Recidivist said:Anyone who is surprised by this speech from Corbyn doesn't know what Labour's left is actually all about. The looney left/hard left stereotype is pretty much the creation of the right wing tabloids. I'd personally pick the Blairite version of Labour given the choice, but Corbyn's approach isn't off the scale crazy as it often portrayed.
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Time for the classic 'Would Noah forgive someone for the same thing if they were on the right/woukd his critics be mad at ome of their own saying it' test.SeanT said:
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.grabcocque said:
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1021436636750598144
Personally, I don't think saying stupid, offensive things should see someone be an outcast forevermore. And you can only apologise so much. Woukd need to consider case by case.0 -
The ERG won't even be able to get one of its own to the final round let alone win the members' ballot. They will back whichever candidate is most Leave-y.TOPPING said:@MaxPB I think your four Tory MPs increases dramatically depending upon what power the brex-o-loons are able to grab.
A Mogg or even Boris takeover means it's all up for grabs.0 -
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.0 -
In a world which has never been more uncertain, the absolute certainty of posters here on future political outcomes strikes a reassuring note. One can't help thinking of the Bourbons: they learn nothing but forget nothing.
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I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).SeanT said:
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.grabcocque said:
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1021436636750598144
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.0 -
I don't know, it's a stupid comparison.Benpointer said:
A fair proportion of the public chose PPI - whose fault was that?kle4 said:
No they didn't. They didn't create the public desire to leave that built and built to the point they felt they needed to give us a choice. The main party wanted us to make a different choice, but people from across the spectrum said otherwise.Benpointer said:
That's precisely what they did do!kle4 said:
Never said they would. The Tories are in office, and have handled it badly due to party infighting, so will pay the price. But they didn't start it.Benpointer said:
The Tories mis-framed the referendum, failed to plan for a Leave vote, pissed about for 2 years arguing amongst themselves and have made an absolute horlicks of negotiating our exit.kle4 said:
It was the public who voted for it, and 52% of the voting electorate are not tories. Tories didn't create that 52%, they're just the biggest bunch in it.grabcocque said:Thanks to Tory psychosis about Europe, we're now heading full steam towards a hard left Labour government and no EU free market and competition rules to restrain them.
So thanks for that.
I don't think you'll find the electorate blaming themselves!
To pretend the tories created the Brexit push is to give them too much influence. They opened a door, but they didn't make it and we chose, against advice, to walk through. While the Gov will of course be blamed for bad implementation, the public chose Brexit, not the tories.
I'm not saying the tories, as government, don't deserve to take the hit for handling this all badly. But to pretend they created the whole situation ascribes more power and control to them than they have, and is just pretending there's a sole villain. They rid a wave that existed, and will now be drowned by it.0 -
That's grounds for him losing his livelihood?surby said:
By being a pillock ?RobD said:
What did he do to deserve that?surby said:
Why ? He deserved everything.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/0 -
Starmer says there was no mention of Northern Ireland in Raab’s statement. He says that is a gaping hole.
He says Raab is now threatening to withdrawal payments from the EU. But Philip Hammond, the chancellor, said that was not a credible position. The UK was a country that pays its debts, Hammond said.
Starmer asks which position is the goverment’s - Raab’s or Hammond’s?
- The Guardian
On point, I don't think the EU side ever committed that there would be a FTA after the UK leaves. It is Britain which always assumed that there will be one.0 -
Most of them voted to trigger it, it hasn't prevented plenty who did, tory and labour, from being called remainers still.Danny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.0 -
Very good!grabcocque said:0 -
When did the SNP split , big news?????? Not apparent up here at all , hav eyou been down the pub.ydoethur said:
Well, they are split. So are Labour. So are the SNP. The only major party in Parliament that isn't in a complete muddle are the Greens, and they're so off the wall nobody would be able to tell if they were. But there is no sign of the government collapsing at this stage although May will surely not make it much past Christmas.kle4 said:
Except an early GE probably means either the Tories are split, or more likely simply in chaotic free fall. Corbyn has a much easier time of it then.ydoethur said:
They might think, 'better a Brexit under a Corbyn government constrained by the Liberal Democrats.'kle4 said:
And why, this time, woukd people think differently? Because of a speech? The tories will advertise Corbyn is no Remainer as well?ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
.
I should think most remainers aren't going anywhere. Better Brexit under Corbyn than may I woukd think.
Which would be disastrous for Labour. A few hundred votes vanishing in the wrong seats would see the Conservatives regain a majority.
That's why I think this clarification is made on the assumption there will not be an election. If there is, he's given a hostage to fortune now.0 -
Are there restrictions on him from finding work ? He is not getting work because people do not want to employ him. Whose fault is that ?RobD said:
That's grounds for him losing his livelihood?surby said:
By being a pillock ?RobD said:
What did he do to deserve that?surby said:
Why ? He deserved everything.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/0 -
Afternoon all
Presumably all those "Freedom Day" parties pencilled in for 29/3/19 will have to be postponed until 31/12/20 when we might actually possibly perhaps be free.
On any "new party" 2/3 of those who signed up to the SDP in its first week had never been in ANY political party. It's not just about "defectors" it's about energising new activists and members to come into politics which must be a positive thing.
Interesting responses to Corbyn's speech - I'm a little unclear whether he is opposed to UK manufacturing jobs being carried out by foreign labour in the UK or manufacturing jobs going to cheaper foreign factories. It's the old argument of quality over cost.0 -
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred.Nigelb said:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).SeanT said:
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.grabcocque said:
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1021436636750598144
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
But it doesn't matter, because they've got attention.0 -
Well, yes, but I just find the idea weird that there are Remain voters out there who would be sanguine about him voting to formally start Brexit negotiations, yet would be horribly offended by his comparatively minor Brexit proposals today.kle4 said:
Most of them voted to trigger it, it hasn't prevented plenty who did, tory and labour, from being called remainers still.Danny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
It's almost as if the public isn't as obsessed by Brexit as the political commentariat is.0 -
cf Boris Johnson.JosiasJessop said:
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred.Nigelb said:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).SeanT said:
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.grabcocque said:
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1021436636750598144
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
But it doesn't matter, because they've got attention.0 -
There is always another hand - but if not in full possession of the facts, I favour the biblical injunction 'judge not, lest ye be judged'.JosiasJessop said:
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred....Nigelb said:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).SeanT said:
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.grabcocque said:
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1021436636750598144
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
Anyway, got things to do.0 -
Sadly, not yet, although I am hoping to ferment the turnips you have obligingly thrown at me to make a potent wine so the world looks sane again.malcolmg said:
When did the SNP split , big news?????? Not apparent up here at all , hav eyou been down the pub.ydoethur said:
Well, they are split. So are Labour. So are the SNP. The only major party in Parliament that isn't in a complete muddle are the Greens, and they're so off the wall nobody would be able to tell if they were. But there is no sign of the government collapsing at this stage although May will surely not make it much past Christmas.kle4 said:
Except an early GE probably means either the Tories are split, or more likely simply in chaotic free fall. Corbyn has a much easier time of it then.ydoethur said:
They might think, 'better a Brexit under a Corbyn government constrained by the Liberal Democrats.'kle4 said:
And why, this time, woukd people think differently? Because of a speech? The tories will advertise Corbyn is no Remainer as well?ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
.
I should think most remainers aren't going anywhere. Better Brexit under Corbyn than may I woukd think.
Which would be disastrous for Labour. A few hundred votes vanishing in the wrong seats would see the Conservatives regain a majority.
That's why I think this clarification is made on the assumption there will not be an election. If there is, he's given a hostage to fortune now.
I think you will find the SNP also have many positions on Brexit - as I recall Sillars is a sceptic - and there is some evidence hat their voters have many views as well:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/07/brexit-has-created-new-divide-snp-study-finds-ahead-party-conference/
Their splits are of course much less serious and less public than those in the Tories or even Labour. But they're there all right.0 -
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.SeanT said:
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etcDanny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.0 -
O/T
Henry James on London. Still true today IMO:
“It is difficult to speak adequately or justly of London. It is not a pleasant place; it is not agreeable, or cheerful, or easy, or exempt from reproach. It is only magnificent. You can draw up a tremendous list of reasons why it should be insupportable. The fogs, the smoke, the dirt, the darkness, the wet, the distances, the ugliness, the brutal size of the place, the horrible numerosity of society, the manner in which this senseless bigness is fatal to amenity, to convenience, to conversation, to good manners – all this and much more you may expatiate upon. You may call it dreary, heavy, stupid, dull, inhuman, vulgar at heart and tiresome in form. [...] But these are occasional moods; and for one who takes it as I take it, London is on the whole the most possible form of life. [...] It is the biggest aggregation of human life – the most complete compendium of the world.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/709535-it-is-difficult-to-speak-adequately-or-justly-of-london0 -
I think that your average Remain supporter in 2017 could see that the Lib Dems were still in a coma following their traumatic experience of Coalition, and that a Leave supporting Corbyn was the only means by which they could prevent Theresa May from winning a landslide majority to "crush the saboteurs".Danny565 said:
Well, yes, but I just find the idea weird that there are Remain voters out there who would be sanguine about him voting to formally start Brexit negotiations, yet would be horribly offended by his comparatively minor Brexit proposals today.kle4 said:
Most of them voted to trigger it, it hasn't prevented plenty who did, tory and labour, from being called remainers still.Danny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
It's almost as if the public isn't as obsessed by Brexit as the political commentariat is.
A 10% swing from Labour to the Lib Dems on 2017 (using Electoral Calculus) would give the Tories a majority of 72 (not quite a landslide, but more than handy) and the true EU believer Lib Dems the grand total of 20 seats.
EDIT: My point being that it's conceivable that many Remain voters supported Corbyn in 2017 only for a fairly narrow purpose, and if that purpose is no longer relevant, then their support also ceases.0 -
Sillars hasn't stood for elected office for 26 years and it's unclear whether he's even a member of the SNP nowadays. In other news, Pete Best may have opinions on The Beatles' oeuvre.ydoethur said:
Sadly, not yet, although I am hoping to ferment the turnips you have obligingly thrown at me to make a potent wine so the world looks sane again.
I think you will find the SNP also have many positions on Brexit - as I recall Sillars is a sceptic - and there is some evidence hat their voters have many views as well:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/07/brexit-has-created-new-divide-snp-study-finds-ahead-party-conference/
Their splits are of course much less serious and less public than those in the Tories or even Labour. But they're there all right.0 -
* * HOSTAGE TO FORTUNE ALERT * *
Corbyn said "The next Labour government will bring contracts back in-house, ending the racket of outsourcing that has turned our public services into a cash cow for the few. And we will use the huge weight of the government’s purchasing power to support our workers and industries."
Maybe he should have words with Gordon Brown. PFI, etc.....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/url-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-economic-labour-party-cheap-labour-migrants-eu-a8460696.html0 -
Has Raab been demoted ?williamglenn said:0 -
He’s now the Minister for Educating The Public About No Deal.surby said:
Has Raab been demoted ?williamglenn said:0 -
0
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Just in case he was labouring under the misapprehension his input was required, May is making it absolutely sure that Raab knows that it is not.surby said:
Has Raab been demoted ?williamglenn said:
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Assuming direct control!williamglenn said:twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1021753031518564352?s=21
0 -
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.rottenborough said:
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.SeanT said:
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etcDanny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
0 -
More like giving total control to Remainer Robbins. Now I know for sure that we'll get a completely crap deal with Chequers watered down even further and not possible to pass through Parliament. Robbins is no more than an EU stooge who will do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the EU.RobD said:
Assuming direct control!williamglenn said:twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1021753031518564352?s=21
0 -
Wow. Sounds as if Theresa is sending in a Cabinet Office task force to oversee the DExEU. Presumably DD knew it was an embarrassing fiasco and so quit in shame.williamglenn said:0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
I dislike this damned humidity.0 -
There are also those who whilst preferring to Remain accept Brexit, but prefer the Left Wing Brexit to the Right Wing one. Given a choice of a bonfire of workers and consumer protections, ripping up environmental standards and hostility to human rights, or choosing a Corbynite Brexit, then I am with the latter.SouthamObserver said:
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.rottenborough said:
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.SeanT said:
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etcDanny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.surby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.0 -
Surely Minister for Workhouses ...williamglenn said:
He’s now the Minister for Educating The Public About No Deal.surby said:
Has Raab been demoted ?williamglenn said:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-tory-housing-minister-facebook-group-workhouses-council-housing-a8213846.html0 -
For those who can bear to tear themselves away from the Brexit Groundhog Day, there' a nice political scandal across the channel.
macron's bodyguard beat the crap out of a protester and got caught doing it. Macron spun and wibbled to pretend nothing had happened but the denial has now left him looking shifty and back pedalling faster then Chris Froome facing a bag of urine.
The August recess cant come quickly enough.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2018/07/24/25001-20180724ARTFIG00138-affaire-benalla-lr-va-deposer-une-motion-de-censure.php0 -
Mr. Brooke, sacre bleu!
I remember hearing the first part of that, but not the rest.0 -
May regressing to type.
She was always a micro-manager and, presumably after seeing Raab jet off determined to make his mark on Brexit, has now reverted to being a micro-manager who will not brook such independence of spirit.0 -
Oh, indeed. But by the time someone is on their third or fourth semi-apology, and keeps on saying stuff designed to outrage, then perhaps it becomes time to judge.Nigelb said:
There is always another hand - but if not in full possession of the facts, I favour the biblical injunction 'judge not, lest ye be judged'.JosiasJessop said:
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred....Nigelb said:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).SeanT said:
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.grabcocque said:
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1021436636750598144
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
Anyway, got things to do.0 -
It's been rumbling on for nearly a week now much like the Ozil racism row in Germany.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Brooke, sacre bleu!
I remember hearing the first part of that, but not the rest.
There is a world outside Brexit :-)0 -
Feels like the start of May's backpedalling in preparation so she can sign anything Barnier sticks in front of her nose.Stark_Dawning said:
Wow. Sounds as if Theresa is sending in a Cabinet Office task force to oversee the DExEU. Presumably DD knew it was an embarrassing fiasco and so quit in shame.williamglenn said:0 -
I thought this was already the case. And all the better for all the cabinet to later put all blame on May.williamglenn said:0 -
"The global slump in press freedom
Illiberal regimes are clamping down on independent media across the world"
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/23/the-global-slump-in-press-freedom0 -
Still, it gives the repairers another 18 months to get Big Ben working again.0
-
Both sound like meaningless soundbites . And presumably each would label the others' as something other than you've described.Foxy said:
There are also those who whilst preferring to Remain accept Brexit, but prefer the Left Wing Brexit to the Right Wing one. Given a choice of a bonfire of workers and consumer protections, ripping up environmental standards and hostility to human rights, or choosing a Corbynite Brexit, then I am with the latter.SouthamObserver said:
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.rottenborough said:
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.SeanT said:
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etcDanny565 said:
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaversurby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.0 -
"In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard."
This is very true Mr Observer. In our rather sad and negative system the party that demonstrates it is the least worse option normally does win. However, many will think that while the Tories have trashed their best card (the economy) by allowing their little Englander wing to wag the dog, their trashing of the economy is quite possibly likely to be less worse than a Comrade Corbyn government that offers no prospects of neutering the Brexit monster while simultaneously rogering the economy with a very large red-flagged flagpole0 -
Now I know you are kidding.Alanbrooke said:
It's been rumbling on for nearly a week now much like the Ozil racism row in Germany.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Brooke, sacre bleu!
I remember hearing the first part of that, but not the rest.
There is a world outside Brexit :-)0 -
-
Robbins works for Theresa May.MaxPB said:
More like giving total control to Remainer Robbins. Now I know for sure that we'll get a completely crap deal with Chequers watered down even further and not possible to pass through Parliament. Robbins is no more than an EU stooge who will do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the EU.RobD said:
Assuming direct control!williamglenn said:twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1021753031518564352?s=21
If you don't like what he is doing - the fault lies with Theresa.0 -
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?0 -
That sounds quite a metaphor. I wonder which side of the Brexit devide will try and claim the epithet "The Repairers"Bromptonaut said:Still, it gives the repairers another 18 months to get Big Ben working again.
0 -
May has politically owned Brexit since her Mansion House speech. Only now is she making sure she is at the head table in negotiations.
This also means there will be less time for No. 10 to spend on other things, including the normal firefighting on issues arising in the general course of events.
This increases the risk of things going wrong...0 -
Mr. JS, the far left here keep banging on about clamping down on the print media in a way that hasn't been the case since the 17th century.
Mr. Sandpit, in more shrieking censorious news, there's a new bedwetting campaign to get Farage thrown out of LBC by pressurising sponsors.
It's led by Rik, the people's poet, who can see the far right (if the left think Farage is as bad as it gets I suspect they're in for a bloody rude awakening) whether it exists or not, but seems strangely reluctant to criticise the far left sitting on Labour's front bench.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/10217120160027402250 -
So Raab’s just a minister of state then?
Downgrade his salary accordingly.
At the weekend he admitted he had no eye for detail. Like a lot of Brexiteers he’s good at the fantasy of Brexit not the reality of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/los_fisher/status/1020947108365467648?s=21
That said Theresa micro managing always turns out well.
0 -
I don't disagree with that, it's why I want her gone.rkrkrk said:
Robbins works for Theresa May.MaxPB said:
More like giving total control to Remainer Robbins. Now I know for sure that we'll get a completely crap deal with Chequers watered down even further and not possible to pass through Parliament. Robbins is no more than an EU stooge who will do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the EU.RobD said:
Assuming direct control!williamglenn said:twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/1021753031518564352?s=21
If you don't like what he is doing - the fault lies with Theresa.0 -
We could still choose to not break things, just about. We haven’t left yet.Nigel_Foremain said:
That sounds quite a metaphor. I wonder which side of the Brexit devide will try and claim the epithet "The Repairers"Bromptonaut said:Still, it gives the repairers another 18 months to get Big Ben working again.
0 -
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.0 -
Who are your four potential defectors? Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston...MaxPB said:
The ERG won't even be able to get one of its own to the final round let alone win the members' ballot. They will back whichever candidate is most Leave-y.TOPPING said:@MaxPB I think your four Tory MPs increases dramatically depending upon what power the brex-o-loons are able to grab.
A Mogg or even Boris takeover means it's all up for grabs.0 -
No wonder David-no-notes-Davis describes him as "his boy", which would be somewhat amusing were it not so sadTheScreamingEagles said:So Raab’s just a minister of state then?
Downgrade his salary accordingly.
At the weekend he admitted he had no eye for detail. Like a lot of Brexiteers he’s good at the fantasy of Brexit not the reality of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/los_fisher/status/1020947108365467648?s=21
That said Theresa micro managing always turns out well.0 -
I am shocked that Corbyn wants to undo one of Mrs Thatcher’s finest achievements.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.
0 -
kle4 said:
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.Foxy said:
Both sound like meaningless soundbites . And presumably each would label the others' as something other than you've described.SouthamObserver said:
There are also those who whilst preferring to Remain accept Brexit, but prefer the Left Wing Brexit to the Right Wing one. Given a choice of a bonfire of workers and consumer protections, ripping up environmental standards and hostility to human rights, or choosing a Corbynite Brexit, then I am with the latter.rottenborough said:
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.SeanT said:
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.Danny565 said:
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.ydoethur said:
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaversurby said:
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.Theuniondivvie said:Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.0 -
Quite. Young called people "functionally illiterate troglodytes with a mental age of six", "small, vaguely deformed undergraduates replete with acne and anoraks", "a bunch of lesbians [who] looked like German shot-putters", etc. etc.TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.0 -
Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way the Leavers fell into our trap? Ha! Ha!TheScreamingEagles said:
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?Foxy said:Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
0 -
I almost felt sad for him, but then I thought "right wing journo complains of being misquoted, quoted out of context and metaphorically lynched ...... hmmm!"TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.0 -
Soubry, Heidi Allen, Neill and possibly Stephen Hammmond. The latter two are in London and would struggle to keep their majorities under a Tory banner so may jump ship and see if they can do it on a pro-remain ticket. The other two have been sent loopy by Brexit.Sandpit said:
Who are your four potential defectors? Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston...MaxPB said:
The ERG won't even be able to get one of its own to the final round let alone win the members' ballot. They will back whichever candidate is most Leave-y.TOPPING said:@MaxPB I think your four Tory MPs increases dramatically depending upon what power the brex-o-loons are able to grab.
A Mogg or even Boris takeover means it's all up for grabs.0 -
Mr Dancer, I'd forgotten how much I hate space travel hot weather!Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
I dislike this damned humidity.0 -
Nothing to do with misquoted or out of context...the tweets are there for everyone to see. And I don't mean the eugenics thing, that seemed fine as he describes it. I mean the insulting misogynist tweets and comments.Nigel_Foremain said:
I almost felt sad for him, but then I thought "right wing journo complains of being misquoted, quoted out of context and metaphorically lynched ...... hmmm!"TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
Somewhere, who knows how deep in his mind, those sentiments persist.0 -
Absolutely, Mr Eagles. Those Tory patriots from the ERG that wish to trash Mrs T's finest legacy and give support and succour to the foreign policy agenda of Vladimir Putin. Her handbag must be rotating in her grave faster than god's particle in a CERN acceleratorTheScreamingEagles said:I am shocked that Corbyn wants to undo one of Mrs Thatcher’s finest achievements.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.0 -
The Corbynista in me reckons the EU is a right-wing corporatist plot to shaft the working man and woman.TheScreamingEagles said:I am shocked that Corbyn wants to undo one of Mrs Thatcher’s finest achievements.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.0 -
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.williamglenn said:
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?Foxy said:Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
0 -
And the Tory Gvt made the mistake of allowing UKIP and their activists pressure them into lodging the A50 notice before agreeing our plan and without taking the opportunity to have some informal discussions with other EU governments. Triggering A50 reduced our leverage and gave up valuable time in which we could have started to get our act together.Benpointer said:
The Tories mis-framed the referendum, failed to plan for a Leave vote, pissed about for 2 years arguing amongst themselves and have made an absolute horlicks of negotiating our exit.kle4 said:
It was the public who voted for it, and 52% of the voting electorate are not tories. Tories didn't create that 52%, they're just the biggest bunch in it.grabcocque said:Thanks to Tory psychosis about Europe, we're now heading full steam towards a hard left Labour government and no EU free market and competition rules to restrain them.
So thanks for that.
I don't think you'll find the electorate blaming themselves!0 -
wussTOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.0 -
Dr. Prasannan, I never forget. Damned weather.0
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In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?Foxy said:
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.williamglenn said:
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?Foxy said:Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
0 -
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.TheScreamingEagles said:
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
Toby Young on the outrage mob: "In today’s topsy-turvy world, virtue signaling trumps being virtuous." How true.0
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Oddly enough, as others have said, Corbyn's vision of a "Workers' Brexit" will have plenty of followers and sounds superficially attractive. It speaks directly to a constituency which May has tried to charm since 2016 - the "working man".TheScreamingEagles said:I am shocked that Corbyn wants to undo one of Mrs Thatcher’s finest achievements.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.
If you voted LEAVE to try to slow or halt globalisation, Corbyn is talking to you.
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Prevent that option before it came about?williamglenn said:
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?Foxy said:
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.williamglenn said:
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?Foxy said:Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
0 -
He deserves every bit he has got.El_Capitano said:
Quite. Young called people "functionally illiterate troglodytes with a mental age of six", "small, vaguely deformed undergraduates replete with acne and anoraks", "a bunch of lesbians [who] looked like German shot-putters", etc. etc.TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.0 -
I'm only thinking of your well-being, Alan, as I know what a sensitive soul you are.Alanbrooke said:
wussTOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.0 -
A few dodgy Tweets from years ago is insignificant, when compared to his more recent several years’ experience running schools and an educational charity.TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.0 -
How?philiph said:
Prevent that option before it came about?williamglenn said:
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?Foxy said:
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.williamglenn said:
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?Foxy said:Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
0 -
The drought is more likely to lead to food shortages than any form of Brexit.Stark_Dawning said:
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.TheScreamingEagles said:
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
TOPPING said:
I'm only thinking of your well-being, Alan, as I know what a sensitive soul you are.Alanbrooke said:
wussTOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
Ever since England lost religion weve gone from God botherers to just plain botherers
Berlusconi for PM
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In his cynical topsy-turvy world he clearly thinks that being offensive is a virtue. It isn't. Sorry if I am "virtue signalling"geoffw said:Toby Young on the outrage mob: "In today’s topsy-turvy world, virtue signaling trumps being virtuous." How true.
0 -
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1021774197910056961Norm said:The drought is more likely to lead to food shortages than any form of Brexit.
0 -
He spends a lot of time in that article defending himself against charges of his choosing. He was considered unsuitable principally because of his crude sexist and racist comments, to which his only defence appears to be that he was drunk. Drink loosens inhibitions and may have prompted him to reveal his real attitudes, which isn't much of a defence.Sandpit said:
A few dodgy Tweets from years ago is insignificant, when compared to his more recent several years’ experience running schools and an educational charity.TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.0 -
I think that what will happen is that Conservative Party members, UKIP members, anti-EU Labour party members like Jeremy Corbyn, members of various anti-EU organisations will all have special lavishly-stocked shops, which are reserved for them. People who can prove they voted Leave will be given ration books, whereas Remain voters will have to fend for themselves.Stark_Dawning said:
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.TheScreamingEagles said:
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
Hes right about this being mccarthyism. People should be able to say what they want. They should be able to apologise for things they said in the past.surby said:
He deserves every bit he has got.El_Capitano said:
Quite. Young called people "functionally illiterate troglodytes with a mental age of six", "small, vaguely deformed undergraduates replete with acne and anoraks", "a bunch of lesbians [who] looked like German shot-putters", etc. etc.ñTOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
The alt liberal/left tyranny is worse than the right wing tyranny, which is pretty benign by comparison.
0 -
on that basis most of our politicians past and present should be sectioned. apparently we must live in a society free from human flaws.IanB2 said:
He spends a lot of time in that article defending himself against charges of his choosing. He was considered unsuitable principally because of his crude sexist and racist comments, to which his only defence appears to be that he was drunk. Drink loosens inhibitions and may have prompted him to reveal his real attitudes, which isn't much of a defence.Sandpit said:
A few dodgy Tweets from years ago is insignificant, when compared to his more recent several years’ experience running schools and an educational charity.TOPPING said:
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.Sandpit said:
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.SeanT said:Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
https://quillette.com/2018/07/23/the-public-humiliation-diet/
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
0 -
He wouldn't permit something as bourgeois as a referendum. he would set up a People's Commissariat for Brexit that would interpret "will of the people" in a different but no more or no-less honest way than that is currently being extrapolated by the ERGphiliph said:
Prevent that option before it came about?williamglenn said:
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?Foxy said:
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.williamglenn said:
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?Foxy said:Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
0 -
He has also placed on standby at 30mins notice to move a fleet of C-130 Hercs to bring us strawberries direct from the fields of Spain straight to the Tescos on Bourne High Street.Stark_Dawning said:
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.TheScreamingEagles said:
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
With @another_richard acting as our man from Del Monte to check they meet the standards of our native crop.TOPPING said:
He has also placed on standby at 30mins notice to move a fleet of C-130 Hercs to bring us strawberries direct from the fields of Spain straight to the Tescos on Bourne High Street.Stark_Dawning said:
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.TheScreamingEagles said:
Project Fear from Leavers.williamglenn said:
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.0 -
Done as the House rises for the summer.....williamglenn said:
A Remainer is in sole charge of Brexit. What could possibly go wrong?0
This discussion has been closed.